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3 VCA's in comparison
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Modular Synth General Discussion Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author 3 VCA's in comparison
alex82
I made a comparison with 3 diffrent VCA's...
Espacially to hear what kind of character the cv response of a vca can give to the sound.

So there are the Motm 1190 dual VCA, cwejm. vca-2P and the doepf. a-132-3

Each vca got the same CV from the Cwejm. VC2 envelope generator and also exact the same signal input.

Motm Saw http://share.ovi.com/media/mr-extrem.public/mr-extrem.10050

Cwejm Saw http://share.ovi.com/media/mr-extrem.public/mr-extrem.10042

Doepf. Saw http://share.ovi.com/media/mr-extrem.public/mr-extrem.10046


Motm noise http://share.ovi.com/media/mr-extrem.public/mr-extrem.10049

Cwejm. noise http://share.ovi.com/media/mr-extrem.public/mr-extrem.10043

Doepf. noise http://share.ovi.com/media/mr-extrem.public/mr-extrem.10048


Motm Sine http://share.ovi.com/media/mr-extrem.public/mr-extrem.10051

Cwejm. Sine http://share.ovi.com/media/mr-extrem.public/mr-extrem.10044

Doepf Sine http://share.ovi.com/media/mr-extrem.public/mr-extrem.10047
Cat-A-Tonic
Very interesting.
I didn't expect the Cwejman to have such a different sound from the other 2.
They are all noticeably different, but the MOTM and Doepfer have really fast response by comparison.
The Cwejman sounded softer (and more natural/pleasant in your examples).
Is it because the Cwejman has a semi-Logarithmic response curve?
Are the other 2 set to Linear or Exponential?
alex82
I think its much underrated, what only the character of the volume response can do to a sound. The Cwejm. has sure the most percussive response with its hard log. mode but it also makes the sound always kind of thin.
The motm has a hard exp. curve and sounds sometimes like gated but for a massive snare sound for example, this vca comes much better.

I would say the Doepfer VCA is in the middle of both but nearer to the Motm.
alex82
Cat-A-Tonic wrote:
Very interesting.
I didn't expect the Cwejman to have such a different sound from the other 2.
They are all noticeably different, but the MOTM and Doepfer have really fast response by comparison.
The Cwejman sounded softer (and more natural/pleasant in your examples).
Is it because the Cwejman has a semi-Logarithmic response curve?
Are the other 2 set to Linear or Exponential?



Cwejm. was setted to log. and the other two to exp. mode..

The Cwejm. sounds longer cause it has a log curve, but the attack and decay phase is still more percussive and faster i think than the other two

The other to has both an exp. response but they are diffrent... I think the motm vca has a stronger exp. curve than the doepfer.
Kent
alex82 wrote:

I would say the Doepfer VCA is in the middle of both but nearer to the Motm.


This is exactly what I was thinking before I even read your summary. I'm surprised at how 'snappy' the MOTM is. Damned Credit card....

I assume that the MOTM is O.K. with +/- 5V and doesn't need higher to open fully?
alex82
Kent wrote:
alex82 wrote:

I would say the Doepfer VCA is in the middle of both but nearer to the Motm.


This is exactly what I was thinking before I even read your summary. I'm surprised at how 'snappy' the MOTM is. Damned Credit card....

I assume that the MOTM is O.K. with +/- 5V and doesn't need higher to open fully?


I'm not sure, but i thought the motm 1190 is full open with 5V.
In exp. Mode, the "Initial" controller is a attentuater for the cv input signal, i think. And it seems that also gain is possible with this controller.

unfortunatly, i didn't find any informations from Motm about this...

Maybe someone here knows more..
Kent
Well, it seems as if 'all is good' since there wasn't a completely messed up difference in levels between the MOTM and the other 2.

Their product description hints that it will be full open @ +5VDC. It seems that it will also pass more than +10VDC as there is a built-in soft clipper when levels start exceeding that threshold.

I may have to add this one on to my order... dammit...
dougcl
Cwejman wins!
wetterberg
I think the overall "problem" with tests like these is that we don't know what the voltage control curve is actually like, and thus what is the "ideal" curve.

I'd say cwejman LOSES, since my feeble logical deduction skills says that if the MOTM and the Doepfer sound so alike in curve, then why the long tail on the Cwejman? that's not what the envelope "asked for", as it were.

Debating what sounds "good" doesn't really apply, if you ask me confused
dougcl
On second thought the MOTM is woodier.
Chuck E. Jesus
run a pure analog(ue) sine thru them all...whichever sounds most phat wins...
Kent
I've got a 'woody' right now. I'll take all three!

Actually, I'll probably go for the Doepfer and the MOTM now that the prices are factored in.

I don't think that there is a 'winner' here (except for me and my woody). It all depends upon what the desired end result would be in any given patch. As long as they aren't doing anything unpleasant (unwanted nonlinearities, etc.) then they're all good, no?
parasitk
ross g wrote:
run a pure analog(ue) sine thru them all...whichever sounds most phat wins...


MAXIMUM HARMONIXXXX SlayerBadger!
alex82
wetterberg wrote:
I think the overall "problem" with tests like these is that we don't know what the voltage control curve is actually like, and thus what is the "ideal" curve.

I'd say cwejman LOSES, since my feeble logical deduction skills says that if the MOTM and the Doepfer sound so alike in curve, then why the long tail on the Cwejman? that's not what the envelope "asked for", as it were.

Debating what sounds "good" doesn't really apply, if you ask me confused



Well, almost evry envelope has a log. response. I also have compared it with my doepfer A-140 and it almost sounds the same. So it can said that the cv response ist pretty normal.

I think most synthesizers are using exp. vca response and i would say, the cwejm. VCA-2P is more exotic.

It's a question of personal taste, and i think it's good to have both characters for diffrent sounds..

For example:
The noise sound with the cwejm. vca, can sound like a real snare noise, thats not realy possible with the others.
But in the first bass sound, the motm sounds much better for me. There is more body in the bass...
JohnLRice
I haven't tried this with these three VCA's but I'm pretty sure you could get the MOTM or Doepfer to sound pretty much like the Cwejm by adjusting the envelope. I'm not so sure you'd be able to make the Cwejm sound as tight as the MOTM or Doepfer though . . . hmmm.....
Glitchmachines
Nice! Thanks for posting these...exactly what I have been looking for.
e-grad
Kent wrote:
I assume that the MOTM is O.K. with +/- 5V and doesn't need higher to open fully?

Yes, the MOTM VCA is designed to work on 5V envelopes. To my best knowledge among todays manufacturer's VCAs only the Blacet 2200 VCA requires 10V to open fully.
modularplanner
Off on a slightly different tangent, but just got an A-132-3 in the post this morning and the difference A/B'ing between the output quality to that of my A-131 and this is very noticable. Running a sine wave through both from the AFG you can see the wave form is even slightly distorted in the A-131 with a slight ramp on the rising edge in the oscilloscope. Very happy with the A-132-3 sounds much cleaner.
Jari Jokinen
The examples are not downloadable, are they?

The difference is surprisingly big. Doepfer and MOTM sound choked (or gated) as if there is separate decay and release present. I would guess, that the response curve is different near zero CV. In most circumstances I might prefer Cwejman-like response. The "choke" comes into effect rather too early with Doepfer and MOTM.

How about transient response? Maybe short spikes as CV and then VCO synced with the gate as input...

Some remarks:
- ADSR-VC2 rev A has switch for 5V or 8V.
- VCA-2P gives unity gain at 5V CV, but doesn't stop there.
- Cwejman "log" response is exponential response.
- "Semi-logarithmic" response of Cwejman VCA-4MX is not very different from the "log" response of VCA-2P.
alex82
Jari Jokinen wrote:

- Cwejman "log" response is exponential response.
- "Semi-logarithmic" response of Cwejman VCA-4MX is not very different from the "log" response of VCA-2P.


What? You say the log response is a exp. response. Thats not very logical confused

I don't know realy whats the diffrence of a semi log. curve and a log. curve, can you explain the diffrence?
felix
Exponential and logarithmic get swapped around a lot and it does create some confusion.

When you apply an exponential envelope to a linear VCA, the result is a logarithmic response. Likewise if you apply a linear envelope to an exponential VCA you also get a logarithmic response. It's hard to tell many times wether or not the manufacturer is talking about the type of VCA or the type of expected EG input.
RussianDance
JohnLRice wrote:
I haven't tried this with these three VCA's but I'm pretty sure you could get the MOTM or Doepfer to sound pretty much like the Cwejm by adjusting the envelope. I'm not so sure you'd be able to make the Cwejm sound as tight as the MOTM or Doepfer though . . . hmmm.....


That's exactly what I thought when I heard the samples. The Cwejman attack seems a bit sluggish.
alex82
felix wrote:
Exponential and logarithmic get swapped around a lot and it does create some confusion.

When you apply an exponential envelope to a linear VCA, the result is a logarithmic response. Likewise if you apply a linear envelope to an exponential VCA you also get a logarithmic response. It's hard to tell many times wether or not the manufacturer is talking about the type of VCA or the type of expected EG input.


That's not ligical.. I thought a exp. envelope with a linear vca makes a exp response
and a log. envelope with a linear vca a logarithmic. I'm confused... confused

Most envelopes are logaritmic..But what do you think is the result when you have a log. envelope with a exp. ore a log vca?
alex82
felix wrote:
It's hard to tell many times wether or not the manufacturer is talking about the type of VCA or the type of expected EG input.


Anyway, something of the cwejman response must be diffrent the other. As you can hear in the sound-examples.
dougcl
Is it tinnier?
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