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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Most "Serge-Like" Euro filter out there?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules  
Author Most "Serge-Like" Euro filter out there?
Waz
Seems like a stupid thread I know, since most serge modules can do a billion things all at once. But I really like the clean and crisp sound of the variable Q VCF that is in the creature. Are there any euro modules that even compare to it?
Entrainer
Not really.

But I'd use a MMF-1 in a similar way and
be pleased with the results.
nrdvrgr
Also check the Plan B Evil Twin filter - not the same, but it has that crisp feel to it.
Waz
nrdvrgr
I would, but I've sworn of Plan-b. Selling my m15 soon!
Veqtor
Actually, it's not a stupid question, I hope elby designs will make this as a finished module:
http://cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs77_vcf.html

It's great if you have a switch to make it process cv, that way you can dial in on certain ranges of motion with the bp output!
Waz
Veqtor wrote:
Actually, it's not a stupid question, I hope elby designs will make this as a finished module:
http://cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs77_vcf.html

It's great if you have a switch to make it process cv, that way you can dial in on certain ranges of motion with the bp output!


So many times I have looked at that CGS board and wished I could cut it in half like some of the other CGS boards.... Dead Banana
wavehead
I have been trying to figure this out as well. In general I am looking for filters with a fast response, especially for sharp and dynamic audio-rate FM.

I know the CGS Serge filter is different from the filters that are now in STS panels, but can anyone chime in on how it differs and if it proves the same sharp response? I heard a demo of it and it was nice, but it didn't really have the examples I was looking for (like FM, etc.). Can a switch be added to filter CVs?

I have considered just getting the triple filters M-panel... once I start contemplating cwejman modules to get closer to the serge sound the cost doesn't really seem that ridiculous. You are basically paying the same prices.
wavehead
and then of course there is always this to think about:

Bananalogue wrote:
dont worry folks, ill be back - and im bringing some friends with me...


but who knows when that will happen and what it will entail... if it means what i think it means it's probably going to shake things up for the euro format.
felix
wavehead wrote:
I have been trying to figure this out as well. In general I am looking for filters with a fast response, especially for sharp and dynamic audio-rate FM.

Cwejman. I'm trying to get my hands on an MMF-1, but the RES-4 exhibits this characteristic perfectly. It single handedly started my addiction for Cwejman.

The VCO-2RM also responds incredibly fast to CV. Sending exp envelopes to the pitch results in a extremely present "tap" sound - very "physical" sounding and nothing what I've heard with most VCOs (euro and otherwise).
wavehead
the RES-4 does look like it could be perfect for me, i wish i had shelled out the money for the last one that went on BST.
Luka
try patch a resonance into the filter and put a vca in the feedback path
dude
Luka wrote:
try patch a resonance into the filter and put a vca in the feedback path


that grammar just blew my mind. hihi can you clarify?
Luka
hehe sorry (i was writing sql at the time and was in a different headspace)

patch output of filter back through a vca and back into filter audio inputs
that is what happens in the var q filter unless im mistaken
might needs some more conditioning
you can send triggers into the vca like the var-q to ping it
dude
ah right. i thought that was what you meant. thanks for the proper grammar 8_)
wavehead
this might even be a question that should be on the DIY forum, but does anyone know what it is exactly that makes a circuit have such a response like that of serge, cwejman, etc.? i know these modules are produced with higher grade components in general (or at least that's how they are advertised), but what kinds of components/designs support such a precise and quick response to CV/audio?


of course vactrols would be an example of something that is not geared towards a quick response... but what I find really interesting is while I am so fascinated by creating very acoustic or "organic" (whatever word you want to use not sure I like that one) sounds in synthesis, it seems there are two sides of the spectrum in the response that certain circuits have and they both can have an advantage over the other.

for example , i have found the slow ring of my borg 1 paired with the anti-oscillator creating all kinds of very acoustic sounds - beyond the classic "buchla bongo" sound, things like the sounds of strings, rubber bands, brass, etc.

but the very precise and quick response of some circuits can create textures of a hyper-real nature, super fine and detailed grains that can sound like water or electricity. better yet... you find sounds that are so lucid, so vivid they sound "acoustic" and real, but are totally undefinable.

i hear some people talk about how they don't like synthesizers that sound too precise or "calculated," that vintage synthesizers are more desirable to them because they have things like "drift" in their oscillators. i can definitely see this when I am playing my pro-one, it really feels "alive" (and just excuse the very vague terms that i am using here, there doesn't need to be an argument about how calling something "warm" doesn't mean anything). Yet when I hear recordings of something like the creature, the sounds jump out at me like nothing else, the only way I would know how to describe that is saying it's "alive" (no pun intended).

*end of rant*
Luka
i think the thing with serge is it is well packaged. they only allow you to have selections of modules that work well together. they have been around so long they know what works well
cv slime 800
Great post wavehead we're not worthy, you really articulated what I often wonder about when I hear those watery Serge sounds as well!

But if it was simply a type of component used then it wouldn't it be easily copied & adapted? As Luka points out it must come down to the mind behind it & how they refine the design.
Dave77
in euro i have....Plan-b model 11 -Cwejman VM-1--Doepfer a120-A121-Frequensteiner livewire..
But the Serge Q VCF... unique sound , i love this filter thumbs up
felix
wavehead wrote:
of course vactrols would be an example of something that is not geared towards a quick response... but what I find really interesting is while I am so fascinated by creating very acoustic or "organic" (whatever word you want to use not sure I like that one) sounds in synthesis, it seems there are two sides of the spectrum in the response that certain circuits have and they both can have an advantage over the other.

for example , i have found the slow ring of my borg 1 paired with the anti-oscillator creating all kinds of very acoustic sounds - beyond the classic "buchla bongo" sound, things like the sounds of strings, rubber bands, brass, etc.

but the very precise and quick response of some circuits can create textures of a hyper-real nature, super fine and detailed grains that can sound like water or electricity. better yet... you find sounds that are so lucid, so vivid they sound "acoustic" and real, but are totally undefinable.

i hear some people talk about how they don't like synthesizers that sound too precise or "calculated," that vintage synthesizers are more desirable to them because they have things like "drift" in their oscillators. i can definitely see this when I am playing my pro-one, it really feels "alive" (and just excuse the very vague terms that i am using here, there doesn't need to be an argument about how calling something "warm" doesn't mean anything). Yet when I hear recordings of something like the creature, the sounds jump out at me like nothing else, the only way I would know how to describe that is saying it's "alive" (no pun intended).

*end of rant*


My experience thus far is that the more "precisely" (fast and accurate) a thing responds to voltage (audio or cv) *and* with a large range, the more "physical" and "acoustic" the resultant sound is. This make a lot of sense to me since acoustic sounds are fairly complex in structure, and our ears can hear a considerable amount of that detail. The less detail, the more "dull" or "simplified" the sound can sound. Sometimes this is incredibly subtle, but it can definitely make a difference.

On vactrols, I think their special slow property ends up being a nice co-incidence that accurately emulates the natural sounding amplitude and timbral decay of acoustic strikes. The "natural" sound of an LPG as a VCA, for example being open/closed manually and not being "plucked", comes from the fact that you are simultaneously reducing amplitude, as well as HF content, with a relatively subtle one-pole filter. One pole (6dB) filters are much less common in synthesizers for some reason, but I find they more accurately represent the way physical objects change their timbre relative to increased input (horns, woodwinds, even percussive objects). So those properties I don't attribute to "slow" response at all.

For me all the "vintage" stuff is simply a preference. For a lot of people, this is what a synth is "supposed" to sound like...what they originally sounded like. I really love that sound too, but overtime as I've added more and more "not-vintage" I've come to appreciate the flexibility in sonics that the not-vintage stuff can provide. A perfect example is that I was always avoiding Cwejman stuff because of the reputation of being "cold", that combined with the price just kept me away. Now that I've added more Cwejman to my system I realize I should have started this route from the start.
jonkull
felix wrote:
Now that I've added more Cwejman to my system I realize I should have started this route from the start.


Sounds like me and Serge.
REwire
I've had both the Cwejman MMF-1 and MMF-2 and a comparison to Serge is something I can't even fathom. The Serge resonance is so unique I've never heard any Euro filter or any vintage synth filter like it. That's why there's Creature patched in to my system, mostly for the filter. The way it responds to FM is quite unique as well.

If I had to name one that's the closest though, it'd be the Plan-B Model 12 for the bubbly resonance sound. Being vactrol based, it doesn't FM or respond to CV fast enough though. The Frequensteiner is the only filter that grinds with audio rate FM like the Serge. Unfortunately, it lacks any bass, bubblyness or thump.

Dan
felix
jonkull wrote:
felix wrote:
Now that I've added more Cwejman to my system I realize I should have started this route from the start.


Sounds like me and Serge.

You go some Serge?! How did I miss that?! Dead Banana

REwire wrote:
I've had both the Cwejman MMF-1 and MMF-2 and a comparison to Serge is something I can't even fathom. The Serge resonance is so unique I've never heard any Euro filter or any vintage synth filter like it. That's why there's Creature patched in to my system, mostly for the filter. The way it responds to FM is quite unique as well.

Just so I don't mis-represent myself. I never meant to imply that any Cwejman sounded like Serge. Just that it was super clean, wide range, and responded to CV quickly. I've never used a Serge so I couldn't make a comparison anyway.
jonkull
felix wrote:
jonkull wrote:
felix wrote:
Now that I've added more Cwejman to my system I realize I should have started this route from the start.


Sounds like me and Serge.

You go some Serge?! How did I miss that?! Dead Banana


I picked up an Animal a week ago. It's one of the very few modular purchases I've made that totally lives up to the hype that surrounds it (in my opinion). nanners
Entrainer
felix wrote:
I never meant to imply that any Cwejman sounded like Serge.


Likewise...

I just said I could use the MMF-1 in a similar way and be pleased
with the results. Meaning I could FM and Ping it... it'd respond fast.

I'd prefer the Serge though for that sound.
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