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TM-1 output question
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Metasonix  
Author TM-1 output question
Cybananna
I just got a TM-1 (bought a few months ago and had to wait until Christmas) and all the shaping functions work / sound as expected. I've been using a Livewire AFG saw out for the audio source. When the TM-1 is in bypass, the signal is loud and at around the same level as it the normal AFG level. When I switch the bypass to hear the waveshape / ringmod (effected) sound, the level drops a ton. So much that I can hardly hear it. To hear the processed sound I have to boost it back up. Then the bypassed signal is insanely loud.

I should be driving the TM-1 properly with the AFG signal. Is this bypass / non-bypassed situation normal?

Any thoughts, operator error / expectations or should I contact AH or Metasonix?
zerosum
Run an EG into the VCA CV in.
Its a VCA, so when its driven with an Envelope it opens the VCA up more.

In my experience when I ran the Blacet EG-1 into the VCA CV in, it opened up fully and I noticed very little drop in volume when bypassed,

try it.

Quote:
Is this bypass / non-bypassed situation normal?

Yes.

The BEAM CV IN jack will also function as an output, try it. 8)
Cybananna
thanks so much. I will play with it some more this evening!
zerosum
Did it work for you?
Cybananna
Hey, thanks for following up. Metasonix stuff is great. I have to say that. I wish I would have discovered the beauty much sooner!

As for the TM-1. I don't have a Blacet envelope, I have Doepfer so, the output of the Doepfer is a lot less. I tried the Doepfer Env and it was effecting the VCA, but I didn't notice a change in bypassed vs non bypassed. So, I used a Blacet Quadmix VCA to boost the crap out of the envelope. Certainly was effecting the character of the sound, but not the volume level between bypassed and non bypassed.

Using the Beam CV IN as the output, it was much closer in volume bypassed vs non bypassed but it also changed the character of the sound a lot (which is fine, more sounds!).

So, the env trick didn't help. The Beam trick did although it changes the sound quite a bit.

EDIT: (this problem is caused by operator error, it is not a fault of the TM-1) It's not that big of a deal. I was just surprised by it. I guess not a big deal so long as I don't accidently hit bypass when playing! eek!

EDIT: (the TM-1 is not buffered and the TM-2 is buffered. They are not the same - my misunderstanding of the function) And, I have to boost it to get it to modular level which is a bit of a pain. I don't have to boost my TM-2 to get to modular level. My TM-2 (which I had first) is very similar in volume when bypassed as it is filtered. That's why it surprised me so much.

So, was the TM-1 designed to run into a guitar amp? I know the TM-5 is used to get a guitar to the correct level for the TM-1 and the TM-5 isn't supposed to be used with a guitar amp. So the TM-1 brings the signal back down to an amp friendly signal?
zerosum
Hmmmm, I think that all the doepfer stuff only outputs 5 v,
so if you are amplifying the output of the doepfer EG with a doepfer VCA, its still only outputting 5v.
Maybe try with something that spits out 10v,

In this example, I was able to get my Truly Beautiful Disaster fuzz pedal to track from a keyboard,
keyboard>mobius>TBD>TM-1>TM-7.
The EG-1 is patched into the VCA CV in, and the INV out on the EG-1 is patched into the gate in on the EG-1.

It starts out with the TM-1 bypassed, then I engage it.

Quote:
So the TM-1 brings the signal back down to an amp friendly signal?

I think it still spits out a line level signal at 1v.
The BEAM out is hotter(I think/if i remember correctly)

I don't have any modular gear with me to test right now :(

Quote:
So, was the TM-1 designed to run into a guitar amp?

hehehehehe, probably not, but it sure does sound cool 8)
Cybananna
nice sounds! That guitar sounds great!

I should clarify, I meant to say I was sending the doepfer env to the D input of the quadmix VCA which functions as 10x boost. It should have been at least 10v going out. I also tried it with the dopefer polarizer which should add a 5v boost to it.

zerosum wrote:
In this example, ... It starts out with the TM-1 bypassed, then I engage it.


There's no way I could do that right now. the sound would disappear when engaged, even with the EG. Maybe i'm doing something wrong? I'm taking the output of the env, running it into the QMVCA (to boodt the signal level, not act as a VCA), then into the TM-1 VCA in. I was gating the env with a hex zone.

zerosum wrote:
I think it still spits out a line level signal at 1v.
The BEAM out is hotter(I think/if i remember correctly)


I should be able to measure that I would guess, to see how much voltage is actually coming out.

I agree that the Beam out seems hotter.

I'll try messing around with an EG some more. I wish I had a Blacet one then I would be able to try your example apples to apples...
metasonix
Just want to warn you: the TM-1 output is not buffered. So it only works properly if you run it into a HIGH impedance input, like on a guitar amp
or the unbalanced line input on most mixers. Your complaint is typical of what happens when loading down the TM1 input too much.
Cybananna
yep, it was operator error! Thanks for the help, it seems that is exactly what I was doing. It wasn't really meant as a gripe, I just didn't know why it was behaving so strange. Turns out I was causing it. Now that I fixed my error, oops it behaves perfectly and I don't have a problem at all.
felix
So the problem was that you were not plugging it into a high enough impedance input (like a line in on a mixer) or because you had too high of an impedance on the TM-1's input?

Or was it that the input and output of the TM-1 did not have the same similar impedance? I've had the same "issue" with mine from time to time, and would be happy to avoid it.
Cybananna
I still don't get the whole impedance thing, but yea, if you don't have the impedances the same, this type of thing happens. It sounds like it can happen on either end. I did have the output of the TM-1 going into a hi Z input on my mixer, but I guess I was doing it on the TM-1's input (?)

The issue (It seems) was that I was putting the wrong impedance into the TM-1. I talked to an electrical engineer friend of mine (knows nothing about music but the problem is math!) Anyway,

The solution seems to be simple. It seems you need to attenuate the input signal to the TM-1. I tried it this evening and it worked fine. Same way you need to attenuate to a standard guitar pedal.

So my path was [modular synth osc]->[attenuator]->[TM-1]->[hi Z mixer input]

alternately [modular synth osc]->[attenuator]->[TM-1]->[boosting device like blacet i/o doepfer a-133 etc.]->[back into modular synth]

after doing this, everything seems fine. The TM-1 seems to act as one would expect and the levels can be made so that they are similar (same) when bypassed.

I **guess** that was the trouble. I still don't understand it all even though it must be pretty simple. I thought the TM-1 wanted the straight modular signal, but it seems it doesn't.

honestly, I still feel a little like an idiot, but it works... hmmm..... i'm still learning...
Kent
In our modern world of home recording (leaving out 600 Ohm stuff like LA-2a, Pultecs, etc.) it is pretty simple.

An arbitrarily lower impedance output wants to 'see' (be plugged into) a much higher impedance input. This is what gives you a healthy signal level.

Lame analogy-time! SlayerBadger!

It is like having a water faucet connected to a really large diameter hose. The hose diameter is so large that the water which is flowing within it doesn't build up any pressure and just limps out of the end of the hose.

If you were to put your thumb on the end of the hose to 'impede' that flow to some degree, the pressure (your signal), would build up and exit in a much more forceful manner. This is kinda-sorta like your signal, but my description has been 'retardified' for public consumption and because I'm a retard. Champagne
dubstephead
SewerBadger wrote:

Lame analogy-time! SlayerBadger!

It is like having a water faucet connected to a really large diameter hose. The hose diameter is so large that the water which is flowing within it doesn't build up any pressure and just limps out of the end of the hose.

If you were to put your thumb on the end of the hose to 'impede' that flow to some degree, the pressure (your signal), would build up and exit in a much more forceful manner. This is kinda-sorta like your signal, but my description has been 'retardified' for public consumption and because I'm a retard. Champagne


LOL cool this is the exact analogy one of my teachers uses all the time..
("Modern Recording Techniques" maybe...??)
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