weird problem with b/s/t forum

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Muff Wiggler
wait, what?
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Post by Muff Wiggler » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:57 pm

The DDOS started within 5 mins of this thread being created. It's a hell of a coincidence.

----
edit: I am absolutely NOT insinuating that budz or anyone else in this thread initiated the attack. Far, far more people simply read and lurk than do post.... haha ironically that's the heart of the B/S/T debate isn't it?
-----

At a minimum the attack kept me from going to bed as I'm trying to identify and filter origin IPs to keep the bandwidth suck to a minimum and hopefully keep the site up (they've crashed it three times so far), not to mention limit as much as possible how much the attack will cost me in monetary terms.

As a result, just to chill shit out while I sleep, I'm relaxing the new code a bit. Temporarily if you have 50 posts or more you can get into B/S/T. I don't know what the future holds. Need to think about it.

Thanks guys, really do appreciate all your support. I'm so proud to offer you all this site and no matter what happens the site will NEVER go away. I just need to find the best way to keep the largest number of people happy and keep the complaints to a minimum.

:hug:

questionable
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Post by questionable » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:07 pm

Muff...however you want to run your forum is fine. I hope the DOS attacks are not related to the B/S/T changes. Certainly seems like a bigger issue related to Dreamhost.

If people are cheesed at being locked out, they're probably more cheesed about not understanding or being able to find the new rules than the actual rule changes.

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hednoize
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Post by hednoize » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:09 pm

Muff Wiggler wrote:Now I'm getting DDOS'ed :sadbanana: Gonna cost me a fortune. Whomever is doing that, nice one. Yay. You're awesome. :help:
That is lame as fuck.

I have to say, it's an amazing thing you've done with this forum, donating your time and energy (and money) to create this community. And I understand you're just trying to make it function better -- and you're right, it's probably impossible to make everybody happy.

Keep your chin up. :guinness:
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bwhittington
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Post by bwhittington » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:10 pm

Muff Wiggler wrote:"What do you want? A community or a marketplace?" Because it seems like we can't have both.


First off, oddly enough, I think I might like the forum better without B/S/T, just because it would remove my obsessiveness from the equation. :hihi:

The trick of it is that the marketplace drives the community. It brings in new folks, some of whom stick around to contributors even though more than half of them don't (this topic was my underlying interest in digging up posting stats in the member section yesterday). It also increases the frequency of visits of contributing members and helps promote the hobby by getting new folks involved.

I would understand if you decided to nix it altogether if it is causing problems, but the Catch 22 is that the community we love would likely be a rather different place without it. Maybe that would be different in a good way, even if traffic was lowered a bit.

This clearly seems to be causing you some grief, so I'd also like to say thanks for the great job you've done with this place. There will always be some squeaky wheels, but I'm sure the vast majority of us will support your decision whatever it is.

Cheers,
Brian

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wmgaretjax
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Post by wmgaretjax » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:14 pm

I think it might be a dreamhost problem... another forum I visit went down at the same time and I thought it was funny... double checked and they are on dreamhost as well. or that might just be a coincidence... but they did come back up at the exact same time as well...

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Luka
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Post by Luka » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:26 pm

Actually i think the community would be the same without bst. Your stats displayed that the majority of members do not contribute to the forum post count.

I would miss bst but would rather get rid of it if it is going to burden muff and sandy. I dont think people realise all the work that goes into maintaining it - technically, mentally and personal time wise. It is a free service - the only requirement has been that members contribute 50 posts to gain access.

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haricots
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Post by haricots » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:33 pm

There are a bunch of known 'regulars' who only post when they have something to sell - that is lame. People getting ripped off lately is crazy and sad. Muff, I hope you figure out a reasonable way to sort this out.

Babaluma

Post by Babaluma » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:41 pm

it's so funny to see a million low post count members i've never noticed before bitching about this!

mike, do what you have to do. ditch the BST if it will cause less headaches!

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rac
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Post by rac » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:48 pm

Just a suggestion.

I have no idea how this might work, but what if we kept B/S/T but only allowed for local commerce? Kind of like a small scale CL.

For ex: I've noticed a bunch of other people here from Portland, OR. Maybe they'd be interested?

This way you only deal with local pickup, and don't really have to worry about people scamming others since it's face to face?

With that said, I'm not sure how it would work in this context of this forum or how you'd even enforce that.

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dude
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Post by dude » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:50 pm

haricots wrote:There are a bunch of known 'regulars' who only post when they have something to sell - that is lame. People getting ripped off lately is crazy and sad. Muff, I hope you figure out a reasonable way to sort this out.
totally. man i was just reading through this. i had no idea there was trouble. whatever helps you reach a sense of ideals or relative peace about this place mister muff is perfect by me. you are a prince to have started this place and to keep it going for us. bst ain't worth the trouble if it is fucking this place up. the crack fiends (myself included) can find other ways.

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Post by michenal » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:51 pm

Muff Wiggler wrote:The DDOS started within 5 mins of this thread being created. It's a hell of a coincidence.

----
edit: I am absolutely NOT insinuating that budz or anyone else in this thread initiated the attack. Far, far more people simply read and lurk than do post.... haha ironically that's the heart of the B/S/T debate isn't it?
-----

At a minimum the attack kept me from going to bed as I'm trying to identify and filter origin IPs to keep the bandwidth suck to a minimum and hopefully keep the site up (they've crashed it three times so far), not to mention limit as much as possible how much the attack will cost me in monetary terms.

As a result, just to chill shit out while I sleep, I'm relaxing the new code a bit. Temporarily if you have 50 posts or more you can get into B/S/T. I don't know what the future holds. Need to think about it.

Thanks guys, really do appreciate all your support. I'm so proud to offer you all this site and no matter what happens the site will NEVER go away. I just need to find the best way to keep the largest number of people happy and keep the complaints to a minimum.

:hug:
Muff, this is a great forum. If you decide to close the b/s/t forum then fine, but I find it a bit awkward to make it accessible only to "relevant" posters, whatever that means.

I am not sure what problems you want to resolve with this constraint, but it seems to me that if you want to make a 100% trouble-free b/s/t forum you will not be able to do it by limiting access to newer members.

I may be wrong, but some of the recent problems in the b/s/t forum have not entirely been caused by new members, as they cannot sell anyway.

I have personally been attracted to Muffwiggler for other reasons than the b/s/t forum, but I have been able to build some of my modular thanks to the b/s/t forum, and now I am addicted :cry:

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Christopher Winkels
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Post by Christopher Winkels » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:05 pm

Muff, you're doing an A+ job. Seriously, don't stress over this. As you said, if it all gets to be too much, just flip the switch and go back to the way things were a week ago.

Please do not get rid of BST though. I'd wager fewer than 5% of my posts occur in that forum, but in dozens of transactions I've never once even come close to being ripped off. The level of honestly here is at least as good if not better than what one will see in everyday interactions with people in a face-to-face context (and I do purchasing for a living).

Yes, there are people who only come on here to buy and sell. It's not the end of the world. I'm sure there are people who have 95% of their posts in the Off Topic forum too.

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danox574
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Post by danox574 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:07 pm

So, I have a question.

I've only had a modular for about a year and never frequented this forum. I got most of the useful information I needed from the Yahoo lists, the AH mailing list, etc. I recently had to sell just about all of my modular gear.

I decided to rebuild in Eurorack, bought a small working system, came here, and started supplementing it with the BST forum. Many searches for information led to this forum. I've browsed and read a ton, and when a few discussions have come up about synthesizers.com gear (which I know a bit about) I've tried to assist with the knowledge that I have. It's a small bit of knowledge but I've shared what I can. I won't post shit to run up my posts, I will only post when I feel I'm contributing. This won't happen often until I learn a lot more.

I'm also a big boy and I know I am taking on the risk of any transaction (as buyer or seller) that I participate in and if someone lies about something to me or causes me emotional or financial distress, it doesn't reflect on everyone else here or the guy who runs the place.

Could the person who has a problem with me participating in the MW BST forum please step forward and comment? I'd like to see who this is who's creating pressure for the forum owner here and why they think I don't belong here.

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budz
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Post by budz » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:34 pm

I don't really know what exactly has been going down. Apart from the whole thread about people who got ripped off, I've noticed a few slightly shady moves recently like a blind auction which (rightly imho) riled a few people. Also I think there's a lot of general bitching and bickering that seems to happen about things like prices and shit like that. I think banning unnecessary posts outside of friendly bumps would be a good thing maybe?

I'm guessing the situation as it is now is very hard to moderate. This site isn't a commercial exercise for the people who run it so it's asking a lot to effectively run some kind of e-commerce sub-forum. I think they rightly hope that it will moderate itself, but if some people are acting in a less than cool way then something probably needs to be done :despair: I will miss it if it goes, I've bought and sold quite a few modules without any problems, even way before I reached 50 posts. But I think Muff should do whatever he needs to do to stay sane. Some prior warning or info would be cool though.

Thanks again for the site, it rocks :tu:

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infradead
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Post by infradead » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:35 pm

Muff Wiggler wrote:Right now the future looks like no more BST forum and no more donate button. I really REALLY do love you all, I love that you love this forum, I'm grateful for your support. But I don't know what to do. I'm sorry I let you down.
What no donate button now that as far as i'm concerned is crazy talk.

Donating.
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ignatius
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Post by ignatius » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:40 pm

danox574 wrote: Could the person who has a problem with me participating in the MW BST forum please step forward and comment? I'd like to see who this is who's creating pressure for the forum owner here and why they think I don't belong here.
meet me at the flag pole after school and we'll settle this... :razz:

i think the 50 post rule is for a buyer's protection.. so there aren't people showing up trying to scam buyers with posts like:

"i know i only have 3 posts but you can trust me.. i'm well regarded on other forums.. please buy my ARP 2600 for $3000. i know the price is low but i really need to sell..." yada yada yada...

and i think in general to keep from having a total flood of FS posts every day from people who aren't interested in being a part of the forum but just want to sell stuff.

personally, i love the BST forum and in my experience i think it works very well..mostly due to the quality of person here on this forum.

i think having a post minimum to sell stuff is a very good idea. though, i think for buying stuff it's less important since as is obvious there are a lot of people getting into modulars who are looking for bargains to get started. the onus is on the seller/buyer to communicate all the details and be clear about what they are selling/buying etc. and to check the "good trader thread" and all that stuff.

i think the necessary disclaimers are in place and the 'good trader' thread is in place so, aside from the odd miscommunication that things work well.

but that's neither here nor there... "heavy is the head that wears the crown" and it's muff's call how it all shakes out though everyone has an opinion, the buck has to stop somewhere.

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Muff Wiggler
wait, what?
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Post by Muff Wiggler » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:03 pm

i seriously want to thank every single person who has posted in this thread. Literally every comment here has given me stuff to think about and helped me gain a better perspective on this.

and as a result, I think I know what to do. And I honestly, honestly believe that the majority of people, new and old alike, will be happy with it.

Perhaps I over stressed this a bit, I`m sorry if I reacted too quickly. I`ve got more going on than I can handle the last few weeks and I`m not doing the best job with anything at the moment to be honest :oops:

And yes, I do worry and stress (not usually in a bad way) and really try as hard as I can to keep this place as cool as it can be, for you guys. It`s always going to be growing and changing it seems, and that makes the challenge harder, but I think you all deserve it, and the forum deserves it. I really care about this place and all of you and every single decision is really important to me.

Anyway, I`m feeling better. I had a nap. I read your posts and was reminded how I always wanted this to be a place where people can speak their minds and opinions, and I saw that happenening. And I learned some stuff. And as stated I think I know what to do, for everyone.

But, haha, you`ll have to wait. Like I said, I`m a busy boy at the moment. Right now it`s business as usual at Buy-Sell-Trade. I will write up the posts explaining what`s going to happen with that forum, and make the changes sometime in the next week or so. Still want to think about it some more. Need to get it right this time cuz I`m sick of dealing with all you guyses bullshit :mad:

and oh yeah, buy-sell-trade won`t be going away. Sorry.

:75:

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AnalogBastard
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Post by AnalogBastard » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:10 pm

Dear Muff, I hope you don't squash the donation option, because of my response to another poster. I donated because this forum is the best and as far i'm concerned the last word on modular synth's. By choosing to donate I didn't feel that I would be entitled to any special priviliges etc.
it was an act of appreciation. Please don't let my knee jerk remark, impead on the graditude that members here have for this site and the time and expense it takes to keep things running. Whatever you choose to do will be fine with me, but please reconsider the donation option.
My apologies that any of my comments may have added to the drama and to your aggravation.

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Seaweed Sound
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Post by Seaweed Sound » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:19 pm

michenal wrote:It's not post count, it's "relevant" posts... Whatever that means.
It is your ratio of posts that contain the phrase "maths".

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decaying.sine
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Post by decaying.sine » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:21 pm

One thing I wanted to mention about the BST thread is that I have actually had the pleasure of meeting and getting to know wigglers through selling and trading. It's nice to chat on the phone about transactions, it adds a sense of comfort to certain transactions, and ultimately feels like it spreads a positive community vibe. When I talk to someone, we invariably talk about who else we have talked to and it builds distributed trust that goes beyond the text posting. I don't expect to *know* everyone on a huge forum, but I certainly feel like I know people better and that is based, at least in part, on doing transactions in BST.

There will always be a few bad apples to piss in everyone's punch, but I can honestly say that the BST has broadened the "community feeling" I get when I contribute to Muff's.

I would encourage some of those frustrated by this BST issue in this thread to view it as a site privilege that many people before you have worked hard to make it a good thing. Don't focus on how a few people have fucked up. Focus on how so many people have been honest and reliable or even worked out difficulties without the benefit of face to to face communication. It has worked well. Look at E-M's BST. It doesn't thrive like this one. There is a reason for this. Part of building that privilege is getting involved. In general, I have always had the feeling that everyone wants everyone else here, which is pretty fucking rare. Let's all be careful not to piss in our own jesus juice! :sb:
Brian
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danox574
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Post by danox574 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:29 pm

ignatius wrote: i think the 50 post rule is for a buyer's protection.. so there aren't people showing up trying to scam buyers with posts like:

"i know i only have 3 posts but you can trust me.. i'm well regarded on other forums.. please buy my ARP 2600 for $3000. i know the price is low but i really need to sell..." yada yada yada...
I realize this can happen, and I think that stopping lost post count individuals from posting for sale items has the chance to mitigate this. Nothing is a substitute for 'thinking' though. New users can PM fraudulent offers to people who post WTB: items, for example.
and i think in general to keep from having a total flood of FS posts every day from people who aren't interested in being a part of the forum but just want to sell stuff.
If it's an active community of synth addicts, what is the problem with gear being made available to them from a person that doesn't participate? So, someone has gear to dump and doesn't have anything to talk about. What about this bothers everyone so much?
i think having a post minimum to sell stuff is a very good idea. though, i think for buying stuff it's less important since as is obvious there are a lot of people getting into modulars who are looking for bargains to get started. the onus is on the seller/buyer to communicate all the details and be clear about what they are selling/buying etc. and to check the "good trader thread" and all that stuff.
I would generally agree on both points. There are lots of people who are acquiring used gear (like myself) and hope to more actively participate in discussions. It's to everyone's advantage to let them buy.

Trying to somehow evaluate the quality of a seller from a collected statistic of forum use is unlikely to be better than most people's bullshit filter, however.

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hednoize
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Post by hednoize » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:33 pm

decaying.sine wrote:I can honestly say that the BST has broadened the "community feeling" I get when I contribute to Muff's.
That has been my experience as well, even in my short 10 month tenure here.

And the forum's existence and culture as a whole is something really special that I very much appreciate, B/S/T or not. Big respect to Muff. :hail:
Brent Daniels [Free]
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Reality Checkpoint
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Post by Reality Checkpoint » Sun May 01, 2011 2:16 am

Muff,

I come here because I love the feel of the place, the vast amount of knowledge and experience that is shared and the knowledge that I am in a community where others share our terrible and cruel addiction.

Do what you have to do, you have my full support for whatever decision you need to make. If you need more $$$ to sort out this problem then please make a call and add back the donate button. I know that there are many on here ready, willing and able to help to keep this site, the best on the planet, up and running.

Simon.
aka RC.

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darenager
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Post by darenager » Sun May 01, 2011 6:25 am

Maybe remove the 50 post BST limit and let wigglers decide if they want to take a chance? Personally I'd be reluctant to buy from someone with a low post count - at least if I did not know of them from other forums/lists.

The internet - what a load of fuckery :lol:

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Curtischip
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Post by Curtischip » Sun May 01, 2011 6:29 am

Muff's My home from home..
A place were like minded ppl can talk about their favorite movies, food, porn, music etc , things that inspire them to create, things that piss em off, it has a sense of community unlike any other forum, ppl share what's going on locally wether it be hail the size of gonads or the first snows of winter a place were ppl can share there sadness or happiness if they choose too.
And ofc there's Modulars/synthesizers too! tips, tricks how too's & don't do's.
A place where manufactures can bounce their ideas of the geeks and find out the faults in their own designs or what would make them better/ more appealing to the users.
Thx Muff! from the bottom of my gravity well! and thx to the moderators and all who give their time and knowledge without charge. :yay: :hail: :guinness:

BST (not auction) is its own entity and needs to be treated as such with stricter rules and signing up policies.
tick to agree on the conditions...
sign up with an address or pay-pal details.... or a referral system or similar to safe guard against fraud. (some ppl just aint honest)
all transaction to be done in the open, no pm'ing until a deal is struck
A buyer seller rating system, where ppl can leave there comments directly connected to the buyer/seller positive,negative or otherwise, so ppl can see and choose to deal with em'.
I think the separate sticky's about bad/good traders is not so great, its too hard to search for info, also I'm not a fan of the new dubious trader thread, it seemed to turn into a stone throwing bash ( it was and is just to name and shame bad traders) I just think there's a better way it can be done.
these are just suggestions, and maybe seem a bit too business like, but we are all precious about money; and for sure 'A change is needed' honesty can be hard to find and without doubt there will always be some rotten apples in the barrel, such is life! :sadbanana:
No Gain No Pain

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