crash cymbals

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langley
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crash cymbals

Post by langley » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:18 am

anyone have advice for synthesizing crash cymbals? (i'm talking proper big ones not 808 style).

I have a nord modular which seems to get nowhwere near so i'm looking at euro modules to get me there (hate using samples).

thanks

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BugBrand
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Post by BugBrand » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:23 am

A sideways approach - contact mics on cymbals is a lot of fun.

Mike Fun
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Post by Mike Fun » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:23 pm

It's got to be one of the most insanely complex things to try to synthesize. Even most samples are awkward sounding depending on the context.

I'm not a fan of imitative synthesis, so I'm tempted to say why bother trying. Record a real cymbal or synthesize something that fills that role but doesn't necessarily sound authentic.

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bwhittington
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Post by bwhittington » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:24 pm

Mike Fun wrote:I'm not a fan of imitative synthesis, so I'm tempted to say why bother trying. Record a real cymbal or synthesize something that fills that role but doesn't necessarily sound authentic.
I'm amused/bemused by the number of times members here suggest that other people's musical goals aren't worthy aims. I guess I expect people to understand that a modular concept can be used to explore more than blippy bleeps.

A authentic cymbal sound would be a tricky one to synthesize, but I wouldn't fault someone for building an entire system around the goal of trying if that's what amused him.

Cheers,
Brian

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Rigo
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Post by Rigo » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:31 pm

Maybe you find some useful information here:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/allsynthsecrets.htm

Just search for cymbal ...

Rigo

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Johnisfaster
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Post by Johnisfaster » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:56 pm

I don't even own one, but I feel like an e340 would be a good place to start. Maybe e340 being fm'd + some white noise and then run the whole thing through a spring reverb or something, play with the mix. :despair:

It sounds like a fun challenge though, really quite difficult.
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Mike Fun
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Post by Mike Fun » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:57 pm

I'm amused/bemused by the number of times members here suggest that other people's musical goals aren't worthy aims.
I'm not at all suggesting that langley's goals aren't worthy. Based on the original post, it's hard to tell if they're looking for a practical solution or a synth tutorial. If they're looking for a synth tutorial, your suggestion is awesome.

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Johnisfaster
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Post by Johnisfaster » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:00 pm

oo... I forgot about ring modulation.. hm..
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mojopin
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Post by mojopin » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:00 pm

Yeah, just read the SOS stuff. It can be done and I think learning how to do it is a worthy goal. If you understand the fundamentals you can synthesize cymbals no one has heard and pleasantly fool the ear. It just depends how big your modular is but you will have to throw everything at it..that's for sure.

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Just me
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Post by Just me » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:09 pm

Wavetable synthesis really helps. But you need to be able to morph the waves. I've got some nice cymbals that way but, they are VERY layered. Trying it purely analog has always been a fail for me. I try it every now and again though. Usually at some point I remember what a salesman from SCI told me once. "Why try to make it sound like an existing instrument. Make it sound like something entirely new." And then I go back to my noises! Please be sure to post sound samples and patch info if you do get a sound that you are looking for. It would be fun for others to try it, also.
If I have water in my ear, is it safe for me to listen to electronic music?

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Johnisfaster
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Post by Johnisfaster » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:42 pm

Just me wrote:"Why try to make it sound like an existing instrument. Make it sound like something entirely new."
"Why not make it sound like an existing instrument. Make it sound something entirely old."

I like both :)
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monroe
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Re: crash cymbals

Post by monroe » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:35 am

langley wrote:
I have a nord modular which seems to get nowhwere near so i'm looking at euro modules to get me there (hate using samples).
The idea that analog synths could or should be used to create realistic acoustic sounds is absurd. That's not what they're for.

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antimatter
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Post by antimatter » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:44 am

my approach only, went out and got a cymbal

makes all sorts of sounds

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bwhittington
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Re: crash cymbals

Post by bwhittington » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:22 am

monroe wrote:The idea that analog synths could or should be used to create realistic acoustic sounds is absurd. That's not what they're for.
You're right, that silly imitative synthesis fad that has existed as long as analog synthesis has is an absurd pursuit. Goodness knows, every synth I've ever purchased has come with a strict rulebook defining what it's for.

PS. http://synthtech.com/demo/440_trumpet.mp3
http://synthtech.com/demo/440_recorder.mp3

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stin-g
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Post by stin-g » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:40 am

bwhittington - you rule.
And That Sound on Sound link Rigo posted is amazing! I tried some of that stuff and dang... mostly sounds like aluminum foil being crammed in my ear, but I did get some really cool cymbal sounds, albeit very "electronic" sounding. If I spent two more weeks on it I might get a sound almost as "realistic" as my Vermona! :hihi: Anybody have a MFB drum-07?

Anyway I hate to clutter this thread when I'm not really offering an answer to the original question, but I love that some of y'all are trying to figure it out and encourage the naysayers to give it a shot. Why wouldn't you? Isn't exploration one of the big reasons we like these complicated expensive cumbersome instruments?

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langley
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Post by langley » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:49 pm

thanks for your comments - i suppose it helps to know its not an easy challenge as i seem to have spent quite a bit of time and not really got past the tr808/kpr77 pfshhhhhh. my goal is to create an electronic kit that feels like standing in front of a live kit and i think i need to move air to get that.

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snoop
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Post by snoop » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:24 pm

I`ve created all sorts of cymbals with modular synth. It`s difficult but not impossible. Two ways spring to mind

1. 3 delays i feedback loops with a short noise transient for exciter.
2. 12 oscillators and a lot of filters. The way i made this:
[video][/video]

Not the coolest of drumbeats, but the intention was to emulate

more info at www.frodebeats.com
if your interested. All drumbeats and sounds on the homepage is modular synth
Last edited by snoop on Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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giorgio
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Post by giorgio » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:26 pm

just popping in to say that synth secrets rules.

maybe the allen strange book can offer some help. I just took a quick look at my PDF copy and didn't find anything, but that doesn't mean it isn't in there..
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langley
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Post by langley » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:12 pm

fantastic work snoop! your site is a revelation and i'm definitely going to explore further. what's the dog called?

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megaohm
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Post by megaohm » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:30 pm

snoop wrote:but the intention was to emulate
That was impressive!
The short and long snare was nice!
www.MegaOhmAudio.com

Will work for pistachios

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snoop
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Post by snoop » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:03 pm

langley wrote:fantastic work snoop! your site is a revelation and i'm definitely going to explore further. what's the dog called?
Thanks! The dog in the modular picture is Ludvig, and the orange guy is Frode

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mojopin
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Post by mojopin » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:13 pm

Great video! I have seen it before and it inspired me. I needed to know that it was possible to synthesize great cymbals you proved it to me. :hail:

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snoop
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Post by snoop » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:37 pm

Thanks. I`ve been doing drum synthesis for a full year now (24/7) and i must say that crash cymbals are not really worth spending to much time on. At least when it comes to recreating the real deal. You can come pretty close, but you really end up with a poor imitation.

Metal is really in the realms of advanced digital waveguides, BUT, you can derive very interesting sounds from trying to make crash cymbals, so its still worth the effort methinks. Among other things you get great hihats and metal with medium lenght duration.

Been reading alot of research on metal surfaces. Not for the faint harted! You very, very quickley run out of modules trying to account for everything. As for waveguides - Read up on the research of Dr. Julius Smith if your REALLYREALLYREALLY interested in this stuff.

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dequalsrxt
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Post by dequalsrxt » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:53 am

Ah yeah, I've seen/heard that before too - super cool!

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