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Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Modular Synth General Discussion  
Author Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?
sb
For a long time now I've been intrigued with the idea of setting up a patch on my modular, hitting record and walking away for an hour....ultimately reviewing the outcome later on and being surprised by the ensuing soundscape...changing timbres, random melodies, etc etc.

Unfortunately in my experience this is easier said than done. It's obviously very easy to generate random cv and direct it at different parameters, but it's more difficult to have this result in something 'musical' that doesn't ultimately become repetitive (and quite quickly in my experience). Btw..by 'musical' I simply mean interesting to listen to...I guess I'm thinking psychedelic noise here rather than minimal techno but whatever ....as long as its surprising and most importantly automatic.

I've tried the Allen Strange tail chasing type stuff and this is great for generating randomly changing cv but how to apply this to timbre ? The best I've managed to come up with involves the use of multiple Tyme Sefari's sampling and resampling a main patch (which involves the tail chasing patch....source of uncertainty being clocked by an LFO which is ultimately having it's rate cv'd). Throwing some shortwave into the mix has also turned up some interesting stuff...a cv'able radio would-be lovely. I'm also thinking an ASR would be very handy for this kind of stuff...if only there was one in Euro :-(.

Anyway, just wandering if anyone else tries their hand at similar stuff and if they've got any ideas, tips / tricks etc ?

Simon
nrdvrgr
Just a small trick - random CV source (Wogglebug/Noisering) clocked by a clock div (/64) controlling switches... this way you can get dramtic changes that happens a few minutes away. uLFO´s might be handy too - got real slow cycles. Ohter than that - hell knows... experimentation is the key.

Also, I´d like to hear Mono-Poly´s take on this. He is the KING of noodling in my books.
frijitz
sb wrote:
Anyway, just wandering if anyone else tries their hand at similar stuff and if they've got any ideas, tips / tricks etc ?

You might have a look at the work I've been doing on applying mathematical chaos theory. Chaotic signals are irregular but they are not based on noise. This means they have more correlation than the usual noise-based circuits. The amount and of irregularity can be dialed in with the circuits controls. Have a look at my website to get some idea of the possibilities. You can get my ChaQuO combined chaos generator/quadrature oscillator in Euro from Elby Designs.

Elby will also be coming out with my 4x4 EG There is a little writeup at the Elby website. There is also a youtube video.

Ian

http://home.comcast.net/~ijfritz/ch_over.htm
http://www.elby-designs.com/panther/ed114-4x4ad_ar/ed114.htm
http://www.youtube.com/user/frijitz001
kindredlost
Generative patches are a passion after my own heart. Everyone has a different sound idea to pursue so my suggestions may be way off from where you need to go, but here they are anyway.

I've been pursuing this idea (albeit digitally) since 1980 when I built a PAIA P4700J and correlated 8700 computer controller. It came packaged with "Pink Tunes" from John Simonton.

No mainly I work in the 5U MU modular format which some of this is less easily done than with some of the Euro and Buchla modules which seem more digitally robust to me (e.g. Wogglebug etc.). Modcan modules are the obvious exception and are rich in features-per-module to overcome some of the functional limits.

My main interest is to have limited control of various parameters of the modular so that it can be free enough to generate patterns on it's own but within a constraint imposed by me. This is essentially what "Pink Tunes" is all about but with a digital random function. Now I do it without a computer or random generator like "Pink Tunes" by using several discrete ideas with modules.

---

1) Old Standby - noise to a S&H for random cv. Using this to an LFO to generate odd clocking is helpful too.

2) Soft and Hard Sync feedback. Sending the output of one osc into the hard or soft sync of a second and then returning the output of that one back into the first one. Adding other cv's to each of these and controlling the amount of sync feedback through a vca is useful for changing tonalities. Similar ideas can be done with ring modulators and wavefolders.

3) Gate delay's and random gates. These modules come in handy for breaking up patterns and making things change over longer time periods. I've built and bought some of the Yves Usson designs. I'm planning to build his time divisions modules too.

4) Long clock divisions for sequential stages. Having a way to divide a clock into up to 32 or even 64 divisions and sending these to sequencers to transpose pitches, LFO rates or change filter settings over a long period of time. I currently use a Moon Octal Divider but there are many to choose from. Odd divisions are helpful such as 7 or 13.

5) Long subtle ramps with an inverted (or ramp) from an EG, LFO or function generator applied to something drastic like a wavefolder, ring modulator, filter overdrive or digital delay. Long periods of minutes in which it builds and abruptly ends or changes.

6) Slew generators timed at odd intervals with things like the random gates or sequential switches. Sometimes sending these through a quantizer or S&H to give it glissando rather than portamento.

7) A minimum of two mid/upper range tones with a lower octave tone with all three in a specific tuning or key signature. Occasionally transpose all this. Quantizers are paramount help here. This of course is a classic ambient/minimal tonal idea but it can be good with microtonal pitch or alternate tunings too. If you have enough quantizers and switches then occasionally switching in one of the quantizers that is set for a different tuning can create spontaneous interest that comes and goes.

8) Loopers. I use a Korg Kaoss 3 pad but there are many to choose from. Looping a segment and feeding it back into the modular can be interesting. Mostly though this is an operator interferance in what otherwise would be an automatice process. To avoid that I'd suggest randomly sending audio to and from the looper by means of the modular.

---

The thing that I've found helpful is to have a large enough modular to have several things in counter to each other. This adds enough complexity to give it interest. When having many different events happening sometimes thing interefere destructively or add together dynamically. This adds surprise and intrigue.

I've had a patch generating something that sounded planned and by the time I got the recording going it was over, never to return (for a long time anyway). Recording events like these can lead to entirely seperate pieces.
kindredlost
Ian, your ChaQuO and BiNTic are two items on the "short list" that I want to build. I've been eye-balling the Bridechamber kits for a while now. Your suggestion here is enough to bump the ChaQuO up on the list. thumbs up I'll admit I never thought of it in this way until now. Thanks.
sb
Hey guys, thanks for all your comments. There are loads of interesting tips in there that I'm going to try out..plenty to keep me busy.

Ian - I'm familiar with your modules (I think the TGTSH is one of yours ?)....the new EG certainly looks like very interesting and I think I'll have to pick one up when they become available.
mono-poly
Wogglebugs, noiserings, slope detectors and clock dividers are my most used tools in my noodles.
Most stuff is already mentioned in the topic but slow glides between changes also works well to.
chamomileshark
I like this thread 8_)
frijitz
kindredlost wrote:
Ian, your ChaQuO and BiNTic are two items on the "short list" that I want to build.

The BiNTic is a cool device, but unfortunately I can't take credit for it. It was originally designed by Jan Hall and published in Electronotes (#92). Interestingly, this article directly followed my writeup of my ADAR envelope generator, which is available at bridechamber and which is the precursor to the 4x4.

grin

Ian
dude
there is no short answer..well for me there is a short answer and it is modcan. but the concepts could be applied to any system, bruce just happens to include it a lot more. all his recent vcos have a ton of morphing potential in various ways. modulators do too. and many of his modules have vc movements built in. he has the 66 control module and cv recorder which allow for memory to be incorporated easily and simply into the control side of patches. i could go on but you get the point. i believe a lot of his work and designs geared towards what you seem to be seeking...but of course these thing can be done on any system with planning and patching. things like mixers/switches/panners...complex waveforms mixed together with vc control of mix. vcas everywhere. the concept of modulating the modulator is big.
7thDanSound
One thing though that I find is key -be careful not to overmodulate stuff! Like mentioned earlier, "within constraints". That's key IMO. Otherwise you quickly end up with just noise more or less.
jenamu6
7thDanSound wrote:
One thing though that I find is key -be careful not to overmodulate stuff! Like mentioned earlier, "within constraints". That's key IMO. Otherwise you quickly end up with just noise more or less.


Yep been in the more or less lots a times.

Use cv mixers.... I like to take 1 out of the Wogglebug and 1 out of my sequencer......put them in a mixer and use that cv to go to a quantizer, instant tonal semi random melodies.
And use attuenators ofcourse

But.....I suck at dowing the very slow evolving things.....my attention span is...wow look at that?
mono-poly
7thDanSound wrote:
One thing though that I find is key -be careful not to overmodulate stuff! Like mentioned earlier, "within constraints". That's key IMO. Otherwise you quickly end up with just noise more or less.


Always a chalenge to find the balance between noise and boring.
Oldstench
Thanks for starting this thread. I've been in an inspirational slump recently and this might be just the kick in the nuts I need to get back to making some music.
7thDanSound
mono-poly wrote:
Always a chalenge to find the balance between noise and boring.


Oh yes! And it's individual too, for composer and listener alike
laserpalace
I've been delving more into this and have found logic modules to help a great deal. Sending slow cycles to something like intellijel's j/k flip flop lets compositions grow. My Noisering keeps the shifts fairly random as well.
diophantine
kindredlost wrote:
7) A minimum of two mid/upper range tones with a lower octave tone with all three in a specific tuning or key signature. Occasionally transpose all this. Quantizers are paramount help here. This of course is a classic ambient/minimal tonal idea but it can be good with microtonal pitch or alternate tunings too.

Some great suggestions in your list I hadn't thought of! On this one in particular, have any recommendations to resources (online or print) about this? I am vaguely aware of it from some liner notes, but would be curious to read more in-depth discussion and descriptions.

Also, how do most folks get their LFOs or slew limiters running at varying odd (or prime) intervals? Do you just try and time it on a clock, or is there some trick I'm not thinking of? Resetting them with a clock divider wouldn't be ideal, as you'd lose part of the waveform, unless you just used it to try and get timing synchronized.

jenamu6 wrote:
But.....I suck at dowing the very slow evolving things.....my attention span is...wow look at that?

Haha, I experience much of the same thing. While I frequently listen to such things (Monos, Radigue, Reich, etc.) straight through (and often want to hit play again at the end), I struggle with creating pieces that evolve anywhere near as slow. Somehow I manage it every couple of years, though.
mono-poly
diophantine thx man!
rezzn8r
the noise ring has received a lot of props in this thread, and justifiably so. Its Chance and Change controls allow for quick and easy configuration for voltage patterns that alter over time.
Clock/Pulse Dividers are well represented in the comments above. Even dividers are cool, but I have found odd divisions to be the most rewarding for Noodles.
Slow modulation sources are also important in this context. nrdvrgr mentions the uLFO. I don't own one, but I assume it goes slower than others. I have the Modcan Quad Digital, and that runs down to glacial speeds. Slow speeds are important if your patch is going to evolve. Something as simple as a 5 minute cycle on a VCF's cutoff can produce fairly dynamic results.
I am a big fan of the self-playing patch. Good luck in your experiments, and please share your results!
It's motherfucking bacon yo nanners screaming goo yo SlayerBadger!
rezzn8r
diophantine wrote:

Also, how do most folks get their LFOs or slew limiters running at varying odd (or prime) intervals? Do you just try and time it on a clock, or is there some trick I'm not thinking of? Resetting them with a clock divider wouldn't be ideal, as you'd lose part of the waveform, unless you just used it to try and get timing synchronized.
.


The Modcan Quad Digital has an internal divider (1 to 10) that can synch to an incoming clock signal (possibly already divided down from the master clock). It can reset, or synch the internal waveforms.
Johnisfaster
Id say the doepfer a152 would be perfect for this kind of thing. 8 track and holds!
dougcl
dude wrote:
there is no short answer..well for me there is a short answer and it is modcan. but the concepts could be applied to any system, bruce just happens to include it a lot more. all his recent vcos have a ton of morphing potential in various ways. modulators do too. and many of his modules have vc movements built in. he has the 66 control module and cv recorder which allow for memory to be incorporated easily and simply into the control side of patches. i could go on but you get the point. i believe a lot of his work and designs geared towards what you seem to be seeking...but of course these thing can be done on any system with planning and patching. things like mixers/switches/panners...complex waveforms mixed together with vc control of mix. vcas everywhere. the concept of modulating the modulator is big.


I agree. You really need to get a Modcan in order to make self generating patches. It seems the more experience you have, and the smarter you are, the more likely it is that you will own Modcan. I've seen it happen here many times.
dude
dougcl wrote:
dude wrote:
there is no short answer..well for me there is a short answer and it is modcan. but the concepts could be applied to any system, bruce just happens to include it a lot more. all his recent vcos have a ton of morphing potential in various ways. modulators do too. and many of his modules have vc movements built in. he has the 66 control module and cv recorder which allow for memory to be incorporated easily and simply into the control side of patches. i could go on but you get the point. i believe a lot of his work and designs geared towards what you seem to be seeking...but of course these thing can be done on any system with planning and patching. things like mixers/switches/panners...complex waveforms mixed together with vc control of mix. vcas everywhere. the concept of modulating the modulator is big.


I agree. You really need to get a Modcan in order to make self generating patches. It seems the more experience you have, and the smarter you are, the more likely it is that you will own Modcan. I've seen it happen here many times.


d'oh!

i mentioned numerous times in there that my choices and bias are obvious and it is more than possible on any system. your cynicism as usual brings nothing at all helpful to the thread. what insecurity of yours makes it so difficult to let people voice their opinions without you shitting on them from behind the safety of your computer? it would be really cool if you could leave your personal attacks out of it and actually share some of your experience which is valid and valuable. i don't care if you don't agree with me whatsoever but you are old enough to keep your mouth shut if you don't have something to add right?

f u
dougcl
dude wrote:

i mentioned numerous times in there that my choices and bias are obvious and it is more than possible on any system. your cynicism as usual brings nothing at all helpful to the thread. what insecurity of yours makes it so difficult to let people voice their opinions without you shitting on them from behind the safety of your computer? it would be really cool if you could leave your personal attacks out of it and actually share some of your experience which is valid and valuable. i don't care if you don't agree with me whatsoever but you are old enough to keep your mouth shut if you don't have something to add right?

f u


It's easy to say that you need to buy Modcan, but it is utterly false. You know this to be false, but then say it anyway. It's irresponsible, and I am calling you on it. Boo hoo. I am not hiding behind anything as you know. I am not afraid to voice this simple thing to you or anyone else. I say nothing here I would not say to you in person. If you were standing in front of me right now and you said that you need Modcan to make self gemnerating patches, I would laugh at you, and probably make fun. It's no different here, I hope.
dude
irresponsible is a moderator derailing a thread to attack people voicing opinions.

you are badly misreading my post if you think i am saying that anybody here needs to buy anything.

man, you can focus on something useful or you can pretend to be a valiant defender of reason up here in this community that you frequently are an asshole in.

and if you are unaware of fact vs opinion, i will share with you that i am voicing my opinion up here. that is based on my experience. my experience and opinion have nothing to do with you so feel free to put me ignore but quit pissing.
Chuck E. Jesus
dougcl wrote:
I say nothing here I would not say to you in person.


i would say "hey doug, what's up?"
rezzn8r
having been on the wrong end of one of doug's tantrums in the past, I would just say ignore him, dude.
theantiroman
hey mod, can't we just get along?

Sorry I have a filter in my brain that turns everything into puns...

sad banana
sduck
jeez dougcl, that was totally uncalled for. And off topic I might add. Lighten up.
Christopher Winkels
I have to agree.

Dude's original comment was very well prefaced with:

"well for me there is a short answer and it is modcan. but the concepts could be applied to any system"

That simultaneously flies his colours yet allows for the reality that there are other good options. There was no need to jump on his throat for such an innocuous statement. Had someone else inserted Doepfer/Dotcom/Blacet/Serge would the statement be any more or less valid?
mono-poly
Pfurmel
Back on topic,
Last night I had a patch going using the Wogglebug as the basis. I had it influencing the VILFO which was clocking a random sequence on the A155. I also used it to open VCA's and trigger the envelator. I got some nice random evolving stuff. Great fun.
Nelson Baboon
Christopher Winkels wrote:
I have to agree.

Dude's original comment was very well prefaced with:

"well for me there is a short answer and it is modcan. but the concepts could be applied to any system"

That simultaneously flies his colours yet allows for the reality that there are other good options. There was no need to jump on his throat for such an innocuous statement. Had someone else inserted Doepfer/Dotcom/Blacet/Serge would the statement be any more or less valid?


Except he immediately followed that with the 'fact' that modcan includes more options to allow you to construct these patches: "but the concepts could be applied to any system, bruce just happens to include it a lot more." It might just be careless wording, but the way it was worded irked me a bit, and had I not just run across this now, I'd have probably thrown in something sarcastic also.
bwhittington
kindredlost wrote:
Generative patches are a passion after my own heart . . .

[snip] a million great patch tips [/snip]


Post of the Month.

Cheers,
Brian
theantiroman
Could one record CV with a boss looping pedal?

I'd imagine you could roughly follow the path of sending gates out to the looper, recording a pattern of them, then sending it's output into envelopes-> osc...

I don't have one but I think it would work and I could see that helping with self generating patches.
dude
yes i have careless wording. i will certainly agree about that. as for recording cv, nope you need modcan for that at least at the moment but other options are coming around.
Yohda
Quote:
as for recording cv, nope you need modcan for that at least at the moment but other options are coming around.

Subotnick was recording CV long before Modcan came out.

http://www.buzzclick-music.com/mort_lore.html

So you don't "need" Modcan. 8_)
bwhittington
theantiroman wrote:
Could one record CV with a boss looping pedal?


I don't know if the Boss pedal will record DC, but I do know that the . . . Modcan CV Recorder does. (hides) lol

Cheers,
Brian

EDIT: Gaa, two other comments slipped in, me so slow. waah
theantiroman
Well you can record CV onto a tape deck right?

I've read the little 'mort' paper on CV recording, def interested if the boss looper would do it... I guess tehre is one real way to find out!

Right now I am thinking I could record loops that are just audio then send them into an A119, set threshhold to set the gate levels, then take the gate out as a sort of simulation CV output...

here is a totally naive question:

Are gate outputs just bursts of CV?
dude
i was being tongue in cheek considering all the flack i ve been getting for my poorly worded initial comment. yeah there are a couple ways to record cv. i think flame has a device which can do some of that there has been a looming asys cv recorder for a while. it may even be out i have no idea. oh and the harvestman tyme sefari.
i would qualify that it may be easiest to use the modcan for the recording as it is one single unit dedicated to the cause as opposed to a collection of equipment/modules to record and then play back.

i haven't had coffee yet so if you are feeling like you want to attack me, give me an hour so i can at least be awake enough to read your replies.
haricots
dudes in trouble. the anti-Modcan league is gathering strength. for god sakes make sure your thoughts and sentences are properly formed, logically and grammatically. meh
Yohda
Quote:
i haven't had coffee yet so if you are feeling like you want to attack me, give me an hour so i can at least be awake enough to read your replies.

Hey Dude, I wasn't attacking you, I was just pointing an alternative.

Take your time and good coffee ! Chugging Beers

Quote:
dudes in trouble. the anti-Modcan league is gathering strength.

So pointing an alternative made me anti-Modcan ? seriously, i just don't get it

I think Modcan is very great, I don't understand...
dude
Yohda wrote:
Quote:
i haven't had coffee yet so if you are feeling like you want to attack me, give me an hour so i can at least be awake enough to read your replies.

Hey Dude, I wasn't attacking you, I was just pointing an alternative.

Take your time and good coffee ! Chugging Beers


no no man, not you. hihi you were offering helpful information related to the topic and you are totally right that mort had this shit figured waaaaay before! his process is somewhat cumbersome though as compared to some of the dc capable single units available at present.

anyway, the recording of long form cv meanderings is a wonderful way to get really interesting evolving patches.
Nelson Baboon
haricots wrote:
dudes in trouble. the anti-Modcan league is gathering strength. for god sakes make sure your thoughts and sentences are properly formed, logically and grammatically. meh


yeah, it's a good thing we all communicate telepathically.
7thDanSound
Recording high pitched audio that's amplitude modulated by a VCA and then playing it back through an envelope follower should enable CV recording. And I guess it'd work just fine on a tape delay too.

Sarcasm and smugness I don't quite see how it benefits well, anyone. Cutting someone some slack for excessive format love and sloppy morning wording (which wasn't so bad, was it really?) shouldn't be below anyones dignity.
theantiroman
@ 7th Dan Sound:

Sick!

So is that :

audio into VCA with the VCA being opened and closed rapidly in some manner. then VCA to recording device.

playback (CV retrieval): recorded CV to envelope follower then enve. follower output to whatever you want to follow CV?
MrBiggs
Great great thread (well most of it anyway).

I have a pile of good modules for this kind of thing -- I should do as the OP mentioned, set up a patch, hit record, and leave; then listen to it later (I draw all day for work and long evolving electronica is perfect for a soundtrack to such tasks).

I second the post of the month nomination for kindredlost.
dkcg
Not sure if this applies, but a bit of history of electronic control. When the first motion control cameras were invented, they would record control voltages/signals onto acetate disks (I think it was acetate) to play back motions later. I believe Hitchcock was a big user of this method.

Recording control signals has been around a long time even before synths.
7thDanSound
theantiroman wrote:
@ 7th Dan Sound:

Sick!

So is that :

audio into VCA with the VCA being opened and closed rapidly in some manner. then VCA to recording device.

playback (CV retrieval): recorded CV to envelope follower then enve. follower output to whatever you want to follow CV?


Yes, that's exactly how I imagined it hihi
wmonk
And with a few changes, the ACX P-Sequencer will do the trick of CV recording too. Etch the pcb, get a few components and a panel. For less then 50$ you're the man! http://www.acxsynth.com/pseq/pseqfr.htm
diophantine
Just for fun, I tried to record modulation signals on a couple of loopers (Boss DD-7 and Akai E2 Headrush). The Akai I felt doubtful about, since it already has issues dealing with hot (non-modular) signals.

With an audio-rate saw-wave both did ok, despite some distortion issues and the levels being severely lower (the output is not as hot as the input).
With LFO-rate AC signals, the DD-7 performed similar to how it did for audio-rates, but the levels were even lower. The E2 didn't even pass the signal through, let alone loop it.
With a DC envelope, The DD-7 still looped it, but the levels were even lower still (I could barely detect it). Nada with the E2.

Perhaps an attenuator and a pre-amp before & after the DD-7 would help, but I am sure it would still not be very close to what was originally intended. It seems that the slow frequencies is as much of an issue as DC.

BTW, was just using a simple patch of osc -> VCA, and controlling the VCA with the looper's output.

7thDanSound wrote:
theantiroman wrote:
@ 7th Dan Sound:

Sick!

So is that :

audio into VCA with the VCA being opened and closed rapidly in some manner. then VCA to recording device.

playback (CV retrieval): recorded CV to envelope follower then enve. follower output to whatever you want to follow CV?


Yes, that's exactly how I imagined it hihi


Yeah, this is similar to Subotnick's approach mentioned in an article linked to above.

I don't have an envelope follower or preamp, but I tried this with the DD-7 (just dumping the output into the VCA's CV in) and got promising results.
Demi Jon
maybe if you watch this video by the excellent Keith Fullerton Whitman in HD and look real close you can steal some ideas from his set-up:




If this embedded video doesn't work, here's the link
theantiroman
that is sick.
theantiroman
Well there is a korg sampler going into the modular........................
Art
This thread is great. I didn't even know CV can be recorded, wow... Thanks, guys. Guinness ftw! Envelope follower is now in my wish list!
Mike Fun
sb wrote:
I've tried the Allen Strange tail chasing type stuff and this is great for generating randomly changing cv...


What section is that in? I'd like to try some of his examples.
zerosum
This thread is great! applause

Unfortunately this is a thread i think i am going to take more out of than give to.
I'll keep a link to this thread handy for when I find something cool to add,
but a lot has been said here that is hard to top. 8_)
kindredlost
Another example of a generative patch with enough modules to give it some interesting diversity. I recorded this yesterday for this thread.

A few more details are in the YouTube description. Sorry about the poor video, I gotta get a new camera and I'm totally stupid when it comes to video formats etc..

FWIW I agree with Dude about Modcan. I am more interested in having a patch that generates the unexpected but within limits. I'm not really interested in recording aspects of the patch, whether cv or audio. Yet I have used loopers and delays so I guess that is a "purist" fail. There is something magical about a device making unexpected and pleasing sounds on it's own that are interesting and diverse.

Lyonel
Very Beautiful !
mono-poly
kindredlost Cool patch!


And yeah a cv recorder is one of the things i'd use to make a self generating patch. Kinda boring imo having something loop. Totaly something i'd not want.
7thDanSound
kindredlost: thumbs up totally otherworldly!
zanadar
Uuurggh.... reading such threads is dangerous for my bank account.

BUT!
As a friend of mine said: "I support the accrual of fun over the accrual of funds".

Another thing I've been playing with is finding a semi-random source (which like a radio station) and I know this isn't "self-generating" (Wherever the self starts here I'm not sure)...but using that as an injection into clocking, etc, with some resampling through delays...so like pushing the whole mess down hill.
pugix
Nothing like a revived thread!

Lately I've been incorporating a Ciat-Lonbarde Cocoquantus into the modular. The cocoquantus contains a cluster of five oscillators that cross modulate in ways that are extremely conducive to interesting evolving patches. Besides the five VCOs, internally it contains 10 sample & holds, as well as a switching matrix to change the internal patch (what VCOs modulate what other ones). My favorite outcome so far:

http://pugix.com/synth/petal-on-its-own/
chamomileshark
Listening to it now Richard - interesting, thanks for sharing. Right now I'm working on my first generative patch
matttech
i did a good one a while back centred around the wogglebug:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/spitezoo-experimental-lab/wogglebuggery[/s]

not sure if this is what you mean, but it certainly did a shit load of endlessly evolving stuff without me having to do a lot whilst recording (obviously i couldn't help myself, and got amongst it to spice things up even further!)

blurb from soundcloud:

"did some cool Wogglebug tomfoolery this evening....lots of fun. had the random gate bursts going into the a160 clock divider, with the different divisions triggering 2 different envelopes and 3 channels of Maths, all mixed together in a mixer and multed out to both the FM input of the AFG and the RS110's lowpass cutoff (with the AFG going into it)

then i used one of the divisions to trigger the RS60, enveloping the Oakley VCA with a nice spiky envelope - multed the output of the Oakley into 4 different processing modules (BBD, SoS, Spring Reverb, Borg 2), modulated the fuck out of them with the mix of 4 envelopes from earlier, in some cases inverted, and sent them all into the 4 inputs of a sequential switch - this was then stepped through by one of the a160's divided outputs. it created fucking havoc!

basically the patch switches through 4 heavily modulated and effected versions of the random gate triggered, filtered, and pitch modulated AFG outs. halfway through i start pissing about with various settings on the FX, and switch on Maths' cycling mode (on both channels).....messing with the cycle speed until it reaches audio rate FM.

i mean, you've gotta laugh, haven't you?

this barmy sound is then layered over the top of a 3 track recording of some earlier Woggle-buggery, using its various stepped and slewed CV outs.....along with some Woggle oscs if memory serves me correctly....which it probably doesn't"
richard
Quote:
I've had a patch generating something that sounded planned and by the time I got the recording going it was over, never to return


in my experience this always happens hihi
pugix
chamomileshark wrote:
Listening to it now Richard - interesting, thanks for sharing. Right now I'm working on my first generative patch


Thanks. I think 'self-generating patch' covers more territory than what is called 'generative'. The latter is how Brian Eno used to describe some of his work. I did some generative stuff with software called Noatikl. And it's a lot different from the kinds of control that I get with the cocoquantus, and from what you could get from most self-generating patches, I think.

http://pugix.com/synth/tag/generative/
thebrotherspus
i just thought i'd bump this thread. i really enjoyed reading through it. i'm a noob trying to get into this kind of "self evolving" "self generating" patching.
anybody got more to add to it? i'd love to hear it!
Pascal
on the modular I use gates and divisions to trigger different sounds, gate delays, random cv's and sequences with changing step and direction.

I find the Coco really shines in this direction, you can check Richard (Pugix) blog and Ciat Lonbarde forum for some great information about how this damn thing works.

strettara
Very lovely and mysterious. Ciat-Lonbarde is definitely in my future, but not soon, alas.
amnesia
loads of CV some ASR and DA

Pascal
amnesia, sounds great, special the first one, do you remember patch details
amnesia
I have, just this minute, pulled the patch apart!

Its just 2 ASRs, cv into the Freeze of DA and the usual suspects VCO Optomix etc
Electrostatic
I've just started mucking about with simple self generating patches.
This is a really simple one that I think sounds quite nice. But it really does need more cv randomness going on, especially on the A-143's.

This isn't really evolving, but its a start I guess.

Pascal
this is nice
Electrostatic
Pascal wrote:
this is nice


Cheers Pascal.

I tried adding more CV to it (see below), but I kinda prefer the more simple version of it. Sometimes less is more.

odecahedron
What a pleasure to discover this thread, so much useful ideas in here and I'm gagging for my 3rd osillator and yu triple dividers to show up (any day now) to try some of these suggestions out.

Not sure if its been mentioned (probably), but I've had some sweet results from a hot vcf freq (lo cut off, hi resonance) with the TTLFO on slowest possible rate/0.5 multiplier and on random waveform, then modulating the cutoff with another lfo with a medium tempo sine. The hotness of the vcf picks out and "spikes" eemingly random pitches and is 'mismatched against the faster lfo. Maybe not so much generative but it took a longtime to get boring.
jonah
This thread reminded me how amazing MIDI is for this purpose. The upshot to digital quantization is that it let's you perform some pretty amazing transforms/deforms! smile Unfortunately, it's not as forgiving as CV and feedback can easily choke out your processor if it isn't carefully controlled.

Is there a modular MIDI module? I know there was a lot of strange rack gear in the 80s. spinning Perhaps Yamaha or Akai?

Maybe something like a cross between CME bitstream and MIDIpal that takes MIDI in one end and spit it out the other with some operations in the middle. Hopefully, with CV input and multiple MIDI ins n outs.
sausmatoe
Awesome thread! So many cool ideas and sounds SlayerBadger!
wsy
The nature of music is repetition in pitch, rhythm, and dynamics - but not too much!

Here's a few of the tricks I use:

1) Slides in pitch usually work. Slides in rhythm don't. So - if you're taking a
varying pitch CV and adding a sine or a ramp, that usually works esthetically.
But if you're modulating a rhythm, that usually won't (there are, of course, exceptions).

2) Quantizing a signal can be good. VARYING the quantization (say, by adding a slow
ramp or slow sine) to the pre-quantized signal can be even better.

3) Don't worry about relative primality. Unless you are absolutely OCD about getting
your LFOs into perfect 3:2 time, you WILL have relative primality, and unless your
LFOs have some phaselocking (say, thru the power supply voltages) they won't
stay phaselocked for long as they warm up.

4) Infrasonic random (like from an Oakley Noise Dual Filter, which itself is an extended
clone of a Moog percussive module that nobody ever remembers but that CoTK has
cloned) is a powerful random. I believe Buchla also has a similar module. But-
you can create it yourself by taking noise > sample and hold > slew limiter, and vary
the S/H and slew limit time constants to get the durations you want.

5) Random "sequencers" are god-in-a-box for this. There are a couple out there-
the basic principle is to have a shift register of bits; the shift register recirculates,
copying the lowermost bit to the uppermost (or vice versa). BUT - there's a
finite chance probability of mutation - of flipping the bit. The resulting full contents
of the shift register goes to a DAC and is used as a CV. This works amazingly
well to autogenerate melodic hooks... the probability of a bit flip can be set really
low to create a slowly evolving theme; i.e. one bit flip every 10 or 20 seconds
works really well for keeping attention (disclosure: I wrote the TTLFOGRE code
that lets an SSL Tap Tempo LFO or Modulation Orgydo exactly this). But you can
do it with the Euro Random Looping Sequencer too:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60740&highlight=rand om+sequencer

6) Change the timbre of a repeating phrase. Say you've got a Dotcom Q960 or
other wall-o-knobs sequencer pounding out the same couple of bars over and
over - it gets boring fast. So, use a phaser or wavefolder, CVed at some relatively
slow pace. If you're using a filter, wiggle the cutoff. Wiggle the resonance (if your
filter has CV resonance like the Dotcom Q106). Ping that filter with a rhythmic
square wave to get a beat.

7) Fade across several chains. The SSL 1520 Segwencer does this, but only
for offsetted voltages, which makes it hard to use on an LFO output. Another
way is to use an Oakley Multimix, which has attenuverter inputs. A third way is
to use a Dotcom Q125 CV Processor to invert a CV and then use the inverted and
noninverted signals as inputs to a pair of VCAs (or alternatively, use the Walsh
trick and run the envelope signal to the filter cutoff in a relatively "normalled" patch
subchain.

Darn it, I gotta make a demoing video on this.

- Bill
odecahedron
i noticed a couple posters mentioning the uLFO for suuuper slooow morphs ... but im not a euro-guy, so whats the slowest 5U LFO module ávailable.

edit: i mean the TTLFO can go pretty damn slow with the multiplier on 0.5, but is there anything slower ?
wsy
Here's a self-generating patch; the "controllers" for the patch are an SSL Quad
LFO, an SSL TTLFO with the TTLFOGRE chip (natch!), and an Oakley Noise/Dual
Filter. There's some quantization thrown in too.


Or here (direct link:) http://youtu.be/xqUo1cZrY1I

- Bill
JeshuaW
I find the Vulcan Modulator with the Intellijel expansion is great for randomizing your patches. The two lfo's can cross modulate (and that can be attenuated) and you can input your own custom waveforms into the expansion with reset jacks for each lfo. smile

I've also heard some really good random from Buchla land, surprised no one mentioned Don's instruments.
Evns
Yeah, the Vulcan & Mind Meld are fantastic!
I just recently came across the trick of putting a constantly low DC offset from something like the 8NU8R into the CV control of the Vulcan to make it cycle even more slowly than having the knobs at 0. It's probably still not as slow as the uLFO, but its really, really slow. thumbs up
Michael O.
I think one of the most interesting ways of getting a self-composing/playing patch going is to set up a chaotic feedback system. Basically, you start with at least two elements that can be linear, like the outputs of a cycling voltage controllable dual envelope generator (Maths, Envelator, DUSG, 281, etc.) or some sort of other voltage controllable cyclical waveform generators (VCO, Sport Mod, SSG, and the like) and have those two linear elements patched to modulate each other, like a tail chasing oscillator patch (that is, for instance, Maths ch.1 out multed to ch.4 Both mod in, and ch.4 out multed to ch.1 Both mod in, both set to cycle). Then, you need a voltage controllable nonlinear element (Wogglebug, Serge Random Source, Sport Mod patched as a stepped/smooth random source, 265/6, vc slewed sample+hold, etc.) thrown into the feedback loop (in the aforementioned example, take the outputs of the Maths ch.1+4 and the nonlinear element and feed them all into a mixer, a polarizing one is obviously great there, and send the output to VC ins on each of the elements, like Rise/Fall mod in on the maths and the VC in on the nonlinear element). The outputs are taken from the mixer, the individual elements, etc., which gives you a wide range of modulation sources and destinations to patch into/out of other parts of the modular, like other feedback loops, for instance, to create a very complex non-repetitive self-generating system.

Attenuation of modulation and the initial settings of each of the elements are obviously paramount here, and the whole combo can result in a wildly large array of complex modulations that won't repeat but will still have some semblance of structure, as opposed to utter randomness or noise, to patch around your system. Also, as with everything in modular synthesis land, there's a total infinitude of ways in which to go about patching this sort of thing. This is basically what's at work in this patch that I posted in the Tunes section but is somewhat relevant, though it may not be the most musical example it does show the really wide range of timbres and modulations you can get with even a relatively simple iteration of this chaotic system concept (the only adjustments I make are to mute different voices/parts in and out on the M9 mixer and to switch modes on the sport mod a couple of times):
HueMonContact
@Michael O.

Nice patch! I love the sounds.
kindredlost
@Michael O.

One of the best generative pieces I've heard in - well forever!

Sounds like the Krell have returned!
pugix
Great patch, Michael O. we're not worthy

Thanks for that video!
Michael O.
Thanks a lot guys, I will definitely have to post more in the future, which is a possibility now that I have access to a camera and a computer (I'd bet one day iphones will have video editing capabilities, assuming that they don't already and I'm just ignorant of it hah).

For more patch concept inspiration check out Ian Fritz's website for his writings on chaos theory in electronic circuit design, most of which is very technical and well beyond my realms of expertise or even proper understanding, but a lot of the more intelligible stuff is applicable on the patching/musical side of things. Also, the key for a lot of interesting non-repetitive self-generating patches is feedback that's just on the verge of becoming wildly uncontrollable noise, but is not yet so. It can go a long way in creating controlled chaos that you can predictably alter that can be used to great effect on both the modulation/control and audio sides of things. Further, if things are even more judiciously attenuated and controlled, then the same concepts can be applied to any patch (regardless of whether it's a simple monosynth voice or an entire self-orchestrating complex system) to add variety and nonlinearities that are more interesting than more typical, less controllable random and pseudorandom modulation sources.
strettara
I use generative methods for most of what I do. Feedback is of course the key. Personally I prefer to use S&H to control the oscillators and the 149-1 for the envelopes. This is because the 149-1 modulates in quite a controllable way so that you can have moments in which envelopes are sprightly and gay, others in which they are mere sluggish slowcoaches, without them being chaotically mixed together. On the other hand, the S&H for the oscillators is less predictable than the 149-1, which is my preference. Add in some RM and FM to taste (often combining the oscillator signals in a ring modulator and using that as an FM source). The Z3000 and the cyclebox both excel at this kind of thing, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.

I like to set up a patch which can then be played with a bit of judicious wiggling - i.e. the patch is really an instrument you can play. Here's an example, set up in exactly the way I described, using the cyclebox:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/strettara/morning-meditation[/s]
chamomileshark
I think it was this thread that got me thinking about having a go myself. I recorded this a while back and seeing as the thread has been revived I thought I would post.

It's my first attempt, there are no feedback loops but apart from a little reverb nothing was touched or fiddled with - just sat back and hit record and hope I didn't hit one of the minute long silences.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/chamomile-shark/permutations[/s]


Edit - can someone confirm the above is working for them? I could not get the embed to work until I edited https to http
pugix
Yes, it works. Nice! How did you do it without using feedback?
Michael O.
@Chamomoileshark: That is way cool, digging the audio-rate modulation squishiness; is it done with 300 series, I think that's what I see in the picture, if so, some wogglebug action going on?

@Strettara: very nice spacey atmosphere, I need to invest in a proper digital oscillator as opposed to the miniwave wavetable lookup I use. Is there any external effecting or is the cool echo-like amplitude dynamic just patched in there?
strettara
Z-DSP.
chamomileshark
thanks, here are my notes on the patch

Timing - Semi random triggers S&H to In of Blacet Window Comparitor. Level modulated by stepped voltage from Wogglebug

Pitch - Gate also to Sequantiser (select modulated for random order) – unquantised goes to Frequency control. {Poss two Sequantisers to mixer or Jag, both modulated Sel]

Lin FM – modulator oscillator frequency modulated by Wogglebug smooth or stepped voltage

to Borg 1 LPG (mod at max, switch to VCA, freq at zero).

Envelator – both A mod and R mod to max – taking one unquantised sequantiser output each.

Position in space

Standard output into 2nd mixolator – outputs X and Y to mixer. Z at 12 o’clock? Jag output to slew (or it clicks) and then to Z mod.

It is basically a single path patch.


I did a further slightly less random patch that I'll dig out which used tail chasing with four voices - I'll put that up sometime.
strettara
This time a completely self-generating patch I can't begin to explain - suffice it to say that 2 Z3000's and a cyclebox (in 0010 mode) are beating the crap out of each other while a couple of envelators look on laughing. A schoolyard fight. Someone should really call the teacher.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/strettara/generative-5[/s]
Evns
These are great examples!
I'm curious if someone could elaborate on the finer details of the aforementioned Allen Strange "tail chasing patch". Is it as simple as finding any two sources that will modulate one another? I've searched the forum and even tried to buy the PDF of Allen Strange's book, but it's not offered anymore by McGraw-Hill.
BKehew
Just bought something I've wanted for some time, a Psychtone (also Psyctone). This was something I'd seen as a project in Popular Electronics in the 70s, self-composing patch. Predates the Triadex MUSE Box (sold mine when I needed money, sadly, loved it) and post-dates the Raymond Scott Electronium.

But it's a similar self-composing melody box. The one I got works ok, will find a way to mutate it into a module. Re-Synthesis makes great 5U panels for custom things like this. Adding some jacks for CV control will be fun.

http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Feb1971/PE_Feb1971.htm
pugix
Here's a completely self-generating patch, controlled by the Cocoquantus. The timber is made by passing triangle wave VCOs from the Cocoquantus through BugBrand Low Pass Gates and Frequency Shifter. What makes the Cocoquantus so powerful is its five inter-modulating VCOs, each of which can be switched to high, medium, or low frequency. In the lowest range the LFO period can be quite long, making for very long, slowing changing patterns. And the ten sample and holds take unpredictability to the limit.

http://pugix.com/synth/prediction/
shortsleeves
strettara wrote:
Here's an example, set up in exactly the way I described, using the cyclebox:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/strettara/morning-meditation[/s]

That-was-so-fucking-fantastic! Thank you. I love self-generating patches, and this one's just became one of my favourite we're not worthy

Cheers,
Lukasz
strettara
Thanks - it did work out nicely, though I should emphasise that I was changing some parameters manually while recording it, mostly the FM amount and waveforms on the cyclebox, I should think (can't remember). But the basic patch - the modulation path, envelope parameters and so on - were all automatic.

Sometimes you get lucky setting up a patch which has a load of sweet spots, and in five minutes it's ready to go, and other times you can spend hours trying to get something to work and it refuses to! This was one of the happy accidents.
Leoespejo
This is an exciting treat. Guinness ftw!

I haven't read every single entry here, anyway i didn't see that anybody mention The Toppobrillo Sport Modulator which i think working with any random source is amazing for Self Generating patches.

Here you have my first attempt to get into this world.

I'd say this is some Self Generative Madness.

HueMonContact
Here's a self generative patch I was working on yesterday.
the Heart and soul of the patch is a combo of the moskwa in random mode, ulfo, mfb dual lfo, noisering, zorlon cannon, 2 x envelators and maths.
Anti & Uncle OSC w/ ZDSP Reverb HP LP program and a little tape echo.

soul
So many things to try. Excellent thread!
Electrostatic
Just did this last night.
All Doepfer modules. Kinda sounds like The Clangers and R2-D2 having a laser battle... or something.



Cheers.
teethgrinder
nice one thumbs up

can you explain further your patch ?
Electrostatic
teethgrinder wrote:
nice one thumbs up

can you explain further your patch ?


Cheers Teethgrinder.
It was basically just lots of cross modulation between 2 A-110's and an A-143-4, with added modulation on one of the vco's by an A-143-1.

There are just two waveforms used as audio, a triangle and a square, both from the same vco. One audio signal goes to a vca via the wasp filter, and the other via the LPG. Both filters are being modulated by various things.
And then the vca's are being controlled by two squarewave lfo's from the A-143-4.

For some reason I ended up with the audio from the ring mod going into the PLL which was just modulating the wasp filter. Must have patched it wrong from what I had in my head, but seemed to work out alright.

Cheers
teethgrinder
thank you for your explanation , will try it at home thumbs up
Milanm
Michael O. wrote:
I think one of the most interesting ways of getting a self-composing/playing patch going is to set up a chaotic feedback system. Basically, you start with at least two elements that can be linear, like the outputs of a cycling voltage controllable dual envelope generator (Maths, Envelator, DUSG, 281, etc.) or some sort of other voltage controllable cyclical waveform generators (VCO, Sport Mod, SSG, and the like) and have those two linear elements patched to modulate each other, like a tail chasing oscillator patch (that is, for instance, Maths ch.1 out multed to ch.4 Both mod in, and ch.4 out multed to ch.1 Both mod in, both set to cycle). Then, you need a voltage controllable nonlinear element (Wogglebug, Serge Random Source, Sport Mod patched as a stepped/smooth random source, 265/6, vc slewed sample+hold, etc.) thrown into the feedback loop (in the aforementioned example, take the outputs of the Maths ch.1+4 and the nonlinear element and feed them all into a mixer, a polarizing one is obviously great there, and send the output to VC ins on each of the elements, like Rise/Fall mod in on the maths and the VC in on the nonlinear element). The outputs are taken from the mixer, the individual elements, etc., which gives you a wide range of modulation sources and destinations to patch into/out of other parts of the modular, like other feedback loops, for instance, to create a very complex non-repetitive self-generating system.


This is absolutely amazing, tried to patch this last night and think I got it mostly right. Had a good few hours of messing with the settings. Blissful chaotic nonsense ensued.

Just want to check Im understanding correctly:

Maths ch.1 to mult then to ch.4 Both in,
Maths ch.4 to mult then to ch.1 Both in, (both set to cycle).

Maths ch.1+4 secondary out to a mixer along with the nonlinear element out (Noisering or Turing Machine in my case)

Send the output to VC ins on each of the elements, like Rise/Fall mod in on the maths and the VC in on the nonlinear element.

Mixer output mult'd to various modulation destinations as well as the mult'd Maths channel1+4 outputs.

Sound right?

Thanks for that post, its been a real eye opener.
BKehew
I made a preset for the Alesis Andromeda called "Patch This" years ago - the name came about as it was very wide-ranging, compared to most synths of the time, certainly shows off the routing and random power of the old A6.

Someone may have it as a download? I'm not away from home or I'd post what it sounds like - anyone have one to try and upload?
BHC303
Great thread, looking forward to trying a few techniques listed here out soon w00t

Guinness ftw!
Opus110
One of my favorite thread on Muff. Glad to see it revived.
Isolde and Isobelle
An excellent thread - overlooked by myself, until now.

I am starting to build another case which I intend to be used solely for ''self generating'' patches. I have a mind to use the Tip Top Audio Z8000 as the brain/heart of the system with logic modules such as Intellijel's Plog and the Doepfer A-166 and adding the A-135 -1/A-151... also possibly the Wiard Noisering and other things as I get to understand the system.

The real eye opener for me here is, the A-149-1, which up until now I had never really thought about in terms of its functionality and range of use.

It would be great if others could add to this thread in light of recent additions to the modular world... of course, I am ''Eurocentic'' - but, all suggestions are most welcome.
pugix
Great thread! My latest project is a suitcase synthesizer that will be capable of very complex self-evolving sounds. You can follow the development by this tag on my site:

http://pugix.com/synth/tag/quantisise/

Edit: A key point for the Quantisise design is having a lot of sample and holds, two for each VCO. It's this unusual ratio of VCO to S&H that gives it the capability of extreme self-evolution. I didn't invent it. Credit goes to Peter Blasser.
solaris
pugix wrote:
Great thread! My latest project is a suitcase synthesizer that will be capable of very complex self-evolving sounds. You can follow the development by this tag on my site:

http://pugix.com/synth/tag/quantisise/

Edit: A key point for the Quantisise design is having a lot of sample and holds, two for each VCO. It's this unusual ratio of VCO to S&H that gives it the capability of extreme self-evolution. I didn't invent it. Credit goes to Peter Blasser.


http://pugix.com/synth/quantisise-progress/
this looks very beautiful+++
distorted
matttech wrote:
did some cool Wogglebug tomfoolery this evening....lots of fun. had the random gate bursts going into the a160 clock divider, with the different divisions triggering 2 different envelopes and 3 channels of Maths, all mixed together in a mixer and multed out to both the FM input of the AFG and the RS110's lowpass cutoff (with the AFG going into it)


this post unlocked some doors for me last night. I read this and immediately felt like a complete idiot for never thinking to plug the random bursts into a clock divider. Playing around with that lead me in some really interesting directions. great thread overall!
themanthatwasused
I nominate this as the best thread here in Muffs!
thumbs up
Went thru a rewarding gig last night after reading through the stuff posted above. As of late I have been trying out self generating patch with my bugs and with insane results but it has been always a hit and miss for me. Then this thread made it always a hit!
we're not worthy
Will post a sample video soon.
elmegil
distorted wrote:
matttech wrote:
did some cool Wogglebug tomfoolery this evening....lots of fun. had the random gate bursts going into the a160 clock divider, with the different divisions triggering 2 different envelopes and 3 channels of Maths, all mixed together in a mixer and multed out to both the FM input of the AFG and the RS110's lowpass cutoff (with the AFG going into it)


this post unlocked some doors for me last night. I read this and immediately felt like a complete idiot for never thinking to plug the random bursts into a clock divider. Playing around with that lead me in some really interesting directions. great thread overall!


I have a 5U Wogglebug (Bridechamber) and I'm not sure what the "gate bursts" are? One of the square vcos? Or the clock out with the rate controlled by one of the other random CVs?
Matos
On the euro version you have a clock out and another out right above it that puts out gate bursts based in the clock rate. Fun stuff!
elmegil
Aha, a Tony addition.

I'm jealous; it's not clear to me how it works (even after watching a couple of videos), and Tony doesn't publish schematics (at least not that I've been able to find).

Maybe eventually I'll add one of these to my euro rack....
ATOM
[s]http://soundcloud.com/atomatic-1/rnd1[/s]

Made a little recording tonight, inspired by this tread smile

Modcan B - VCDO, VC Flanger, 4VCA, Dual LFO
Buchla 266 clone
Cyndustries Four Transients
VC Bandpass 194 (a Buchla 194 clone and L-1´s Quad VCA-Mixer combo)

ATOM
distorted
Matos wrote:
On the euro version you have a clock out and another out right above it that puts out gate bursts based in the clock rate. Fun stuff!


I feel like the gate bursts are based on other factors besides just the clock. I decided this recently because I've been preparing a live set where I'm clocking the woggle from a laptop and I've been altering the gate bursts significantly via the other controls (woggle/range/etc) when an external clock is plugged in. This may be my imagination, as the gate bursts are wonderfully crazy. Anyways, the gate bursts are a big favorite for me with the the makenoise wogglebug. They make me miss my zorlon canon a little bit less, but I still wish I had the zorlon canon
Girts23
I was testing my version of the Polivoks filter, and wanted to feed both CVins with randoms signals. So I came up with a simple, 100% self generating patch, involving few my DIY modules. Wogglebug Clock Out feeds Yusynth ADSR and MFOS S&H clock; it S&Hs Hexinverter VC noise (Moise "frequency" CV impacted by Wogglebug Smooth CV Out), and S&H Outs goes back to Wogglebug Clock in. MFOS VCO through Oakley Discontinuity (Fold CV run from LFO) goes to MOTM Sub-Octave Multiplexer in Ring Modulator Mode, it swithches through ocatves (Input B from LFO). All this stuff goes into Polivoks VCF controlled by Wogglebug Stepped CV and ADSR simultaneously. Of couse, VCA controlled by the same ADSR at the end. I didn't touch a knob during this experiment.
Result: Synthstück Automatic Stockhausen
(damn, I can't insert Soundcloud directly!)
eole
i recently did a simple generative patch.
Maths, Function and P.E.G. where mutually changing their speed.
impredicable behaviour !
MR
Absolutely great and inspiring thread! I'll definitely try out these ideas.

One question I thought about a lot in the last time is:
How to turn a self-generating patch into a musical statement?

Possible answers I came up with:

1. It already is. Just record a few minutes/hours of the output of the
patch; that's the piece/track/composition. That's the slogan "Let the
sounds be themselves" (Cage), and that's what many people do. Of course
it's fine. But sometimes I have the impression that the pure patch output
is most interesting for the patch creator, and not for every listener.
Maybe sometimes one can't fully appreciate a self-generating patch's output without knowing its history.

2. Edit. Single out the "most interesting" parts of the output? Might destroy the natural dynamic/development of the patch. Or maybe separate the "voices" in a self-generating patch into a mixing desk and perform some creative mixing (fades, fx, ...)?

3. ...
4. ...
5. ...

6. Add acoustic instruments. That's what I'm currently interested in, see
e.g. this post or this post.

To cite Stockhausen (about his early electronic/instrumental pieces like KONTAKTE):

"These familiar sounds give orientation, perspectives of listening; they function as traffic signs in the unbounded space of the newly discovered electronic world of sound. [...] The encounter with the familiar and nameable in regions of the unfamiliar, unnameable makes the unknown more mysterious, fascinating, and conversely the familiar, also the banal and ancient - something we barely had an ear for - becomes fresh and alive in the new environment of the unfamiliar."

My first attempt, see above, was the combination of a self-generating patch with a piano improvisation "reacting" on it. Here's my most recent attempt:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/mr183/wood-clay-iron-cloud[/s]

This is a "predetermined" improvisation to a self-generating patch (cycling
Maths and Wogglebug in cross-feedback provide the core; the other Maths
outputs give triggers, pitches, and AM modulators to four different
voices). I tried to figure out six strategies to complement the modular,
namely
"play accents to the modular", "play contrasting sounds", "imitate",
"follow rhythmically", "ignore the modular", "silence"
and distributed them over the four minutes in something like a score.

To make things more challenging for me, the acoustic sources should be pretty "poor" sounds: didgeridoo (empty blowing, lip/tongue sounds),
plucked egg cutter as a very poor harp, ocarina flute.
This gives four acoustic tracks.

Finally I ignored all my conceptualisms and faded in some dubby chords
(from a Microkorg, played through EHX Holy Stain and Boss RE-20).
Robba
Art wrote:
This thread is great. I didn't even know CV can be recorded, wow... Thanks, guys. Guinness ftw! Envelope follower is now in my wish list!


Although this is from some pages back...

Tyme Sefari can record and play back CV. You can play nicely with effects such as direction or loop length, playback speed, sound of thunder etc.
Dcramer
Great piece MR! Very evocative. w00t
mousegarden
This is the whole reason I actually started out on this modular thing, but I find the problem with most, if not all generative music is that it changes within the sequence and timbre that has been set-up sure, but the overal structure stays the same. What I mean is that it starts as an ambient sequence, say, with a set timbre, but never strays away from that into say a rhythmic piece with a chord structure/melodies etc and everywhere in between ! I want to morph between styles, rather than sounds, now that would be really interesting, and so far as I'm aware no one has managed to do that without using a DAW to edit the piece, hence generative and random then go out of the window, as it then becomes arranged, and predictable. I've done lots of pieces like this, arranged them, but after first listen I know what's coming, and I loose interest, sure, you can have depth and change on a molecular level, but that requires intense concentration, and not all listening situations allow that. I rarely sit down and listen to anything these days, I'm always doing something else.
Variation and contrast when producing this type of music is a massive challenge, and one that I'm looking forwrd to getting into when I start to get some modules.
I've got Bloom, Scape, and a few other generative music apps, but I tire of them quickly, as the overal texture doesn't stray very far from a few set parameters, simply, there aren't enough parameter options, simple as that, it all becomes boring and rather predictable after a while.

MousGarden.
elmegil
I would think you'd be able to achieve that with judicious use of CVs/crossfading, possibly controlled by something like pressure points? More planning involved, and perhaps enough modules to set up 2 or 3 related patches to morph between, but...?
Dcramer
I find that with generative patches I'm wiggling away trying to move through a range of sounds, rhythms, and textures in an attempt to over come the sameness limitation. To this end I'll create a patch and break it down a bit so that I'm building it back up as I record it. The other element that works well is tonality (key/chord) changes. I'm often using my uScale to flip through chord changes once the patch is chugging along. It's a great point and tricky because I find my self kinda mesmirized by these self running patches but forming them into full pieces is the next step.
mousegarden
Dcramer wrote:
I find that with generative patches I'm wiggling away trying to move through a range of sounds, rhythms, and textures in an attempt to over come the sameness limitation. To this end I'll create a patch and break it down a bit so that I'm building it back up as I record it. The other element that works well is tonality (key/chord) changes. I'm often using my uScale to flip through chord changes once the patch is chugging along. It's a great point and tricky because I find my self kinda mesmirized by these self running patches but forming them into full pieces is the next step.


How dare you mention tonality and chord changes, you are ex-communicated form the world of contemporary music !

hihi

Yeah, you need as many tools on your box as possible. Whatever they are.

As for tweaking patches, no, I prefer to let the system do the tweaking, and that's the hard part, to create a truly self generating system you have to hand over control completely to it. That's the whole point, it makes the decisions, you don't. You specify the rules, but you don't play the game.

MouseGarden.
mousegarden
Dcramer wrote:
I find that with generative patches I'm wiggling away trying to move through a range of sounds, rhythms, and textures in an attempt to over come the sameness limitation. To this end I'll create a patch and break it down a bit so that I'm building it back up as I record it. The other element that works well is tonality (key/chord) changes. I'm often using my uScale to flip through chord changes once the patch is chugging along. It's a great point and tricky because I find my self kinda mesmirized by these self running patches but forming them into full pieces is the next step.


How dare you mention tonality and chord changes, you are ex-communicated form the world of contemporary music !

hihi

Yeah, you need as many tools on your box as possible. Whatever they are.

As for tweaking patches, no, I prefer to let the system do the tweaking, and that's the hard part, to create a truly self generating system you have to hand over control completely to it. That's the whole point, it makes the decisions, you don't. You specify the rules, but you don't play the game.

MouseGarden.
eole


A generative patch exploring feedback and inter-modulation.
No manual tweaking.
No random generating module was used here (see the modules list below).
Just for fun!

modules : DPO, Moddemix, Maths, Function, 4ms PEG, Tiptop BD808, 4ms VCA Matrix.
Dcramer
mousegarden wrote:
Dcramer wrote:
I find that with generative patches I'm wiggling away trying to move through a range of sounds, rhythms, and textures in an attempt to over come the sameness limitation. To this end I'll create a patch and break it down a bit so that I'm building it back up as I record it. The other element that works well is tonality (key/chord) changes. I'm often using my uScale to flip through chord changes once the patch is chugging along. It's a great point and tricky because I find my self kinda mesmirized by these self running patches but forming them into full pieces is the next step.


How dare you mention tonality and chord changes, you are ex-communicated form the world of contemporary music !

hihi

Yeah, you need as many tools on your box as possible. Whatever they are.

As for tweaking patches, no, I prefer to let the system do the tweaking, and that's the hard part, to create a truly self generating system you have to hand over control completely to it. That's the whole point, it makes the decisions, you don't. You specify the rules, but you don't play the game.

MouseGarden.


Ha!
Can I win my way back in by stating that I only use 9th chords based on modes of the Melodic Minor Ascending scale? And only harmonize pandiatonically?

Yeah I've done lots of pieces where the beast does everything on its own, what I like to call "every damn cable in the house patch". But then I'm trying to capture the best minutes of its journey. I used to leg them run in my house for days, quietly in the background like some weird Eno trip. w00t
mousegarden
Aargh ! Been trying to get on here for ages, performancpce just seems to be getting worse, to the point of just not bothering anymore here.

very frustrating

I'm so frustrated at the moment, no money, and no end in sight, and.......

No modules.

This is really grinding me into the ground, I'm drinking heavily and letting my life go in all sorts of ways, I never thought this legal battle would have such a devastating affect on my life.

This has to end soon, as I'm loosing it completely here. You try living with a potentially life changing carrot being dangled in front of you, it feels like every time I each out to grab it it gets pulled further and further away.
I would really like to get a job and start working again, and put all this other stuff on the back burner, but that is a dream right now, for various reasons I won't go into here.

MouseGarden.
mousegarden
Sorry, just had to have a rant..........

MouseGarden.
eole
have you studied electroacoustic composition ?
if not, it could be a good way to access to your dreams without buying any hardware at the moment...
just an idea.

and keep the faith ! w00t
mousegarden
eole wrote:
have you studied electroacoustic composition ?
if not, it could be a good way to access to your dreams without buying any hardware at the moment...
just an idea.

and keep the faith ! w00t


I've got a degree, and I wanted to go to Oxford Brooks to do a masters in electro-acoustic music. That course is the best, no two ways about it. But, it would involve a move, which is not easy, I've been in my flat for 30 years, I rent, and I have rights, to give that up would require some serious thought. However, when I get my money, it could change everything, for a start I would actually have the money to pay for the course! and I may stay in halls, and sub-let my flat for the duration. Everything in my life right now revolves around this damn money. I can act as though I'm not going to get it, and live my life accordingly, but even then, there are very little options open to me right now, in my situation. I had a breakdown, not long ago, and I'm in the care of the social services, my employment prospects are virtually zero. I'm trying to get some voluntary work just for something to do.
This will come to an end, it has to, after all, I have sold some property, and the buyer is in the process of completion, but it's taking ages owing to legal obstructions. Next year will be a decisive one, in no uncertain terms.
My interest in music is actually what keeps me going, if it wasn't for that I would be dead, I'm absolutely sure. I would have no reason to get out of bed in the morning, simple as that. As for the modular, it will get started, I'm buying myself some modules for Christmas ! I'm going to wrap them up and open them on Christmas Day, it's not all bad, probably the only presents since I've been grown up that I will actually want ! w00t

MouseGarden.
eole
have you checked the Razmasynth modules ?
Easy Love modules are pretty cheap kits (e.g. Alex & June, a juicy resonant filter, 45 €)
mousegarden
eole wrote:
have you checked the Razmasynth modules ?
Easy Love modules are pretty cheap kits (e.g. Alex & June, a juicy resonant filter, 45 €)


Thank's for that, but kits are out for me, my eyesight is so bad, and I have arthritis in my fingers and dupeytrens con-stricture in my left hand, which makes my dexterity pretty bad. Anyway, you name it, and I've got it !
I'm going to get some Doepfer VCO's, a filter, mixer, and a Noise Source, that should give me something to get to grips with in the meantime, I just want to start making some noise !

MouseGarden.
ntlss
I am thankful for this thread.
Milanm
Loving this thread, here is a short patch I put together tonight doing its thing. No tweaking.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/colinm/generative-patch[/s]
mousegarden
Milanm wrote:
Loving this thread, here is a short patch I put together tonight doing its thing. No tweaking.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/colinm/generative-patch[/s]


I like this because it sounds very ambiguous, electro-acoustic almost, I can't help imagining it being a part of a bigger whole though, but that's just my obsession with adding things at the moment, I'm trying to get back to a more minimal approach, and trying to lengthen my attention span, which is so painfully short lately, I have been toying with the theory that computers and modern technology are shortening attention spans, and I think I'm on to something.

MouseGarden.
themanthatwasused
I have been really inspired by this thread this past few months.
My first exploration, one take without overdub from an hour long patch:

[bcalbum]2035042583[/bcalbum]
mousegarden
themanthatwasused wrote:
I have been really inspired by this thread this past few months.
My first exploration, one take without overdub from an hour long patch:

[bcalbum]2035042583[/bcalbum]


This could be my band, circa 2004.

That's not a criticism.

MouseGarden.
Morpher
Loving this thread we're not worthy
mousegarden
I am threading this love........

MouseGarden.
LoveHertz
elmegil wrote:
I would think you'd be able to achieve that with judicious use of CVs/crossfading, possibly controlled by something like pressure points? More planning involved, and perhaps enough modules to set up 2 or 3 related patches to morph between, but...?


exactly, i doubt you need any software for this, just put a bit more thought into your patching.

starting out with random Kaos then get smart.
LoveHertz
mousegarden wrote:
Aargh ! Been trying to get on here for ages, performancpce just seems to be getting worse, to the point of just not bothering anymore here.

very frustrating

I'm so frustrated at the moment, no money, and no end in sight, and.......

No modules.

This is really grinding me into the ground, I'm drinking heavily and letting my life go in all sorts of ways, I never thought this legal battle would have such a devastating affect on my life.

This has to end soon, as I'm loosing it completely here. You try living with a potentially life changing carrot being dangled in front of you, it feels like every time I each out to grab it it gets pulled further and further away.
I would really like to get a job and start working again, and put all this other stuff on the back burner, but that is a dream right now, for various reasons I won't go into here.

MouseGarden.

hey there mousegarden. it sound slike you going thru some phase of source of much uncertainty. sorry to read of legal battles and th rest of your life. i been thru a black hole over the years and still in it so no worries.

you mentioned some points i would like to ask you. No modules and no money? apart from the money thing which i can understand i assumed you had some modules to do your kaos patches which you were talking of. what do you mean by your performance getting worse. i thought the less interferrance with this self generative stuff is better.

you mentioned a few softwares i never heard of hasnt deliverd to your expectations but sometimes its really about undrstanding the tools and modules you have rather than chasing the carrot of broken promises and the temptation of the next novelty gadget. sometimes its good to take a break from it all then approach in new state of mind is really all thats kneeded. Thats what I try to do when i feel i m getting a bit stagnant of ideas rather than buy a new piece of gear.
LoveHertz
man than reads bad.,

sorry for the sloppy englis in my previous post.
LoveHertz
can someone tell me why i dont see the links to mp3's people are posting since i always seem to be able to read a follow up post by somemone that has accessed a link i dont see?

...or are people just saying 'that' to fool me....?/?
LoveHertz
mousegarden wrote:
Dcramer wrote:
I find that with generative patches I'm wiggling away trying to move through a range of sounds, rhythms, and textures in an attempt to over come the sameness limitation. To this end I'll create a patch and break it down a bit so that I'm building it back up as I record it. The other element that works well is tonality (key/chord) changes. I'm often using my uScale to flip through chord changes once the patch is chugging along. It's a great point and tricky because I find my self kinda mesmirized by these self running patches but forming them into full pieces is the next step.


How dare you mention tonality and chord changes, you are ex-communicated form the world of contemporary music !

hihi

Yeah, you need as many tools on your box as possible. Whatever they are.

As for tweaking patches, no, I prefer to let the system do the tweaking, and that's the hard part, to create a truly self generating system you have to hand over control completely to it. That's the whole point, it makes the decisions, you don't. You specify the rules, but you don't play the game.

MouseGarden.


tonality and Chords?...I think i can see where you are comming from. I have to ask "you specify the rules" will dictate the musical (or non musical) results here and if i understand you right this might be where the dilema lies.
Dcramer
I'm continually fascinated by a grand experiment in which we create these complex self generating patches, making their own sounds, and chugging along on its own, as we sit back and ask ourselves whether or not it's music. I enjoy using some tonal elements in these patches as it raises the bar, creating a challenge to build a patch that while left on its own to chug away, still follows some musical rules and evolves into an interesting piece. hmmm.....
LoveHertz
Dcramer wrote:
[... still follows some musical rules and evolves into an interesting piece. hmmm.....


yes, i am sure there are conventional musical rules but im always wanting to understand the art of music in a new way since i dont read and write music nor possess any keyboard skills. I would like my machine to play self running patches without running totally off into meaningless wierdness.(read out of context here). i am happy to sit back and fine tune the experiment what ever that might mean.

The opposite of all this is some sequencer rhythm with a synth lead line over top which i find even more boring.

its kinda about finding a meeting ground of styles maybe...?
eole
i tend to give a wide open meaning to the word "musical".

i really enjoy music from Bach, Parmegiani, Cage, James Holden, Moondog, Hildegard Von Bingen... (and many more! it's only a random list to give different exemples.)
tonality is only a possible parameter wink
mousegarden
LoveHertz wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
Aargh ! Been trying to get on here for ages, performancpce just seems to be getting worse, to the point of just not bothering anymore here.

very frustrating

I'm so frustrated at the moment, no money, and no end in sight, and.......

No modules.

This is really grinding me into the ground, I'm drinking heavily and letting my life go in all sorts of ways, I never thought this legal battle would have such a devastating affect on my life.

This has to end soon, as I'm loosing it completely here. You try living with a potentially life changing carrot being dangled in front of you, it feels like every time I each out to grab it it gets pulled further and further away.
I would really like to get a job and start working again, and put all this other stuff on the back burner, but that is a dream right now, for various reasons I won't go into here.

MouseGarden.

hey there mousegarden. it sound slike you going thru some phase of source of much uncertainty. sorry to read of legal battles and th rest of your life. i been thru a black hole over the years and still in it so no worries.

you mentioned some points i would like to ask you. No modules and no money? apart from the money thing which i can understand i assumed you had some modules to do your kaos patches which you were talking of. what do you mean by your performance getting worse. i thought the less interferrance with this self generative stuff is better.

you mentioned a few softwares i never heard of hasnt deliverd to your expectations but sometimes its really about undrstanding the tools and modules you have rather than chasing the carrot of broken promises and the temptation of the next novelty gadget. sometimes its good to take a break from it all then approach in new state of mind is really all thats kneeded. Thats what I try to do when i feel i m getting a bit stagnant of ideas rather than buy a new piece of gear.


I now have some spare money set aside, for those modules, I just haven't got around to getting them yet, I guess I'm scared that I might need the money for something essential, like rent ! But I'll get them soon, it takes ages for me to get around to things.
Software ? I use Reason, Arturia Moog Modular, Arturia ARP2600 and Reaper, plus Reaktor. That's it.
I have an A-Station rack synth, that's my only bit of hardware.
Oh yes, and an empty Doepfer case...............
Sorry to hear about your bad patch, problems that people can't physically see are always ignored and treated with disdain, which doesn't exactly add to your situation.

MouseGarden.
Dcramer
eole wrote:
tonality is only a possible parameter wink

I agree; when I refer to following musical rules I don't mean simply the theory of western music and tonality. I'm often creating my own weird rules for a piece, sometimes along the lines of serialism but sometimes just far out there shit. Getting back into a hardware modular has really reignited my love of experimental electronic music. The early tape manipulation and music lab stuff. I find that most software programs tend to herd composers towards very conventional compositional styles but a modular is an open canvas. Muffs is a huge inspiration for me when it comes to creating music from complex evolving tones. w00t
eole
so true !

i never got the drone thing until i had my own modular.
then, i just started to listen to complex evolving tones for hours and really like it !
it's more like a process, or sound art installation...

of course, i continue to compose other things.
Dcramer
Yeah, I did a cool drone yesterday, created a four part chord with a sub bass, mixed it into four different filter/wave folders and then used a Linix and Doepfer quad Env to create a quad fade across all the sources in rotation. Took that out to some delays, spring and digital verbs with a feedback loop and let it cycle. Tons of slow modulation shifting things around, prob my biggest patch yet with 77 cables. Like a party in my ear except everyone is rolling around the floor passing out. Very cool. Guinness ftw!
mousegarden
The continual process of deciding what modules to put in my box goes on, I sometimes have radical stupid ideas about what to do. Right now I'm thinking of filling up the whole box with just oscillators, about forty of them, and then feeding the outputs of each one into a big external mixer, setting up drones on each oscilator and just playing around with the mix. This would produce some amazing harmony and tonal effects, but this somehow seems like a really stupid, and expensive long way round the country, basically to get next door, I maybe wrong though.

MouseGarden.
Dcramer
I have this weird theory about modulars, kind of a fanciful notion really, that the modules we choose are less important than we think and that it's the creative patching that really matters. Imagine getting a surprise modular in the mail with a bunch of weird utility modules in it but still being able to create something artful with it. The idea of a bunch of Oscs is cool, I would simply add a bunch VCA/mixers to control it all internally. hmmm.....
mousegarden
Dcramer wrote:
I have this weird theory about modulars, kind of a fanciful notion really, that the modules we choose are less important than we think and that it's the creative patching that really matters. Imagine getting a surprise modular in the mail with a bunch of weird utility modules in it but still being able to create something artful with it. The idea of a bunch of Oscs is cool, I would simply add a bunch VCA/mixers to control it all internally. hmmm.....


Yeah ! Good idea, this could get ridiculouse, I could get a few more LC9 cases, and fill each one with a particular type of module, next would be VCA's and envelopes, the next would be filters, and then LFO's, until I had this huge multi-timbral polyphonic modular, I think some chaps in the 70's did this though, and went on to work with some bloke called Stevie Wonder, whoever he is ?

8_)
kdjupdal
I once heard a sound installation, made of 50 or something analog oscillators each with its own speaker. The sound was massive! It is a cool idea but maybe best if you build the oscillators yourself (unless you are rich), because for this you only need a really simple circuit and not a bunch of features.
leitner6
kdjupdal wrote:
I once heard a sound installation, made of 50 or something analog oscillators each with its own speaker. The sound was massive! It is a cool idea but maybe best if you build the oscillators yourself (unless you are rich), because for this you only need a really simple circuit and not a bunch of features.


Was that the thing where they were all tuned to different frequencies, so that at a distance it sounded like noise, but up close you could pick out the individual frequencies?
kdjupdal
leitner6 wrote:

Was that the thing where they were all tuned to different frequencies, so that at a distance it sounded like noise, but up close you could pick out the individual frequencies?


Yes, interesting perspective.
The idea was Wagners 15 hour long opera condensed into one second.
http://asbjornflo.net/en/art/ragnarok
mousegarden
kdjupdal wrote:
I once heard a sound installation, made of 50 or something analog oscillators each with its own speaker. The sound was massive! It is a cool idea but maybe best if you build the oscillators yourself (unless you are rich), because for this you only need a really simple circuit and not a bunch of features.


Wise words, even with the cheapest off the shelf oscillators the bill would be around two grand, or more. There isn't a way around this, apart from building your own, even if you did it with software, you would still need a lot of hardware channels to output the result.

MouseGarden.
[SgnlRtr]
This is a great thread. Very helpful. Thanks for the information!
leitner6
kdjupdal wrote:
I once heard a sound installation, made of 50 or something analog oscillators each with its own speaker. The sound was massive! It is a cool idea but maybe best if you build the oscillators yourself (unless you are rich), because for this you only need a really simple circuit and not a bunch of features.


mousegarden wrote:
Wise words, even with the cheapest off the shelf oscillators the bill would be around two grand, or more. There isn't a way around this, apart from building your own, even if you did it with software, you would still need a lot of hardware channels to output the result.

MouseGarden.


You can easily make an oscillator with 1 dual opamp, a few resistors, and a capacitor. The extra complexity comes from making it track, making it temperature stable, and any additional waveshaping. If you omit that and made them fixed frequency, it would probably be less than a dollar an oscillator. (not including the speaker)


Sorry to derail the the topic. I'd like to hear more self-evolving patch ideas!
nbirnel
mousegarden wrote:
The continual process of deciding what modules to put in my box goes on, I sometimes have radical stupid ideas about what to do. Right now I'm thinking of filling up the whole box with just oscillators, about forty of them, and then feeding the outputs of each one into a big external mixer, setting up drones on each oscilator and just playing around with the mix. This would produce some amazing harmony and tonal effects, but this somehow seems like a really stupid, and expensive long way round the country, basically to get next door, I maybe wrong though.

MouseGarden.


http://www.hughlecaine.com/sounds/99generators.mp3 (1957!)

I wonder if you made the osc's yourself if it might be satisfying as a process.
kdjupdal
Additive analogue synthesis!

"
In 1957, Le Caine began work on an instrument to control complex sine-wave structures. Initially he built a bank of 16 oscillators controlled by touch-sensitive keys but by 1959 he had built a much larger array of 108 (9 x 12) oscillators that were to be controlled by touch-sensitive keyboards or by the Spectrogram.
"
http://www.hughlecaine.com/en/oscbank.html
A Dingleberry Monstrosity
80% of these tips should be called "slowly evolving patches" and not "self generating patches" (hides)
mousegarden
nbirnel wrote:


http://www.hughlecaine.com/sounds/99generators.mp3 (1957!)

I wonder if you made the osc's yourself if it might be satisfying as a process.


Lovely sound, like hearing Messiaen with a twist. Thank's for that.
OK, another idea down the drain, exactly what "hasn't" been done ? It is increasingly more difficult to come up with new ideas, but then, maybe it always has been.

MouseGarden.
nbirnel
mousegarden wrote:


Lovely sound, like hearing Messiaen with a twist. Thank's for that.
OK, another idea down the drain, exactly what "hasn't" been done ? It is increasingly more difficult to come up with new ideas, but then, maybe it always has been.

MouseGarden.


I say screw new ideas. LeCain wasn't being 'new' when he massed oscillators - people have been massing strings or winds forever. And I'm sure that your implementation would be different. (Even if you tried to recreate LeCain's equipment, you would be working with modern components and get a different sound.)
Dcramer
[s]http://soundcloud.com/dcramer/douglas-leedy-entropical[/s]
This is my take on Entropical Paradise, designed by Douglas Leedy in 1969 on the Buchla 100 system, as notated in Allen Strange's 1983 book, and realized here in Eurorack. Certain elements relating to the bird calls have been changed. I notice they experimented a lot with random voltages controlling tempos and ranges in these generative patches. hmmm.....
cloudscapes
relly really inspiring thread. I'm just getting started into modular (got my first modules yesterday)

has this video been posted yet? it's not pure generative (there's some tweaking) but there's a bit of random stuff in it, so relevant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3AucNpEgn8
Blew my mind 5:30-onwards.
elmegil
Would you care to share the patch itself? I'm 5U more than Euro though I have a few of those too, and I have tried out a couple of the patches from Alan's book and this one has caught my attention a couple of times but I've not had quite the right things....
mousegarden
nbirnel wrote:
mousegarden wrote:


Lovely sound, like hearing Messiaen with a twist. Thank's for that.
OK, another idea down the drain, exactly what "hasn't" been done ? It is increasingly more difficult to come up with new ideas, but then, maybe it always has been.

MouseGarden.


I say screw new ideas. LeCain wasn't being 'new' when he massed oscillators - people have been massing strings or winds forever. And I'm sure that your implementation would be different. (Even if you tried to recreate LeCain's equipment, you would be working with modern components and get a different sound.)


I do get quite concerned when composing and recording electronic music, the importance of being totally original is always there, to the point where I get very depressed about it sometimes when I don't succeed, and that is most of the time !
But I'm a pianist, with a traditional technique, and the other side of my musical life is composing and recording lyrical piano pieces, very conventional, and certainly not ground breaking in any way, they are a bit like Satie, crossed with Bill Evans and Harold Budd, easy to describe. But even though I have been influenced by those people I still have my own take on what they did. It's easier for me to accept those influences in my piano pieces than it is in my electronic music, for some strange reason. I think it may have something to do with the fact that classical/Jazz improvisation is already an established genre, with a track record by lots of respected artists, whereas when approaching electronics, every time you fire-up the gear you are embarking on an unknown journey, you are a pioneer, and that is one hell of a responsibility.

MouseGarden.
Dcramer
[s]http://soundcloud.com/dcramer/clockwerk-tomato-rby-dcramer[/s]
Twelve Tone Serialism in a completely generative patch. Uses a seq playing a tone row back and forth and being altered in pitch by the same seq addressed differently. Changes in timing are created by doubling the master clock (several times) with a RVS output. Logic is used to make synced modulations. The second (lower) voice is a track and hold of the first. w00t
mousegarden
Dcramer wrote:
[s]http://soundcloud.com/dcramer/clockwerk-tomato-rby-dcramer[/s]
Twelve Tone Serialism in a completely generative patch. Uses a seq playing a tone row back and forth and being altered in pitch by the same seq addressed differently. Changes in timing are created by doubling the master clock (several times) with a RVS output. Logic is used to make synced modulations. The second (lower) voice is a track and hold of the first. w00t


That piece has litterally changed my life, I love the overal timbre, it drapes itself over the sonic landscape like a Monet sunset.

MouseGarden.
Dcramer
Thanks!
Cheers w00t
eole
[s]http://soundcloud.com/dumodulaire/17-janvier[/s]
Dcramer
Very cool! thumbs up
eole
thank you smile
VortexRanger
Timbre-wise this piece is inspired by computer and tape music, but it's all modular and all self-playing.

[bandcamp width=100% height=42 track=2422271569 size=small bgcol=333333 linkcol=e99708]

http://vortexranger.bandcamp.com/track/generational-diff-rance
eole
great variety of timbres and forms !
very 'musical' too.

applause
eole
i patched this yesterday :
Dcramer
Here's a VID I just did describing my patch that uses square wave LFOs, summed together, modulating an Osc to create a shifting melody line. In this example I use 3 square waves and describe how I use VCAs to get only the positive cycle, making it easy to tune as I'm not using a quantizer in this patch. By carefully tuning you can create all sorts scale patterns for melodies including atonal, 12 tone, symmetrical diminished and whole tone scales. The trick to getting the shifting melodies is to use un-synced LFOs all running at similar slow speeds to create the ever shifting stair step pattern I refer to as a Skyline pattern.

And the link: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn9xG7KHaTw&feature=c4-feed-u
Cheers w00t
elmegil
Love the TARDIS pointer Mr. Green
kdjupdal
Great!
I have also used this technique, but I didn't think of the trick to use a vca to eliminate the negative portion of the square wave.

Fun to create automatic melodies without a sequencer.

Dcramer wrote:
Here's a VID I just did describing my patch that uses square wave LFOs, summed together, modulating an Osc to create a shifting melody line. In this example I use 3 square waves and describe how I use VCAs to get only the positive cycle, making it easy to tune as I'm not using a quantizer in this patch. By carefully tuning you can create all sorts scale patterns for melodies including atonal, 12 tone, symmetrical diminished and whole tone scales. The trick to getting the shifting melodies is to use un-synced LFOs all running at similar slow speeds to create the ever shifting stair step pattern I refer to as a Skyline pattern.

And the link: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn9xG7KHaTw&feature=c4-feed-u
Cheers w00t
plogbidman
Very easy to get self-generating patches using an A-152 ! hihi

mousegarden
plogbidman wrote:
Very easy to get self-generating patches using an A-152 ! hihi



Sounds interesting, but don't you have to have enough sources to feed the 152 ?
plogbidman
In this 6U, i have 2 VCOs, 2 LFOs and 2 VCFs acting as oscillators. It's enough most of the time. And when it's not enough i have to be clever doing my patch. A very good exercise ! And as you surely noticed i have another 6U below that one. But my goal was to show it's possible to get interesting self-generative patches by using an A-152 and only a few cables.
mousegarden
plogbidman wrote:
In this 6U, i have 2 VCOs, 2 LFOs and 2 VCFs acting as oscillators. It's enough most of the time. And when it's not enough i have to be clever doing my patch. A very good exercise ! And as you surely noticed i have another 6U below that one. But my goal was to show it's possible to get interesting self-generative patches by using an A-152 and only a few cables.


Thank's for that, yeah, now it's easy to see what you were doing, nice simple patch, this damn I pad won't show embedded videos I have to go to the YT site. Got to get one of these modules now !

MouseGarden.
Indigo333
This is currently an extensive area of study and have been soaking up this thread. Thank you all for your shared works, ideas and such. I have a dear friend who will be coming out with a module that makes self generating patches "easy" or the module has dedicated areas for this purpose specifically. Sadly I cannot leak any other info than this until it drops in a few months but I will drop back in for sure when it does. thumbs up

I haven't used my TS for self generating patches as its a new module for me and its something I had to have two of ( even as a straight forward sampler looper with reverse etc) throw in false time stretching, drones and I am even more glued to it but as a means to create self generating patches just opens all kinds of doors. Thanks for the suggestions, I will record a few using the TS2 and be back with something hopefully pleasing to the ears oops
Atman Charlatan
Loads of things to try !

Thanks!
Asym9
I'm glad to see this thread revived; I must have missed it in my searches.

It coincides with a longtime interest of mine! Lately it seems as if every 3rd or 4th session has been devoted to completely generative patches.

Thanks to all that have contributed links to audio and video for this thread! Guinness ftw!
MrNovember
Wow took me awhile but I finally read through this thread. Absolutely loved all of it. Tons of interesting ideas.

A couple of my "generative" patches (they're more so just drones with the Wogglebug modulating a bunch of things and contain a fair bit of wiggling):



Probably pretty obvious from the videos, but I really like playing with feedback and random samples. And most of my patches turn into some kind of generative drone. I'm currently building a new case and a Radio Music, and waiting for a couple modules in the mail, but I'll be recording more complex patches when everything is up and running again.
Opus110
Felt like bumping this just beacuse it's my favorite thread on Muff's. Have very little time these days to turn on the modular, but just 5 minutes with threads like this gives me a bunch of ideas of what to explore when I finally will have time!
Dcramer
Here's a generative piece in which I try to create something rhythmic and melodic that also has generative mixing properties:
[bandcamp width=100% height=120 album=412852968 size=large bgcol=333333 linkcol=fe7eaf tracklist=false artwork=small track=14067064]
Opus110
Dcramer wrote:
Here's a generative piece in which I try to create something rhythmic and melodic that also has generative mixing properties:
[bandcamp width=100% height=120 album=412852968 size=large bgcol=333333 linkcol=fe7eaf tracklist=false artwork=small track=14067064]


Pentatonic generative! Neat!

But you do know that if there's not at least a minimal patch description, it doesn't exist... meh
Dcramer
Opus110 wrote:


Pentatonic generative! Neat!

But you do know that if there's not at least a minimal patch description, it doesn't exist... meh


No probs:

Live vid of the whole patch with description w00t
Complete with obligatory dancing Dalek Potato Head nanners
Opus110
thumbs up
Dogma
Dcramer wrote:
Opus110 wrote:


Pentatonic generative! Neat!

But you do know that if there's not at least a minimal patch description, it doesn't exist... meh


No probs:

Live vid of the whole patch with description w00t
Complete with obligatory dancing Dalek Potato Head nanners


Daniel i think your my fave wiggler.....see i want to completely replace midi and and the computer (I use the computer for the things i think theyre good at but they leave me cold when making music)

I was wondering what that main part was as its a timbre i wa familiar with but still intrigued by...

DO you still think the zdsps is the best effects unit? I need an all rounder....
Needles
What a terrific thread.

applause applause applause applause applause
crionox
Digging this thread. I stumbled onto my first self generated patch recently and although it wasn't the height of "musical", there was just something mesmerizing and satisfying about it. Makes me want to explore it more, especially as it's the easiest way to "jam" on a modular.
Daisuk
This thread is awesome. Dcramer - you're a modular God, man, love those pieces of yours! Amazing. applause
vgermuse
Awesome thread with tons of cool info and yes, Dcramer rocks!

Here's a humble offering:

[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/57789082" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_use r=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]

mousegarden
Dcramer wrote:
Opus110 wrote:


Pentatonic generative! Neat!

But you do know that if there's not at least a minimal patch description, it doesn't exist... meh


No probs:

Live vid of the whole patch with description w00t
Complete with obligatory dancing Dalek Potato Head nanners


Just wondered what reverb that was ? Is it internal ? or from outboard ?

Nice !
Dcramer
Aw gee guys oops thanks!

Hey Mouse, that reverb is the Zdsp running Halls of Valhalla on the Niflheim preset, being voltage controlled by "the Engine" voltage which controls its depth, tone, and decay as well as creating space in the mix. w00t

Love me some generative patches so I've spent all week working on something new.... The fully poly Krell! This is fun!
bournio
Dcramer wrote:


Love me some generative patches so I've spent all week working on something new.... The fully poly Krell! This is fun!


It's peanut butter jelly time! It's peanut butter jelly time! It's peanut butter jelly time! It's peanut butter jelly time! It's peanut butter jelly time! MY ASS IS BLEEDING we're not worthy

I was thinking of some sort of krell counterpoint
Krellterpuntal if you will

But I don't have enough rack for that!
schege
A selfgenerating patch you can listen via live stream.
Endless Play is an art project in Cologne, involving endlessly playing modular synth patch as a soundtrack for a radio play based on David Foster Wallace’ “Infinite Jest”.

http://unendlichesspiel.de/
synthi
schege wrote:
A selfgenerating patch you can listen via live stream.
Endless Play is an art project in Cologne, involving endlessly playing modular synth patch as a soundtrack for a radio play based on David Foster Wallace’ “Infinite Jest”.

http://unendlichesspiel.de/


Great!!! Rockin' Banana! nanners It's peanut butter jelly time!
Willowhaus
Dcramer wrote:

No probs:

Live vid of the whole patch with description w00t
Complete with obligatory dancing Dalek Potato Head nanners

Wow...dude, I have to say that I am in awe...that is fantastic work! we're not worthy
VortexRanger
Worked on this patch for awhile in my 6U performance case:

"Arbitrary recording of a self-playing patch in a two-row modular synth. I took a shower and made dinner while recording it, then uploaded it unedited. Feel free to enjoy any, or all, or none of it. Note selection is locked to a minor-flat-6 chord, which I was particularly fond of during this period."

[bandcamp width=100% height=142 album=74856810 size=large bgcol=ffffff linkcol=0687f5 tracklist=false artwork=small]

https://walkerfarrell.bandcamp.com/album/green-fiber
Dcramer
^Vortex! This is awesome!! thumbs up
Daisuk
VortexRanger wrote:
Worked on this patch for awhile in my 6U performance case:

"Arbitrary recording of a self-playing patch in a two-row modular synth. I took a shower and made dinner while recording it, then uploaded it unedited. Feel free to enjoy any, or all, or none of it. Note selection is locked to a minor-flat-6 chord, which I was particularly fond of during this period."

[bandcamp width=100% height=142 album=74856810 size=large bgcol=ffffff linkcol=0687f5 tracklist=false artwork=small]

https://walkerfarrell.bandcamp.com/album/green-fiber


Damn, that is mad. woah Do you have any general patch descriptions to share? Amazing variety in it. It really sounds like someone has carefully composed 50 minutes of sound for an art installation or something.
VortexRanger
Daisuk wrote:
VortexRanger wrote:
https://walkerfarrell.bandcamp.com/album/green-fiber


Damn, that is mad. woah Do you have any general patch descriptions to share? Amazing variety in it. It really sounds like someone has carefully composed 50 minutes of sound for an art installation or something.


Thanks, glad you liked it!

The main audio signal path is tELHARMONIC -> SMR -> Erbe-Verb, with percussive elements coming from STO -> Optomix. Running an additive synth engine into a resonator sounds a bit redundant or oxymoronic (can't decide which), but the reason I really liked this setup is that sometimes upper harmonics from the tELHARMONIC would coincide with the resonant points on the SMR and saturate. I built the rest of the patch around that, focusing on trying to maximize the resulting swells of intensity.

Here are my handwritten notes of patch points. It says nothing about knob settings or philosophy, this was just a personal reference in case I messed it up and wanted to revert. Disregard anything about "PG", "CV Bus Input", and "SID", they were for different pieces I performed alongside this piece at a concert, and aren't used in the recording. Let's see, also the parenthesized "N -> SMR Evens" is in parentheses because it was optional, and wasn't used in this recording either.

Daisuk
Ooooh, damn. Thanks for sharing. thumbs up
gis_sweden
VortexRanger wrote:
Worked on this patch for awhile in my 6U performance case:

Okay I'm late... but this patch is still thumbs up applause
Dcramer
Time to get caught up on this thread! This is fun!

Here it is for posterity's sack...the full Poly Krell! Miley Cyrus


And the biggest, baddest, generative patch of them all, in eight voice polyphony....
woah Requiem Partes Autem Animae woah
gis_sweden
The Krell patch is appealing to us. I want to be able to make Krell patch myself.
But I don’t have an envelope generator with EOS. I have a CV AD (ALM Pip Slope).
But that is not the same thing.

That led me to think about the definition of a Krell patch. I know the question
have been raised before.
To me it is the use of CV controlled attack and decay, the use of EOS function
and the timbre change of the sound.

Maybe someone could make a basic Krell patch with “basic” modules. Minimal
Krell for beginners (like me).

Don’t know but maybe the definition and the basic Krell patch should be in
FAQ/sticky. Or is it? hmmm.....

An envelope generator with EOS is on my “to buy list”. No I will not get Math.
neuroportal
Quote:
Requiem Partes Autem Animae


Daniel - this is incredible!
Dcramer
gis_sweden wrote:
The Krell patch is appealing to us. I want to be able to make Krell patch myself.
But I don’t have an envelope generator with EOS. I have a CV AD (ALM Pip Slope).
But that is not the same thing.

That led me to think about the definition of a Krell patch. I know the question
have been raised before.
To me it is the use of CV controlled attack and decay, the use of EOS function
and the timbre change of the sound.

Maybe someone could make a basic Krell patch with “basic” modules. Minimal
Krell for beginners (like me).

Don’t know but maybe the definition and the basic Krell patch should be in
FAQ/sticky. Or is it? hmmm.....

An envelope generator with EOS is on my “to buy list”. No I will not get Math.


The Krell patch was conceived by fab Wiggler Vgermuse, who can be found in the Buchla forum!
His original patch is a voltage controlled function generator in loop mode (end of fall patched to trig) which has its rise and fall separately modulated by by other cycling function generators. The first function is used to drive the vca of the voice and the EOC also clocks a S&H for the melody line. It's very simple but pure genius.
All of my Krell patches are similar but I also use voltages summed in to drive the function generator's range wider. thumbs up
Any simple VC function gen will work: Pitts envelope, Makenoise Function A-172-2, WMD slew. w00t
mousegarden
Dcramer wrote:
gis_sweden wrote:
The Krell patch is appealing to us. I want to be able to make Krell patch myself.
But I don’t have an envelope generator with EOS. I have a CV AD (ALM Pip Slope).
But that is not the same thing.

That led me to think about the definition of a Krell patch. I know the question
have been raised before.
To me it is the use of CV controlled attack and decay, the use of EOS function
and the timbre change of the sound.

Maybe someone could make a basic Krell patch with “basic” modules. Minimal
Krell for beginners (like me).

Don’t know but maybe the definition and the basic Krell patch should be in
FAQ/sticky. Or is it? hmmm.....

An envelope generator with EOS is on my “to buy list”. No I will not get Math.


The Krell patch was conceived by fab Wiggler Vgermuse, who can be found in the Buchla forum!
His original patch is a voltage controlled function generator in loop mode (end of fall patched to trig) which has its rise and fall separately modulated by by other cycling function generators. The first function is used to drive the vca of the voice and the EOC also clocks a S&H for the melody line. It's very simple but pure genius.
All of my Krell patches are similar but I also use voltages summed in to drive the function generator's range wider. thumbs up
Any simple VC function gen will work: Pitts envelope, Makenoise Function A-172-2, WMD slew. w00t


I've picked up on the importance of EOC devices regarding the Krell, but I'm a bit confused as to their use in EG's?

hmmm.....
Dcramer
^Mouse, the EOC (end of cycle) and EOR (end of rise) seen on many function generators like Maths, is a useful gate output that relies on the ENVs length for its timing. So in a voltage controlled rise and fall module, you can get two different triggers whose timing can be voltage controlled. thumbs up
vgermuse
Many thanks Daniel aka Dcramer for the kind words. Just for the archives here's my original building of the Krell patch



https://vimeo.com/48466272

And here is a video I made about why I named it the Krell patch. This was originally made for my students sitting in class and at one point the screen goes intentionally black while I encouraged them to listen to the sounds.

https://www.hightail.com/download/cUJYa3ZCSU9WRDlESjhUQw
mousegarden
Dcramer wrote:
^Mouse, the EOC (end of cycle) and EOR (end of rise) seen on many function generators like Maths, is a useful gate output that relies on the ENVs length for its timing. So in a voltage controlled rise and fall module, you can get two different triggers whose timing can be voltage controlled. thumbs up


Thanks!
gis_sweden
Dcramer wrote:
The Krell patch was conceived by fab Wiggler Vgermuse, who can be found in the Buchla forum! ....

Thanks for a great answer. Then I’m on the right track. As I wrote I don’t have an envelope generator with EOC - yet. But I don’t give up! Yesterday I experimented with a work-around. From ALM Pip-Slope -> A-140 that generates a trigger that my S/H (AS RS-40) understands. That gate is not EOS thou. But leads to an interesting variation in the tone. Like when you play the trumpet, for example, the pitch is not the same during the note. As OSC I use a self oscillating Uoki-Toki Polivoks VCF. The output is a little wood wind-ish… and have interesting variations. This is going to a modified A-124 Wasp on the on the verge to self oscillation. This filter is controlled by CV I get from LFO -> QNT clocked by the gate signal from Pip Slope/A-140 combo.

Does this essay make sense? If not, sorry…

Result… Only the creator can love this lol

#PoorMansAtonalKrellPatchWorkAround

@vgermuse lovey video and intriguing patch. Why the name Krell? Krell is high end hi-fi for me… hmmm.....
vgermuse
gis_sweden wrote:


@vgermuse lovey video and intriguing patch. Why the name Krell? Krell is high end hi-fi for me… hmmm.....


Thanks! Here is a video I made about why I named it the Krell patch. This video was originally made for my students sitting in class and at one point the screen goes intentionally black while I encouraged them to listen to the sounds.

https://www.hightail.com/download/cUJYa3ZCSU9WRDlESjhUQw
gis_sweden
vgermuse wrote:
Thanks! Here is a video I made....


Aha! Thanks a lot. w00t
electronic tonalities by Louis and Bebe Barron
They sure did an amazing pioneering work. They sat the standard? This is what it sounds like in space…
“…that recording was made by Krell musicians…” Mr. Green thumbs up

I just have to buy my modules – not invent them. I don’t have to create sound generating tools based on principles from a book…
Feel lazy and spoiled. Just the fact that I use a modular synth is unreasonable. oops

Krell is a worthily name! we're not worthy
Dcramer
I saw the movie in a theatre as a child and had no idea the significance of what I was watching!
There are many ways to get Krellish, organic results, it's just a matter of patching up an env or LFO whose shape and length can be modulated and then deriving a trigger from it. I really like the sound of multiple pitches changing during one env cycle like a legato wind instrument phrase! thumbs up
But the real story of the Krell patch is the artistic way it has trancesnded system formats. Wiggler create the Krell on all kinds of systems, translating it from Barton's original Buchla patch. This has lead me on a journey to learn more about Buchla and Serge in my quest to realize a synthesis language separate from the tools used to express it. w00t
mousegarden
I've been thinking of getting a new ADSR module for some time, preferably a quad but it's not essential. I'm now thinking about this EOC function and how useful it could be for generative patches. However, the obvious examples. Math's, Function, are out, I find them too confusing to use. I was wondering about other modules with a more traditional interface that have this EOC function and more, like EOR etc?

hmmm.....
sockmonkey
mousegarden wrote:
I've been thinking of getting a new ADSR module for some time, preferably a quad but it's not essential. I'm now thinking about this EOC function and how useful it could be for generative patches. However, the obvious examples. Math's, Function, are out, I find them too confusing to use. I was wondering about other modules with a more traditional interface that have this EOC function and more, like EOR etc?

hmmm.....


The Doepfer Quad ADSR A-143-2 has gate outputs for EOA, EOD and EOR phases. It's a pretty great module. You can't change the segment lengths via CV, though.

Quadra + Expander might do what you want, too.
ETP
isn't the eowhatever just a comparator?
Dcramer
ETP wrote:
isn't the eowhatever just a comparator?

Essentially yes, you can use a comparator to derive a gate from any spot in the changing function.
Mouse, take a look at the Pitts Envelope, the A-172-2 or WMD mini Slew, or of course the Intellijel Quadra and expander. thumbs up
mousegarden
Dcramer wrote:
ETP wrote:
isn't the eowhatever just a comparator?

Essentially yes, you can use a comparator to derive a gate from any spot in the changing function.
Mouse, take a look at the Pitts Envelope, the A-172-2 or WMD mini Slew, or of course the Intellijel Quadra and expander. thumbs up


Yeah, the Quadra was on my short list, but I think I'm definitly going to need the Expander... d'oh!
gis_sweden
This is not a Krell patch but generative... Well to some extent at least. A simple but nice patch. Classic generative ambient music?
Loooong recording eek! My longest I think.
Analog modules. Digital reverbs.

mdg
Whew! Just read this whole thread in one sitting and took copious notes. Thanks for the collected wisdom all.

Posting (way after the fact) some of my favorite contemporary generative Eurorack pieces below for inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/sound/vida.html
(also would be super grateful if anyone wants to share observations/patch ideas in this style)

Feel like it might be a bit too simplistic to propose a like, taxonomy of generative patching, but broad brushstrokes it seems like there's a few main approaches here-

1) the "Krell" side of things with self-modulating/'phasing' AD envelopes trigger randoms via EOC

2) The CV Mixer approach where non-synced cycling CV sources are mixed with Randoms/non-linear (or sequence?) mod information than stemmed out to various audio sources.

3) 'Diatonic'/harmonic generative approaches where sequencers are offset/combined than quantitized for infinite Terry Riley/KFW 'generators' vibes.

Curious if anyone would cosign on this or feels theres other 'schools' of patching here!
gis_sweden
Interesting.
My first thought is that we end up in a discussion about what music is.
More random means less musical.
Then “we” have this technical interest in different patches and a love for
electronic sounds. This seldom leeds to music loved outside this “we”.

GENERATIVE NOISE <----------------------------------> GENERATIVE NICE

I have two patches in my synth right now. They are technically interesting but I
doubt many people will consider their joined sounds as nice. There is too much
random, but that was my intension. It is music but – because I have an intension
and I made the patches etc, but it’s not easy listening.
----edit-------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------
Play Him Off, Keyboard Cat.
Here is the result.
2 unrelated patches. 2 sounds. I call the patches "The Double Square And Friends"
and "Rather Unstable 'Audio to CV' Feedback Via VCF"

This recording highlights the scale above.

It is music but I don't think its of any interest outside a limited group. A very limited group :-)

I have begun to "save" some of my patches in graphic form. Would be interesting to what
someone else makes out of them...

jikay
Here's one from me

gis_sweden
jikay wrote:
Here's one from me


Definitively “Generative Nice”! Well balanced. Sweet sounds. The music is worth a video showing something else than some synths hihi
giftculture
jikay wrote:
Here's one from me



This sounds gorgeous! Any patch notes to share?
jikay
gis_sweden wrote:
jikay wrote:
Here's one from me


Definitively “Generative Nice”! Well balanced. Sweet sounds. The music is worth a video showing something else than some synths hihi


Appreciate it

giftculture wrote:


This sounds gorgeous! Any patch notes to share?


Thanks, from what I can remember...

Patch started from setting up a basic Krell style patch on the 0-coast (explained in better detail here) the only difference being I used a channel of the Doepfer quantiser between the random & 1v per octave input to keep things in key. The 0-coast's audio is then patched into the Morphagene along with 0-coast the clock signal controlling Morphagene's record CV. A trigger out from the quantiser is patched into the Morphagene's splice input. The audio then goes into Clouds.

I sent random pulse from the turing machine into the 0-Coast's envelope trigger and the envelope out is patched into Cloud's freeze input which causes it to randomly hold sections of the audio in it's freeze buffer, the length of which can be adjusted with the envelope.

I used a stackable to take a copy of the EOC output from the 0-coast slope section into the Turing Machine's clock. The turing machine was patched into the second quantiser channel and then into the Erebus to create a second melody (you hear this panned to the right)

The 3rd melody is one I programmed into the Microbrute's in built sequencer and used a random pulse out from the turing machine to trigger each new step (this is heard panned to the left)

The audio is then sent into ableton on separate tracks, a little chorus and a lot of reverb were added there.

There's probably a few patches missed from description that but should give you some ideas if you have similar modules.
ModusOp
Just read through this entire thread (again) after seeing it pop up again recently, but this time took some notes.

Definitely one of my favorite reads... right up there with the Krell in Euro thread. Really sparks a lot of patching ideas in the ol' noggin that I'm looking forward to trying.

Anyhow, since I didn't see it in here, and in case anyone missed it, this video by our very own stromcat (mylarmelodies) is chock full o' great tips and sheds more light on how some of the aforementioned modules and techniques can be used.

digits
Here's a long take of a self-generating patch I developed for my eurorack system. The heart of the thing is the Make Noise Wogglebug, Mutable Instruments Branches, Turing Machine mkii, and Xaoc Batumi. Hope you dig.

[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/334352467" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_use r=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]
musicalfungus
This is an amazing treasure trove of generative ideas! Thank you to everyone who has shared so far!
C3P4
Thanks everyone for sharing all these great ideas! Here's my take on the self generating patch. My goal was to have a Krell patch that was tempo locked so I could pair the modular with drums.

The main voice is the mix out from the Harmonic Osc modulated by two Pitts envelopes. Env 1 is multed to harmonics 1, 3, 5, 7 and Env 2 is multed to harmonics 2, 4, 6, 8. The H.O. mix out goes through an Optomix modulated by PEG ch. 1. This is where the tempo sync happens. PEG is clocked by Drumbrute clock out. The other voice is the square out from the H.O. going through the Pitts Filter. Filter cutoff modulated by PEG ch. 2.

[s]https://soundcloud.com/adrosaurus/tempo-krell-with-drums[/s]

This one is the same patch with some minor tweaks without the drums:
[s]https://soundcloud.com/adrosaurus/tempo-krell[/s]
Umcorps
I'm posting a crosslink to this thread in the Eurorack section because there's a lot of overlap between the discussions.

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2467227#2467227
pugix
digits wrote:
Here's a long take of a self-generating patch I developed for my eurorack system. The heart of the thing is the Make Noise Wogglebug, Mutable Instruments Branches, Turing Machine mkii, and Xaoc Batumi. Hope you dig.

[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/334352467" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_use r=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]


I like this one! It results in a similar style, if one could call it, to what I've been working on.

Take note that my approach uses no random elements. No sampled noise, etc.
It also uses no regular beats, although because of periodic sampling of CV, beats happen for a while at times.

http://pugix.com/synth/more-generative-experiments/
cptnal
Quote:
I like this one! It results in a similar style, if one could call it, to what I've been working on.

Take note that my approach uses no random elements. No sampled noise, etc.
It also uses no regular beats, although because of periodic sampling of CV, beats happen for a while at times.

http://pugix.com/synth/more-generative-experiments/

Fascinating stuff!

You've mentioned S&H in the patch notes, but nothing I would recognize as fulfilling that role. Have I missed something, or would you care to share what you're using for that part?
pugix
cptnal wrote:
Quote:
I like this one! It results in a similar style, if one could call it, to what I've been working on.

Take note that my approach uses no random elements. No sampled noise, etc.
It also uses no regular beats, although because of periodic sampling of CV, beats happen for a while at times.

http://pugix.com/synth/more-generative-experiments/

Fascinating stuff!

You've mentioned S&H in the patch notes, but nothing I would recognize as fulfilling that role. Have I missed something, or would you care to share what you're using for that part?


Thank you!

I updated the post to describe how I made four of the clocked sample and holds out of Serge modules. The fifth is the self-contained Bugbrand Noise Crusher. I didn't link to that, but if you use the 'noise' tag or search for noise on my site, you will find it.
cptnal
pugix wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Quote:
I like this one! It results in a similar style, if one could call it, to what I've been working on.

Take note that my approach uses no random elements. No sampled noise, etc.
It also uses no regular beats, although because of periodic sampling of CV, beats happen for a while at times.

http://pugix.com/synth/more-generative-experiments/

Fascinating stuff!

You've mentioned S&H in the patch notes, but nothing I would recognize as fulfilling that role. Have I missed something, or would you care to share what you're using for that part?


Thank you!

I updated the post to describe how I made four of the clocked sample and holds out of Serge modules. The fifth is the self-contained Bugbrand Noise Crusher. I didn't link to that, but if you use the 'noise' tag or search for noise on my site, you will find it.


Phew! Thanks, but it looks a bit rich for my blood. Guess it's something I'll have to work up to. eek!
soggybag
Mini-Wave with a low frequency at the input used as a CV source into VCO. use another LFO or CV to switch banks.
pugix
soggybag wrote:
Mini-Wave with a low frequency at the input used as a CV source into VCO. use another LFO or CV to switch banks.


Miniwave is great as a complex LFO! What Miniwave do you have?

Here is my build:

http://pugix.com/synth/blacet-research-mw2090-mini-wave/
mikmanner
Thanks a bunch for all the ideas in this thread has made for a great read. I'm going to aim to get Chance, 2HP Tune and Batumi to see what I can come up with in this style. Having difficulty deciding between Batumi and the Octocontroller but the self-patching aspects of the Batumi have me most interested.
pugix
I'm looking at Bastl Tromso for complex patterns. It's really perfect, because it is similar to the Bugbrand Noise Crusher. Has a wide range VCO/LFO, comparator, and sample and hold. Five of these could be put into a cycle, like I described on a recent post, and you would get patterns much like my Quantisise. I can't find any similar module on modulargrid. Many S&H also include noise source, which is not needed for this. I looked at combining 2hp dual S&H with 2hp Clock. But a ramp or triangle output is missing. That's essential to be sampled by the S&H in another module in the loop.

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/bastl-instruments-tromso-aluminum-panel
gis_sweden
A coming home from work patch. Soon enough I will sort out what I have done...
I can tell you one thing. Master clock is Hexinverter Électronique Jupiter Storm. A clock does not have to be a steady pulse...
Trigger out (IV) from Jupiter Storm goes via clock divider to a sequencer and back to Jupiter Storm (CV1). Some sort of feed back.

jupiter storm > clock divider > sequencer > jupiter storm
(A sloth is connected to the sequencer hold in)

EDIT: What’s so great about that, you ask? Well IF the sequencer frequency is high AND the LFO frequency is high enough
to kick in hold on the sequencer you get a nice row with fast high tones, like at 5:16 in the video hihi


dooj88
pugix wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Quote:
I like this one! It results in a similar style, if one could call it, to what I've been working on.

Take note that my approach uses no random elements. No sampled noise, etc.
It also uses no regular beats, although because of periodic sampling of CV, beats happen for a while at times.

http://pugix.com/synth/more-generative-experiments/

Fascinating stuff!

You've mentioned S&H in the patch notes, but nothing I would recognize as fulfilling that role. Have I missed something, or would you care to share what you're using for that part?


Thank you!

I updated the post to describe how I made four of the clocked sample and holds out of Serge modules. The fifth is the self-contained Bugbrand Noise Crusher. I didn't link to that, but if you use the 'noise' tag or search for noise on my site, you will find it.


been having a blast listening to your generative patches. the ones from august 1st made me smile a few times, these machines make silly sounds sometimes.

i'm slowly working my way to generative patches, my time is split between that and lush drones.. i'm in no rush to learn all the tricks and tips though, i love all the experimentation. anyway, thanks for all that detail on your site, cool to see other people's interest and processes.
gis_sweden
Text edited: Maybe this is considered rude in some way but Todd Bartons mysterious
Aleph patch gives me no rest.

It is fun to flick the switch and start the chaos. Flick it again and let the synth find equilibrium.
On, off, on, off, on, off. But what happens if you switch it off and leaves it off.
Let us drone with the modular synth to the end.

I wanted to achieve about the same function as the Aleph patch has. The switch flicking part, and
the impression of the synth seeking equilibrium. I know I did not use the same modules as Barton.
My patch is something else. In my note block I will call it the “Down 2 Zero Patch”. w00t

lisa
My first fully generative patch.

Dcramer
Great to see this thread growing!

Here's my latest shadow inducing pile-o-cables from a couple of weeks ago:

This patch is actually unfinished butwould be if I didn't run out of cables!

The patch is based on three interlinked chaos modules which produce nine correlated control voltages.
These voltages are used to create every aspect of the patch.

The Chaos Engine controls the SMR which controls four different musical parts:
A two voice brassy sounding lead part
A four voice, morphing filter, chord part
A plucked string and percussion part
A stereo, phaser organ part
These four parts are made up of eight oscillators.

A complex logic matrix is used to ensure that only two sine waves are output from the SMR and that these two voices cover every possible two note interval.

The audio mix of the four parts slowly morph and change over a four and a half minute cycle to create a form to the piece.

Every two minutes or so, a four second, stereo sample is recorded and looped.
This four second loop is a recording of the full stereo mix that loops four to six times as it crossfades back to the ongoing mix.

These looped sections are used to create musical repeats of short sections to combat the randomness of the pitch selections.



To hear the entire piece, with all of the seamless morphing and none of the audio edits, checkout the Bandcamp release:

https://queertunes.bandcamp.com/album/the-rite

bandcamp width=100% height=120 album=2463457613 size=large bgcol=ffffff linkcol=0687f5 tracklist=false artwork=small]

If since completely unplugged this patch and created another based on similar elements; the SMR brassy tones and the Elements plucked string sound. Only this time the melody is generation is a lot more controlled, I used voltage controlled scales, and the whole thing is set on a very ambient background. w00t
Parnelli
http://soundcloud.com/gary-yantz/2min-krell

This is a bit from a 10 minute piece. I just got a second Maths, and being able to drive long drones to the oscillator and filter from different Maths modules made quite a difference over running everything off of one Maths.
cptnal
Just listened on my phone, so if there's any bass I missed it. d'oh!
Top end sounds good though. applause
Parnelli
Yeah there's some pretty cool bottom end/sub bass things happening in the background sometimes oozing to the forefront, and thank you if you were addressing me!

That's pretty cool Dcramer! I like the brassy overtones. I was going to ask about the "chaos engine", but I see it's more a module and not a patch per se. I also like your idea (posted in another thread) of making smaller "engines" to run larger pieces of music; I was thinking along this line some time back but haven't really approached it yet.

Probably don't need to worry much about it yet because of hardware limitations, but it's on my mind.

Thanks all! I'm enjoying the "Regenerative Music", although I'm thinking that I am far better suited to make "Degenerative Music" in the long run! nanners
Dcramer
^thanks w00t
In My piece, the Rite, the Chaos Engine is made up of three different Fritz chaos modules, each modulating the next in a tail chasing loop.

It took a while to get them all tuned, running slowly, and affecting each other Rockin' Banana!

I’ll often start patches by experimenting with these little structures, sometimes moving the between audio and control rate. Guinness ftw!
cptnal
cptnal wrote:
pugix wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Quote:
I like this one! It results in a similar style, if one could call it, to what I've been working on.

Take note that my approach uses no random elements. No sampled noise, etc.
It also uses no regular beats, although because of periodic sampling of CV, beats happen for a while at times.

http://pugix.com/synth/more-generative-experiments/

Fascinating stuff!

You've mentioned S&H in the patch notes, but nothing I would recognize as fulfilling that role. Have I missed something, or would you care to share what you're using for that part?


Thank you!

I updated the post to describe how I made four of the clocked sample and holds out of Serge modules. The fifth is the self-contained Bugbrand Noise Crusher. I didn't link to that, but if you use the 'noise' tag or search for noise on my site, you will find it.


Phew! Thanks, but it looks a bit rich for my blood. Guess it's something I'll have to work up to. eek!


Since this thread came back round I had another look at your cyclic S&H thing. Makes perfect sense now! I must be getting the hang of this screaming goo yo
Of course, now I must try it myself...
pugix
Dcramer wrote:
^thanks w00t
In My piece, the Rite, the Chaos Engine is made up of three different Fritz chaos modules, each modulating the next in a tail chasing loop.

It took a while to get them all tuned, running slowly, and affecting each other Rockin' Banana!

I’ll often start patches by experimenting with these little structures, sometimes moving the between audio and control rate. Guinness ftw!


I like the richness of the sounds in The Rite. That's is an area where I need to spend more time. My working process has generally been to come up with a complex control voltage generator and then make an audio path with usually two voices that I can control with a dozen or so CV outputs.

I've decided to call this sort of composition 'automatic music' rather than generative, because of the Brian Eno connotations of the latter term.

Here are a few segments from a patch I did yesterday.

http://pugix.com/synth/new-years-eve-automatic-music/

Today I want to try speeding up the CV loop, maybe into the audio region, and see what happens. It might turn out to be mush, but I'm hoping for a complex drone.
gis_sweden
pugix wrote:
Here are a few segments from a patch I did yesterday.

Very inspiring thumbs up
Right now I'm reading your text about "quantussy cells". A nice "engine", without need for special modules. I like that.
pugix
gis_sweden wrote:
pugix wrote:
Here are a few segments from a patch I did yesterday.

Very inspiring thumbs up
Right now I'm reading your text about "quantussy cells". A nice "engine", without need for special modules. I like that.


Thank you!

After trying some whiz-bang modules, often having quirky designs to support specific working techniques imagined by the designers, I am coming back to the idea of combining basic modules in creative ways, which is what modular is about.
gis_sweden
Inspired by pugix I began to patch – in VCV-Rack. In the real world I don’t have enough S/H modules.
I have one (1) S/H. I have Function to but that friend needs a very special trigger to work as a proper S/H.
What can I do with one S/H. I can make a “Q-Relative”. A small cousin to the "Quantussy Cell". It looks like this.
(I have used Function as slew. I can control both rise and fall with one cv. Not unique but nice.)

Works well, but alone it does not sound that amazing.
Now think on Q-Relative as this cell/engine/sub routine

Make three of them and let them work together like this.

I have made this in VCV-Rack. Please let me hear the real thing! I log in tomorrow and listen.
It's peanut butter jelly time!
pugix
gis_sweden wrote:
Inspired by pugix I began to patch – in VCV-Rack. In the real world I don’t have enough S/H modules.
I have one (1) S/H. I have Function to but that friend needs a very special trigger to work as a proper S/H.
What can I do with one S/H. I can make a “Q-Relative”. A small cousin to the "Quantussy Cell". It looks like this.
(I have used Function as slew. I can control both rise and fall with one cv. Not unique but nice.)

Works well, but alone it does not sound that amazing.
Now think on Q-Relative as this cell/engine/sub routine

Make three of them and let them work together like this.

I have made this in VCV-Rack. Please let me hear the real thing! I log in tomorrow and listen.
It's peanut butter jelly time!


I don't understand how the labels on the block correspond to the internals. Is S&H actually in the Q-Relative block? It looks almost as if it is external and supplying the CV to the Slew, the VCO and the VC-LFO (the red line), which would match the LFO CV IN on the block. What does RISE AND FALL IN go to?

You added an audio VCO to this structure to make it a sound module. That is interesting. My approach, so far, has been to have a much higher ratio of LFOs to VCOs. A seven-cell Quantussy would have seven LFOs. I might control two or three VCOs with it.
NiteEagle
gis_sweden wrote:
Inspired by pugix I began to patch...
I have made this in VCV-Rack. Please let me hear the real thing! I log in tomorrow and listen.


Is the .vcv file available to download from somewhere?
AW198
As others have said, this thread is a goldmine for ideas!
90% of what I end up patching is tonal, ambient, and self-generating (or semi-self-generating, rather), so this has been a great read. My 2c is that I find there's a fine line keeping SG patches musical - you've gotta balance keeping the patch overall the same, but with enough variation to keep the listener's interest.

I tend to:
- play tempo-synced sequences with different lengths (e.g. 31 steps + 27 steps) so that the notes go out of sync.
- quantise OSCs to chords with 7ths and 9ths, as this with multiple sequences will create some lovely unexpected chords.
- keep the sequences fairly consistent sounding, and then using modulation of timbres to add the interest. Slow LFOs, random S&H, voltage controlled LFOs with triggers (wait did someone say Maths?? hihi )

It's particularly nice to slowly modulate the sequence tempo while using a constant-speed pingpong delay (guitar pedals work well) to get an evolving rhythmic relationship between the delay input and the delay itself. Use plucks/quick sounds and you'll lose yourself in the neon snowstorm...
gis_sweden
pugix wrote:
I don't understand how the labels on the block correspond to the internals. Is S&H actually in the Q-Relative block? It looks almost as if it is external and supplying the CV to the Slew

Oops you are right! Thx! S/H are triggered with the SQR from LFO. Here is an updated picture (beta version :-)


pugix wrote:
the VCO and the VC-LFO (the red line), which would match the LFO CV IN on the block. What does RISE AND FALL IN go to?

Yep, also unclear. Good. Look at picture above.

Good work as editor thumbs up

Is it more clear now???
gis_sweden
NiteEagle wrote:
Is the .vcv file available to download from somewhere?

Tomorrow... I add a dl link in this forum.
gis_sweden
One alone "q-relative" sounds - not that interesting seriously, i just don't get it
But here is a sample.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/414730/

EDIT:
The "Q-Relative" can be quiet for minutes. Silence is golden...
Actually silence is rarely occurring in modular music. (hides)

My Q-Relative consists of
VCLFO: Doepfer A-147-2 VCDLFO
S/H: AS RS-40
SLEW: Make Noise Function
VCO: Hexinverter Jupiter Storm (not in the recording obove...)
resynthesize
great thread, i'll throw my humble offering onto the pile. This is all being driven by the klee sequencer feeding into the instruo harmanoig being clocked very, very slowly with lots of random cross modulation and triggers to lots of cv. the whole mix is processed through the l1 microcompressor to give the pumping/breathing sound. no manual tweaking at all!

[s]https://soundcloud.com/resynthesize/autocomposition[/s]
pugix
gis_sweden wrote:
pugix wrote:
I don't understand how the labels on the block correspond to the internals. Is S&H actually in the Q-Relative block? It looks almost as if it is external and supplying the CV to the Slew

Oops you are right! Thx! S/H are triggered with the SQR from LFO. Here is an updated picture (beta version :-)


pugix wrote:
the VCO and the VC-LFO (the red line), which would match the LFO CV IN on the block. What does RISE AND FALL IN go to?

Yep, also unclear. Good. Look at picture above.

Good work as editor thumbs up

Is it more clear now???


Thanks. I still don't understand why the block LFO CV IN and RISE AND FALL IN show as external inputs, since internally it seems that they are connected together (and to the VCO CV), coming from the S&H output. Can you add the external inputs to your block diagram?

Couple of other observations: I take it that the input to the S&H is noise, meaning that the output is random. I avoid randomness in the Quantussy Cell, by sampling ramp or triangle waves from other cells.

Secondly, since the LFO, VCO, and Slew Rate are all driven by the same S&H output, they will be correlated. Whenever a S&H output feeds back to its own clock rate, the result is you get a quick series of samples until a low value causes a long pause between. If you use a rate limited S&H (where the output of the S&H is mixed back with the input), then the output step size is reduced because the next output value is relative to the current one. That would make it less random.

Thirdly, if you're using the Slew output as an envelope, then depending on whether the rate is increased or decreased by the RISE AND FALL CV IN, there will be short high notes, or short low notes.
Dcramer
Pugix! This whole thing is brilliant!
I really need some time with your text and my system to explore this. we're not worthy
gis_sweden
Hmmm.
Now maybe I understand what you mean. You can patch up one “Single Q-Relative” alone. I will be an autonomous “music” generator. Then it should be described like this:


But when using multiple “Q-Relatives” and let them work together they should maybe be pictured like this:


Here is a link to a .vcv file:
https://app.box.com/s/qz6ld07g4mpzd132eve5qsdk0ruxh6k6
You need Audible Instruments and Befaco. I’m not yet 100% friend with the Befaco Slew… There should be a S/H in the Fundamental IMO. And here is a screen shot of the file result.


pugix wrote:
I take it that the input to the S&H is noise

This is random, but...

pugix wrote:
Secondly, since the LFO, VCO, and Slew Rate are all driven by the same S&H output, they will be correlated.

Yes! Thats the thing with this patch. And this "thing" makes it more musical. Playing together.

pugix wrote:
Thirdly, if you're using the Slew output as an envelope, then depending on whether the rate is increased or decreased by the RISE AND FALL CV IN, there will be short high notes, or short low notes.

Yep, correct. Invert the signal if you want :-) But this is meant to be a simple patch, even thou I dont yet have the right modules. (But I do have a several looping envelopes with input for rise and fall and EOC etc. Very usable. I have 2 dual quantizer. I could use that as S/H. Maybe I will be able to make my own "Q-Relative x 3 patch". I'm working on another patch idea to. But that have to wait. I have taken up far too much space here now zombie )
Shledge
I posted this on another thread:
Quote:
Using clock dividers as toggle switches/flip flops, which is useful for:
- muting/unmuting sounds via CV
- advancing sequential switches once every start/stop, so you can trigger different melodies at different parts
- making basic conditionals eg. if 4 triggers are sent, turn on CV to enable a sequence
- tie it with a logic module to have more advanced conditionals like if/else statements, boolean logic etc. to trigger events. For example, if two gates match, send a trigger to clock divider which will then send a gate to turn on a sequence.
- using the above, you can make truly generative music in not just melodies, but composition too in terms of generating specific parts, rests etc.
pugix
gis_sweden wrote:
You can patch up one “Single Q-Relative” alone. I will be an autonomous “music” generator. Then it should be described like this:


But when using multiple “Q-Relatives” and let them work together they should maybe be pictured like this:




That's clarifies it all. Thanks! I am going to experiment with multiple Q-Relative blocks. I'll post about it on pugix.com.
pugix
I did something, sort of based on the Q-Relative idea.

http://pugix.com/synth/q-relative-patch/
Dcramer
I still need to test this cool little Q-relative patch but in the meantime I’ve been sidetracked by a variation in which I’m modulating the rise and fall of a Function Generator with a CV recording of the same Function Generator that repeats at different rates, stretching and compressing (by modulating playback rate) and then records another CV loop after a given number of cycles.
I’ve been able to get both the Disting delay and Brainseed to operate as the CV recorder.
I’ll post details if I start to get something interesting. w00t
gis_sweden
pugix wrote:
I did something, sort of based on the Q-Relative idea.

Nice presentation pugix. Thanks a lot for your help. As you write, you diagram is a little hard to follow.

Each Q-Relative shall have its own S/H or quantizer clocked from the Q-Relative block CVLFO.

The "thing" is that all Q-Relative blocks share the same random cv from the mixer. A random cv that controls both LFO speed and the slew.

When this conditions are, the oscillators will follow each other like fishes in a shoal. As controlled by some living thing...

Here is my first "real" Q-Relative patch (not on a virtual modular). Instead of CVLFO and slews I use looping envelopes (Intellijel Quadra + expander). I use one S/H (AS RS-40) and two quantizers (Doepfer A-156). As oscillators I use Hexinverter Jupiter Storm (3 osc). Se picture on video.

Now I will try calibrate the patch so that the Q-Relative idea is clear.
gis_sweden
Me again... Mr. Green
Here is a 2nd recording of a Q-Relative patch.
gis_sweden
Just one more (hides)
Promise to unpatch now...
gis_sweden
What have I done? Is it some sort of unstable flip flop patch?
(I neeeed more stackables!!! help )
panfriedcharlie
Turing Machine in combination with Volts and quantization can get you some really interesting duophonic random melodies.

EoR/EoC from Maths in combination with a clock divider and sequential switch can get really complex sequences of phasing triggers that are controllable in any number of ways.

Speaking of Maths, the logic mixer (AND/OR/SUM) can combine modulated CVs in a way that work really nicely with VCAs for simply controlling volume or filter cutoff.
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
What have I done? Is it some sort of unstable flip flop patch?
(I neeeed more stackables!!! help )


Fun indeed. applause

Which logic outs are you tapping?
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Which logic outs are you tapping?

The achieve the flip flip effect I think you should try or and nor...
Try different combinations. I'm not 100% sure what I used seriously, i just don't get it
I have a bartonmusicalcircuits dual logic (DIY). You change logic with a
potentiometer and there are no clear intervals when you change logic.
But other than that it works fine.
cptnal
panfriedcharlie wrote:
Turing Machine in combination with Volts and quantization can get you some really interesting duophonic random melodies.

EoR/EoC from Maths in combination with a clock divider and sequential switch can get really complex sequences of phasing triggers that are controllable in any number of ways.

Speaking of Maths, the logic mixer (AND/OR/SUM) can combine modulated CVs in a way that work really nicely with VCAs for simply controlling volume or filter cutoff.


Nice first post. Welcome! thumbs up
pugix
gis_sweden wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Which logic outs are you tapping?

The achieve the flip flip effect I think you should try or and nor...
Try different combinations. I'm not 100% sure what I used seriously, i just don't get it
I have a bartonmusicalcircuits dual logic (DIY). You change logic with a
potentiometer and there are no clear intervals when you change logic.
But other than that it works fine.


Thanks for that patch video and diagram! I'll be looking at a Pico Logic module now. Or two. smile
jmila
I don't think I saw any love for the SSF Ultra Random here, but I really like using it in generative patches. I find it useful to have a clocked and an unclocked S&H right there. Also, I'm constantly discovering new things using logic... here's a great mylarmelodies video about the power of logic.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DulDZSsMUpY

And... a DIY super sloth? I haven't built one yet but they seem really fun!
AW198
Recently discovered that turning on and off fast sequences with an LFO which has the rate modulated by a random source is a good way to get a combination of note runs and single notes
gis_sweden
jmila wrote:
And... a DIY super sloth? I haven't built one yet but they seem really fun!

Agree! I have 2 regular Sloths. Will probably build a slow one in the future.

But I have increased the number of sample and holds in my rack!
I blame pugix Mr. Green
Now I know you can use them for more than "just random". I'm learning.
(I will search for someone willing to sell me A-147 AND A-148.)
Quantussyfication
The short recording has 2 quantussy cells (and a Sloth).
[s]https://soundcloud.com/gis_sweden/i-need[/s]
pugix
gis_sweden wrote:
jmila wrote:
And... a DIY super sloth? I haven't built one yet but they seem really fun!

Agree! I have 2 regular Sloths. Will probably build a slow one in the future.

But I have increased the number of sample and holds in my rack!
I blame pugix Mr. Green
Now I know you can use them for more than "just random". I'm learning.
(I will search for someone willing to sell me A-147 AND A-148.)
Quantussyfication
The short recording has 2 quantussy cells (and a Sloth).
[s]https://soundcloud.com/gis_sweden/i-need[/s]


Nice one. applause

If you have fewer sample and holds, you can still make Quantussy-like cells by leaving out the S&H that samples the CV for its own cell. That way you only need one S&H per 'cell', and the cell is essentially a clocked sample and hold with a ramp or triangle output too. Put an odd number of these in a ring and there you go.
gis_sweden
pugix wrote:
If you have fewer sample and holds, you can still make Quantussy-like cells by leaving out the S&H that samples the CV for its own cell. That way you only need one S&H per 'cell', and the cell is essentially a clocked sample and hold with a ramp or triangle output too. Put an odd number of these in a ring and there you go.

Thanks for listening and guiding thumbs up
Tried the light-quantussy-cheat-hint. Didnt have much time today, and I think I did something wrong...
But when I injected some "outside" CV thing happened. Generative Patch Of Today.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/417128/
I like the woody bass sound. #AbsoluteNoQuantizer
You keep writing about using an odd number of cells. I don't understand why an odd number should be better...?
croute
Here my last self generating patch...i just change the pitch from my 10 baby sequencer wich change the FM of my 2 Doepfer VCO
[/img]https://youtu.be/BZTRDPBEOlI
gis_sweden
Please do this at home :-)

https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/417472/
4 cross modulated/connected looping envelopes phasing in and out of some sort of equalibrium.
Cross connected in pairs... Lot of spring reverb...

https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/417473/
3 chain connected looping envelopes slowly finding a rhythm. At the start of the recording I set the tree envelopes at random loop length. Slowly they work their way to a more simple rhythm. Why? At about 2 minutes the rhythm is rather short phrase.

(Right now I have another rhythm slowly finding its inner form... Beeping in the background... Hmmm, I think it has found it's form now thumbs up )
pugix
Would you explain how chain connected looping envelopes are patched?
gis_sweden
pugix wrote:
Would you explain how chain connected looping envelopes are patched?

Maybe it should be called something else?
It's simple as this:
pugix
gis_sweden wrote:
pugix wrote:
Would you explain how chain connected looping envelopes are patched?

Maybe it should be called something else?
It's simple as this:


Voltage-controlled decay? What envelope generators are these? Could be Pip Slopes in cycling mode.
gis_sweden
pugix wrote:
Voltage-controlled decay? What envelope generators are these? Could be Pip Slopes in cycling mode.

Voltage-controlled decay... Why not :-)
I use Intellijel Quadra + Expander. Easy to work with.
3 Pip slopes should be fine (I have one).

I have made some tests with 1 looping envelope and 2 VCLFOs as a combination. Works. But it's harder for them to find a pattern. Maybe because there is a combination of positive and negative cv?
(Function, Tromsö and A-147-2)
Two tests.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/417494/
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/417495/
I have comments on freesound.
gis_sweden
w00t
It IS nice to create a moving unstable rhythm with looping envelopes. There are no triggers involved. Okay, one, EOC from one of the envelopes goes to a clock divider and that triggers the drum sound. I inject extra cv to the triad of envelopes to create some extra movement. Maybe too much.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/417612/

Bonus sound. Playing with VCV-Rack and Quantussy cells. Here a patch with three cells. The “bubbly sound” is from the delay. I like that.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/417629/
gis_sweden
Now there is a quantussy cell module for VCV-Rack :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_bT9Ml6aVU
@17:55
Anyone here involved?
gis_sweden

hihi
VortexRanger
I've been releasing pretty much all the stuff languishing in my hard drives for the last ten years, one release per week. Three of the releases are of generative modular pieces. There are some patch notes contained within.

[bandcamp width=100% height=42 album=3497449391 size=small bgcol=ffffff linkcol=e99708]

[bandcamp width=100% height=42 album=1666620033 size=small bgcol=ffffff linkcol=63b2cc]

[bandcamp width=100% height=42 album=3160419228 size=small bgcol=ffffff linkcol=e99708]
JakoGreyshire
Damn that's some good gen Walker!
cptnal
Is "gen" generative? I'll need to ask the kids with whom I am down. hmmm.....

Anyway, nice to hear some actual generative music, rather than that from those who would call theirs generative when they mean ambient. applause
JakoGreyshire
cptnal wrote:
Is "gen" generative? I'll need to ask the kids with whom I am down. hmmm.....

Anyway, nice to hear some actual generative music, rather than that from those who would call theirs generative when they mean ambient. applause


Ha Ha! Yeah I was just being silly when I shortened Generative to "Gen"...
I guess it came off as kind of hipster eh? That's cool... I don't feel so middle aged now... Normally I get slightly annoyed when the younger crowd shortens words. Most of the time it seems to be a lazy way of speaking and not very proper in the everyday world....Totes...OMG... Now that I think about it I was pretty lazy when I typed it out... Ha Ha...

Looking forward to some more Gen Yo! Maybe after a few thing on my list I'll take a crack at some generative "music"..... Wish me luck.... I've been inspired..
AW198
JakoGreyshire wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Is "gen" generative? I'll need to ask the kids with whom I am down. hmmm.....

Anyway, nice to hear some actual generative music, rather than that from those who would call theirs generative when they mean ambient. applause


Ha Ha! Yeah I was just being silly when I shortened Generative to "Gen"...
I guess it came off as kind of hipster eh? That's cool... I don't feel so middle aged now... Normally I get slightly annoyed when the younger crowd shortens words. Most of the time it seems to be a lazy way of speaking and not very proper in the everyday world....Totes...OMG... Now that I think about it I was pretty lazy when I typed it out... Ha Ha...

Looking forward to some more Gen Yo! Maybe after a few thing on my list I'll take a crack at some generative "music"..... Wish me luck.... I've been inspired..


Now I feel young zombie
wackelpeter
Perhaps not the stuff that's usually done with a modular synth... but at the end of the last year i was a bit depressed by the winter aproaching so i decided i would inivte the summer back into my home via my DI-modular...

trying to get something like the sounds of a summer Meadow wiht some birds, fly, cricket and wind blowing into the microphone...

A lot of panning and mostly my Serge VCS, 1973 EnvGen, DUSG DIY-stripboard clones and friends doing the work....


Added some bits of the stuff i recorded within last year to soundcloud...maybe some more to follow but the export from my HD-Recorder is so lame.... it takes literally hours...

(perhaps) enjoy and keep the spring coming... smile

[s]https://soundcloud.com/bastian-j/summer-meadow[/s]
cptnal
wackelpeter wrote:
Perhaps not the stuff that's usually done with a modular synth... but at the end of the last year i was a bit depressed by the winter aproaching so i decided i would inivte the summer back into my home via my DI-modular...

trying to get something like the sounds of a summer Meadow wiht some birds, fly, cricket and wind blowing into the microphone...

A lot of panning and mostly my Serge VCS, 1973 EnvGen, DUSG DIY-stripboard clones and friends doing the work....


Added some bits of the stuff i recorded within last year to soundcloud...maybe some more to follow but the export from my HD-Recorder is so lame.... it takes literally hours...

(perhaps) enjoy and keep the spring coming... smile

[s]https://soundcloud.com/bastian-j/summer-meadow[/s]


applause Really clever!
Umcorps
I'd forgotten about this thread!

Here's a recent exploration of shift registers in a very small system.

Using Disting's take on the Turing Machine type shift register. One disting is set to produce an evolving melodic sequence. The other is set up to produce dual quantised random triggers. One of these is used to clock the first disting, the other is used to trigger a drum voice in Braids.

Warps in wave folder mode is fed with the modulating oscillator from Shapeshifter. Shapeshifter and Warps are getting modulation patterns from a knob recorder. With Warps this has a wide enough range to kill the output completely at the lower end so the Warps line fades in and out. It's gated by a x4 clock multiple. Drone Commander burbles in the background.

gis_sweden
wackelpeter wrote:
Perhaps not the stuff that's usually done with a modular synth...

Yes, lovely. Bird chips are classic. This is next level chirps!


Umcorps wrote:
I'd forgotten about this thread!
Here's a recent exploration of shift registers in a very small system.

Good looking modular! Clever and nice sounding patch.

Thanks! applause
cptnal
Umcorps wrote:
I'd forgotten about this thread!

Here's a recent exploration of shift registers in a very small system.

Using Disting's take on the Turing Machine type shift register. One disting is set to produce an evolving melodic sequence. The other is set up to produce dual quantised random triggers. One of these is used to clock the first disting, the other is used to trigger a drum voice in Braids.

Warps in wave folder mode is fed with the modulating oscillator from Shapeshifter. Shapeshifter and Warps are getting modulation patterns from a knob recorder. With Warps this has a wide enough range to kill the output completely at the lower end so the Warps line fades in and out. It's gated by a x4 clock multiple. Drone Commander burbles in the background.



How I've missed this rack! Nice to know it's still getting good use. we're not worthy
wackelpeter
Thanks for the kind words and glad you liked it. This was the first time i used all of my 5kg of patch cables. grin
JakoGreyshire
Nice job! Summer Meadow is superb. I want to start searching for more sound design threads now.... I hope they're out there.. Bird chirps, ocean waves, whatever.. I did find the Beaver & Krause - Spaced/THX Sound thread awhile back...that was a cool thread.

I don't want to blow this thread off topic I just wanted to say that I liked the the Summer meadows and the Trishift shift register stuff from Umcorps... and, you all are great for all the inspiration, everybody on this thread.. Thanks!
gis_sweden
Machine Composition recording session. I use a 5 quantussy cells ring, Jupiter Storm, a filter (Uoki-Toki Polivoks VCF) and a wave rectifier (BMC Full Wave Dual Rectifier). The bass part goes through the filter. The alto part through the rectifier. The soprano is straight from Jupiter Storm. The drumsound is also from Jupiter Storm.

A radio listening session accompany the synth sounds w00t

gis_sweden
Sorry!
One more... This is so fascinating w00t
pugix
gis_sweden wrote:
Machine Composition recording session. I use a 5 quantussy cells ring, Jupiter Storm, a filter (Uoki-Toki Polivoks VCF) and a wave rectifier (BMC Full Wave Dual Rectifier). The bass part goes through the filter. The alto part through the rectifier. The soprano is straight from Jupiter Storm. The drumsound is also from Jupiter Storm.

A radio listening session accompany the synth sounds w00t



This is great! CQ CQ CQ in Morse Code, too!
pugix
Oops, double post.
Pelsea
This is an impressive thread-- 300+ posts over 7 years and no bad advice.

I am very interested in this thread because autonomous music has been my goal from the start. In fact I have performed many versions under the title "It's supposed to be automatic, but you have to push this button".

One issue I have not seen discussed much here is formal control. The one thing I demanded of my students was that their compositions have a beginning, middle and end. More elaborate forms are encouraged, even if they avoid the traditional ABAB'A. I expect no less of my patches.

The easiest way to achieve this if you have acres of modules is to generate each section with an independent patch and bring everything to a voltage controlled mixer. Then control that mixer with a sequencer in once-around mode or a series of chained envelopes. That's not to say that each sound texture only appears once. They can easily repeat and overlap.

The next level back is to have independent voices that are controlled at the gate level. Logic modules are great for this, with the final switching done by an AND function. Again, the master is a one shot sequence or chained envelopes.

Even the most modest machine can differentiate sections by changes in modulation sources and techniques. This almost requires a VCA on every patch cord, but VCAs are cheaper than complete voices.

All three techniques imply there is a master controller. That is not necessarily so, but a master module or patch will simplify things. I'll leave recommendations to experienced wigglers, but I think the ideal master would be a sequential switch (there are certainly plenty on Modulargrid). Such a switch would control a bank of VCAs (maybe with slew limiting) or route gates to the envelopes in the various voices.
Grumble
gis_sweden
pugix wrote:
This is great! CQ CQ CQ in Morse Code, too!

-.-. --.- :-)
I should have noticed it. But I reach a higher level of autonomous machine
composition if I don't analyse my own "hidden" messages?
My synth is a musical Frankenstein. I'm feeling content with my synth. w00t
cptnal
Here's a concept I've just started experimenting with. It's a variation of the using-end-of-cycle-triggers-to-trigger-the-next-event idea. Instead of patching the a trigger into the next envelope, put them all in a mixer and use the output to trigger a switch. Each channel of the switch triggers a different event. If you have a switch with a random setting, then any event can trigger any other. I'm using Shifty because it generates its own gates and you don't have to pass anything through it. I've also come across end-of-cycle gates, which stay high when the envelope is quiet and confuse the switch. I got round this by patching it through another, short envelope.

I guess for it to be proper generative then each element should be influencing the other in some way. The obvious thing is to have each envelope affect another's cycle time, but like I say it's early days... This is fun!
gis_sweden
-> Link to the sound at Freesound <-
Using an CVLFO in a feedbackloop creating very "chaotic" CV!
Might be useful? hmmm.....
Spring reverb added (A-199).
EDIT:
Forgot the patch-picture d'oh!
Here it is!

Dcramer
cptnal wrote:
Here's a concept I've just started experimenting with. It's a variation of the using-end-of-cycle-triggers-to-trigger-the-next-event idea. Instead of patching the a trigger into the next envelope, put them all in a mixer and use the output to trigger a switch. Each channel of the switch triggers a different event. If you have a switch with a random setting, then any event can trigger any other. I'm using Shifty because it generates its own gates and you don't have to pass anything through it. I've also come across end-of-cycle gates, which stay high when the envelope is quiet and confuse the switch. I got round this by patching it through another, short envelope.

I guess for it to be proper generative then each element should be influencing the other in some way. The obvious thing is to have each envelope affect another's cycle time, but like I say it's early days... This is fun!

Brilliant thumbs up
Neo
Pelsea wrote:

One issue I have not seen discussed much here is formal control. The one thing I demanded of my students was that their compositions have a beginning, middle and end. More elaborate forms are encouraged, even if they avoid the traditional ABAB'A. I expect no less of my patches.

I was trying to achieve generative compositions with their own 'hands off' structure. I spent months making a module that has 4 stepped clocked envelopes that can take minutes or even hours to complete a cycle, depending on the speed of the clock (typically about 1 clock pulse per 'bar'). As soon as I got it working I realised that I'd rather conduct my compositions manually, imposing structure on the generative content. Definitely not a purist approach but I've found it very satisfying creatively. Maybe I should dig out the module again, but I like being part of the process rather than just an observer. Also, I'd feel stupid performing a completely generative piece live. Like one of those DJ's who make a big show of twisting knobs that make no difference.
gis_sweden
Do you like soft organic sounds and nice melodies? Don’t listen to this. hihi
Remember I warned you. In this patch I use the classic trick with CVLFOs
in a feedback ring. In this way the voices interact in a nice way.
Even though the sounds are – harsh – the function of the engine should
be clear. You don’t have to listen for 5 min… But then you might miss
the picture of my wave rectifier.
pugix
gis_sweden wrote:
Do you like soft organic sounds and nice melodies? Don’t listen to this. hihi
Remember I warned you. In this patch I use the classic trick with CVLFOs
in a feedback ring. In this way the voices interact in a nice way.
Even though the sounds are – harsh – the function of the engine should
be clear. You don’t have to listen for 5 min… But then you might miss
the picture of my wave rectifier.


Classic fade out at the end. smile

Nice, if a little repetitive. What reverb did you use?
gis_sweden
pugix wrote:
Classic fade out at the end. smile

Underrated hihi
pugix wrote:
Nice, if a little repetitive. What reverb did you use?

Agree. Tooo long, but I wanted to record some variations in the feedback patch. As reverb I use A-199 and as delay a Joyo Analog Delay (a stomp box). I have some delay on the "soprano part". The the undelayed signal slightly panned right and the delayed signal panned left - in this case. I use the A-138p + A-138o + A-199. I like the send/return function. No external mixer.
gis_sweden
Me again w00t
Back with quantussy cells. In this patch 5 in a ring.
BUT! now I have tried to hold back the synth.
A more limited sacale. 1 cell in the ring is "passive", just giving a puls.
[s]https://soundcloud.com/gis_sweden/in-progress-less-chaos[/s]
Grumble
tardishead
Great thread
Recently made a Clee quantiser
Using white noise thru sample hold to change scales or scale span is epic
Free jazz
if you want to create something melodic that is
gis_sweden
Grumble wrote:

That a on-of synth! Nice sounds.
We joined about the same time :-)
gis_sweden
gis_sweden
My 5 quantussy cells Mr. Green Yes, I bought some new stackables.
[/img]
Dcramer
we're not worthy cute little rectifier you’ve got there!
pugix
This might be appreciated here.

http://pugix.com/synth/automatic-music-july-17-2018/

The control section uses 12 sample & holds, but only five VC clocks. My hand drawn patch diagram isn't ready for publication.
cptnal
pugix wrote:
This might be appreciated here.

http://pugix.com/synth/automatic-music-july-17-2018/

The control section uses 12 sample & holds, but only five VC clocks. My hand drawn patch diagram isn't ready for publication.


OK, I can just about follow what's going on from your pic. I just don't know what those four wooden Bastl thingies are doing. Are they some of the additional S&Hs?

Oh, and cool patch, BTW. The first iteration sounds the more "musical" to these ears. thumbs up
pugix
cptnal wrote:
pugix wrote:
This might be appreciated here.

http://pugix.com/synth/automatic-music-july-17-2018/

The control section uses 12 sample & holds, but only five VC clocks. My hand drawn patch diagram isn't ready for publication.


OK, I can just about follow what's going on from your pic. I just don't know what those four wooden Bastl thingies are doing. Are they some of the additional S&Hs?

Oh, and cool patch, BTW. The first iteration sounds the more "musical" to these ears. thumbs up


Thanks! In these 'automatic' patches the first step is to diagram out a control patch with complex feedback paths. Some of them work better than others. This one turned out pretty good. Yes, the Bastl Tromsø includes a VCO/LFO, a comparator, and a sample & hold. In this patch a CV from one of the Stages outputs goes to the S&H input, which is clocked by the internal LFO, and the S&H output goes back to its own FM input. So, each clock it might change its own rate, depending on how the CV being sampled has changed. I applied the same idea to the URA, with the A/B Toggle out going back to its own clock FM input (through an external attenuator). The more interesting part is how the JF is patched into Stages. Three JF outputs act as gates and three others act as the sample inputs. The six Stages outputs are patched in pairs to three VCAs and then back to JF to control various parameters. The Tromsøs act as the other sample inputs to Stages, plus the other gate inputs. It's so cool to have six more sample & holds, using Stages for that.

As for musicality, it can happen (if it does) with the right tuning. Lot of knobs to set for initial rates, FM depths, etc., just in the control part. And then finding some interesting parameters in the audio path to modulate.
gis_sweden
pugix wrote:
This might be appreciated here.

w00t

Visited your site the other day. Guess I just missed this update.

First recording. Sounds like a mix of a positiv/drehorgel/fairground organ (no, I did not know the English word.
had to search for it.) and music to silent movie.

The second and more "abstract" part. I like the dynamics you get without using VCAs. Much more granular fx.
Makes it more "synthetic"...
cptnal
You could patch the output of one S&H into the input of the next and get yourself a 12-step shift register. eek!
pugix
cptnal wrote:
You could patch the output of one S&H into the input of the next and get yourself a 12-step shift register. eek!


In this patch, some of the S&H inputs come from other S&H outputs. But they're not clocked at the same time.

Doing analog shifter register needs to have a different phase of the clock going to each S&H, because if they receive the clock at the same time it's indeterminate whether the second S&H will see the original or the new value (or junk), as the first S&H transitions at the same time. So if you clock every other S&H in the chain with the inverted clock square wave it should work. Just bear in mind that all the transitions don't happen at once.
pugix
gis_sweden wrote:
pugix wrote:
This might be appreciated here.

w00t

Visited your site the other day. Guess I just missed this update.

First recording. Sounds like a mix of a positiv/drehorgel/fairground organ (no, I did not know the English word.
had to search for it.) and music to silent movie.

The second and more "abstract" part. I like the dynamics you get without using VCAs. Much more granular fx.
Makes it more "synthetic"...


Thanks. I'm still working on this patch. Already found a better way to modulate Just Friends.
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
You could patch the output of one S&H into the input of the next and get yourself a 12-step shift register. eek!

idea It's peanut butter jelly time!

Big AHA-moment!!! I made a 4-step shift register. I have 10 S/H, but making a 10-step shift register... Doepfer A-161 has 8 steps...

Variable speed on main trigger. 4-step shift register made with sample and hold modules. Looping envelopes with varying speed. The sample and hold shift register does not preserve pitch frequency very well.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/432930/

Two more tests...
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/432924/
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/432926/
pugix
Another one, with some patch explanation.

http://pugix.com/synth/automatic-music-july-21-2018/
gis_sweden
pugix wrote:
Another one, with some patch explanation.

Intriguing music. Film score like. Very nice sounds. applause But I almost wish I had a "clean" recording, without fx. It's hard to hear whats going on - inside the patch. Had to read about both just friends and stages and watch some demos. Well, I don't know the cola recipe but I enjoy the drink. hmmm.....

I patch popped up in my head. A synth voice conversation patch. I'm Probably inventing the wheel again, but I like when I think patching. Like learning a language. My little patch diagram fits in the soundcloud picture.
[s]http://soundcloud.com/gis_sweden/synth-voice-conversation-patch[/s]
For your convince here is the picture.

p.s. don't know what I do when ms paint and notepad disappears from windows... zombie
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
pugix wrote:
Another one, with some patch explanation.

Intriguing music. Film score like. Very nice sounds. applause But I almost wish I had a "clean" recording, without fx. It's hard to hear whats going on - inside the patch. Had to read about both just friends and stages and watch some demos. Well, I don't know the cola recipe but I enjoy the drink. hmmm.....

I patch popped up in my head. A synth voice conversation patch. I'm Probably inventing the wheel again, but I like when I think patching. Like learning a language. My little patch diagram fits in the soundcloud picture.
[s]http://soundcloud.com/gis_sweden/synth-voice-conversation-patch[/s]
For your convince here is the picture.

p.s. don't know what I do when ms paint and notepad disappears from windows... zombie


applause

Took me a while to ignore your diagram and trust my intuition. Om

...not that your notes are bad, I'm just rubbish at following them. screaming goo yo

And while I'm at it... STAGES! woah Two sample and holds and two cycling envelopes with EOC gates. Genius!
gis_sweden
Time for a new post in this thread. But I’m not sure if this is the right thread. Anyway, maybe my little patch and sound can inspire someone and give some ideas. Sounds from Barton Musical Circuits (BMC40) Dual Logic going though Doepfer A-101-1 Vactrol VCF. Dual Logic is modulated by Bartons (BMC17) 2LFOSH, via Bastl-instruments Tromsø. The VFC is also modulated by 2LFOSH. The other sound is from ALM Pip Slope in loop mode and modulated by a Nonlinearcircuits single Jerkoff, with an injection of cv from 2LFOSH.
Yep, I have been testing non-vcos as sound sources lately. Fun!
(I like 2LFOSH. 2 LFOs and a mix output. Audio rate switch. Sample and hold. Useful.)
The sound is in Instagram here: http://www.instagram.com/p/BmAeyN7nqLd/?taken-by=gis_sweden
franman69
Just a little contribution.. notes in the Soundcloud post.... Orgone and DPO driven by the usual suspects to make this Krellish noodle..

[s]https://soundcloud.com/franman69/accumulating-krellars[/s]
MindMachine
NLC Sloths V2. May have been mentioned, but needs more mention.

franman69 wrote:
Just a little contribution.. notes in the Soundcloud post.... Orgone and DPO driven by the usual suspects to make this Krellish noodle..

[s]https://soundcloud.com/franman69/accumulating-krellars[/s]


Very brassy and sweet. Guinness ftw!
astromass
wow...soooo much cool stuff in here. thanks everyone!!! YAY!
gis_sweden
Random clocked gates – in two ways…
Simple chance patch. For a while I had a Ladik R-110 that performed this function. But patching up the functionality is much more fun. You have control over the “probability”. First I tried my idea (I guess some of you have done this before. But it’s new to me.) in VCV-rack (pic. 1). Later I patched my modular but then I did it another way (pic. 2).
I have uploaded a sound on freesound.org where I use this technique. Two sounds with different probability to occur.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/438934/

and
gis_sweden
Quantussy cell time! w00t
4 cells used this time.
[s]https://soundcloud.com/gis_sweden/part-of-yesterday[/s]
pugix
gis_sweden wrote:
Quantussy cell time! w00t
4 cells used this time.
[s]https://soundcloud.com/gis_sweden/part-of-yesterday[/s]


Nice one! thumbs up

I just patched up 8 quantussy cells. I can muster up 16 sample & holds in the one case, if I use both Distings as dual S&H. Got two cycles of four cells, with one parameter on each being controlled by a signal from the other cycle. Quite a bit more work to do on this one.
gis_sweden
pugix wrote:
I just patched up 8 quantussy cells.
woah
8 cells!!! world record? I must hear - and see - this. Just the amount of stackables needed. I can do 5 then I run out of S/H's.

I just uploaded these.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/packs/25112/
They are selected parts from a longer recording. Still 4 cells. I think my favorite part is in "Electronic Minute No 168 - 38 to 46" at -5:25 to -5:03 (in the freesound time scale).
One voice though wave folder, one clean voice, two through ring mod (and on to lpg) and some sounds from jupiter storm (through vcf). Fast running vclfos create am-mod. #nowiggler.org During recording I was away from home buying food.
EDIT 181006:
Some Quantussy controlled space sounds
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/packs/25120/
pugix
gis_sweden wrote:
pugix wrote:
I just patched up 8 quantussy cells.
woah
8 cells!!! world record? I must hear - and see - this. Just the amount of stackables needed. I can do 5 then I run out of S/H's.


And that is two S&H per cell. Now, this is in only one case. I was thinking of adding the six Quantisise cells, for 14 total, in two cycles of seven. I've got plenty of banana to 3.5mm patch cords. We'll see.
gis_sweden
Made a search on "algorithmic". Via the comment "This thread has some great stuff in it. " I ended up here
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95917&.
The user wellurban shows a patch idea I had to try. The more repetitive sequence is made with a CVLFO.
Old school sound. Can't help liking that... Some small adjustments and the patch changes character.
[s]https://soundcloud.com/gis_sweden/2013-patch-thx-wellurban[/s]
gis_sweden
Me again!
Have you tried the "Chaos Patch" on http://www.doepfer.de/a100_man/a100_patch.htm?
The Logistic Equation.
Share your results!
Here is a simple recording. NO wiggling during recording.

https://soundcloud.com/gis_sweden/order-or-not-logistic-equation-patch
cptnal
Seriously - quit it! I'm trying to build a monster patch here and you keep distracting me with all this other cool shit I should try. angry

:sigh: Bookmarked.

hihi
Dcramer
Here’s an old recording I did of the Doepfer chaos patch, I didn’t have many modules back then and really had to scramble to get this to work!

[s]https://soundcloud.com/dcramer/controlled-chaos-rby-dcramer[/s]
Fastus
franman69 wrote:
Just a little contribution.. notes in the Soundcloud post.... Orgone and DPO driven by the usual suspects to make this Krellish noodle..

[s]https://soundcloud.com/franman69/accumulating-krellars[/s]


Late to the party, but this is excellent!
gis_sweden
Dcramer wrote:
Here’s an old recording I did of the Doepfer chaos patch...

applause
I came across that track during my digging in the muffwiggler archives...

Is there a way to confirm that you actually have made a correct "Chaos Patch"?
Or. It's a live = It works.
My patch is alive. The same patch has been running since my last post.
Why is it alive? Is it the imperfections of the electronics that are
amplified? help
I use an A-101-2 LPG as one of the VCAs. In pure LPG mode it does not work...
I don't use a wave shaper as in the Doepfer picture. I use a Befaco dual atenuverter.
("Atenuverter"... It's printed on the panel. I might be wrong, but shouldn't there be 2 "t"?)
I use the other half of the "atenuverter" as voltage inverter.
The 2nd VCA should be feed with "Chaos CV". First I made a feed back loop from "Chaos Out".
Now I feed it with a fixed CV from an ALM dual attenuverter. Works fine.
And as said it's alive This is fun!
https://soundcloud.com/gis_sweden/electronic-minute-no-177-chaos-patch -with-unheavy-beat

EDIT:
Some hours later… When I’m talking about VCA 1 and VCA 2 I’m referring to the picture on the
Doepfer site (link above). Reading from left to right.

As written. Instead of a wave shaper I use an attenuater. As VCA 2 I use MFB VCA. I noticed that
I did not need to add any “Chaos CV”. This VCA is just a calculator. Maybe A-130 needs cv to operate?
So… Maybe you could use a mixer here???

One reason my patch is alive is this. I found that resonance on A-101-2 (my VCA 1) turned up. lol
Cheating, but smart. Without resonance it was harder to get an unstable sequence going. I like it unstable.

Above I wrote that the patch does not work in pure LPG mode. Not 100% true…

Now I have learnt that size matters. The more inputs, outputs and attenuaters a module have the better.
Standing in the shower I thought that the modules involved in the “Chaos Patch” plus a VCO, mixer and
a VCF is a good start up set. Change the wave shaper for an attenuverter.

EDIT II:
Hmmmm
If the patch works right then you should initially, with low value on “k”, have one value on ”cv” (“chaos out”).
As you increase “k” to above 3 you should get more and more different values.

I can't try my thoughts this evening cry
gis_sweden
Okay, I'm home again. Sorry for hijacking this thread... meh
This is what the logistic equation sounds like when altering
the value on "k" (in the Doepfer example). Usually you call the variable "r".
I'm not an expert... Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As you probably know there is a module for this too.
Klangbau Logistic Equation Eurorack Demo (Logistische Gleichung)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMozPzJxBxk

I think I can say that the "Chaos Patch" works!
https://soundcloud.com/gis_sweden/what-the-logistic-equation-sounds-li ke

Between order and chaos you find your pattern.
cptnal
Thanks for the pointers, guys. Reckon I've cracked it on the second attempt. At least it's something on the patterny side of random. SlayerBadger!
cptnal
Update:

I've spent some time with this patch, including taking it down and repatching with different modules a few times, and I've sketched out in MG what I think is the most graceful way of doing it (at least with the modules I have). When you look at it this way the equation makes a lot of sense. A constant (k) is multiplied by a value (X) minus the square of that same value to give the next (n) value.

In my version, since I don't have an A136, I've used a uFold, which has the advantage of being able to add k through the symmetry control. Or maybe I'm completely wrong. Who cares, I'm having fun. This is fun!



Edit: Reckon I can get k from channel 4 of Blinds if I remove the output of channel 2, which is summed anyway. hmmm.....

Edit Edit: No, that would add, not multiply.... hmmm..... hmmm..... Work continues!
cptnal
OK, one more and I'm done. Pinky promise. Mr. Green

This time the maths (with a small m) checks out. I'm guessing the waveshaper is in there to give some randomness to the next value of X. If you can see any flaws please point them out. thumbs up

joesdeals
Sloths module.
Dcramer
gis_sweden wrote:
Dcramer wrote:
Here’s an old recording I did of the Doepfer chaos patch...

applause
I came across that track during my digging in the muffwiggler archives...

Is there a way to confirm that you actually have made a correct "Chaos Patch"?
Or. It's a live = It works.
My patch is alive. The same patch has been running since my last post.
Why is it alive? Is it the imperfections of the electronics that are
amplified? help
I use an A-101-2 LPG as one of the VCAs. In pure LPG mode it does not work...
I don't use a wave shaper as in the Doepfer picture. I use a Befaco dual atenuverter.
("Atenuverter"... It's printed on the panel. I might be wrong, but shouldn't there be 2 "t"?)
I use the other half of the "atenuverter" as voltage inverter.
The 2nd VCA should be feed with "Chaos CV". First I made a feed back loop from "Chaos Out".
Now I feed it with a fixed CV from an ALM dual attenuverter. Works fine.
And as said it's alive This is fun!
https://soundcloud.com/gis_sweden/electronic-minute-no-177-chaos-patch -with-unheavy-beat

EDIT:
Some hours later… When I’m talking about VCA 1 and VCA 2 I’m referring to the picture on the
Doepfer site (link above). Reading from left to right.

As written. Instead of a wave shaper I use an attenuater. As VCA 2 I use MFB VCA. I noticed that
I did not need to add any “Chaos CV”. This VCA is just a calculator. Maybe A-130 needs cv to operate?
So… Maybe you could use a mixer here???

One reason my patch is alive is this. I found that resonance on A-101-2 (my VCA 1) turned up. lol
Cheating, but smart. Without resonance it was harder to get an unstable sequence going. I like it unstable.

Above I wrote that the patch does not work in pure LPG mode. Not 100% true…

Now I have learnt that size matters. The more inputs, outputs and attenuaters a module have the better.
Standing in the shower I thought that the modules involved in the “Chaos Patch” plus a VCO, mixer and
a VCF is a good start up set. Change the wave shaper for an attenuverter.

EDIT II:
Hmmmm
If the patch works right then you should initially, with low value on “k”, have one value on ”cv” (“chaos out”).
As you increase “k” to above 3 you should get more and more different values.

I can't try my thoughts this evening cry


I recall that when I first tried to build this little patch, it took some doing until it came to life. I remember having to use some little trick to get enough amplitude. But once I got it in the zone it jumped to life and started playing thumbs up
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
OK, one more and I'm done. Pinky promise. Mr. Green

I think Blinds might be the problem. It’s not a real VCA. It acts like a VCA. I think you need a VCA with 2 inputs. A mixer does not work as substitute.
You don’t need the wave shaper. The wave shaper in the Doepfer picture was used to amplify the signal. Must add that I’m not familiar with Blind.
As said, I used MFB VCA it has 2 inputs, like A-130. It was easier to control the patch via the VCA. In my patch the Befaco attenuverter added “k”,
not a wave shaper. And I suspect there is a difference between uFold and A-136. A-136 is a distortion module. Maybe it amplifies the signal.
A real wave folder, as uFold, might not. Measure? It must add up to +4V. I tried to use NLC Timbre… That was a cul de sac.
But… VCAs and ring modulators can multiply two values. hmmm.....
Upload result when It's peanut butter jelly time!

:: EDIT :: or P.S. ::
Can Disting act as a VCA with 2 inputs??
cptnal
Thanks for the insights, gis_sweden thumbs up

I have an A132-1 which I could try bringing to the party. No attenuators, but a proper 2-input VCA.

Meanwhile I've been fooling with that equation in a little C# loop (as in the programming language, not the musical note). Maybe I need to do some more reading around the subject, but the system always seems to stabilize on the same value after about 8 iterations. Perhaps the wave shaper does something to get around that, or perhaps I just need to spend more time on it... This is fun!

P.S. A quick check of the Disting manual suggests no dice for that idea. waah
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
I have an A132-1 which I could try bringing to the party.

A-132-1 has 2 cv in, not 2 signal in seriously, i just don't get it
Would be interesting to try a ring modulator instead of a VCA. #speculating
Disting can act as a ring modulator? Don't know if it works!!!!

Good luck with the programming! thumbs up Give us a nice graph!
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
cptnal wrote:
I have an A132-1 which I could try bringing to the party.

A-132-1 has 2 cv in, not 2 signal in seriously, i just don't get it
Would be interesting to try a ring modulator instead of a VCA. #speculating
Disting can act as a ring modulator? Don't know if it works!!!!

Good luck with the programming! thumbs up Give us a nice graph!


d'oh!

Thanks for the encouragement, but I fear you overestimate my programming skills. hihi
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Thanks for the encouragement, but...

This is not what I should have spent time on... lol
I - think - I managed to demonstrate the behavior of the equation with Excel.
I really should not spend time on trying to do this in Python... Absolutely no graph anyway eek!
Nice text https://hypertextbook.com/chaos/logistic/
cptnal
Me neither, but here's mine anyway (with annotations). lol

I'm going to get the voltmeter on this because the values are quite specific. It'll also confirm whether my VCAs are multiplying, adding, subtracting as expected. If anything this exercise confirms to me that, yeah - the wave shaper isn't doing much, or at least isn't necessary for the pure representation of the equation.

gis_sweden
Interesting. Maybe you have to wait with this patch until you have an A-130 or similar. seriously, i just don't get it
I have jumped to the next patch problem.. Guinness ftw!
Another patch on the Doepfer site.
OLD thread!
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=67201
Lets call this thread Lasarus...
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
Interesting. Maybe you have to wait with this patch until you have an A-130 or similar. seriously, i just don't get it


Nope, I've cracked it, but let me tell you the system needs some calibrating!

My thinking at the moment is that I'd rather invest in the Klangbau module. I've used 2 Distings in multiplier mode, and a Tangle Quartet for the adding, and at each stage of patching up I measured against a reference voltage from my new T43 ( thumbs up ) to make sure the calculations were correct.

And you're right - no wave shaper required. But the problem is injecting a starting voltage. I did this by multing in an offset which I pulled as soon as the system got going.

In conclusion, you could get the same result by other (easier) means, but it's been a fun experiment. I learned some stuff, for instance my VCAs are crap at multiplication.

Like you I'm off to pastures new. I fancy having a go at Markov chains. Have fun with your toggling. Let's meet back here and compare results. Guinness ftw!
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Nope, I've cracked it...
thumbs up
Once you get the ”chaos patch” working you can select how much chaos you want. I think the Klangbau video demonstrates this well.
Have never head of the T43… There are so many modules.
I made some measurements yesterday. Now I’m totally confused. Tested for instance multiplying... Calls for some more research.
The toggling works fine but is that all? I’m not impressed.
Good luck with Markov (have no idea what that is?).
cptnal
A Markov chain describes the possibilities of moving from one "state" to another. Easier to describe with a picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_chain

At this point I'm trying to decide what a "state" should be. Should it be whether a VCA is open or closed, or a series of VCAs?

A=OOO, B=OOC, C=OCC, etc.

The temptation is to use Branches for probability, but I'd prefer something generic. Maybe S&H + comparator... hmmm.....

I'd agree that the toggling thing doesn't look very interesting. Maybe the best you could get out of it is a hocketing effect?
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
A Markov chain describes the possibilities of moving from one "state" to another.

Interesting problem!
It's a big difference between
1) 20% chance playing a low note and 80% chance playing a high note.
2) 20% chance staying in "state" A and 80% chance moving to "state" B.

Both "states" must be able to "take command". hmmm.....
cptnal
Indeed. Although I'm not physically at my rack at the moment, my head is, and it's thinking along the lines of Branches/comparator into switch, output of switch into its own trigger... That's as far as I've got. screaming goo yo
cptnal
OK, here's the theory...

While the switch is in position 1, there's a 30% chance of it moving to position 2 (and by extension, a 70% chance of staying put)

While the switch is in position 2, there's 50% chance of it moving to position 1

So, how to control the "state" while both channels are merrily doing their own thing at the same time. Logic! Multing each Branch to a channel of the A166, along with the output of the switch, means that each state will only be high while it has the switch. (I should say we'll be using Branches in gate mode here.)

Assuming this is functional I can see two potential flaws. It's not very scalable (you'd have to add more modules), and it's only binary. Adding a third state (once you had the extra modules), it would only go ABCABCABC. So no moving between A and C for instance.

Pelsea
That's the problem with Markov chains- the probability array must be square. They are easy to build (think high speed sequencer with random clocking and a sample and hold) but a 10 state machine would need 100 pots.

On the other hand, a microprocessor based device only needs a dozen lines of code.

If you really want to get complex, try a 3rd order Markov- that's the likelyhood of getting a third result given two inputs.
cptnal
OK, here's one way of doing it. There may be a more graceful way, but seems to produce the desired result. Kinda hard to quantify the output of probability. hmmm.....

And thanks, Pelsea for getting me thinking about sequencers (although I'm still not sure what you mean with your idea). In the screenshot below the three outputs of Pressure Points will give you whatever "state" you like.

I may have a look at the third order thing - we learn more from our failures than from our successes after all. Mr. Green

Pelsea
It's easy to get a probability distribution with a sequencer- here's an excerpt from my (almost here) book:

If a two output sequencer is patched so row two controls its clock, it will also control the probability of an S&H grabbing the associated row one voltage.



This chart shows how the probability trick works. Basically, the sequencer (running faster than the S&H clock) generates a stepped waveform with steps of various widths. Since the S&H samples a random point in this waveform, the wider the step, the more likely that voltage will be grabbed.



One thing to watch for is the second row is setting the rate of the clock, not the period, so turning a knob in row two up reduces the probability of getting the associated voltage from row one. An invert + offset will make that more elegant. (I don't know why I mentioned random clock in my previous post, it's not needed here-- bad dyslexia day).

The tricky bit about turning this into a Markov engine is switching the probability settings in row two. Since I do all of this in Max/MSP and don't own any current sequencers, I haven't tried a hardware-only solution. Just by looking over modular grid, I don't see any easy solutions there either. You'd need several synced sequencers (N+1 rows) and a voltage driven sequential switch, which doesn't seem to exist; or a memory based sequencer that had voltage selectable presets.

A Markov pattern generator would be an easy (if knob intensive) device to build, but I couldn't imagine getting one into a eurorack.
cptnal
Markov or not this is a very nice trick! I have a new toy for a few days. Guinness ftw!
dooj88
i don't recall exactly what's going on here, as it was over a few nights with some beers and increasingly denser feedback paths, but basically the clock + turing machine are self modulating through a criss-cross network of dividers, probability skippers and random triggers.

the URA is sending a lot of data around, but the self resonating filters and Spectrum are in an FM feedback path, through some LPGs, and those are the main voices. the envelopes are also all modulating each other and themselves with the help of blinds. braids was the only overtly digital module used, but i'm not able to pick it out so i don't think it counts. (i think contour is digital as well?)

well anyway, it was fun listening to this thing spit out random tidbits of tone and percussion, from funny blips to hyper-spastic freakouts (see 1:55 - 2:20ish for one of those).

dooj88
Pelsea wrote:
It's easy to get a probability distribution with a sequencer- here's an excerpt from my (almost here) book:



woah, i didn't see you were writing a book, that's fantastic! what are you focusing on?
cptnal
In case Pelsea is too modest (or indeed doing something else right now)…

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=204583&start=62
cptnal
dooj88 wrote:
i don't recall exactly what's going on here, as it was over a few nights with some beers and increasingly denser feedback paths, but basically the clock + turing machine are self modulating through a criss-cross network of dividers, probability skippers and random triggers.

the URA is sending a lot of data around, but the self resonating filters and Spectrum are in an FM feedback path, through some LPGs, and those are the main voices. the envelopes are also all modulating each other and themselves with the help of blinds. braids was the only overtly digital module used, but i'm not able to pick it out so i don't think it counts. (i think contour is digital as well?)

well anyway, it was fun listening to this thing spit out random tidbits of tone and percussion, from funny blips to hyper-spastic freakouts.



applause

I love it when a patch takes on a life of its own and you never know what it's going to do next.
dooj88
cptnal, yeah these are always great, so full of life.

thanks, i hadn't seen that thread. ordered that with no hesitation. very much looking forward to reading it Pelsea!!
windchill
I finally got round to patching up the Logistic Equation. It required 4 VCAs, because I needed 2 just to get the 4X amplification required.
At first I couldn't get it to work but I realised it needs a kick, a twist of the knob controlling the input CV (k), to get it going.
It's very sensitive to the value of k but it really does seem to create an output signal that is different, more musical, than a pure random signal. I happily concede that this might just be confirmation bias on my part and perhaps I'm imagining something that simply isn't there.
Here's one of the results. The output of the logistic equation is being quantised to a minor pentatonic scale and then routed into an Intellijel Shifty to create a three part canon.

JakoGreyshire
It's not a eurorack module but I think the Korg SQ-1 can do this... I'll have some fun trying it out anyway... Thanks!

Pelsea wrote:
It's easy to get a probability distribution with a sequencer- here's an excerpt from my (almost here) book:

If a two output sequencer is patched so row two controls its clock, it will also control the probability of an S&H grabbing the associated row one voltage.



This chart shows how the probability trick works. Basically, the sequencer (running faster than the S&H clock) generates a stepped waveform with steps of various widths. Since the S&H samples a random point in this waveform, the wider the step, the more likely that voltage will be grabbed.



One thing to watch for is the second row is setting the rate of the clock, not the period, so turning a knob in row two up reduces the probability of getting the associated voltage from row one. An invert + offset will make that more elegant. (I don't know why I mentioned random clock in my previous post, it's not needed here-- bad dyslexia day).

The tricky bit about turning this into a Markov engine is switching the probability settings in row two. Since I do all of this in Max/MSP and don't own any current sequencers, I haven't tried a hardware-only solution. Just by looking over modular grid, I don't see any easy solutions there either. You'd need several synced sequencers (N+1 rows) and a voltage driven sequential switch, which doesn't seem to exist; or a memory based sequencer that had voltage selectable presets.

A Markov pattern generator would be an easy (if knob intensive) device to build, but I couldn't imagine getting one into a eurorack.
cptnal
windchill wrote:
I finally got round to patching up the Logistic Equation. It required 4 VCAs, because I needed 2 just to get the 4X amplification required.
At first I couldn't get it to work but I realised it needs a kick, a twist of the knob controlling the input CV (k), to get it going.
It's very sensitive to the value of k but it really does seem to create an output signal that is different, more musical, than a pure random signal. I happily concede that this might just be confirmation bias on my part and perhaps I'm imagining something that simply isn't there.
Here's one of the results. The output of the logistic equation is being quantised to a minor pentatonic scale and then routed into an Intellijel Shifty to create a three part canon.



Nice tune! (And nice knobs on the SISM Miley Cyrus )

I see your scope there. Did you check that your VCAs were doing their calculations properly? When I checked mine they weren't very accurate. Ended up using a couple of Distings in 4 quadrant multiplier mode.
windchill
cptnal wrote:


I see your scope there. Did you check that your VCAs were doing their calculations properly? When I checked mine they weren't very accurate. Ended up using a couple of Distings in 4 quadrant multiplier mode.


I did check while I was putting the patch together. I used Intellijel µVCAs throughout, which seemed to be doing a pretty good job.
I must confess though that once the patch started coming together I stopped caring too much about accuracy and just went with the flow. I therefore accept that it may not be a very accurate Logistic Equation at all. It does sound like a pretty chaotic output though, with little sections where it repeats before going all random again, so something along the right lines is happening.

Maybe I'll give it a more serious analysis in the near future.

At the end of the day I'll always take musical results above technical accuracy hihi
cptnal
windchill wrote:
At the end of the day I'll always take musical results above technical accuracy hihi


Oh, yes indeedy. The reason I ask is that I couldn't get it to behave as expected until I'd made sure it was doing the calculations correctly. I think I abandoned VCAs because they took a lot of tweaking to get just-so, but with the 4 quadrant multiplier you just plug X into it twice and get X squared out (and -X squared, which is more useful).
windchill
cptnal wrote:
windchill wrote:
At the end of the day I'll always take musical results above technical accuracy hihi


Oh, yes indeedy. The reason I ask is that I couldn't get it to behave as expected until I'd made sure it was doing the calculations correctly. I think I abandoned VCAs because they took a lot of tweaking to get just-so, but with the 4 quadrant multiplier you just plug X into it twice and get X squared out (and -X squared, which is more useful).


I have a Disting so I'll try using that instead of a VCA for squaring X.
BenA718
While reading this thread I have enjoyed trying to keep my head above the computational waters (and failing) but compared to my patches, the ones mentioned and demonstrated here remind me of two movie scenes:

The scene in Better Off Dead when Lane finds out his girlfriend got a giant teddy bear from Roy whilst looking down at the tiny teddy bear he bought.

The scene in Jaws when Hooper and Quint are bragging about their shark encounter scars and Chief Brody looks at his Appendicitis scar.

Keep it up!!! grin
cptnal
BenA718 wrote:
While reading this thread I have enjoyed trying to keep my head above the computational waters (and failing)...


That's what I thought initially. The best solution is to dive in and try it!

There's literally no smoke and mirrors here. The four quadrant multiplier, for instance. You put in 0.5V into one input, 0.5V into another and you get 0.25V out - exactly what it says on the tin.

I'm currently wrestling with quantussy cells, as described by Pugix above, and I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what's going on. But I keep tearing the patch down and putting it back together again, and I'll work it out... Eventually. This is fun!
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
quantussy cells

Any luck yet? This patch is the Queen of generative patches.
Do you have VCV-Rack?
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
cptnal wrote:
quantussy cells

Any luck yet? This patch is the Queen of generative patches.
Do you have VCV-Rack?


Well, I was getting some nice modulation effects when I chained three together, but with all the ins and outs I couldn't really follow what was going on. So I've stripped it back to one cell, and I'm getting some nice, controllable quasi-random from one self-modulating S&H, but I'm still at a loss as to what the castle's supposed to do in this situation (if anything - are they only of use once you start chaining? hmmm..... ).

I'm also struggling to map what I'm hearing to the Cocoquantus as I understand it (which is how it was demonstrated on Hainbach's YouTube channel). There all the cells seem to share one master LFO with a stepping switch for each, whereas this version has an independent one per cell. And audio rate... seriously, i just don't get it

Anyway, still some work to do, but the journey is yielding some interesting results. And the journey's always more interesting than getting there. thumbs up

I've seen VCV Rack, and it looks pretty funky, but I'm unlikely to ever start using it. I got into hardware to get away from computers. And there's something about being able to just throw in modules on a whim that goes against the grain for me. Some may call it "cheating", but I'm always loathe to use the 'C' word. eek!
NiteEagle
gis_sweden wrote:

Do you have VCV-Rack?


Do you have a VCV-Rack patch for this that you would share?
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
I've seen VCV Rack, and it looks pretty funky...

I try to avoid computers to. I have VCV-Rack at work (don't tell anyone). Have to say it's great, and works very well! You can easily try thing out, like quantussy cells... Big help! Computer or not...

NiteEagle wrote:
Do you have a VCV-Rack patch for this that you would share?

I have a quantussy cell patch on VCV-Rack. A basic patch with just the cells and only one of them making noise.

@cptnal I can send you a screen dump of VCV-Rack (tomorrow, I'm not at work) Maybe you prefer to try yourself, "the journey's always more interesting"?
@NiteEagle I can send you a link (now, I have prepared one)
.
.
.
@captnal I can send you a link to - if you change your mind about VCV-Rack.
gis_sweden
Having fun without computer w00t
Sounds that just happen. meh
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/447940/
Pelsea
cptnal wrote:

Well, I was getting some nice modulation effects when I chained three together, but with all the ins and outs I couldn't really follow what was going on. So I've stripped it back to one cell, and I'm getting some nice, controllable quasi-random from one self-modulating S&H, but I'm still at a loss as to what the castle's supposed to do in this situation (if anything - are they only of use once you start chaining? hmmm..... ).


Quantussy is all about the chaining. I've been trying to work this out myself, which I often do by redrawing other people's patches. I guess that makes me focus more carefully. Anyway, here's my concept of what is going on.

The Cell:



I've rearranged this slightly from Pugix's version, just to clarify the chain connection, which looks like this:


From this it becomes clear what the castles are about. Consider cell B. When it completes its cycle, it grabs a new frequency value from castle A, which at some previous point had grabbed a voltage from the output of cell C.

So far I prefer the castle outputs as the main driver of my patch, triggering notes off the LFO pulse.
cptnal
What do you think of the idea of a communal clock cf. independent ones? I don't know whether I'm misunderstanding how the Cocoquantus works, or if it's just more flexible. I've yet to try it myself because some French dude just dropped a harmonic oscillator on my lap. w00t

Your description of the castle's role makes a lot of sense. I'll get back into this very shortly. It's like a new module - you just have to spend time with it until you get the feel of it under your fingers.

I love the Electronic Minutes, gis_sweden. Nice concept, nice sounds. Bookmarked! And yes please to links and screens. Journeys can have shortcuts. Miley Cyrus
pugix
Pelsea wrote:
cptnal wrote:

Well, I was getting some nice modulation effects when I chained three together, but with all the ins and outs I couldn't really follow what was going on. So I've stripped it back to one cell, and I'm getting some nice, controllable quasi-random from one self-modulating S&H, but I'm still at a loss as to what the castle's supposed to do in this situation (if anything - are they only of use once you start chaining? hmmm..... ).


Quantussy is all about the chaining. I've been trying to work this out myself, which I often do by redrawing other people's patches. I guess that makes me focus more carefully. Anyway, here's my concept of what is going on.

The Cell:



I've rearranged this slightly from Pugix's version, just to clarify the chain connection, which looks like this:


From this it becomes clear what the castles are about. Consider cell B. When it completes its cycle, it grabs a new frequency value from castle A, which at some previous point had grabbed a voltage from the output of cell C.

So far I prefer the castle outputs as the main driver of my patch, triggering notes off the LFO pulse.


You've got it exactly right! When building these with separate modules, you can get the pulse out (usually a separate square wave output from the LFO). The LFOs can be triangle or any kind of ramp wave. You can also use a cycling VC EG with and End pulse. You'll get different patterns using different wave forms. The results are also different if the LFO is unipolar or bipolar.

The Cocoquantus Quantussy lets you build different topologies by using the cluster input nodes. Each 'cell' has a four way, two pole switch that chooses which other cell is the source for the CV input and for the Castle input. Plus, each cell contains an internal VCA for the modulation depth, and these VCAs are all controlled together with the Chaos knob. A modular realization will usually have an attenuator on each CV input, instead of a VCA.

The most complex cycles are achieved with the most number of cells in the cycle. Even and odd numbers of cell produce different results. I have a Eurorack patch with eight cells in one loop. I'll be posting that patch and some recordings made with it.

My Quantisise consists of six cells, each including a VCA. They have to be patched together. The pulses that trigger the S&Hs are internal, so not available for patching. Built as they are on CGS Serge SSG boards, I was able to add a feature where by a manual switch each S&H can be triggered once or two times per cycle. That is, on the positive and negative edge of the pulse or just on the negative. If not triggered (switch center off), my S&Hs simply follow the input (like a hold/follow S&H). I built so many options that I'll never run out of different ways to patch it.
gis_sweden
pugix wrote:
You can also use a cycling VC EG with and End pulse.

When I build my 5 cells I use one VC EG, MN Function. I don’t have 5 VC LFOs. That Function module is the most difficult building block to control. Function have this “Both CV Input”. That’s nice, but still hard to control. An attenuater before Function is important imo. Usually I make the output bipolar with offset voltage. But then you only get +/- 4V (I believe…). Good to know.
Stackables are BIG help.
cptnal
Alright! Getting somewhere now (thanks, gis_sweden).

I've found it's easier to follow with faster LFO rates. The patterns reveal themselves more clearly. It does sound like layers of things happening. It's also useful having attenuators in the FM loop, so you can start with a static tempo and dial in the weirdness.

Guinness ftw!
gis_sweden
All this talk about quantussy cells made me patch up a 5 x quantyssy cell engine.
5 quantussy cells controlling 2 oscillators, 1 wave folder, 1 filter and 1 drum module (BMC Analog Drum). Even the pitch of the drum is controlled by one of the quantussy cells. The drum sound to fed to the feedback in on Doepfer A-199 spring reverb.
A recording: https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/448050/
Here is a picture of my "quantussy corner" today. Big part of my modular...

No, I do no have super cool studio monitors... lol
windchill
Quantussy cells sound very interesting but I only have 4 Sample and Holds, 2 of which would need to come from my Disting which I normally need for other purposes.
I certainly don't have 10!
I could buy more of course, but I've pretty much stopped buying modules, unless it's on a one-in-one-out basis.
As a result Quantussy cells remain merely a point of interest rather than something I can explore.

Like cptnal I prefer to work with hardware these days, with all the limitations that entails, so although I have VCV-Rack, Reaktor, etc, I can't see myself setting up a bunch of Quantussies in the near future.

(I'm aware that you can in theory leave out one of the S&Hs but I still seem to lack the resources required to explore the idea.)
cptnal
So here's a snippet...

[s]http://soundcloud.com/cptnal/q001b[/s]

3 cells, two voices. Around half way I bring down the pitch attenuation on each voice in turn until only the rhythms remain. No other manual wiggling.

It seems there's a playoff. At faster speeds more than two voices sounds too busy to appreciate what's going on (or maybe I should opt for plainer voices... hmmm..... ). At slower speeds the space can accommodate more voices, but the patterns are less apparent.

And FWIW, windchill, I'm using Stages to give me six sample & holds. Really a bang-for-the-buck module. One for the shopping list perhaps. thumbs up
windchill
cptnal wrote:

And FWIW, windchill, I'm using Stages to give me six sample & holds. Really a bang-for-the-buck module. One for the shopping list perhaps. thumbs up


Damn you cptnal! It's hard enough as it is without being encouraged. I'm now reading the manual for Stages. This is a dangerous thing for me to be doing. hihi
gis_sweden
windchill wrote:
Quantussy cells sound very interesting but I only have 4 Sample and Holds...

So don't do quantussy. There's a lot of patches you can't do. And you can't read all books, see all movies etc. Still w00t

cptnal wrote:
So here's a snippet...

Yeah! So interesting. I didn't know it was legal to wiggle during a quantussy recording session! eek! Nice sounds. So different from how I sound! There are many tradeoffs in generative music. The one I'm struggling with is this. To much random doesnt sound like music. The human brain needs some sort off pattern to climb on to. If you do it right. Quantussy cells creates series of "songs". One cell plays some sort of repetitive pattern while other cells are bleeping blooping and droning... Very nice to hear some sounds from you. I like the title. The title implies - more to come.

I just recorded a 1h quantussy session, while cooking some food. Same sounds as in the previous track plus one more sound/noise. I have not listened to the sound nor have I seen it in Audacity. help Can you please give me a 3 minute long time span I shall cut out and save. Less human involvement to the machine composed music!
The first time span I get I use.
[Electronic Minute No 190 - Dont blame me blame 'username']
windchill
gis_sweden wrote:

So don't do quantussy. There's a lot of patches you can't do. And you can't read all books, see all movies etc. Still w00t


I didn't mean to sound negative. My post was poorly worded. I was sort of hoping someone might respond with "you can still do interesting stuff with only two Quantussy cells" or "here's a way to get similar results by clever use of..." or "do you have a XXX module because you could....", etc. As it turns out the suggestion from cptnal that I look into Stages was very useful because not only will it give me 6 S&Hs but it does a lot of other stuff too - which means I can possibly stick to my one-module-in-one-out policy and yet still end up with enough S&Hs to get some serious Quantussy action going.
gis_sweden
windchill wrote:
it give me 6 S&Hs

There you go w00t
Modular life! There is always a solution. I have more "traditional" functions in my synth. One function one module. Not 100% true but anyway. I believe modulation is the blood in a modular synth. I have a lot of blood (but still my modular music sucks...) meh Whatever it's fun! My goal is not 10000hp of modular.
windchill
Ha Ha! I'm an idiot! I've just found another 4 Sample & Holds in my rack. Not dedicated modules but as part of others (I won't name them all because the full extent of my idiocy would be revealed, but one is my Make Noise Function with a wide clock into the hang input). Sometimes I get so used to using modules in a certain way that I forget they have other capabilities.

Some of these S&Hs may be awkward to use in this context but I certainly have enough for 3 Quantussy cells.
pedalhead
windchill wrote:
Ha Ha! I'm an idiot! I've just found another 4 Sample & Holds in my rack. Not dedicated modules but as part of others (I won't name them all because the full extent of my idiocy would be revealed, but one is my Make Noise Function with a wide clock into the hang input). Sometimes I get so used to using modules in a certain way that I forget they have other capabilities.

Some of these S&Hs may be awkward to use in this context but I certainly have enough for 3 Quantussy cells.



cough..Maths?
pugix
pedalhead wrote:
windchill wrote:
Ha Ha! I'm an idiot! I've just found another 4 Sample & Holds in my rack. Not dedicated modules but as part of others (I won't name them all because the full extent of my idiocy would be revealed, but one is my Make Noise Function with a wide clock into the hang input). Sometimes I get so used to using modules in a certain way that I forget they have other capabilities.

Some of these S&Hs may be awkward to use in this context but I certainly have enough for 3 Quantussy cells.



cough..Maths?


Maths lacks the Hang input that Function has. You might be able to get S&H from Maths by putting a pulse into the CV inputs with the rates set for slowest time (hold) and the pulse making it very fast for a few milliseconds (sample).
pugix
Stages and a pair of 2hp Dual S&H will get you 10 sample & holds. Enough for five quantussy cells.
cptnal
In a break from following a pre-existing cookbook, here's a little system I cooked up myself. I believe it qualifies as generative in that it makes lots of unexpected twists and turns which are a result of the internals of the patch, and limited ingredients.

The stock is a feedback loop between a 4MS PEG, RCD, and SCM. EOR from PEG clocks the RCD, the 6th division of the RCD clocks the SCM, and the S5 out from the SCM pings the PEG. Because the S5 output is uneven there's a lot of jumping around. I'll call this the "system" after a comment pelsea made in another thread, "the system defines the piece."

Other than a Wogglebug (clocked by the system) modulating a filter and a phaser, everything is driven by the system. The sequence is gates from the RCD combined in a mixer, through a quantizer, and off to the oscillator (Telharmonic). A Chronoblob is both synched, and periodically held by gates from the system, and BIA providing a bass note is also modulated purely by gates from the system.

It has a nice bluesy feeling to these ears, which is accidental. The quantizer is just an A166 in major scale mode. I guess the levels of the four gates plus root from BIA gave me just the right pentatonic scale.

I think I'm beginning to get the hang of this. Mr. Green

[s]http://soundcloud.com/cptnal/blue-system[/s]
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
In a break from following a pre-existing cookbook

Coming up with your own recipes are great! Also, nice to see how you use modules I don’t have.

Feedback is important. Without feedback a generative patch might feel like random parts just playing at the same time. With feedback you get a wholeness. Just random bleeps are not that interesting, but if you feel that they interact in some way, suddenly you have something interesting.
But what is generative music/autonomous instruments/machine composition….? Maybe we should avoid that subject and just be happy.

I have tried to create a quantussy patch that have a bass/rhythmic part that defines generated tracks. Yes, I want to have some structure. It’s a sound that gets a new pitch and speed when the quantussy cell before it has finished a cycle. In the beginning of every cycle you will hear a high-hat sound. The recording consists of 24 short tracks. All tracks start with a high-hat sound. Listen at your own risk.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/448316/

I have some ideas how to develop this idea. I know when a new track starts (according to my definition…). That trigger could also set filter cv and wave shaper cv etc. In that way the tracks could get their own character. Don’t know if this makes sense to anyone? Maybe experiments of this short should be kept private, hidden, unknown to the world outside my laboratory… zombie
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
cptnal wrote:
In a break from following a pre-existing cookbook

Coming up with your own recipes are great! Also, nice to see how you use modules I don’t have.

Feedback is important. Without feedback a generative patch might feel like random parts just playing at the same time. With feedback you get a wholeness. Just random bleeps are not that interesting, but if you feel that they interact in some way, suddenly you have something interesting.
But what is generative music/autonomous instruments/machine composition….? Maybe we should avoid that subject and just be happy.

I have tried to create a quantussy patch that have a bass/rhythmic part that defines generated tracks. Yes, I want to have some structure. It’s a sound that gets a new pitch and speed when the quantussy cell before it has finished a cycle. In the beginning of every cycle you will hear a high-hat sound. The recording consists of 24 short tracks. All tracks start with a high-hat sound. Listen at your own risk.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/448316/

I have some ideas how to develop this idea. I know when a new track starts (according to my definition…). That trigger could also set filter cv and wave shaper cv etc. In that way the tracks could get their own character. Don’t know if this makes sense to anyone? Maybe experiments of this short should be kept private, hidden, unknown to the world outside my laboratory… zombie


applause

Whilst it's not exactly the Diabelli Variations, I can see where you're going with this. Some ideas that have crossed my mind...

Quantize, then use processing scales a la dcramer's Exodus patch
Clock Pressure Points to get three different variable CVs per clock (although only for a maximum of four counts)
Use sample and holds to get random CV at each clock (oh, wait - Quantussy patch. You probably don't have any left Dead Banana )

...really you could get your CV from a number of sources, but I think the real question is, in a patch with so much internal variety how do hold some of that back in order to present it as some kind of development. Using hats to punctuate sections is a great idea. There's a Reich piece that does similar (Can't remember which - 18 Musicians?) and Pärt's Tabula Rasa too, using prepared piano.
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Use sample and holds to get random CV at each clock (oh, wait - Quantussy patch. You probably don't have any left Dead Banana )

Right about that! But this is a modular! I have an A-156 QNT. I can tune in pitch on sequencer and sample that. Yes, and the square wave trick ect.

For this patch I used one fixed tone as bass then 2 voices with quantized pitch cv.

New EP: "Quantussy Variations In C" thumbs up
So I finally made a tonal patch/recording. 5 x quantussy cells. The patch generates tracks in C. The tracks are demarcated with a high-hat sound. From a 15 min recording I selected 5 tracks. No editing other than fade out. I have saved the high-hat-ish sound in the beginning of each track. MTV next! lol
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/packs/25392/
I think my patch worked as I intended. Could use some fine tuning... But as always I unpatch and move on meh

Love Pärt btw applause some days ago I was on a concert listening to ”Spiegel im Spiegel”, ”Cantate Domino” and ”Berliner Messe”. I think Pärt would patch up a quantussy patch if he had a modular hihi
cptnal
Marvellous work! You make me want to reach for the stackables again. Perhaps this time I could coax my Distings into being cells four and five...
pugix
cptnal wrote:
Perhaps this time I could coax my Distings into being cells four and five...


I often use the Disting dual S&H in a Quantussy cell, since both S&H get the same clock. Pair with any LFO with a ramp or triangle and a pulse or square wave.
gis_sweden
"Waiting for winter - Machine Composition Session" EP out now! w00t
New quantussy cell session. Made some changes in the patch. The bass gets pitch cv from an LFO -> attenuater -> 0hp rectifier -> VCO cv in. Small "module" big help. Easy DIY. The easiest!? One component. Recorded for 1 h then I selected 5 tracks. No editing of the sound other then fade in/out. I dont like Function as VC LFO... Well have to do for now. The tracks does not end up in the right order on freesound confused
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/packs/25408/

cptnal
Rather nice! Your brevity is admirable. I'd be inclined to dump the whole lot and let the listener decide (probably unfavourably).

Just patched up my first five-cell. It's orders of magnitude harder to keep track of what's going on when the modules are different. Three Batumi LFOs => Stages was easy. Anyway, it's doing something. screaming goo yo
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Just patched up my first five-cell.

applause Yes let us listen!

Are your modulargrid updated? Seeing some interesting things to try out...
> Quadra + Maths = 6 unipolar VC LFOs
> Stages 6 S/H, Disting 2 S/H, Disting 2/SH, A-148 2 s/H

7 with this? zombie
> PEG
> Wogglebug + URA = 2 S/H
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Just patched up my first five-cell.

applause Yes let us listen!

Are your modulargrid updated? Seeing some interesting things to try out...
> Quadra + Maths = 6 unipolar VC LFOs
> Stages 6 S/H, Disting 2 S/H, Disting 2/SH, A-148 2 s/H

7 with this? zombie
> PEG
> Wogglebug + URA = 2 S/H


Yes, it's all there. w00t

Since you ask, here's a snippet.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/cptnal/q002a[/s]

Five cells, two voices and a drone. One of the cells' triggers goes through the other channel of Maths as a slew limiter, and the end of cycle goes to a clock divider. The fourth division clocks a Mixwitch which randomly transposes.

The real challenge here was getting the drone to transpose by one semitone on just one of the transpositions (and static otherwise). I did this by multing the Mixwitch's output to a Compare 2 comparator so it would only open a VCA when the transposition voltage was in the window. Very fiddly to get just right! screaming goo yo

(Still on Soundcloud for the moment until I can get Freesound to behave. very frustrating )

P.S. Quadra isn't VC, at least without the expander.
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Since you ask, here's a snippet.

Great track. Interesting. Now you really have joined the quantussy association. Mr. Green
cptnal wrote:
P.S. Quadra isn't VC, at least without the expander.

d'oh! I'm so used to my quadra + expander. What an expander! It's a new world off possibilities!
But you have both Maths and PEG and more...
have unpatched my quantussy engine. I have to explore a new module. And I have to reorganize my cases… Prioritize.
What kind of problem do you have with freesound?
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Since you ask, here's a snippet.

Great track. Interesting. Now you really have joined the quantussy association. Mr. Green
cptnal wrote:
P.S. Quadra isn't VC, at least without the expander.

d'oh! I'm so used to my quadra + expander. What an expander! It's a new world off possibilities!
But you have both Maths and PEG and more...
have unpatched my quantussy engine. I have to explore a new module. And I have to reorganize my cases… Prioritize.
What kind of problem do you have with freesound?


Why, thank you. Freesound seems to be uploading stuff (after switching from Edge to IE) but when the progress bar completes the window goes blank. Haven't done much troubleshooting - yesterday's upload was the last thing I did before quitting for the night.
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Why, thank you. Freesound seems to be uploading stuff (after switching from Edge to IE) but when the progress bar completes the window goes blank.

I use Chrome. No problems. Are you trying to use "foreign characters"...? I remember having problems with Swedish letters, BUT I don't remember if it was on SoundCloud or Freesound...
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
I use Chrome. No problems. Are you trying to use "foreign characters"...? I remember having problems with Swedish letters, BUT I don't remember if it was on SoundCloud or Freesound...


Our alphabet's pretty boring. I'll try Chrome as a last resort. zombie
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
I'll try Chrome as a last resort. zombie

Strange!!?? woah
Testing new (bought 2nd hand) module. Does everybody who buy this module do the same first test?
Now I have 2 digital modules. This one was not planned but suddenly my craving for a sampler explode.
It's a big module (my biggest!) => reorganizing...
Generative patch in it's own way. I like how it just dies.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/448985/
pugix
cptnal wrote:


Since you ask, here's a snippet.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/cptnal/q002a[/s]

Five cells, two voices and a drone. One of the cells' triggers goes through the other channel of Maths as a slew limiter, and the end of cycle goes to a clock divider. The fourth division clocks a Mixwitch which randomly transposes.

The real challenge here was getting the drone to transpose by one semitone on just one of the transpositions (and static otherwise). I did this by multing the Mixwitch's output to a Compare 2 comparator so it would only open a VCA when the transposition voltage was in the window. Very fiddly to get just right! screaming goo yo


Nice one! I often find it fiddly to tweak this sort of patch.

Here's one I let loose for a live performance.

http://pugix.com/synth/live-patch-2-eurorack/
windchill
Very much a neophyte piece but this is my formal application for membership of the Quantussy Association.

3 Quantussy cells controlling pitch and triggers of 2 VCOs, with a third coming in via the Intellijel Shifty.

Despite regularly making pretty complex patches this is the first time I've really felt the need for stackables; with the many requirements for duplicating CVs and the tapping of outputs from the Quantussy cells I quickly used up all my mults. I'm going to have to buy some stackables if i continue this line of investigation.

gis_sweden
windchill wrote:
Very much a neophyte piece but this is my formal application for membership of the Quantussy Association

Membership granted. Welcome! w00t

Maybe we can form a religion we're not worthy lol
I have some ideas...

Messy patch and sound. Lovely.

Maybe I have a disproportionately/unusual large proportion of LFOs in relation to the size of my modular... Now when I have seen the light of Quantussy I find peace in having many VC LFOs and S/Hs. Modulation.
pugix
windchill wrote:
Very much a neophyte piece but this is my formal application for membership of the Quantussy Association.

3 Quantussy cells controlling pitch and triggers of 2 VCOs, with a third coming in via the Intellijel Shifty.

Despite regularly making pretty complex patches this is the first time I've really felt the need for stackables; with the many requirements for duplicating CVs and the tapping of outputs from the Quantussy cells I quickly used up all my mults. I'm going to have to buy some stackables if i continue this line of investigation.



Nice sounds! thumbs up

I use a lot of stack cables making these patches. The number of multiples you would need take up too much space. You can trace your patch more easily, too, with stack cables.
cptnal
Thanks, pugix, and apologies for what follows. Mr. Green

I reorganised your own notes and those gis_sweden passed on and came up with something that fits my own brain wiring better. Using this I was able to patch a three-cell Quantussy in about a minute. Thought I'd float it here both as a sanity check, and in the hope that it encourages wigglers with similar brain wiring to try it themselves if it had previously appeared too confusing...

This is fun!
pugix
cptnal wrote:
Thanks, pugix, and apologies for what follows. Mr. Green

I reorganised your own notes and those gis_sweden passed on and came up with something that fits my own brain wiring better. Using this I was able to patch a three-cell Quantussy in about a minute. Thought I'd float it here both as a sanity check, and in the hope that it encourages wigglers with similar brain wiring to try it themselves if it had previously appeared too confusing...

This is fun!


Looks right. Now, even though in the original Quantussy of the Cocoquantus all the oscillators are triangles, you can use sawtooth or any other angular waveform. These will produce different patterns.
cptnal
pugix wrote:
Looks right. Now, even though in the original Quantussy of the Cocoquantus all the oscillators are triangles, you can use sawtooth or any other angular waveform. These will produce different patterns.


Thanks for that. "Triangle" is purely shorthand. In fact Batumi's variable output is great for this application if you have the Poti expander and can switch shapes without repatching. (Note to self - investigate ways of changing wave shape with CV in a Quantussy context.)
BenA718
cptnal wrote:
Thanks, pugix, and apologies for what follows. Mr. Green

I reorganised your own notes and those gis_sweden passed on and came up with something that fits my own brain wiring better. Using this I was able to patch a three-cell Quantussy in about a minute. Thought I'd float it here both as a sanity check, and in the hope that it encourages wigglers with similar brain wiring to try it themselves if it had previously appeared too confusing...

This is fun!

Thanks for this! I am intrigued to give this a go but have a n00b question: what modules are typically used for ‘Master’ and ‘Castle’? Are these LFOs? VCOs? Other? Or are they groups of modules?

Sorry, but I find it rather impenetrable in general to understand. smile
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
I reorganised...

Elegant quantussy cell description applause I call the two S/Hs upper and lower (in my head). Probably because many S/Hs are dual. If I connect your description of a “generic quantussy cell” to 1) the next cell and 2) to VCO and VCA (“typical patch”) it would look like this. I hope I’m right…
cptnal
BenA718 wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Thanks, pugix, and apologies for what follows. Mr. Green

I reorganised your own notes and those gis_sweden passed on and came up with something that fits my own brain wiring better. Using this I was able to patch a three-cell Quantussy in about a minute. Thought I'd float it here both as a sanity check, and in the hope that it encourages wigglers with similar brain wiring to try it themselves if it had previously appeared too confusing...

This is fun!

Thanks for this! I am intrigued to give this a go but have a n00b question: what modules are typically used for ‘Master’ and ‘Castle’? Are these LFOs? VCOs? Other? Or are they groups of modules?

Sorry, but I find it rather impenetrable in general to understand. smile


Master and Castle are both common-or-garden sample and holds.

Why not try sketching out something that makes sense to your way of thinking if previous diagrams don't work for you? (That's assuming you'd want to - I'm guessing by the fact you're posting you have at least a passing interest.)
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
cptnal wrote:
I reorganised...

Elegant quantussy cell description applause I call the two S/Hs upper and lower (in my head). Probably because many S/Hs are dual. If I connect your description of a “generic quantussy cell” to 1) the next cell and 2) to VCO and VCA (“typical patch”) it would look like this. I hope I’m right…


Interesting. I've been taking the Castle out to a quantizer and using its trigger to fire an envelope. Taking the CV out from an LFO would lead to different effects... hyper

The proof of the efficacy of this diagram will be when I try to extend my current three-cell patch to four, five, and on...
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Taking the CV out from an LFO would lead to different effects... hyper

Indeed!!! It's peanut butter jelly time!
Hurry home to your synth!
BenA718
cptnal wrote:


Master and Castle are both common-or-garden sample and holds.

Why not try sketching out something that makes sense to your way of thinking if previous diagrams don't work for you? (That's assuming you'd want to - I'm guessing by the fact you're posting you have at least a passing interest.)

I do, indeed! And I shall! Thanks for the added detail, hard to know where you are going when you don’t know where you are!
gis_sweden
2 voices from a 5 quantussy cell patch made in VCV-Rack.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/449709/
Yes, the LFOs are controlling the VCAs.
pugix
You can also use the Castle out to control a VCA. Keep in mind that if sampling a bipolar LFO, the VCA will cut off for negative CV.
cptnal
pugix wrote:
You can also use the Castle out to control a VCA. Keep in mind that if sampling a bipolar LFO, the VCA will cut off for negative CV.


Good point, which I shall rectify in the next iteration. (See what I did there? Mr. Green )

And nice track, gis_sweden. Almost Krell. Gonna try without a quantizer now. hyper
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Gonna try without a quantizer now. hyper

You can do it thumbs up w00t Let it go!

End of the term and Christmas coming up! Dead Banana
So much to do. #3kids... But I found some minutes to spend with the synth. Having fun patching up ASR. No quantizer!
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/449900/
The spring reverb sounds so nice with some feedback!
cptnal
Once again I am humbled by your brevity. I recorded five hours of that last Quantussy. There's probably a few minutes in there worth sharing if only I could find it...

Either our minds work in a spooky parallel, or we're both reacting to the same outside factors, because as a break from a weekend of Quantussy I patched up a shift register too. Although I cheated and used an out-the-box one. oops
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
I recorded five hours of that last Quantussy. There's probably a few minutes in there worth sharing if only I could find it...

hihi Select from you first recording between 4 minutes and 4 minutes and 45 secons (04:00 to 04:45). Track length 45 seconds. Upload. Freesound? thumbs up

cptnal wrote:
I patched up a shift register too. Although I cheated and used an out-the-box one. oops

An ASR module makes it much easier lol
Here is a no fuss plain ASR patch. Does it sound correct?
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/449982/
BenA718
Hi guys,

I set aside some time tonight to try building a quantussy cell but I am still rather confused as to the actual connections here.

Using the image found here and using my Function/Disting Dual S&H found in the Disting/Slew diagram, could one of you please answer the following questions:

For Castle In/Gray: Is this input noise?
For Castle Out/Red: Where is this going to? A VCO?

For CV In/Violet: What is this CV supposed to be? Is this the output from the Function? If not, where is the output from the Function supposed to go?

Thanks in advance!
cptnal
Be advised, these sounds haven't passed moderation yet. (hides)

https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/?page=1

There are seven since the five hours of recording was split across multiple sessions, but I applied the same 4-4:45 criteria to each. Some are more different than others because I changed the voices, but the underlying Quantussy patch was the same. Timings are not exact. It's hard to focus when they don't all start at zero. Mr. Green


And I like the almost-in-tuneness of your ASR. Very sweet. thumbs up
cptnal
BenA718 wrote:
Hi guys,

I set aside some time tonight to try building a quantussy cell but I am still rather confused as to the actual connections here.

Using the image found here and using my Function/Disting Dual S&H found in the Disting/Slew diagram, could one of you please answer the following questions:

For Castle In/Gray: Is this input noise?
For Castle Out/Red: Where is this going to? A VCO?

For CV In/Violet: What is this CV supposed to be? Is this the output from the Function? If not, where is the output from the Function supposed to go?

Thanks in advance!


This is something that confused me when I started. It really does make sense to combine them in a ring so that each feeds into the next. Otherwise it's pretty much a fancy sample and hold. Do you have six S&Hs at your disposal (Stages will give you six)? I'm not sure whether two cells would cut it (4 S&Hs)... hmmm.....
BenA718
I have four sample and holds that I can use.
dave999z
gis_sweden wrote:
2 voices from a 5 quantussy cell patch made in VCV-Rack.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/449709/
Yes, the LFOs are controlling the VCAs.


Nice. Feel like I’m back in college music theory class listening to the New Viennese School.
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Be advised, these sounds haven't passed moderation yet.

Very nice snippets. You will love them later on. They are of different atmosphere. Q003g should easily pass as background muisc in a nature film. Your sounds are so different from mine. applause

cptnal wrote:
And I like the almost-in-tuneness of your ASR. Very sweet.

Yep my ASR is very much almost-in-tune. I sample from the quantizer but still it does not work perfect. But I don't have three quantizers.

BenA718 wrote:
I have four sample and holds that I can use.

This is the world of modular. Everything is possible. You can do a Quantussy Light.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/450202/
Just one S/H per cell. I send you an picture/link.

dave999z wrote:
Nice. Feel like I’m back in college music theory class listening to the New Viennese School.

Welcome to this thread lol

---------
Some times you just get tired of generative, of variations, of trying, of... very frustrating
[s]https://soundcloud.com/sliversounds/until-2019-01-31-feat-aa[/s]
cptnal
BenA718 wrote:
I have four sample and holds that I can use.


What are they, and what LFOs would you use? I started to sketch out how I would do two cells on MG. But it got messy pretty quickly so probably wouldn't be much help.

I had a bit of a reshuffle last night, so will go home to a Tabula Rasa after work today. Good opportunity to test this out and we can compare notes. This is fun!
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Be advised, these sounds haven't passed moderation yet.

Very nice snippets. You will love them later on. They are of different atmosphere. Q003g should easily pass as background muisc in a nature film. Your sounds are so different from mine. applause


Why thank you. thumbs up

Just realised I can't count ("seven" in the description where there are eight). And I guess the moderators have long queues - still waiting...

Edit: I can count, but I uploaded my previous Quantussy slice by mistake. d'oh!
BenA718
cptnal wrote:
BenA718 wrote:
I have four sample and holds that I can use.


What are they, and what LFOs would you use? I started to sketch out how I would do two cells on MG. But it got messy pretty quickly so probably wouldn't be much help.

I had a bit of a reshuffle last night, so will go home to a Tabula Rasa after work today. Good opportunity to test this out and we can compare notes. This is fun!

gis_sweden was kind enough to make a patch in VCV and send a screen cap over (thanks again, gis_sweden!) and I can clearly see the patch now.

Thanks to everyone who helped out!

I have to check my VCOs to see how many of them have an LFO option to take advantage of the FM input.

Unfortunately, I lost the window of opportunity last night and probably won’t get back to it until the weekend. :(
cptnal
BenA718 wrote:
cptnal wrote:
BenA718 wrote:
I have four sample and holds that I can use.


What are they, and what LFOs would you use? I started to sketch out how I would do two cells on MG. But it got messy pretty quickly so probably wouldn't be much help.

I had a bit of a reshuffle last night, so will go home to a Tabula Rasa after work today. Good opportunity to test this out and we can compare notes. This is fun!

gis_sweden was kind enough to make a patch in VCV and send a screen cap over (thanks again, gis_sweden!) and I can clearly see the patch now.

Thanks to everyone who helped out!

I have to check my VCOs to see how many of them have an LFO option to take advantage of the FM input.

Unfortunately, I lost the window of opportunity last night and probably won’t get back to it until the weekend. :(


The good news is you can get away with two cells quite happily. The LFOs' shapes are more obvious than they would otherwise be, but still plenty of variety to keep you interested. Works for me anyway. I'm going to play with this one a while longer... This is fun!
BenA718
cptnal wrote:
BenA718 wrote:
cptnal wrote:
BenA718 wrote:
I have four sample and holds that I can use.


What are they, and what LFOs would you use? I started to sketch out how I would do two cells on MG. But it got messy pretty quickly so probably wouldn't be much help.

I had a bit of a reshuffle last night, so will go home to a Tabula Rasa after work today. Good opportunity to test this out and we can compare notes. This is fun!

gis_sweden was kind enough to make a patch in VCV and send a screen cap over (thanks again, gis_sweden!) and I can clearly see the patch now.

Thanks to everyone who helped out!

I have to check my VCOs to see how many of them have an LFO option to take advantage of the FM input.

Unfortunately, I lost the window of opportunity last night and probably won’t get back to it until the weekend. :(


The good news is you can get away with two cells quite happily. The LFOs' shapes are more obvious than they would otherwise be, but still plenty of variety to keep you interested. Works for me anyway. I'm going to play with this one a while longer... This is fun!

Great, thanks!
mritenburg
Just to add another perspective to the question of self-running patches. I like to use a combination of structure and uncertainty. I use sequencers and clock dividers to create structure, and then random modules to create uncertainty. In this patch I use a Wogglebug, Verbos Random, Doepfer A-149-1/2, and a Doepfer A-148 sample and hold.

cptnal
cool

...but you don't get away with it that easy, buddy. Not in this thread. Redneck

We want patch notes! It's peanut butter jelly time!
cptnal
Gonna keep banging on Quantussy until someone comes up with something else. Mr. Green

Five cells, and only an A110-4 going into Maths as the sound source. Sine to channel 1's signal input, cosine into channel 4's trigger. Sum out to A101-2 LPG, and channel 4 EOC into LxD in part C. Modulating both Boths from the cell, an attenuated and quantized castle output for pitch, and LFO outputs from the cell open the LPGs. I'm also feeding back Maths' OR to the A110-4's XFM.

Posting this because I think it demonstrates the... ahem ...variety of modulation possibilities of this patch. SlayerBadger!

https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453135/
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453134/
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453133/


Curious to hear how BenA718's getting on. hmmm.....
pugix
cptnal wrote:

https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453135/
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453134/
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453133/


I get File Not Found on all of those links. confused
cptnal
pugix wrote:
cptnal wrote:

https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453135/
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453134/
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453133/


I get File Not Found on all of those links. confused


Bugger! Will fix tomorrow. Still getting the hang of Freesound.
cptnal
cptnal wrote:
pugix wrote:
cptnal wrote:

https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453135/
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453134/
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453133/


I get File Not Found on all of those links. confused


Bugger! Will fix tomorrow. Still getting the hang of Freesound.


Links look good now. Reckon it must have been that they hadn't been moderated.

But that short wait has given me another insight into this patch. The three clips I posted are random selections from a one-hour recording, but they still have some consistency. I've had the synth on and off several times in the meantime and each time the patch has sounded different. It pays to let it play and play and play...
Dcramer
Cptnal, e,f,& g are sweet! Delicate little impulses woah I must try a Quantussy patch someday!

Here my latest with detailed notes and video:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=210604

I wondered about adding it to the Krell thread instead but it uses this summed env/comparator trick so it’s not really a Krell patch hmmm.....
cptnal
Dcramer wrote:
Cptnal, e,f,& g are sweet! Delicate little impulses woah I must try a Quantussy patch someday!

Here my latest with detailed notes and video:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=210604

I wondered about adding it to the Krell thread instead but it uses this summed env/comparator trick so it’s not really a Krell patch hmmm.....


Why, thank you. As an admirer of your own work your kind words are most gratifying. Guinness ftw!

I'd recommend trying it out. You'll find plenty there to amuse you. I've moved onto a multi-voice Quantussy now (and using exclusively digital oscillators woah ) and there's so much going on - and I find the editing process a bit of a chore - that I'm considering dropping an hour-long mega-snippet on Freesound and let the listener dip in and out as they please. hmmm.....
pugix
cptnal wrote:
cptnal wrote:
pugix wrote:
cptnal wrote:

https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453135/
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453134/
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/453133/


I get File Not Found on all of those links. confused


Bugger! Will fix tomorrow. Still getting the hang of Freesound.


Links look good now. Reckon it must have been that they hadn't been moderated.

But that short wait has given me another insight into this patch. The three clips I posted are random selections from a one-hour recording, but they still have some consistency. I've had the synth on and off several times in the meantime and each time the patch has sounded different. It pays to let it play and play and play...


Thanks for fixing. These are quite active. Have you tried slowing down some of the initial rates of LFOs, etc.? I find that tuning this kind of patch requires balancing initial rates with CV levels to get more interesting results. I try to find settings where the overall activity can slow down at times and speed up again. But sometimes I have to listen for ten minutes or more to get the feeling of the effect of the settings.

Hopefully it sounds different even when you've left it on! smile

Powering on, different modules can come up in slightly different states each time. The patch I did for a Modular-On-The-Spot always started out with very slow changes and gathered speed as it went. That aspect was consistent. So when I played it at the event, I started it just by powering on.
cptnal
Indeed, this is what I meant when I thought about dumping an hour-long section. If you have a five-cell ring with some fast and some slow you can get some nice periods of calm alternating with more activity. It's all very hunt -the-sweet-spot. The four voice one I mentioned had a nice bass from BIA which would do nothing for ten minutes, contribute a phrase or two, then disappear again.

Meanwhile, I hope to take delivery of a Quadra Expander today, then all your envelopes are belong to voltage control. w00t

One of the things on the to-try list is a unipolar Quantussy ring. Then I can reclaim some attenuverters for more productive tasks. thumbs up
RetroNice
I have only recently started, pondering which way to go deeper into, sequenced/self generating + random...
this thread is useful to me, thanks
cptnal
RetroNice wrote:
I have only recently started, pondering which way to go deeper into, sequenced/self generating + random...
this thread is useful to me, thanks


Welcome to a world of fun! w00t
RetroNice
cptnal wrote:
RetroNice wrote:
I have only recently started, pondering which way to go deeper into, sequenced/self generating + random...
this thread is useful to me, thanks


Welcome to a world of fun! w00t


Thanks! hyper
pugix
cptnal wrote:

One of the things on the to-try list is a unipolar Quantussy ring. Then I can reclaim some attenuverters for more productive tasks. thumbs up


The real Quantussy (in the Cocoquantus) is unipolar, which makes all the samples positive. This has the side effect of increasing the overall rates as the chaos (depth of CV modulation) increases. My Quantisise works the same way. But if you employ bipolar LFOs, then at minimum chaos the LFOs are in in the center of their range. I usually have some of each in a Eurorack version.

Edit: I suppose you can invert S&H outputs at any point.
cptnal
What I'm doing (in the bipolar realm) is offsetting the outputs I want to use for envelopes and pitch. The rest is fair game. It's on my list to try mixing things up a bit. At this stage I'm trying to keep things as consistent as possible between cells until I get the feel of the patch under my fingers. But I dare say I'll be able to rustle up enough resources for six or seven cells when I get round to it. woah

For anyone who's interested, it's worthwhile trying to recreate the patch dcramer mentioned a few posts back (overlapping envelopes retriggered from a comparator). I don't have a Klee so I'm using a Turing machine. Four voices following the pitch, two of which are pitched down three semitones (what's that in pounds and ounces? hmmm..... ). Much timbral lushness to be had, especially if you mult the envelopes to other parameters, but by 'eck those comparators are a devil to set [i]just so]/i]. zombie

Edited: Using a Turning machine, not a shift register. And it sounds a lot better with the two voices tuned to fifths. Mr. Green
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Gonna keep banging on Quantussy until someone comes up with something else. Mr. Green

Five cells, and only an A110-4 going into Maths as the sound source. Sine to channel 1's signal input, cosine into channel 4's trigger. Sum out to A101-2 LPG, and channel 4 EOC into LxD in part C. Modulating both Boths from the cell, an attenuated and quantized castle output for pitch, and LFO outputs from the cell open the LPGs. I'm also feeding back Maths' OR to the A110-4's XFM.

applause creative! Sounds like some bizarre guitar solo hihi

I'm testing "cvlfo-chain-rhythm-machine"...
A chain of 3 cv lfos are generating the rhythm. The first lfo are slightly modulated by a sloth. A phonogne is acting as some sort of strange tone collector and tape-delay (new addition). My usual delay is also involved.

My lfo-chain. Giving you a lot of cv and triggers!

sloth....lfo(1).......lfo(2).......lfo(3)
cv----> cv in
...........sqr ----> reset
........................sin ------> cv in
.......................................sqr ----> clock div

[s]https://soundcloud.com/sliversounds/kedja-bast-fore-19-02-20[/s]
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Gonna keep banging on Quantussy until someone comes up with something else. Mr. Green

Five cells, and only an A110-4 going into Maths as the sound source. Sine to channel 1's signal input, cosine into channel 4's trigger. Sum out to A101-2 LPG, and channel 4 EOC into LxD in part C. Modulating both Boths from the cell, an attenuated and quantized castle output for pitch, and LFO outputs from the cell open the LPGs. I'm also feeding back Maths' OR to the A110-4's XFM.

applause creative! Sounds like some bizarre guitar solo hihi

I'm testing "cvlfo-chain-rhythm-machine"...
A chain of 3 cv lfos are generating the rhythm. The first lfo are slightly modulated by a sloth. A phonogne is acting as some sort of strange tone collector and tape-delay (new addition). My usual delay is also involved.

My lfo-chain. Giving you a lot of cv and triggers!

sloth....lfo(1).......lfo(2).......lfo(3)
cv----> cv in
...........sqr ----> reset
........................sin ------> cv in
.......................................sqr ----> clock div

[s]https://soundcloud.com/sliversounds/kedja-bast-fore-19-02-20[/s]


Strange Tone Collector... I like that. cool

There are lots of ideas burgeoning in your little gem...
gis_sweden
Hmmmm 100% unipolar. Okay. In this 5 x Quantussy cell patch i use only cycling ADs. MN Function and Intellijel Quadra + expander. Works. A very lively patch resulting in this recording.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/454804/
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
Hmmmm 100% unipolar. Okay. In this 5 x Quantussy cell patch i use only cycling ADs. MN Function and Intellijel Quadra + expander. Works. A very lively patch resulting in this recording.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/454804/


FM cool

One I stumbled across: Take two of the LFOs/functions and use them to open two VCAs for whacky stereo panning effects. I've got a four cell/two voice one going (not seeing any down side to an even number of cells) with everything running in pairs. Interesting stuff. This is fun!
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
FM cool

hihi

cptnal wrote:
One I stumbled across: Take two of the LFOs/functions and use them to open two VCAs for whacky stereo panning effects. I've got a four cell/two voice one going (not seeing any down side to an even number of cells) with everything running in pairs. Interesting stuff. This is fun!

Yep nice! I often do that with Sloth LFO. Sometimes just one LFO and a double attenuverter. That way you can control the panning in a nice way thumbs up
Or sqr-wave plus logic for extreme fx. (Hopefully I have a panning module next year... )
cptnal
Well, it looks like Freesound are making progress on clearing their festive backlog, so here's what I've been sitting on since last week...

Very pleased to have received my copy of "Notes" by our fellow wiggler pelsea (https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=204583&postdays=0&p ostorder=asc&start=62) and took an instant fancy to trying out the Entropical Paradise patch. I'd seen it before in Strange and it looked way too scary, but since then I've either progressed enough to tackle it or pelsea's rendition is more approachable (or both).

https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/455333/

After posting this I got the birds to behave better (control of noise and filter are critical - in this version they follow the sequencer too closely) but didn't fancy posting it again and waiting while it sat in another moderation queue.

Anyone else had a go, or have thoughts on this patch?
gis_sweden
Entropical Paradise Patch...
cptnal wrote:
it looked way too scary

+1
cptnal wrote:
Anyone else had a go, or have thoughts on this patch?

Not me. See above.

I don't have 2 sequencers. Maybe you can cheat in someway, but I have never tried. sad banana
Pelsea
gis_sweden wrote:
Entropical Paradise Patch...

I don't have 2 sequencers. Maybe you can cheat in someway, but I have never tried. sad banana


You could substitute a sample and hold for sequencer 2 and get similar results.
gis_sweden
Pelsea wrote:
You could substitute a sample and hold for sequencer 2 and get similar results.

Yeah, you're right. Thats the modular spirit thumbs up
I had to try. Here is how a VCV-Rack version of a not correct entropical paradise patch can sound.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/455613/
cptnal
Spirit indeed. And when you think of it, the basic idea of the crossover clocks could be the basis of a whole world of exploration...

This weekend's project. hyper
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Spirit indeed. And when you think of it, the basic idea of the crossover clocks could be the basis of a whole world of exploration...
This weekend's project. hyper

thumbs up
The definition of entropic is "having a tendency to change from a state of order to a state of disorder".
In this patch, made in VCV-Rack, I have used two sequencers. Each of them using just four steps.
I do not mix the cv from sequencer with cv from a random source.
This is a restricted unentropic paradise. The paradise before the fall of man...

https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/455625/

Why? There is some beauty in the thought and layout of this patch. Using only random for pitch cv just doesnt feel right for me...
It does not reflect the sprit of the patch. But might be fun anyway.

As said I have only one sequencer. BUT I can use sample and hold to sample at different times.
That might work... hmmm.....

EDIT: Yes! Nice. It works. Hard ware time! It's peanut butter jelly time!
boxxgrooved
gis_sweden wrote:

The definition of entropic is "having a tendency to change from a state of order to a state of disorder".


The most basic Krell patch can be turned into something that exibits more structure with a simple LFO. The idea is to mix the S/H CV hitting the function generator and oscillator with a very slow square wave LFO. The S/H CV needs to be attenuated to achieve less CV swing before being mixed with the LFO, and the LFO will also nees ayttenuating to taste. This way you end up with semi-random krell movement from the S/H combined with a switch from the LFO that moves the clocking of the patch up and down.

You could also slightly modulate the LFO from the same S/H source so that the structure of the change-ups becomes less predictable. I dont think this can be classed as a krell patch anymore but if the LFO is linked the same S/H source then there is nothing running independant Guinness ftw!

Having only 168HP of synth I am always hunting for ways to do more with less
boxxgrooved
Oh yeah, and great thread! There is a wealth of information in here. I will have to get my ass together and take a look at VCV rack to play with these quantussy ideas! Keep up the creative thinking! cool Guinness ftw!
cptnal
I'm gonna hit this thread once Freesound get their moderation queue in order (four days and counting very frustrating ).

Meanwhile thanks, boxxgrooved, for those ideas. Mixing Krell with square waves takes my mind towards sequencers (i.e. more than two predictable values). Kinda like the lovechild of Krell and Entropical. Meditate on this I shall... Om
cptnal
Now, I'll just leave this here... whistlin'


(TB is Da Man!)

Here's a couple of versions:

#1, Quantized, sounds to my ears like Eric Dolphy warming up.
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/455939/

#2, Unquantized, sounds more like "electronic" music proper.
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/455938/

In other news, here's what became of the Entropical/sequencers-only experiment. I struck lucky with the scales. The two seemed to be offset in a way that produced pleasing grace notes.
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/455930/

This is fun!
pugix
cptnal wrote:
Now, I'll just leave this here... whistlin'


(TB is Da Man!)

Here's a couple of versions:

#1, Quantized, sounds to my ears like Eric Dolphy warming up.
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/455939/

#2, Unquantized, sounds more like "electronic" music proper.
https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/455938/



Good points in Barton's video about fiddling with all the settings, once you have a patch, and then waiting, waiting.

I found the incessant panning to be distracting (listening on earbuds with max separation). I noticed that in your #1 too. In this sort of patch anything that remains constant will stand out. In your #2, I didn't notice a constant pan. It sounded like you have a mono-to-stereo effect there, and I do like that approach, since FX often does a nice job of spatializing.
pugix
In other news, Brud (Ummo) published a digital album of my stuff!

https://3uio.bandcamp.com/album/sound-postcards

He came to me with the offer and I selected ten 'songs' from my website and sent WAV files.

If you go to the detail for a given track, you will find a link back to pugix.com for more details.

Cheers!
heycarlosrossi
This thread has been incredibly helpful. applause
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Now, I'll just leave this here... whistlin'

Maybe time to try the Aleph Patch. I dont have Maths. hmmm.....

cptnal wrote:
In other news, here's what became of the Entropical/sequencers-only experiment.

Wonderful! applause
cptnal
To do:

heycarlosrossi, welcome! w00t

gis_sweden, thanks! Guinness ftw!
I'm sure you could contrive an equivalent to Maths' functionality in this patch with two channels from Quadra. In fact I was just wondering what this weekend's project should be, so that's it - the Mathsless Aleph. screaming goo yo

pugix, you're right about the panning. Easy to get caught up in the moment and forget the sacred art of subtlety.
I was a bit put off by the first selections in your new release (congrats, btw) because they have some high tones that interfered with my tinnitus. But the rest of it is really interesting. Looking forward to giving it a proper listen. thumbs up

P.S. gis_sweden, what do you mean you don't have a Maths!?
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
I'm sure you could contrive an equivalent to Maths' functionality in this patch with two channels from Quadra.

I guess. This Aleph patch reminds me of



Some pages ago...? (may 2017)

cptnal wrote:
P.S. gis_sweden, what do you mean you don't have a Maths!?

lol (but I have a Function)
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
cptnal wrote:
I'm sure you could contrive an equivalent to Maths' functionality in this patch with two channels from Quadra.

I guess. This Aleph patch reminds me of



Some pages ago...? (may 2017)



Why you using your hands? That's what CV is for. hihi

I'm liking those mini tapes on your channel. Will give them a proper listen later...
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Why you using your hands? That's what CV is for. hihi

My hand is getting CV from my brain thumbs up
pugix
cptnal wrote:

pugix, you're right about the panning. Easy to get caught up in the moment and forget the sacred art of subtlety.
I was a bit put off by the first selections in your new release (congrats, btw) because they have some high tones that interfered with my tinnitus. But the rest of it is really interesting. Looking forward to giving it a proper listen. thumbs up


Thanks for the listen. All of these are posted on my website, too. Did you try turning down the treble? smile

Ludebanti (the first one) incorporates Plague Bearer. Could that be what's disturbing? hihi
cptnal
pugix wrote:
cptnal wrote:

pugix, you're right about the panning. Easy to get caught up in the moment and forget the sacred art of subtlety.
I was a bit put off by the first selections in your new release (congrats, btw) because they have some high tones that interfered with my tinnitus. But the rest of it is really interesting. Looking forward to giving it a proper listen. thumbs up


Thanks for the listen. All of these are posted on my website, too. Did you try turning down the treble? smile

Ludebanti (the first one) incorporates Plague Bearer. Could that be what's disturbing? hihi


Call me old fashioned, but I bought it. w00t Enjoying it - loads of variety.

And re Quadra for the Aleph patch - fell at the first hurdle. No CV over cycle! d'oh! And d'oh! d'oh! if you want to use URA's R-Pulse out to cycle Maths' channel one instead of doing it manually. (gis_sweden, get a Maths!)
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
...I bought it. w00t Enjoying it - loads of variety.

+1

cptnal wrote:
And re Quadra for the Aleph patch - fell at the first hurdle. No CV over cycle!

I have the EXPANDER! love thumbs up w00t etc...
Now I have do the Aleph twisted
In someway!
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
cptnal wrote:
...I bought it. w00t Enjoying it - loads of variety.

+1

cptnal wrote:
And re Quadra for the Aleph patch - fell at the first hurdle. No CV over cycle!

I have the EXPANDER! love thumbs up w00t etc...
Now I have do the Aleph twisted
In someway!


I have the expander now too. Still no CV over cycle. waah
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Still no CV over cycle. waah

Oh, now I understand! d'oh!
You are right. "No CV over cycle" on Function either.
A real challenge!
gis_sweden
Maybe you have seen this https://aaassembly.org/?
"Two days of talks and two nights of live music, focused on algorithmic tools and processes." What is algorithmic music/composition? I'm having problem finding a definition... What is NOT algorithmic?
Had to make a patch to my thoughts! In the description I ask "Do I have to be able to declare a specific algorithm used - a formula? Is calculation made in a VCA enough? A LFO CV is algorithmic? I use 5 LFOs and 2 cycling envelopes in this patch. Isn't that algorithmic? I think I have find a definition..."

[s]https://soundcloud.com/sliversounds/algorithmic-dance-for-simple-so unds-until-190314[/s]
(track if the link works... Not important anyway...)
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
Maybe you have seen this https://aaassembly.org/?
"Two days of talks and two nights of live music, focused on algorithmic tools and processes." What is algorithmic music/composition? I'm having problem finding a definition... What is NOT algorithmic?
Had to make a patch to my thoughts! In the description I ask "Do I have to be able to declare a specific algorithm used - a formula? Is calculation made in a VCA enough? A LFO CV is algorithmic? I use 5 LFOs and 2 cycling envelopes in this patch. Isn't that algorithmic? I think I have find a definition..."

[s]https://soundcloud.com/sliversounds/algorithmic-dance-for-simple-so unds-until-190314[/s]
(track if the link works... Not important anyway...)


I think the title's too long for your link to embed. You also have to remove the "s" from "https".

To make an attempt at answering the question "do I have to be able to declare a specific algorithm used", my short answer would be "depends". I reckon very few people outside these fora (and even fewer outside this thread) care what you call it. But if you want to call it algorithmic and you don't use some process or another you'd be in danger of becoming one of those who sticks a Wogglebug into a filter cutoff and calls it "generative". It doesn't matter what it is, but sometimes descriptions are useful, except when they're not accurate.

Make sense? seriously, i just don't get it
gis_sweden
We tend to label music. We label types of music. We label ways of making music. In this tread we talk about generative music made with modular synth. We discuss techniques to patch our synths to became semi-autonomous instruments. Our synths can never be totally autonomous. In the other end. Generative music is not a wogglebug connected to a filter? Maybe not.
Many of the techniques we use are of more technical interest.
Generative music made with modular synths are algorithmic music!
Risto Holopainen writes “Autonomous instruments are computer programs that generate music algorithmically and without realtime interaction, from the waveform level up to the large scale form.”
But I think when ppl talk about algorithmic music today, they refer to pure data, use of AI, Max/MSP, live coding etc… Don’t know anything about them… But Pure Data and Max/MSP what do they look like… hihi They look like Euro "Standard" ftl ?!?!?

If I connect a wogglebug (if I had one) to a filter it is algorithmic music Guinness ftw!

Very algorithmic music
https://soundcloud.com/sliversounds/algorithmic-dance-for-simple-sound s-until-190314
pugix
It seems to me that algorithms apply only to computers. Look up the definition. An algorithm is a sequence of steps. A computer program is a collection of algorithms.

Analog synthesizers do not use algorithms (except of course those running inside digital modules). Patches are not algorithms. Analog functions can be expressed in formulas, but we usually don't think that way. For example a VCA is multiplication of two signals, but we can think of it as gain automation.

Inside Audulus, a soft synth, everything is expresses as formulas at the lowest level. It's pretty wild to look at a filter in Audulus - it's a very complex formula. In Audulus you don't write algorithms; you write (or use the available) formulas and then patch them together, as in a modular. But of course it all runs on top of algorithms that transform the formulas into signals that eventually reach your sound card.
cptnal
The word works as a metaphor, but like most metaphors it breaks down the closer you look at it.
Pelsea
Algorithms are much older than computers-- the word dates to antiquity and simply means rule. There are plenty of examples of algorithmic music from the baroque and classical era (See Mozart's Musical dice game, or Bach's Crab Canon). More recently we have Arvo Part and Steve Reich.

It is true that we generally use computers for algorithmic music-- in fact, I co-taught (with David Cope) a summer workshop in that for 15 years. If you want to be impressed with what algorithmic music can do, check out Dave's Experiments in Musical Intelligence:
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/algorithmic-music-david-cope-and- emi/



http://soundcloud.com/ai-emily_howell

Any language can be used for algorithmic composition-- we taught the workshop in LISP, but I personally prefer Max/MSP. In fact, I use Max (with a home brew interface) to run my modular most of the time. X=S*(1-X) is my goto patch for testing things. I use fuzzy logic to do harmony and cellular automata to generate rhythms.

You can certainly patch algorithms on your modular. Consider your typical sample and hold patch. If you are sampling noise, you are doing statistical analysis of the noise source. Sampling a steady waveform produces patterns based on the product of the periods of the sampled wave and sample clock. Sloth and Wogglebug are examples of modules that incorporate chaotic algorithms, but you can also get chaos out of LFOs (see quantiussy patches presented earlier).
cptnal
OK, it's early stages of my thinking on this, but it's along the lines of "computer code - if/then/else; loop until... " that kind of thing. The first thing I tried is logic.

I happened to have a three-cell Quantussy on the go whose only input is a sine wave. There are three outputs: the pure sine, the sine ring modulated by itself, and a sample rate reduced version. Both of the latter are modulated by the cells. (The sidebands introduced by these techniques give it an almost polyphonic feel.) What this latest line of thought suggested was to take copies of the three EOC triggers into a Doepfer A166 and use the AND output to drive a sequential switch. Now the inputs to the Quantussy are a choice of the original sine, a triangle through a phaser, and a square through a bandpass filter. The latter two again modulated by the cells.

What happens is as expected, and the results are quite pleasing. It jumps around between inputs sometimes, then lands on one of the inputs and stays there for a while. All told it gives another layer of self-regulating variety to what is already an almost self-conscious patch.

Making the inputs more complex than common-or-garden waveforms probably won't work in this instance because of what I'm doing to them downstream, but the concept has legs... This is fun!

And I will attempt to stop myself getting too carried away with this one and to devote some thinking time to how one might apply coding concepts to patching. hmmm.....

Meanwhile, here's a few minutes...
[s]http://soundcloud.com/cptnal/q007c[/s]
oberdada
gis_sweden wrote:

Generative music made with modular synths are algorithmic music!
Risto Holopainen writes “Autonomous instruments are computer programs that generate music algorithmically and without realtime interaction, from the waveform level up to the large scale form.”


Sounds familiar. But that's what I wrote before I had much knowledge of modular synths.
https://ristoid.net/research.html

As Pelsea says, algorithms don't necessarily have to be carried out on computers. And as pugix points out, an algorithm is a procedure carried out in a series of steps, thus something to be done in the setting of discrete time. Yet there is the idea about the computational nature of physical processes with Stephen Wolfram as one of its main proponents. I guess if you follow that line of thought you have to conclude that analog computation, including anything a modular synth does, must be algorithmic too. But then mental processes too qualify as algorithms, in particular the mental process of composing music in any way conceivable.

So according to the view that physical reality is computational, there is no way of making music other than the algorithmic way!

Even if you don't cling to the computational view of nature I think the case can be made that generative modular music is algorithmic. I would argue that each circuit, theoretically at least, can be simulated in a digital version which is just an algorithm, and a collection of several of these simulation-algorithms is still just an algorithm.
Pelsea
Algorithms don't have to be code. I just happen to find that convenient because of the tools at my disposal. But there are many ways to do rule based composition. For instance:

Place a microphone close (not too close) to a popcorn popper. Run the signal through an envelope follower with trigger output to generate notes driven by the (Poisson distribution) pops of the corn.

Set the knobs of your sequencer according to the Dow-Jones values of the last 16 days. Use to set the base frequency of a drone.

Program the sequencer to play a 7 note scale. Use the same clock to drive an 8 beat drum pattern.

Sample (& hold) an audio rate ramp waveform. Adjust the frequency of the ramp to produce a circle of fifths.

Mount a loose joystick upside down on some sort of stand. Attach a catnip toy to it and let your cat play with it.

You see what I am getting at? Anything you can connect to the system is fair game. The point of algorithmic composition (as far as I am concerned) is you can compose something that will come out differently on each performance yet will remain the same piece.
cptnal
Indeed the simplest algorithm would be a pulse: go high, wait Xms, repeat. Where it's interesting me is taking a process from one discipline and trying to map it to the modular. Code is a good place to start for me because it's familiar and a lot of the work has already been done. Perhaps there are other disciplines that could be useful.

And I've thought of another one - the Do/While Loop. Comparator sets your logical condition and the gate out does something like start/stop a sequencer. The way I'm thinking of using it is to engage cycling in a Maths channel, and use the EOC to clock a sample and hold. So the S&H only does its thing while the condition is true.

And I like the idea of using patterns from the real world (except the joystick one - I have a hard enough time keeping the cats away from my synth). I really must get to work on a new case so I can get the SMR back in. Its six envelope followers are great at generating CV from any audio input.
gis_sweden
oberdada wrote:
Sounds familiar.

hihi
oberdada wrote:
...there is no way of making music other than the algorithmic way!

I suspect that algorithmic music need a better definition. Or else all music is algorithmic.
As written I can do logic, if statements, multiplication, addition, random etc with my analog modules.

But if you want code... Okey.

Line 10 to 80 is the steps of A-161 (CLK SEQU.)

REM SPEED IS Tromsø_1 CYCLING AT (SPEED). In this case 0.5 HZ
REM CV_1 IS A-147-2 (SIN)
REM GATE_1 IS A-147
REM GATE_2 IS Tromsø_2
REM BEEP_1 IS A-110 AT 220 HZ
REM BEEP_2 IS BERMUDA AND LONG AD TO VCA
REM SAMPLE IS BELL SOUND ON PHONOGENE
REM VOLTAGE_1 IS ALM010 - O/A/x2
REM RND-VALUE_2 IS A-148 SAMPLES CV_1 (A-147-2)

05 SET SPEED = 0.5 HZ
10 IF CV_1 > 3V THEN BEEP_1: REM SAMPLE CV_1 COMPARE. IF > 3V GATE TO AD => OPEN VCA => BEEP_1
20 IF (GATE_1 IS HIGH ) AND (GATE_2 IS HIGH) GET RND-VALUE_1
30 BEEP_2 (CV_IN = RND_VALUE_1): REM TONE FROM BERMUDA
40 IF (GATE_1 IS LOW) AND (GATE_2 IS HIGH) THEN GOTO 10: REM RESET
50 PLAY SAMPLE (SPEED = RND-VALUE_1)
60 CV_VALUE_1 = RND-VALUE_2 + VOLTAGE_1 (1V): REM SAMPLE GATE_2
70 SET GATE_1 (CV IN = CV_VALUE_1)
80 IF CV_1 > 4V THEN BEEP_1: REM SAMPLE CV_1 COMPARE. IF > 4V GATE TO AD => OPEN VCA => BEEP_1
90 GOTO 10
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
05 SET SPEED = 0.5 HZ
10 IF CV_1 > 3V THEN BEEP_1: REM SAMPLE CV_1 COMPARE. IF > 3V GATE TO AD => OPEN VCA => BEEP_1
20 IF (GATE_1 IS HIGH ) AND (GATE_2 IS HIGH) GET RND-VALUE_1
30 BEEP_2 (CV_IN = RND_VALUE_1): REM TONE FROM BERMUDA
40 IF (GATE_1 IS LOW) AND (GATE_2 IS HIGH) THEN GOTO 10: REM RESET
50 PLAY SAMPLE (SPEED = RND-VALUE_1)
60 CV_VALUE_1 = RND-VALUE_2 + VOLTAGE_1 (1V): REM SAMPLE GATE_2
70 SET GATE_1 (CV IN = CV_VALUE_1)
80 IF CV_1 > 4V THEN BEEP_1: REM SAMPLE CV_1 COMPARE. IF > 4V GATE TO AD => OPEN VCA => BEEP_1
90 GOTO 10


Sounds beautiful. love
Pelsea
gis_sweden wrote:

I suspect that algorithmic music need a better definition. Or else all music is algorithmic.


Most algorithmic composers use some sort of rule to provide pitches. Non algorithmic composers just imagine what it should sound like and write it down. Of course there are plenty of rules associated with traditional music, but they are mostly about things you shouldn't do. If a computer or the I Ching is picking the pitches to play, I call it algorithmic.

There are really two branches of algorithmic music these days-- one is sometimes called process music, where the notes follow a formula or some natural phenomenon, the other is artificial intelligence, where we use data mining or expert systems to produce something more traditional (That's actually a hot area-- a couple of my past students code algorithmic music to run in video games instead of those endless 16 bar loops.)

Of course, there's a lot of combinations of algorithmic and traditional operations. I have code that generates harmony for my improvisations, and there's always "Band In A Box."
Sleipnir
Pelsea wrote:
Mount a loose joystick upside down on some sort of stand. Attach a catnip toy to it and let your cat play with it.

Careful, you may have just created the ideal Muff's module lol
In all seriousness, this is one of the reasons I love modular: anything that creates a voltage -- or has a changing/able resistance -- can be a controller.
I got some ebay Piezo mics and attached them to things I can hit or press - blam.
gis_sweden
Algorithmic drone music program w00t
The computer that runs my algorithm is my analog modular synth.
01 to 08 are clock sequencer steps.

00 rem osc_1 - wave shaped sin oscillator (osc) - tuned to 130Hz
00 rem osc_2 - clean sin from oscillator - tuned to 130Hz
00 rem osc_3 - sqr from oscillator through filter - osc tuned to 130Hz
00 rem clk speed = 0.5 Hz
00 rem line 01 each of the 3 vcas gets an unique cv value ([gate] -> [3 s/h] -> [3 vca])
00 rem ---------------------------------------------------
01 sample values for vca (cv in) x 3 (osc_1, osc_2, osc_3)
02 sample frq for osc_1
03 sample frq for osc_2
04 sample new clk speed
05 sample frq for vibrato in osc_1
06 sample frq for osc_3
07 env to all vca
08 sample cv for (osc_3) filter
10 goto 01

When I begin the recording the program has been running for a while.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/456758/
You are welcome to test my program thumbs up
[edit 190117]
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
Algorithmic drone music program w00t
The computer that runs my algorithm is my analog modular synth.
01 to 08 are clock sequencer steps.

00 rem osc_1 - wave shaped oscillator (osc) - tuned to 130Hz
00 rem osc_2 - clean sin from oscillator - tuned to 130Hz
00 rem osc_3 - sqr from oscillator - tuned to 130Hz
00 rem clk speed = 0.5 Hz
00 rem ---------------------------------------------------
01 sample values for vca (cv in) x 3 (osc_1, osc_2, osc_3)
02 sample frq for osc_1
03 sample frq for osc_2
04 sample new clk speed
05 sample frq for vibrato in osc_1
06 sample frq for osc_3
07 env to all vca
08 sample cv for filter
10 goto 01

When I begin the recording the program has been running for a while.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/456758/
You are welcome to test my program thumbs up


Dig. cool

Don't have a clock sequencer. waah Although I could probably contrive something less linear. hmmm.....

Currently got a Quantussy/Wogglebug duet on the go after watching Make Noise's new video. Early days but a lot of fun. More of that later. There's also more of that last mentioned Quantussy pending in my Freesound queue. This is fun!
DeepSeaDriver
I put this together today

Soundcloud Link

Wasn't a terribly complicated patch, but there were uhh, a lot of cables.

It mostly comes from Marbles, with the kick and snare sound (combo of snare and erbe-verb with some envelopes on it) coming straight out of it in grids-like mode, with the bias (drum patterns) randomly modulated

The high hat (filtered noise, release modulated by a sloth) is random triggers and repeats from a varigate 4+ into a branches just to cut off some of the triggers

The bass is an osc and warps through wasp, mixed cv from an envelope and lfo to the cutoff, the vca is still a bit open so it drones, but the envelope will open from time to time off of the varigate. Sequenced by rene 2, adding in random voltage from the marbles, addac quantizer 'samples' the voltage whenever the env triggers

The "melody" is a bateleur getting fed voltages from Marbles, cutoff modulation, vibrato, and the envelope just opens and closes to let the legato through. Forgot what triggered it though...

The other sound is another output of Marbles into an osc through three sisters with the resonance cranked on formant using the all output, giving it some weird overtones. Cutoff is modulated and then I crosspatched the osc sine output into it's span control (i think)

everything goes into a wmd performance mixer with clouds (with random freezing and some other stuff going on) and disting ping pong as stereo returns.

Can get a little boring for 10 minutes, but i have some switches on the way that should help
cptnal
Nice one, DeepSeaDriver. It sounds like you enjoy audio chain shenanigans as much as I do. Do you use a matrix VCA/mixer? If not it'd be worth looking into. You might find something there that suits you. w00t


As promised, here's the pack of Quantussy snippets I mentioned earlier. Kinda "evolution of an idea"...

https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/packs/25755/
gis_sweden
DeepSeaDriver wrote:
I put this together today

Very nice drone work. Analog feeling.

cptnal wrote:
Quantussy pending in my Freesound queue

Black belt in Quantussy!
DeepSeaDriver
cptnal wrote:
Nice one, DeepSeaDriver. It sounds like you enjoy audio chain shenanigans as much as I do. Do you use a matrix VCA/mixer? If not it'd be worth looking into. You might find something there that suits you. w00t


Thanks! I have the standard Doepfer matrix mixer, but nothing voltage controlled right now. It's great when my hands are on the rack though.
gis_sweden
gis_sweden the programmer... Mr. Green
Made some adjustments and run some more iterations.
Even ordered a switch today applause
Same program as above.
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/456837/
JakoGreyshire
About the algorithms and rules thing you all were talking about earlier..

Have you all seen Dinko Klobucar's youtube videos? I wish he would make more videos...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CoyvGY74PE
oberdada
Pelsea wrote:
You see what I am getting at? Anything you can connect to the system is fair game. The point of algorithmic composition (as far as I am concerned) is you can compose something that will come out differently on each performance yet will remain the same piece.


Wonderful examples, although I don't find triggering events with popcorn or sonifying the ups and downs of finance prototypical cases of algorithmic composition. For me algorithmic composition is not so much about generating variety between performances of the same piece, as I usually write a fixed score or produce a fixed sound file to be played.

Pelsea wrote:

Non algorithmic composers just imagine what it should sound like and write it down.


Right, but when I use algorithms to compose music I do exactly the same thing, except I imagine the music, then figure out an algorithm, use it to generate a draft, listen to it, go back and modify the algorithm til it outputs something closer to my musical vision and so forth.

Pelsea wrote:

There are really two branches of algorithmic music these days-- one is sometimes called process music, where the notes follow a formula or some natural phenomenon, the other is artificial intelligence, where we use data mining or expert systems to produce something more traditional (That's actually a hot area-- a couple of my past students code algorithmic music to run in video games instead of those endless 16 bar loops.)


Yep, a very hot area in academia with its own conferences in musical metacreation, and I think they must have some dedicated journal by now. Flow machines even got some media attention with their Beatles pastische. Personally I find the other strand, what you call process music, much more interesting. But I suspect researchers want and need solid criteria for when their algorithms are successful or not, which boils down to how well they manage to simulate an existing style.
JakoGreyshire
Pelsea wrote:
Algorithms don't have to be code. I just happen to find that convenient because of the tools at my disposal. But there are many ways to do rule based composition. For instance:

Place a microphone close (not too close) to a popcorn popper. Run the signal through an envelope follower with trigger output to generate notes driven by the (Poisson distribution) pops of the corn.


I'm not trying to make a point here or anything, but this popcorn quote reminded me of this hourglass laser eurorack module:
Mr. Green

Pelsea
oberdada wrote:

Yep, a very hot area in academia with its own conferences in musical metacreation, and I think they must have some dedicated journal by now. Flow machines even got some media attention with their Beatles pastische. Personally I find the other strand, what you call process music, much more interesting. But I suspect researchers want and need solid criteria for when their algorithms are successful or not, which boils down to how well they manage to simulate an existing style.


Actually, Dave got into quite a controversy by writing code that would produce Bach, Mozart, etc. soundalikes that would convince listeners they were hearing the real thing. He'd play a couple of Chorales and have the audience vote on which was by Bach and which by Emmy. (He called his project EMI until some record company complained) Audiences of experienced musicologists consistently got it wrong.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/jul/11/david-cope-computer -composer
gis_sweden
Algorithmic modular music program (MAN2_2019).
01 to 08 are clock sequencer steps.

00 rem -------------- MAN2_2019 --------------
00 rem vco_1 sin through wave folder
00 rem vco_2 tri
00 rem vco_3 sqr through vcf
00 rem (vco_1, vco_2, vco_3) tuned to 130 Hz
00 rem rnd pitch cv from attenuated tri lfo
00 rem rnd cv from tri lfo
00 rem main clock (lfo_1) start frq 10 Hz
00 rem reset is tricky, trg -> short env -> reset
00 rem (noise) is noise through a lfo sweeped vcf
00 rem ---------------------------------------
01 rnd -> vca cv in (vco_1)
02 if (lfo_2 = high) then goto 01 [= reset]
03 rnd frq lfo_1 (run speed)
04 rnd fm mod (vco_1) with audio from (vco_2)
05 rnd -> vca cv in (vco_1, vco_2, vco_3): invert cv -> vca cv in (noise)
06 trg long env (vco_2): rnd pitch @ eoc (vco_2)
07 trg long env (vco_3): rnd pitch @ eoc (vco_3)
08 rnd -> wave folder (vco_1): rnd -> vcf (vco_3)
10 goto 01


What does this sound like? Dead Banana
https://freesound.org/s/457060/
https://freesound.org/s/457059/
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
Algorithmic modular music program (MAN2_2019).
01 to 08 are clock sequencer steps.

00 rem -------------- MAN2_2019 --------------
00 rem vco_1 sin through wave folder
00 rem vco_2 tri
00 rem vco_3 sqr through vcf
00 rem (vco_1, vco_2, vco_3) tuned to 130 Hz
00 rem rnd pitch cv from attenuated tri lfo
00 rem rnd cv from tri lfo
00 rem main clock (lfo_1) start frq 10 Hz
00 rem reset is tricky, trg -> short env -> reset
00 rem (noise) is noise through a lfo sweeped vcf
00 rem ---------------------------------------
01 rnd -> vca cv in (vco_1)
02 if (lfo_2 = high) then goto 01 [= reset]
03 rnd frq lfo_1 (run speed)
04 rnd fm mod (vco_1) with audio from (vco_2)
05 rnd -> vca cv in (vco_1, vco_2, vco_3): invert cv -> vca cv in (noise)
06 trg long env (vco_2): rnd pitch @ eoc (vco_2)
07 trg long env (vco_3): rnd pitch @ eoc (vco_3)
08 rnd -> wave folder (vco_1): rnd -> vcf (vco_3)
10 goto 01


What does this sound like? Dead Banana
https://freesound.org/s/457060/
https://freesound.org/s/457059/


Intriguing stuff. Did the parameters change between versions? I "prefer" the second recording, but maybe that's just because it happens to contain a random selection I find more pleasing... hmmm.....

What I would find interesting, if it's available, is MG link of your "computer"... thumbs up
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Intriguing stuff. Did the parameters change between versions?

"Intriguing". Much too kind. It's rather extreme eh... stuff. But interesting.
No, I did not change any parameters between the recordings. #generative

Now I will change order of two events in the program and see what happens.
Or just add an attenuverter to the patching of row 05. Between s/h and vca.
The program is not that detailed. An attenuverter does not change the code.

Next I will try to write a program with less extreme results...

My synth, sorry, computer - right now.
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/580306
A switch is on it's way! Will replace Dirt. Maybe I replace "Dual Full Wave Rectifier" with NLC "Jerk Off".
I have 3 X 84hp rows and 1 104hp row. Also some passive "modules" (ring mod, or, simple wave rectifier...).
An analog delay pedal is a part of my synth (dont know if it's true bbd....?).
What I really need to do is to inventory my components and start soldering... (more fun to patch) help
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
My synth, sorry, computer - right now.


That would drive me nuts. Nothing's where it should be. hihi

The A160/161 combo has been on and off my want list for a while. Once I get around to building my new case...
ikjoyce
Been trawling this thread - brilliant info in here, very inspiring!

Someone asked if anyone had done an entropical paradise patch - this was my attempt from 3 years ago- I need to revisit it I think:

http://soundcloud.com/ikjoyce/entropical-paradise-with-bird-call-after -douglas-leedy
cptnal
ikjoyce wrote:
Been trawling this thread - brilliant info in here, very inspiring!

Someone asked if anyone had done an entropical paradise patch - this was my attempt from 3 years ago- I need to revisit it I think:

[s]https://soundcloud.com/ikjoyce/entropical-paradise-with-bird-call-a fter-douglas-leedy[/s]


Yep, that was me. Few takers, but the concept at the heart of it has a lot of mileage.
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
That would drive me nuts. Nothing's where it should be. hihi

meh and the wrong modules...

Modular Algorithm No 2 v.2...
Some small changes. I have made comments in the code.
https://freesound.org/s/457156/
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
cptnal wrote:
That would drive me nuts. Nothing's where it should be. hihi

meh and the wrong modules...

Modular Algorithm No 2 v.2...
Some small changes. I have made comments in the code.
https://freesound.org/s/457156/


OK, so what's going on at [07]/[08]? Is that an If/Else thing? You could do that with one sequencer output, but it would be two lines of code. I think... hmmm.....
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
OK, so what's going on at [07]/[08]? Is that an If/Else thing? You could do that with one sequencer output, but it would be two lines of code. I think... hmmm.....


line 07 if the LFO sqr wave is positive then restet. Starts from line 01 again. It's a 50/50 chanse that happens.
line 08 is just a gate signal to ad and at the end of cycle a trigger fires to a s/h.
Can you elaborate your sequencer idea hmmm.....

Today my vc switch arrived. Why haven't I bought one before??? Made a quick patch with Jerk Off as engine.
Yep, back in my case again. I have missed this little chaos module.
https://freesound.org/s/457260/
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
Can you elaborate your sequencer idea hmmm.....


Oh, I haven't had any ideas this week - I've just been playing with my A110-4. w00t

What I meant was if you had one output of your sequencer doing one of two things, depending on another condition, that would be one line of your program, but would need two lines of computer code. No matter. Dead Banana
ziovinos
This is my first Self Generative patch.

Two asynchronous clocks are mixed with Triatt.
“Melody” comes from Lifeform's oscillator 2 (oscillator 2 - LPF - Magneto’s reverb)
Other chaotic timbres come from Lifeform's oscillator 1 (oscillator 1 - Morgasmatron - Magneto’s Delay)

Gear:
Expert Sleepers FH-2
Intellijel Quadra
Intellijel Triatt
Intellijel Morgasmatron
Strymon Magneto
Pittsburgh Modular Lifeforms SV-1
Intellijel Quad VCA



https://soundcloud.com/panos-volkov
cptnal
ziovinos wrote:
This is my first Self Generative patch.

Two asynchronous clocks are mixed with Triatt.
“Melody” comes from Lifeform's oscillator 2 (oscillator 2 - LPF - Magneto’s reverb)
Other chaotic timbres come from Lifeform's oscillator 1 (oscillator 1 - Morgasmatron - Magneto’s Delay)

Gear:
Expert Sleepers FH-2
Intellijel Quadra
Intellijel Triatt
Intellijel Morgasmatron
Strymon Magneto
Pittsburgh Modular Lifeforms SV-1
Intellijel Quad VCA



https://soundcloud.com/panos-volkov


Nice. cool

Lots going on with a seemingly small number of inputs. Looks like a lot of thought went into it.

(BTW, what happened to Batumi?)
ziovinos
cptnal wrote:
ziovinos wrote:
This is my first Self Generative patch.

Two asynchronous clocks are mixed with Triatt.
“Melody” comes from Lifeform's oscillator 2 (oscillator 2 - LPF - Magneto’s reverb)
Other chaotic timbres come from Lifeform's oscillator 1 (oscillator 1 - Morgasmatron - Magneto’s Delay)

Gear:
Expert Sleepers FH-2
Intellijel Quadra
Intellijel Triatt
Intellijel Morgasmatron
Strymon Magneto
Pittsburgh Modular Lifeforms SV-1
Intellijel Quad VCA



https://soundcloud.com/panos-volkov


Nice. cool

Lots going on with a seemingly small number of inputs. Looks like a lot of thought went into it.

(BTW, what happened to Batumi?)



Thanks cptnal cool
A lot of thought went into it yes (and a lot of luck too) whistlin'

Here's the sketch:

Batumi was send for service a month ago. it came back just yesterday.
Found you on soundcloud. Great work.
cptnal
ziovinos wrote:
Found you on soundcloud. Great work.


Most kind, thank you.

In my turn I've been admiring your pictures in the DIY cases thread. Looking forward to hearing more from it. thumbs up
ikonisk
Here is a patch using mainly Disting mk4 (set to dual euclidian), Rene and Wogglebug: Ikonisk - Ambient #1
gis_sweden
ziovinos wrote:
This is my first Self Generative patch...


I’m impressed. Nice old-school sound. You really managed to create a Krell without the most important ingredient. Or am I missing something here…? A classic Krell makes use of a cycling envelope where attack and decay are constantly modulated. But as I understand it you don’t have such a module???
Umcorps
A little late to the Marbles fan club. Thought I had its functionality covered so didn't pay much attention on release.

I was wrong.

cptnal
Marbles agnostic myself, so I'm curious...

I can see its benefit in a small (and still cute) system such as this, but what's missing in a larger system that Marbles can bring to the table (assuming this larger system has all the basic functions covered)? It's always struck me as taking the fun out of searching for methods and systems of building your own patch engine.

(And sweet tune, BTW.)
Umcorps
Well, you've really answered your own question.

I don't need Marbles in my main case - I can do everything it does and more in there. But the modules that takes up accounts for the best part of 180hp (with the matching price tag). Basically I've got a full row in there dedicated to creating generative CVs of various types.

Marbles needs 1/10th of the space (and a fraction of the price tag).

It's also a fantastic bit of design. It packs an incredible amount into a relatively small space. There's a lot of thought and experience been put into the design that makes itself very clear once you start digging in a bit. And, although I'm deliberately not doing that here, its very performance orientated.

Like I said, I was agnostic too. It was only the past month when I was doing some work for someone that involved me making demo patches in VCV that I started to use it there - basically as a quick and easy way to get some notes and gates to drive the demos.

I very quickly realised it was a lot deeper than I'd thought (guess there might be a reason why the Div Kid review video is > 1 hour) and that it was worth reworking the little system to incorporate one.

Which is also another good example of how open sourcing things continues to drive sales for Mutable Instruments. thumbs up
cptnal
Thanks for that. I always had the lingering fear that I might be missing something. If/when I get to thinking about a breakout rack I'll give it another look. Guinness ftw!
ziovinos
gis_sweden wrote:
ziovinos wrote:
This is my first Self Generative patch...


I’m impressed. Nice old-school sound. You really managed to create a Krell without the most important ingredient. Or am I missing something here…? A classic Krell makes use of a cycling envelope where attack and decay are constantly modulated. But as I understand it you don’t have such a module???


Thanks gis_sweden! That's right I don’t have such a module. I slightly modulated Lifeform's LPF with a very slow, asynchronous LFO, to achieve the "cycling envelope" effect:




https://soundcloud.com/panos-volkov[/quote]
gis_sweden
A simple way to generative music hihi Simple patch with Nonlinearcircuits Jerkoff as generative engine.
Controlling VCAs (no ADSR involved), pitch cv, cv to wave folder. I have a delay on one of the three voice.
No wiggling. No cv in to Jerkoff. Just chaos. I have a single Jerkoff. Don't know if you can buy them anymore... Maybe just quad jerkoffs.

The circuit is alive! zombie
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/459544/
gis_sweden
ziovinos wrote:
That's right I don’t have such a module....

I think we posted at the same time lol
Very clever patch. Very "modular". Finding new ways and solutions. I really like your modular. Nice selection of modules! Elegant. thumbs up
cptnal
Looked it up. The "jerk" equation sounds interesting. This merits further research... Driving
tardishead
cptnal wrote:
Looked it up. The "jerk" equation sounds interesting. This merits further research... Driving


Wow I love your latest tune!
sounds like a alien Ennio Moricone
care to talk about your patch? Forgive me if you have done so already
cptnal
tardishead wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Looked it up. The "jerk" equation sounds interesting. This merits further research... Driving


Wow I love your latest tune!
sounds like a alien Ennio Moricone
care to talk about your patch? Forgive me if you have done so already


Gosh! Thank you. Guinness ftw!

Broadly it's pretty simple. The drone is Telharmonic plus Morphagene running a sample of music from Sakhalin island. The melody is apropos to this thread because it's Krell-based - a self-cycling function with fall time modulated by a sample and hold. The sample and hold also dictates the pitch. I'm using Maths as a complex envelope which also controls the rate and depth of the tremolo. I think I used the STO for that one. Lastly, the screeching noise is a BIA into a Chronoblob with a Wasp filter in the feedback path. The frequency of the Wasp is enveloped to keep it just on the good side of runaway feedback. Now that I come to describe it it doesn't sound that simple after all. Dead Banana

And I've been having a look at jerk physics and the Jerkoff module. Reminds me of the Wogglebug in parts. But there was something in the description of jerk physics, or rather preventing jerks, that got me thinking about equilibrium and then onto phase locked loops as a source of modulation rather than audio. Meditate on this I shall... Om
NiteEagle
cptnal wrote:
Looked it up. The "jerk" equation sounds interesting. This merits further research... Driving


Nonlinear Circuits has a full suite of chaotic choices.

Triple Sloth
Hypster
Hyperchaos Deluxe
Brain Custard (built as the LFO version it is great for random FM of VCOs when modulated by a Triple Sloth)
Spasm
etc

Much to explore...

See the bottom row of my system.
cptnal
NiteEagle wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Looked it up. The "jerk" equation sounds interesting. This merits further research... Driving


Nonlinear Circuits has a full suite of chaotic choices.

Triple Sloth
Hypster
Hyperchaos Deluxe
Brain Custard (built as the LFO version it is great for random FM of VCOs when modulated by a Triple Sloth)
Spasm
etc

Much to explore...

See the bottom row of my system.


Thanks, NiteEagle. thumbs up

I find it interesting to imagine how I might patch this kind of functionality, or at least understand how it's done. I rarely get there, but in the process I end up in places I wouldn't otherwise have gone.
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
And I've been having a look at jerk physics and the Jerkoff module. Reminds me of the Wogglebug in parts. But there was something in the description of jerk physics, or rather preventing jerks, that got me thinking about equilibrium....

I made an unbelievable boring recording of a simple patch controlled by jerkoff. It's a fun module but you never know what you get and how to get there... Is it in an equilibrium-ish state or will something happen?
https://freesound.org/s/459567/
9 minutes of jerking -> 16 minutes of equilibrium -> 15 minutes of jerking... eek!
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
cptnal wrote:
And I've been having a look at jerk physics and the Jerkoff module. Reminds me of the Wogglebug in parts. But there was something in the description of jerk physics, or rather preventing jerks, that got me thinking about equilibrium....

I made an unbelievable boring recording of a simple patch controlled by jerkoff. It's a fun module but you never know what you get and how to get there... Is it in an equilibrium-ish state or will something happen?
https://freesound.org/s/459567/
9 minutes of jerking -> 16 minutes of equilibrium -> 15 minutes of jerking... eek!


I'll be honest - I didn't listen to the whole thing. oops
gis_sweden
Today I have made generative fan music.
More noise than music?
LFOs are your best friend thumbs up
I'm using Doepfer A-147-2, A-147, BMC 2LFOSH, Bastl Instruments Tromsø, NLC Sloth and jerkoff and Pittsburgh Modular LFO2 eek!
[s]http://bit.ly/2O2XMP4[/s]
P.S. Notice the panning Mr. Green I have built Barton Musical Circuits 4 Quadrant Multiplier and Panner w00t
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
More noise than music?


I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. cool

Thanks for the pointer. Never heard of patzr radio before. I like. And you get pretty close with your version. thumbs up
cptnal
So I treated myself to a step sequencer (Ladik S180/181) and thought I'd have a go at gis_sweden's computer program idea.

Here we have a Disting Mk4's TZFM algorithm split into two sample and holds for sample-rate reduction, panned left and right. The program is nine sample and holds (11 in one patch is a personal best) fed the same LFO and triggered by each "line" coming from the step sequencer and a clock divider, and each controlling a parameter of the patch. The script is in the sound's description...

https://freesound.org/people/cptnal/sounds/466222/
3hands
Oh I’m excited about this thread. Will be posting something g up once I get more patchcords (oops).
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
So I treated myself to a step sequencer (Ladik S180/181) and thought I'd have a go at gis_sweden's computer program idea.

applause
A step sequencer is a must! I believe you have had another language in mind when describing your patch (script at freesound!). I love the old school feeling.
But I have tried another way of sequencing events, Using comparators. Works fine. Unlimited modulation capabilities! w00t
I made a patch generating short drones. All drones have the same structure and length. A triangle LFO and 2 comparators forms the heart of the patch. A perfect task for a modular synth - generating drones.

zengomi
At long last, I've made a self-generating patch. It's the first piece I've done in nearly 6 months. Weirdly, it came about on the day we all learned about Mike. Thus the title, "Lamentation".

I was so excited with the result that I quickly added it to my Soundcloud, Bandcamp, and MW sig. This morning, I remastered it to tame some of the high end.

Incidentally, the next day, I made another piece, "Threnody", which is not purely self-generating. It started off with that in mind, but I could not resist adding more during the recording. It's at my Soundcloud and Bandcamp.
cptnal
Interesting stuff, zengomi would you describe what's going on in the patch?

gis_sweden, also check out the Ladik Derivator. I have one right next to my comparator for exactly the reason you describe.

And somehow I managed to have your "generating" video running at the same time as your "from inner balance" video. Sounded rather lovely. thumbs up

Oh, and the programming language is C#, just because that's what I'm familiar with. If you'd asked ten years ago it would have been in Visual Basic. Mr. Green
colb
I thought I'd have a go myself after reading a lot of this thread. Results are 'interesting'. Probably worth more investigation, but I still need to develop a better intuition about finding the interesting parts of the feedback chaos.

I'd like to find ways to get more variety in the timbre, but without just building a voice with lots of modulation options to tweak it - instead have the timbre variation 'fall out' of the feedback chaos... A bit like bytebeats.

Here's my first attempt:

[s]https://soundcloud.com/colray/mutated-bassoon[/s]
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
gis_sweden, also check out the Ladik Derivator. I have one right next to my comparator for exactly the reason you describe.

Derivator... What does that thing do? I used the combination comparator and slew in my patch. An ADSR or a sample and hold reacts at both ends of the comparators square wave. So use slew with EOC thumbs up Lets not forget envelope followers. When I think of it, my favourite modules are relatively cheap. Attenuverter, mixer, comparator, LFO, S/H... "action modules".
And srsly never
cptnal
The Derivator is a slope detector. You get gates when the input is rising or falling, moving or stationary. And funnily enough, it's right next to my envelope follower. thumbs up

And nice track colb. I think I spotted a Chronoblob or similar doing some held delays... hmmm.....
colb
cptnal wrote:
...And nice track colb. I think I spotted a Chronoblob or similar doing some held delays... hmmm.....


Thanks for the encouragement smile

The delay is from Disting Mk3. It's the one of the clockable ones - changes it's time without pitch changes. This gives interesting results because it varies from longish delays to _almost_ karplus or granular sounding audio rate repeats.

Rest of the patch was based on two inter-Modulating LFO's, sample and hold, and the comparator part of Rampage to generate the sample clock for the sample and hold.... there was some quantization in there as well... a doepfer oscillator and two adsrs from my a-143-2... and a filter.
colb
I had another go today at a generative chaos type of thing. Seemed to go better this time - at least more like what I was aiming at.
This is built around Rampage using a twin S&H and three clock dividers. There's also a Deopfer Basic VCO a couple of VCA's a couple of filters and the verb from my Behringer mixer.

[s]https://soundcloud.com/colray/chaos-of-mechanical-origin[/s]
cptnal
colb wrote:
I had another go today at a generative chaos type of thing. Seemed to go better this time - at least more like what I was aiming at.
This is built around Rampage using a twin S&H and three clock dividers. There's also a Deopfer Basic VCO a couple of VCA's a couple of filters and the verb from my Behringer mixer.

[s]https://soundcloud.com/colray/chaos-of-mechanical-origin[/s]


applause Very Krellish!
colb
I documented the patch from my last post before I tear it down, so I figured I'd post it in case anyone is interested.
I don't expect it matters what kind of vca's are used. It's primarily about the rampage, s&h and multiple clock dividers. Some of the sound is from the A-106-6 self oscillating and from the Doefer VCO, but they are slave devices in this structure...

cptnal
colb wrote:
I documented the patch from my last post before I tear it down, so I figured I'd post it in case anyone is interested.
I don't expect it matters what kind of vca's are used. It's primarily about the rampage, s&h and multiple clock dividers. Some of the sound is from the A-106-6 self oscillating and from the Doefer VCO, but they are slave devices in this structure...



Very nice! thumbs up

I think I have equivalents of all of those, but I'll have to do some work to map it over. If I get anywhere I'll post the results here.

This is fun!

...and we're back.

I had to watch DivKid's video on the Rampage to work out what was going on. Mr. Green

Two slope detectors - very cool. Unfortunately I only have one, so I improvised the gates from Maths' end-of-whatever. I was also somewhat lacking in the clock divider department, so I used a step sequencer and René (with a single gate on the 16th measure) as the second and third.

I found a sine from the synched oscillator to be more satisfying than a square, and for the filter I'm using the Stereo Dipole, which is in everything since I got it. Bit of delay on one of the voices in the last clip.

So my patch isn't exactly the same as yours, but I had a whole lot of fun trying. Guinness ftw!

[s]http://soundcloud.com/cptnal/mechanical-origins-1[/s]
[s]http://soundcloud.com/cptnal/mechanical-origins-2[/s]
 [s]http://soundcloud.com/cptnal/mechanical-origins-3[/s]
colb
cptnal wrote:

I think I have equivalents of all of those, but I'll have to do some work to map it over. If I get anywhere I'll post the results here.

This is fun!

...and we're back.

I had to watch DivKid's video on the Rampage to work out what was going on. Mr. Green

Two slope detectors - very cool. Unfortunately I only have one, so I improvised the gates from Maths' end-of-whatever. I was also somewhat lacking in the clock divider department, so I used a step sequencer and René (with a single gate on the 16th measure) as the second and third.

I found a sine from the synched oscillator to be more satisfying than a square, and for the filter I'm using the Stereo Dipole, which is in everything since I got it. Bit of delay on one of the voices in the last clip.

So my patch isn't exactly the same as yours, but I had a whole lot of fun trying. Guinness ftw!



Very nice, particularly the third one - lots of interesting variation.

I seem to have a bit of a thing for clock dividers smile. It's pretty interesting - at least philosophically - to be able to divide an audio rate signal right down to the compositional time scale using two or three of them in series.
I like the doepfer A169-2, it has a primes mode with 2,3,5,7,11 & 13. I was using 5 and 7. It probably doesn't make a lot of difference, but it does add some geek value.
cptnal
Inspired by the Serge Divide-N COM...

Batumi in divide mode
Channel 1's square goes into a sample and hold's trigger ("N")
Channel 2's triangle goes into the sample and hold's input ("divide by N")
Output of the sample and hold goes into:
a) Attenuation for pitch
b) Ladik Derivator to generate a trigger at every "step"
Trigger pings a dual-peak filter whose pitch comes from (a)
The frequency of N and the number of divisions are modulated with random, independent sample and holds

A proof of concept, rather than a "track":
[s]http://soundcloud.com/cptnal/divide-by-b1[/s]

Same patch with quantization, FM, and a bit of delay:
[s]http://soundcloud.com/cptnal/divide-by-b2[/s]
JakoGreyshire
I just wanted to say that I'm glad the topic of this thread is labeled "Self-Generative"......

I've been seeing people talk about generative this and that and it means different things to different people...

An example is this youtuber.... I messaged him asking what he means by generative, because most of his modular stuff is labeled as Generative... I did not get a response...


This video here is labeled both generative and improvisation....






Then I think that I even heard Lightbath say "generative" in the way that things evolve by itself... etc...

So I looked up the word generative...

adjective:
relating to or capable of production or reproduction: the generative power of the life force.


So anything capable of production can be generative.....

So, this guy in the video above is technically correct in his labeling... his synths and computers are generating sounds and he is improvising what controls he makes...


I guess the lesson I learned here is that I will try to be as clear as possible when I speak descriptions and I will be more flexible when other use descriptions...


I guess I 'm posting this here because I hit these videos, which are great, by this guy thinking I was getting into some self-generative stuff.... I't made me think of this awesome thread... Then I was dissapointed that I didn't get any self generative sounds...

I subbed to him anyway...

confused
Neo
JakoGreyshire wrote:
...

So I looked up the word generative...

adjective:
relating to or capable of production or reproduction: the generative power of the life force.

I like this definition from wikipedia:

Brian Eno used and coined the term "Generative Music" to describe any music that is ever-different and changing, created by a system. The term has since gone on to be used to refer to a wide range of music, from entirely random music mixes created by multiple simultaneous CD playback, through to live rule-based computer composition.
wackelpeter
Broadly narrowed down for simplification, almost all of my patches are self-generating, as i almost never or rarely touch a pot or switch when i play them. I only dial in the desired range and then let it go… The only Thing i touch is whenever i have some spare free time and the urge to do so is my Keyboard, mostly just transposing one of my generative patches.

Well there is some acute lazyness on the side of the human Operator interface in my case (mostly due to the fact, that i can't play properly on a Keyboard and secondly i destroyed many patches while trying to optimize them)

As in general over 90% of my patches are done this way i would like to call them some kind of automated music. Self generating they become, in terms of major changes to their character/sound when i add a certain amount of "unpredictable" variables like s&h and chaos Generator modules.
If asked, i would say i'm not sure how much of change would be needed to not just call it generative, automatic music and instead call it something with a chaotic/self-generating vibe.
I guess that's a floating definition which each one would tend to Interpret slightly different, depending on his personal preferences.

But anyway this is one of my favourite threads here on muffs, lot of great ideas and Things to try out. Keep it coming ladies and gentlemen. smile
pugix
wackelpeter wrote:
Broadly narrowed down for simplification, almost all of my patches are self-generating, as i almost never or rarely touch a pot or switch when i play them. I only dial in the desired range and then let it go… The only Thing i touch is whenever i have some spare free time and the urge to do so is my Keyboard, mostly just transposing one of my generative patches.

Well there is some acute lazyness on the side of the human Operator interface in my case (mostly due to the fact, that i can't play properly on a Keyboard and secondly i destroyed many patches while trying to optimize them)

As in general over 90% of my patches are done this way i would like to call them some kind of automated music. Self generating they become, in terms of major changes to their character/sound when i add a certain amount of "unpredictable" variables like s&h and chaos Generator modules.
If asked, i would say i'm not sure how much of change would be needed to not just call it generative, automatic music and instead call it something with a chaotic/self-generating vibe.
I guess that's a floating definition which each one would tend to Interpret slightly different, depending on his personal preferences.

But anyway this is one of my favourite threads here on muffs, lot of great ideas and Things to try out. Keep it coming ladies and gentlemen. smile


I like to call my generative stuff 'automatic music', though I don't like either of those terms very much. I don't know what to call it.

For quite a few years, as I had been doing this sort of thing, I had mixed feelings about it. Was I being lazy? Self-critical of my improvisations? Feeling too much the urge to tweak during a listening? Well, now I've decided that this is what I do: no-hands-on generative, automatic sounds. And, as a result of this, I've been spending more time patching, tweaking, and then listening for longer periods (at least ten minutes) between tweaks. And I work on a composition for sometimes weeks, before I feel it's ready to present. I make recordings while I'm working on something, but those are not the product. The composition can only be heard live. (I'll be presenting a few of them in a public venue in a couple of weeks.)
wackelpeter
pugix wrote:


I like to call my generative stuff 'automatic music', though I don't like either of those terms very much. I don't know what to call it.

For quite a few years, as I had been doing this sort of thing, I had mixed feelings about it. Was I being lazy? Self-critical of my improvisations? Feeling too much the urge to tweak during a listening? Well, now I've decided that this is what I do: no-hands-on generative, automatic sounds. And, as a result of this, I've been spending more time patching, tweaking, and then listening for longer periods (at least ten minutes) between tweaks. And I work on a composition for sometimes weeks, before I feel it's ready to present. I make recordings while I'm working on something, but those are not the product. The composition can only be heard live. (I'll be presenting a few of them in a public venue in a couple of weeks.)


Well i don't often record and don't perform aynthing in public, but otherwise i would say this Comes close to what i think/feel/do...

One interesting Thing is, that i have a great love for "experimental" music but in most cases catch myself while patching up rather "normal" beat orientated stuff. Though it's all automated, via switches, s&h, and variable slope lengths, different divisions to trigger those, etc. but it still resembles your average beat orientated electronic music somehow. Did also more recently something, more like a Sketch, using mainly the master Clock and it's divisions plus a self oscillating filter as Sound source, which wold have been possibly okay if done properly.
And yesterday i made some of my attempts to perform on my Keyboard and realized again, that i'm only a wizzard of missed notes and keys… Coordination of my fingers and musical intution isn't one of my strengths, so i'll better stick with the synth doing this for me, while Relaxing with a glass of wine, smoking a cigarette (these are some of my bigger talents) and let the System do all the hard work for me... hihi
cptnal
Less talk, more patching. Mr. Green

Here we have two TZFM oscillators, each fed a 4-note sequence clocked by a cycling function. The outgoing audio is divided way down and clocks another function which modulates the first two. Audio and CV are both fed into my shiny new A138m and distributed around the patch.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/cptnal/matrices[/s]
pugix
cptnal wrote:
Less talk, more patching. Mr. Green

Here we have two TZFM oscillators, each fed a 4-note sequence clocked by a cycling function. The outgoing audio is divided way down and clocks another function which modulates the first two. Audio and CV are both fed into my shiny new A138m and distributed around the patch.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/cptnal/matrices[/s]


Interesting type of feedback, having the audio divided down. How did you do that division?
cptnal
pugix wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Less talk, more patching. Mr. Green

Here we have two TZFM oscillators, each fed a 4-note sequence clocked by a cycling function. The outgoing audio is divided way down and clocks another function which modulates the first two. Audio and CV are both fed into my shiny new A138m and distributed around the patch.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/cptnal/matrices[/s]


Interesting type of feedback, having the audio divided down. How did you do that division?


I actually got the idea from colb's patch above. What I'm doing is taking the audio and running it through as many dividers as I can lay my hands on (sometimes employing the last output of trigger sequencers) to get gates well into the sub-audio range. The end result is more triggers when the pitch is high and fewer when it's low.

(Now that I come to describe it like that, I wonder whether there's an easier way to achieve this... hmmm..... )
colb
cptnal wrote:
Less talk, more patching. Mr. Green

Here we have two TZFM oscillators...


Very cool. a bit brassy, a bit whalesong...
colb
cptnal wrote:

I actually got the idea from colb's patch above. What I'm doing is taking the audio and running it through as many dividers as I can lay my hands on (sometimes employing the last output of trigger sequencers) to get gates well into the sub-audio range. The end result is more triggers when the pitch is high and fewer when it's low.

(Now that I come to describe it like that, I wonder whether there's an easier way to achieve this... hmmm..... )


One motivation for this approach was the idea of trying to achieve something similar to bytebeat processes, but in an analogue system. The basic concept is that there is no literal distinction between sound cycles, notes, 'song' structure... Just a difference in scale. Ideally the result would be some form of sound that exhibits self-similarity at different scales (haven't got there yet. might not even be possible).
In bytebeats it's achieved by shifting, masking, adding, and performing various other bitwise operations and 2's complement arithmetic on a 16 or 32 bit counter, and outputting the lowest 8 bits as an audio stream.
The only way I could think of to generate a process with a similar multi-level temporal scaling thing was to use clock dividers.

There might be an easier way to achieve some of the results, but the nice thing about multiple dividers is that you can use any/all of the different outputs at different time scales to effect the output.

I suspect that there could be some mileage in applying logic operations and switching to the divider outputs in the feedback path. I have a logic module, but it's currently out of action, so I need to get that up and running and do some more experiments.
pugix
colb wrote:
cptnal wrote:

I actually got the idea from colb's patch above. What I'm doing is taking the audio and running it through as many dividers as I can lay my hands on (sometimes employing the last output of trigger sequencers) to get gates well into the sub-audio range. The end result is more triggers when the pitch is high and fewer when it's low.

(Now that I come to describe it like that, I wonder whether there's an easier way to achieve this... hmmm..... )


One motivation for this approach was the idea of trying to achieve something similar to bytebeat processes, but in an analogue system. The basic concept is that there is no literal distinction between sound cycles, notes, 'song' structure... Just a difference in scale. Ideally the result would be some form of sound that exhibits self-similarity at different scales (haven't got there yet. might not even be possible).


What's bytebeat?

Mannequins Just Friends is a module designed with the idea to relate audio and control signals in similar structures at different scales.

Another approach to getting triggers with rate proportionate to an audio frequency would be to use a pitch-to-voltage converter on the audio to control an LFO. I don't know offhand of a specific pitch-to-voltage converter module though.
colb
pugix wrote:

What's bytebeat?

This is a reasonably good introduction:
http://canonical.org/~kragen/bytebeat/
cptnal
colb wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Less talk, more patching. Mr. Green

Here we have two TZFM oscillators...


Very cool. a bit brassy, a bit whalesong...


Thanks for the feedback. Guinness ftw!

And speaking of feedback (see what I did there? hihi ), here's another one I'd like to share...

Probably a no-brainer to anyone who owns these modules, but I've just got myself a A138m and am wondering how I got along for so long without one. I may buy another. w00t

Take the sines from Batumi and put them into the inputs of the A138m
Take the outputs of the A138m into the FM of each channel of Batumi
Batumi's variable shape outputs can modulate around your patch
Batumi's square outs into another mixer and off to a quantizer for pitch

A pretty simple patch, but quite efficient in the variety you can get for so few basic ingredients. This is fun!

Right now I have Telharmonic going into Stereo Dipole into Morphagene, and I'm too blissed out to post it on SoundCloud. Lotsa Love
pugix
I took automatic music out to let people listen.
http://pugix.com/synth/presenting-automatic-music/

cptnal
pugix wrote:
I took automatic music out to let people listen.
http://pugix.com/synth/presenting-automatic-music/



Thanks for posting. I enjoyed that greatly. thumbs up
gis_sweden
pugix wrote:
I took automatic music out to let people

I'm listening now. Thank you It's peanut butter jelly time!
colb
This one's a bit more musical.

The core is two Doepfer oscs (osc1 = 110-2 and osc 2 = 110-1), Osc 2 is synced to Osc 1, then its output is inverted (with some offset) and sampled using an S&H triggered by osc 1. The resulting value is Quantised and used as the pitch CV for osc1. The pitch CV for osc 2 comes from a quantized sampled LFO (rampage).

The triggers for the sample and holds come from heavily divided down osc1 output.

So basically, a feedback system. There is some filtering, Envelopes, and a Disting delay for some added texture...

[s]https://soundcloud.com/colray/as-it-unfolds[/s]
cptnal
colb wrote:
This one's a bit more musical.

The core is two Doepfer oscs (osc1 = 110-2 and osc 2 = 110-1), Osc 2 is synced to Osc 1, then its output is inverted (with some offset) and sampled using an S&H triggered by osc 1. The resulting value is Quantised and used as the pitch CV for osc1. The pitch CV for osc 2 comes from a quantized sampled LFO (rampage).

The triggers for the sample and holds come from heavily divided down osc1 output.

So basically, a feedback system. There is some filtering, Envelopes, and a Disting delay for some added texture...

[s]https://soundcloud.com/colray/as-it-unfolds[/s]


Me likey lots. applause

I'm going to put this little system on my Things To Try. Patched me up a monster last night, which will probably keep me occupied for a few days. Right now I'm deep in matrix mixer territory. something wonderful
colb
cptnal wrote:

Me likey lots. applause


Thanks!

Here's a short generative track based on the same core patch. This time the tempo is fixed rather than divided down from the audio.

The basic concept is trying to fake a pitch detector and apply it to the output of one oscillator and use the result on the other. Because it doesn't really work, the results are somewhat chaotic and organic. Of course, after that, I usually start patching semi-random feedback lines and tweaking them adding quantization etc. until I like the sound...

My original idea was that if you have a ramp wave at a fixed frequency, and sync it at the reset of the waveform your are trying to track, and sample the amplitude of the fixed waveform at that time (of a fraction before), then the voltage will depend on the frequency of the signal you are tracking.

It does kind of work, but the outputs of the Doepfer oscillators I'm using are AC coupled, so the first time the tracked pitch changes, you get a reasonably appropriate sampled voltage, but then the output of the fixed frequency wave settles around DC, and the voltage normalises itself.
I've also tried with an LFO and a couple of different function generators, with equally variable and unpredictable results smile

[s]https://soundcloud.com/colray/the-weight-you-bear[/s]
colb
I've refined my pitch tracking idea a bit, and also worked out how to patch up a shift register using my Rampage and a sample and hold. Results worked quite well.
This is all still based on a feedback process through a quantizer and sample and holds. There's no sequencing or randomness.

Using the rampage to generate the trigger delays for the Shift register has a nice consequence - the delays can be lengthened allowing the shifting of the pitches through the register to be staggered.

[s]https://soundcloud.com/colray/an-orthogonal-dependency[/s]
tardishead
This is really amazing
Not many self generating patches I’ve heard have any emotional effect but this one definitely does.
Would you mind dumbing it right down for me and explain it in as universal terms as possible. I find eurorack a bit mystifying. I don’t know what Rampage is but I have plenty of VC Slope modules - is like that?
Is it a hard or soft sync at the base of your patch?
colb
tardishead wrote:
This is really amazing
Not many self generating patches I’ve heard have any emotional effect but this one definitely does.
Would you mind dumbing it right down for me and explain it in as universal terms as possible. I find eurorack a bit mystifying. I don’t know what Rampage is but I have plenty of VC Slope modules - is like that?
Is it a hard or soft sync at the base of your patch?


Thanks very much. I'll have a go at explaining what's going on.

There are a few components to the patch, but the main ones are a feedback loop that generates the pitch CV, and an Analog shift register.

The pitch part takes the output of an oscillator and processes it to generate a voltage that is in inverse proportion to the pitch. It's also imprecise, and also wraps, so if the input pitch gets too low, the output goes low again and vice versa...

This value is sampled and delayed, then used to generate the next pitch (or a pitch for a different oscillator...) either way it creates a contrary motion so each pitch is related to the last, but also has some chaotic behaviour at some settings due to the imprciseness of the process. It is also fed through a pitch quantiser so the pitches are from a specific scale or chord depending on the setting.

The shift register is a bit like a delay, but it delays the pitch CV rather than the actual audio. It has three outputs, and each one gets the value the previous one had on the last clock tick. The interesting bit is that each one is connected to a different oscillator with a different setting, so the same CV value won't necessarily generate the same note or timbre from the different oscillators. I also delayed each shuffle step of this delay to get a cascade effect - the new notes are sent to the oscillators in sequence rather than all at the same time on the clock tick.

So basically you get pitches that are related inversely to the one before due to the feedback system, and also each oscillator gets a pitch that another oscillator was just using (except the first one of course... and all the notes come from the same chord or scale... So there are multiple temporal and harmonic relationships between them. Our brains like those sorts of things.

The time is also broken up because I modulated the clock driving the whole thing using a division of its own output. This creates a very slow type of shuffle, so the meter of the track swings a bit in an interesting way.

The oscillators are mixed, and then put through the same filter set hot enough to create a little saturation. As they are sines and a triangle, they also create extra 'beat' frequencies. All these frequencies pushed through a saturating filter with some slow frequency modulation gives a really nice (IMO) texture and timbre. It swells and pulses, and sounds kind of natural... Sometimes the frequencies are very high, sometimes very low, and these interact in interesting ways when process through the filter as well.

I also grabbed another output of one of the filters to create another sound that plays fairly short, then echoes away - and as this is from one of the oscillators in the existing process, it's also part of the same harmonic system.

Finally, just playing with it and tweaking all the parameters until it starts to sound nice.
tardishead
colb wrote:
This one's a bit more musical.

The core is two Doepfer oscs (osc1 = 110-2 and osc 2 = 110-1), Osc 2 is synced to Osc 1, then its output is inverted (with some offset) and sampled using an S&H triggered by osc 1. The resulting value is Quantised and used as the pitch CV for osc1. The pitch CV for osc 2 comes from a quantized sampled LFO (rampage).

The triggers for the sample and holds come from heavily divided down osc1 output.



OK I think I'm starting to get it. Is it still based on the above earlier patch description?
So the VCO2 output is sampled with a S&H triggered by VCO1 heavily divided down correct? Also are you using the audio of VCO2 as well as VCO1 in the mix not just as a modifier?

And so with this latest patch how many VCOs are you using? And are they controlled by a shift register triggered by divided down VCO1 instead of a S&H. I'm familiar with shift registers but not sure where it comes in the patch.

Can you show us a basic patch diagram with the names of modules as to their function not their product name?
colb
tardishead wrote:
I don’t know what Rampage is but I have plenty of VC Slope modules - is like that?

Yes, it's a bit like a Maths.

I'm not using the slopes for the ASR though. The rampage has gate outputs for rise and fall, and a trigger output for End Of Cycle, so If you send a trigger to the trigger input and set the channel to the fastest speed, and rise and fall times to minimum, then each input trigger generates a delayed trigger (gate really) at the 'FALLING' output, and another after that at the 'EOC' output both with tiny almost imperceptible delays. So with one channel of Rampage, I can generate two staggered triggers. These can then be used to trigger sample and hold modules sequentially, so they pass their value to the next stage before their own value is updated...

Obviously it would be easier to just use an ASR module, but I don't have one of those smile

Here's the basic ASR patch using a sequencer into the ASR, driving three oscillators:
colb
tardishead wrote:

OK I think I'm starting to get it. Is it still based on the above earlier patch description?
So the VCO2 output is sampled with a S&H triggered by VCO1 heavily divided down correct? Also are you using the audio of VCO2 as well as VCO1 in the mix not just as a modifier?

And so with this latest patch how many VCOs are you using? And are they controlled by a shift register triggered by divided down VCO1 instead of a S&H. I'm familiar with shift registers but not sure where it comes in the patch.

Can you show us a basic patch diagram with the names of modules as to their function not their product name?


I'm not using the divided down VCO as the clock in this one. I'm using an LFO square wave output as a clock, with it's frequency modulated by a divided down version of it's own ouput. This is like a very slow shuffle - which is why there are pauses in the tune as chords are held.

I am using a VCO and the other half of the Rampage(dual ramp generator - using the ramp this time) as a bad pitch detector. I'm not using the audio out of this osc for audio - I found that the pitch that it works best at is too high. So I sent the same pitch CV into another Doepfer osc. and the other two outputs from the ASR into sine oscillators. So in total I'm using four VCOs, one as part of the pitch processing loop, and the other three as voices.

I'll probably notate this patch using modular grid at some point. If I get around to that, I'll post a pic.

It might be that the bad pitch detector part is unnecessary, and it will work just as well or better using a scaled inverted delayed sample of the input pitch directly. But I got here by the route I did. So I just stuck with it smile
tardishead
ok still confused about some of the particulars.
I'll wait to see a patch diagram if you can
thanks for sharing
jarnold90
Here's my current set-up: https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_816058.jpg

I've only been into modular for 8 months or so, and, against sound advice, I added modules quickly. I've ended up with some self-generating patches, primarily using the wobblebug and feedback generated by running L output of the DSP into the R.

Just hoping to get the opinions of more experienced folks on how I can approach this set-up. Also, I welcome any critique of the modules I've assembled - any glaring omissions, redundancies (other than the obvious 2 black EG's).

Thanks. This is my first post to go easy.
tardishead
ok I cracked it. I was overcomplicating it. I thought that the last 3 patches were based on the same exact engine. I was not tracking your journey. Its a great technique. Especially with the use of the shuffle and ASR.
sduck
jarnold90 wrote:
Here's my current set-up: https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_816058.jpg

Just hoping to get the opinions of more experienced folks on how I can approach this set-up. Also, I welcome any critique of the modules I've assembled - any glaring omissions, redundancies.


Welcome! This kind of "rate my rack" type of post is usually best posted in the forum of the relevant format, which in this case would be the Eurorack forum, where you'll get the best reponses. So, try it again over there.
gis_sweden
I'm rebuilding and downsizing my synth. Which modules should I keep. Doepfer A-124 WASP, is that a keeper or not? Maybe I keep it, but not in the starting eleven? After some weeks without inspiration I made this bassoon bagatelle. I'm using the WASP filter... Not for 'the bassoon' but still its a good filter! hihi
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/475930/

The synth I want looks like this https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/926258
The two top rows is one case. The mixer is in another small one. The big case also have some passive functions (ring mod, mult and or). This synth is two DIY modules and a A-190-2 away. And selling the rest. I'm working on that. 1hp free on each row. This is an analog synth for generative atonal strangeness. Nobody have to rate my synth...

jarnold90 wrote:
Here's my current set-up:

You have a good looking synth. For me, important modules are LFOs, VCAs, attenuverters, mixers and sample and holds. These are the engine.
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
I'm rebuilding and downsizing my synth. Which modules should I keep. Doepfer A-124 WASP, is that a keeper or not? Maybe I keep it, but not in the starting eleven? After some weeks without inspiration I made this bassoon bagatelle. I'm using the WASP filter... Not for 'the bassoon' but still its a good filter! hihi
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/475930/

The synth I want looks like this https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/926258
The two top rows is one case. The mixer is in another small one. The big case also have some passive functions (ring mod, mult and or). This synth is two DIY modules and a A-190-2 away. And selling the rest. I'm working on that. 1hp free on each row. This is an analog synth for generative atonal strangeness. Nobody have to rate my synth...

jarnold90 wrote:
Here's my current set-up:

You have a good looking synth. For me, important modules are LFOs, VCAs, attenuverters, mixers and sample and holds. These are the engine.


What strikes me about this rack, from a self-generating point of view, is that you've chosen modulators that are interesting in themselves. They're each probably a lot of fun, but I don't see them forming part of a larger whole. Their inner workings aren't exposed to you to explore and hack.

What I think you'd enjoy is more of the simple things. I'm talking dividers, switches, envelope followers, logic... It makes the rack bigger, but you have more possibilities to explore. As an exercise you might try to recreate the functionality of one of those modulators from scratch yourself, using just simple building-block modules.

Of course I'm just assuming you don't have these already and have chosen to leave them out of the new setup... hmmm.....
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
What strikes me about this rack, from a self-generating point of view, is that you've chosen modulators that are interesting in themselves. They're each probably a lot of fun, but I don't see them forming part of a larger whole. Their inner workings aren't exposed to you to explore and hack.

Thanks for your input. You are right. A smaller synth leads to compromises. I have chosen to build the synth around chaos modules. There will be a lot of patches I cant do. Bye bye 5 cell quantussy patch. Having these "strange" modules makes it not that relevant to share patches. And hitting that sweet spot on jerk off... is more luck than a patch to share.


more generative nonsense....
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/475942/
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
more generative nonsense....
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/475942/


Is this old or new synth? If it's old synth why do you want to change it? If it's new synth I think you're on the right track. thumbs up
colb
cptnal wrote:
...What I think you'd enjoy is more of the simple things. I'm talking dividers, switches, envelope followers, logic... It makes the rack bigger, but you have more possibilities to explore. As an exercise you might try to recreate the functionality of one of those modulators from scratch yourself, using just simple building-block modules.

I agree about the simple stuff. I'm also looking and seeing fewer VCOs than I would want - there's so much mileage in combining multiple oscillators in various ways - FM, AM, Sync, even just mixing them detuned into the same filter and modulating that mixing process.

Personally having spent some time recently exploring generative ideas, I'm finding that I want more low level stuff - inverters, comparators, switching logic, offset attenuverters, precission adders. But also more FX - delays, spring reverb, chorus etc. (I really want a Morphagene, but can't justify the $$$ at the moment). That said, I'd love to try a WMD Sequential Switch Matrix, and/or a Doepfer A-152 Voltage addressed switch. I can also see a lot of potential in some of the features of a Befaco muxslicer (or similar) with it's ability for addressable access to tweakable CV levels. Using these types of devices to control and manipulate the modulation framework of a generative patch seems like it could open up some new areas for exploration... maybe I'll get a Doepfer quad sequential switch instead and find a way with that - creative limitations are beneficial and all that jazz.

One other observation I'd like to throw in from my weird novice/veteran point of view (18 months of Hardware Modular/too many years building software synths and FX in NI Reaktor and Sync Modular), is that in Eurorack, there often seems to be an over-reliance on 'random' and 'chaos' modules. I think it's easier to get satisfying results from deterministic systems based on traditional oscillators and LFOs. Combining these in complex modulation structures employing feedback with various constraints seems to give similarly varied and interesting results, but with more control and potentially more repeatability as well. Maybe that's just me though.
cptnal
colb wrote:
cptnal wrote:
...What I think you'd enjoy is more of the simple things. I'm talking dividers, switches, envelope followers, logic... It makes the rack bigger, but you have more possibilities to explore. As an exercise you might try to recreate the functionality of one of those modulators from scratch yourself, using just simple building-block modules.

I agree about the simple stuff. I'm also looking and seeing fewer VCOs than I would want - there's so much mileage in combining multiple oscillators in various ways - FM, AM, Sync, even just mixing them detuned into the same filter and modulating that mixing process.

Personally having spent some time recently exploring generative ideas, I'm finding that I want more low level stuff - inverters, comparators, switching logic, offset attenuverters, precission adders. But also more FX - delays, spring reverb, chorus etc. (I really want a Morphagene, but can't justify the $$$ at the moment). That said, I'd love to try a WMD Sequential Switch Matrix, and/or a Doepfer A-152 Voltage addressed switch. I can also see a lot of potential in some of the features of a Befaco muxslicer (or similar) with it's ability for addressable access to tweakable CV levels. Using these types of devices to control and manipulate the modulation framework of a generative patch seems like it could open up some new areas for exploration... maybe I'll get a Doepfer quad sequential switch instead and find a way with that - creative limitations are beneficial and all that jazz.

One other observation I'd like to throw in from my weird novice/veteran point of view (18 months of Hardware Modular/too many years building software synths and FX in NI Reaktor and Sync Modular), is that in Eurorack, there often seems to be an over-reliance on 'random' and 'chaos' modules. I think it's easier to get satisfying results from deterministic systems based on traditional oscillators and LFOs. Combining these in complex modulation structures employing feedback with various constraints seems to give similarly varied and interesting results, but with more control and potentially more repeatability as well. Maybe that's just me though.


woah

It's like you've been in my room.

The SSM is very much on my radar, but I must admin the A152 still baffles me. seriously, i just don't get it
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
gis_sweden wrote:
more generative nonsense....
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/475942/


Is this old or new synth? If it's old synth why do you want to change it? If it's new synth I think you're on the right track. thumbs up


I'm only using modules I have decided to keep w00t
gis_sweden
colb wrote:
...there often seems to be an over-reliance on 'random' and 'chaos' modules. I think it's easier to get satisfying results from deterministic systems based on traditional oscillators and LFOs. Combining these in complex modulation structures employing feedback with various constraints seems to give similarly varied and interesting results, but with more control and potentially more repeatability as well. Maybe that's just me though.

I think you are right hihi But still I find chaos satisfying Om They help you lose control... I have two NLC modules to solder.
colb
cptnal wrote:

woah

It's like you've been in my room.

lol
Quote:

The SSM is very much on my radar, but I must admin the A152 still baffles me. seriously, i just don't get it


The downside of the A152 is that I would need to modify it to switch from T&H to S&H... And it is pretty big. But I think I understand the functionality pretty well from reading the Doepfer description. It's been on 'the list' since I started, but I've never seen one on ebay, and I try to buy most of my stuff used or in kit form.
colb
gis_sweden wrote:
colb wrote:
...there often seems to be an over-reliance on 'random' and 'chaos' modules. I think it's easier to get satisfying results from deterministic systems based on traditional oscillators and LFOs. Combining these in complex modulation structures employing feedback with various constraints seems to give similarly varied and interesting results, but with more control and potentially more repeatability as well. Maybe that's just me though.

I think you are right hihi But still I find chaos satisfying Om They help you lose control... I have two NLC modules to solder.

I get that. I just have more trouble maintaining control than losing it Rockin' Banana!
I try and introduce chaos using feedback, so it becomes part of the patch rather than a function of some specialised module. I experimented with building chaos generators years ago in Reaktor with jerk oscillators, and also with a dual pendulum simulation, but never found the results to be particularly exciting.
colb
Here's a completely different take on generative. I hope its OK to post this even though it's software generated, and only modular because I built the generator in a modular coding environment... anyway...
This is an example of bytebeat.

The basic idea is that there is a counter incrementing at the audio sample rate. You write an expression to manipulate the value of the counter using arithmetic and bitwise operators and some more fundamental c style programming operators... Then the lowest 8 bits of the result are sent out as audio.

This idea can produce surprising and unpredictable results.

Here's the expression that generated this example (which goes on for longer than 2 minutes without fully repeating - I just stopped it):




And here's the example - maybe turn down the levels a bit to start with, these things are a bit 'raw' wink
[s]https://soundcloud.com/colray/talking-cross-purposes[/s]

Heh, part of the reason I want a Morphagene is to load a bunch of this stuff into it smile
cptnal
That's a more musical representation than the ones I've heard before. w00t

I'm wondering whether this has anything in common with Turing Machine theory (I don't understand either enough)? There's a lot about it the Grayscale Permutations manual, but I didn't get my head around the finer points at the time. Maybe later...

Meanwhile, I'm wondering whether any enterprising wiggler out there has an A152 and has managed to use it in a way that's apropos to this thread, and if so whether they'd like to share the benefit of their experience?
colb
cptnal wrote:
That's a more musical representation than the ones I've heard before.


I picked that example because it has a constant development, and a short expression. It's possible to create stuff that's a lot more 'musical' in melodic or harmonic terms - although it's always got that gritty in-your-face quality to it. You can even get stuff going with beat, bassline and arp/melody... But that's getting more into the realms of proto-sequencing which isn't really appropriate here in generative corner smile.
cptnal
Oh, no - sequencers are cool. Look at the Entropical Paradise patch for example. SlayerBadger!
gis_sweden
colb wrote:
Here's a completely different take on generative.

Great. I think we can accept nonmodular stuff too.

colb wrote:
Heh, part of the reason I want a Morphagene is to load a bunch of this stuff into it smile

I sold my Phonogene the other day!
But I agree. I want to sample this! My sampler is a Roland SP-404SX. Bought it some weeks ago. I had a 404. Sold it. Misstake.
gis_sweden
Watching NED vs SWE and rearanging.
As I'm writing this NED scores (100 min)

Synth goal
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/926258

Status:


Have a case + modules to sell...
I'm in THAT phase in my modular life. What next? zombie
screaming goo yo Buy, buy, read, muffwiggler 1000 posts
screaming goo yo screaming goo yo Buy, evaluate, make music, muffs 150 posts
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screaming goo yo screaming goo yo screaming goo yo screaming goo yo ?
colb
cptnal wrote:
Oh, no - sequencers are cool. Look at the Entropical Paradise patch for example. SlayerBadger!


Very nice, thanks for the pointer.
gis_sweden
Okay first patch on rebuilt synth (see picture above).
No smoke w00t
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/476136/
Some sort of Krell it is.
It is electronic...
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
Okay first patch on rebuilt synth (see picture above).
No smoke w00t
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/476136/
Some sort of Krell it is.
It is electronic...


I temporarily downsized a few months ago during the transition to my new case and didn't know where to start, so good work! thumbs up
colb
tardishead wrote:

I'll wait to see a patch diagram if you can
thanks for sharing

I know you've since worked it out, but I notated the patch today before tearing it down, so here it is:



And here's the modular grid link
(not sure if this works without login?)
nouri_leiner
jenamu6 wrote:
7thDanSound wrote:
One thing though that I find is key -be careful not to overmodulate stuff! Like mentioned earlier, "within constraints". That's key IMO. Otherwise you quickly end up with just noise more or less.


Yep been in the more or less lots a times.

Use cv mixers.... I like to take 1 out of the Wogglebug and 1 out of my sequencer......put them in a mixer and use that cv to go to a quantizer, instant tonal semi random melodies.
And use attuenators ofcourse

But.....I suck at dowing the very slow evolving things.....my attention span is...wow look at that?


I can relate to that...
cptnal
Had to post, I'm so hyper

I finally nailed what I call the Klobucar patch:



Actually a bit unfair posting it here because, other than the comparators, the key piece of kit is an addressable 1-in-4-out switch, which I guess few people have. I never did until I recently bought a SSM, and I remembered this video made use of one. It always seemed to me hellish complicated, but this time everything clicked. I won't post any output (yet) because it's still new and not much different to Dinko's examples. But if you have the resources it's well worth a go. w00t

To make it proper generative (in the self-playing sense) I'm modulating the parameters he's changing by hand. Now that I have the basic patch down it's time to explore the deeper possibilities...
gis_sweden
cptnal wrote:
Had to post, I'm so hyper
I finally nailed what I call the Klobucar patch:

This is a great video from Klobucar. I wish I had his patience... And a oscilloscope. One of the functions I kept im my new set up was a comparator. I use it in this first patch in two weeks (summer and vacation). I just completed a patch I had in mind. I started patching yesterday with synth turned off. I think I'm happy with my new set up. Maybe I have to add some VCAs (0hp + passive + DIY). But I have some "hidden" VCAs. I almost feel like soldering again... spinning

https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/476902/
cptnal
gis_sweden wrote:
And a oscilloscope.


Indeed. Once I sketched the patch out in MG it looked a lot simpler than I thought. The fiddly part is calibrating the comparators (I used a multi-meter).

One of the ideas in this patch I feel like chasing further is mixing the outputs of comparators, logic gates, etc... and using the result to drive something CV-addressable. In this case it's a switch, but it could as easily advance a sequencer, or... something else. hmmm.....
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