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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Adapting the EuroRack audio world for video synthesis
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Video Synthesis  
Author Adapting the EuroRack audio world for video synthesis
lizlarsen
EDIT: I've decided to make this thread a sticky, and put a list of all video demos posted in this top post.

Audio Oscillators with the LZX Visionary
Roland V-Synth XT as a Video Oscillator (waveforms)
What the Malekko Wiard Anti-Oscillator looks like and what the LZX VWG sounds like
Moddemix VS. LZX
Cwejman SPH-2 demo as a video module
LZX + Doepfer A137-2 Wave Multiplier
A-136 Solarization Tests
Colors of Shadows
WMD - Synchrodyne - LZX VIDEO

There was a request recently for a thread concerning techniques for using and adapting modules typically designed for audio synthesis for the purpose of video synthesis, particularly in the world of EuroRack (although this thread doesn't need to stop there.)

So chime up with your impressions and advice on techniques with using your favorite audio devices with your video synthesizer!

Here's a new demo by Johnny Woods to start us off, which coveres WMD Gamma Wave Source, QMMG, Wiard Oscillator, and Toppobrillo Triple Wave Folder.



I will be collecting "field reports" from this thread to create a database with information on things like which audio oscillators sync to video clocks, etc. For a future resource page on my website.
kjellb
We can save time and money by sharing which audio modules work for video. My experience is that you can do a lot with standard modules and even with audio mixers and effect pedals. As for oscillators and syncing, the terminology used by the LZX system does not seem to be the standard used in the industry. As far as I can see what Lars calls "field rate" equals Vertical Drive (VD) pulse, and "line rate" equals Horizontal Drive (HD). Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is the way it looks from the tutorial in the post. The A-111 VCO2 has good locking capabilities. This module will lock to VD which will give you locked horizontal bars. To produce vertical bars you should get a dedicated video oscillator from either LZX or from the announced upcoming Jones system. From my experience the audio oscillator that goes pretty high is the Livewire AFG. But this has a much smaller window for locking than the A-111 (see the tutorial above and notice how you much approach a certain frequency before the oscillator locks). The Livewire AFG will lock to HD and produce vertical bars (but not like a dedicated high frequency video oscillator). Mix one VD locked oscillator and one HD locked oscillator, add some CVs and you start to engage the eroticism of analogue video shaping. For wave shaping I used the A-136 (which works fine) a lot, but now I prefer the Toppobrillo Triple Wavefolder.
MrDys
I want to try to get some video up (hopefully this weekend...?) of the audio modules I use (A137-2, A196, A126).

But...has anyone tried the Piston Honda as a waveform source yet? I'm thinking that custom ROMs might provide some unique opportunities for "drawing" waveforms. I guess I'm looking for how well it syncs, etc...?
lizlarsen
Kjell, thanks for the awesome post. smile

Quote:
As for oscillators and syncing, the terminology used by the LZX system does not seem to be the standard used in the industry. As far as I can see what Lars calls "field rate" equals Vertical Drive (VD) pulse, and "line rate" equals Horizontal Drive (HD).


Here is some reasoning/philosophy behind our choice in terminology...

-- Horizontal / Vertical drive, which are video sync signals, are active low (negative trigger) logic signals, which is the opposite of what is typically dealt with in the synthesizer world, which are active high (positive trigger) logic signals. In LZX terms, Line rate clock and Field rate clock, are inverted versions of HD and VD, meaning there is a positive pulse at the beginning of the horizontal, and vertical intervals. One reason for the naming change is to avoid confusion with inverted and non-inverted sync signals.

-- From a beginner's standpoint, most users we assume are coming at this system with no previous experience of working with broadcast gear and video sync generators. However, most users are at least comfortable and understand the concept of "Frame rate" and also of a "clock/bpm clock" signal used for audio. We felt a natural extension to this understanding of "Frame rate" would be to promote an understanding of vertical and horizontal sync signals as "Field rate clock" and "Line rate clock", since these terms are intuitively clear in that they are dealing with timing/clocks and with what timing they are dealing with.

-- We felt "horizontal drive" and "vertical drive" were also confusing terminology for a beginner when working with sync'ing oscillators, since the "Horizontal Drive" signal creates vertical bars, and the "Vertical Drive" signal creates horizontal bars.
lizlarsen
Quote:
Piston Honda as a waveform source yet?


Scott has a system and he's been experimenting, hopefully he'll chime in with some notes!

Quote:
I'm thinking that custom ROMs might provide some unique opportunities for "drawing" waveforms.


A wavetable based video oscillator would have tremendous potential! I'd really love to see a dual wavetable video oscillator, designed specifically for sync'ing one side to Field rate and one side to Line rate, and some cross-modulation between wavetables specifically for drawing "shapes" as you say.

I know the new Zorlon Cannon revision will have two sections, designed to be used this way to generate pseudo-random pixel fields/sequences.

Quote:
I guess I'm looking for how well it syncs, etc...?


The problem with digital oscillators (or any digital module that uses a DSP engine or microprocessor for a core timing component) is that the crystal clock which drives the microprocessor will be running asynchronous to video clock. So while it may sync... you will have jitter. What is needed to circumvent this is future consideration taken for having a connection (either back panel or front panel) for insertion of an external clock signal which then gets PLL'ed (multiplied) to drive the microprocessor clock directly. This is why the TipTop Z-DSP is intriguing, because it has this feature, which makes it possible to drive the entire DSP engine off of a phase-locked video clock.
daverj
"VD" Vertical Drive and "HD" Horizontal Drive are standard EIA sync signals from sync generators. Those are 4 volt peak to peak negative going, into 75 ohm terminations.

But "vertical sync" and "horizontal sync" are timing concepts rather than signal standards. Vertical sync usually refers to the whole complex sync signal during the "vertical interval" (the vertical sync pulse and any serration pulses), while horizontal sync usually refers to the sync signals happening during the "horizontal interval" (the horizontal sync, burst, front porch and back porch).

Yes it can be a bit confusing to noobs that oscillators locked to vertical sync make horizontal bars, and oscillators locked to horizontal sync make vertical bars. But it's more about the concept. The video image scans from top to bottom (vertical) and from side to side (horizontal). The sync signals are the video sync signals, and are conceptually correct when thinking about the image itself (vertical sync = vertical movement on screen, horizontal sync = horizontal movement on screen). "Vertical rate" are signals (like oscillators) running at multiples of vertical sync (50Hz or 60Hz) while "horizontal rate" are signals running at multiple of horizontal sync (15 KHz).

Personally I think it's better to educate new people about the video image rather than mask the concepts using non-standard terms. Otherwise they'll still be confused when they have to deal with equipment from other companies. (such as cameras that need H sync and V sync) Besides, once you're teaching them the difference between "frame" which they probably are familiar with, and "field" which they probably are not familiar with, you might as well teach them the rest of it.

On my upcoming genlock module the H and V pulses for triggering oscillators are marked with "H" and "V" and a graphic showing positive pulses.

johnnywoods
Could we move the discussion of sync nomenclature to it's own thread to keep this one on topic? Thanks!

Back to the original topic, I'm interested to see what you can get out of that PLL. What have you been using it for?
lizlarsen
Hey Dave,

Quote:
Personally I think it's better to educate new people about the video image rather than mask the concepts using non-standard terms. Otherwise they'll still be confused when they have to deal with equipment from other companies. (such as cameras that need H sync and V sync)


I agree that education is paramount in all this. I'm not claiming our way of labeling the outputs on the Video Sync Generator is the proper way, it's just what made sense to us at the time, and I was explaining our thought process as to why.

I would hold (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the "Field rate clock" and "Line rate clock" labels are still technically accurate descriptions for these signals, and ones that do not work against an educational effort on the nature of these signals. However I honestly really like the way you're approaching the labelling with the H & V and pulse symbols -- and I am not inflexible, and happy to mark our VSG module panel like this for future revisions if that's what the community would prefer. After all, it does mean the same thing, and the only difference is labeling on a single module.
lizlarsen
Sorry Johnny!!

I'd be interested to see what someone could get out of the Doepfer PLL module. I am still a newbie when it comes to various PLL schemes, but the basic idea is that you can lock two sources in phase/cycle with each other (phase-locked loop) by voltage controlling one of them (a VCO) with the low-pass filtered version of the phase difference between the two of them. The 4046 PLL chip incorporates several of these functions (phase comparators, a VCO, a low pass filter, etc.) into a single chip.

In order to do frequency multiplication with it, you need to divide down the output of the faster VCO to a division that matches the frequency of the slower one, using clock division of some sort.

So, in the clocking a microcontroller sense, you use a PLL multiplied version of Line rate (HD! Mr. Green) instead of an asynchronous crystal oscillator. So for example, if you want your microcontroller to run at 16.128MHz, you would multiply line rate by 1024 by setting up the microcontroller to send a CLK/1024 signal back into the phase comparator of the PLL.
MrDys
Along the lines of what I was asking above about the Piston Honda....

I tried out my V-Synth XT as a waveform source this weekend. It works great. Two oscillators that can be FMed, ring modded, mixed, or hard sync'd together. Each oscillator can be a variety of analog-modeled waveforms, or I can load PCM single-cycle samples and use those. I can't wait to get some time to go through the Adventure Kid Waveform set.

I tried to trick the V-Synth into giving a stable image by setting one osc to be an analog shape and the other to be an external input (line rate clock signal) and hard sync'ing the two. It would lock, somewhat stably, but it wouldn't show the analog shape, just a single small bar, which I think was how it wanted to show the line rate. I couldn't figure out how to get it to hard sync to the signal without also mixing that signal into the output. I think I need to explore a little more here. (The only downside of actually getting this working is that I won't be able to use the PCM waveforms. It only supports hard-syncing with its VA-oscillators. Oh well.)

Once you have the oscs set up (detuning the oscs and FMing them seemed to have the most useful results), they can be run through filters/waveshapers and then finally a multi-effects section with reverbs/delays/chorus. The filters in the V-Synth give some pretty fantastic results. There are these sideband filters which give some amazing results. Say you have a big triangle bar going, the sideband filters will chop it up like the IBM logo. Modulate the bandwidth, and the size of those chops will grow/contract and do a kind of 80s video transition.

Everything can be automated with individual LFOs, and there are also 4 16-step sequence modulators (which can be stepped or smooth) that can be assigned to any number of parameters. There's lots of modulating fun in a single patch.

I need to read a little further in the manual, but if I can get the V-Synth to play two different patches simultaneously, and I can hard-pan each to L and R, then I have two more video oscillators to play with in a TVF. Fun stuff.
lizlarsen
That sounds fascinating!

Getting the v-synth to sync up, jitter-free to the sync from an external videl clock may be pretty impossible, BUT... I wonder, there may be some tricks you can do to get synchronized waveforms out of a computer/DAW...

For example, if you had a recording of video sync signals sampled as a loop and base all your other samples/waveforms off of this loop as a master timing source... and you send this loop out of your DAW directly to the external sync input of the VSG. And then use the other DAW outputs to output waveforms sync'ed or playing in multiples of that same timing. The VSG should be fairly tolerant as far as the voltage range it can lock onto, so it should "sync" to this false video without issue, as long as the timing and sync pulses are correct for interlaced video.

Hmm, not sure if it would work, but it's worth a shot!!
lizlarsen
One way to get a video sync sampled loop would be to just record a black/blank output of the CVE's video outputs into the DAW as audio. I think it would work, anyway.
johnnywoods
Very curious to see some results, MrDys. In my (very limited) experience, I've gotten great results from digital oscillators as fm sources. I'd love to see some of the possibilities you described below, especially what is happening with the FX sections.
ocd synthnerd
MrDys wrote:
I want to try to get some video up (hopefully this weekend...?) of the audio modules I use (A137-2, A196, A126).

But...has anyone tried the Piston Honda as a waveform source yet? I'm thinking that custom ROMs might provide some unique opportunities for "drawing" waveforms. I guess I'm looking for how well it syncs, etc...?


I have video I need to edit but the piston honda is amazing as a video oscillator. It syncs to field rate pretty good. A little jitter. The hertz donut is also great and syncs to field rate equally well. They both make very interesting video oscillators. They are quite beautiful. Modulating yon and hither with a ph-4 or your favorite lfo while the Piston Honda is in field sync is very cool looking. Lot's of variety if you have the waveform rom expander loaded. It takes steady hands but playing around with yon and hither can generate all kinds of stuff. I got a squigley line sync out of one of the roms adjusted just right. Haven't been able to reproduce it but I have it on video. The Hertz donut will ghetto line sync but it produces just a few to five rough vertical bars and never loses the field lines scrolling unless you field rate sync the modulating oscillator and line rate sync the primary oscillator but you get fewer, less vivid, vertical, jagged, pixilated bars.


A big surprise was the anti oscillator. It syncs to field rate and line rate through the 1 volt per octave jack. Line rate sync produces jagged jittery bars that have a lot of texture. You need to play with it a bit and mayhem out seems to produce more bars than triangle but it works pretty damn good.

Dmf-2 is a big winner just using it as dual sine oscillators, wont sync but all the cwejman stuff you can tune the frequency pretty easily to get the bars to stop scrolling and stay as still as sync almost. Plus it's an amazing filter or vco and filter. Does a lot.

MMf-6 this filter has a ton of tricks and works as a very interesting filter or very interesting wave form generator. You have to see this one. Like it's made to do this almost. The mmf-6 will do something similar to the piston honda, generating squigly line rate bars but no line sync.

vco-6 wont sync using the sync jack but syncs to field rate perfectly patched into fm2(expo fm) triangle and sine wave sync perfect to field rate, the other waveforms you kind of see the shape of the different waveforms moving along the bottom, side to side but with no scrolling

D-lfo another big hit, syncs to field rate patched into any of the two sync jacks for each lfo. Perfectly stable field sync with sine and triangle waves. RM/AM output can be put into field rate sync for either the left side or right side or both at the same time. Syncing one side and letting one scroll is a great effect when patching out of the RM/AM output. This is an amazingly awesome and complex dual lfo that works as a great lower frequency double oscillator with all kinds of tricks, has to be seen.

Envelator and Maths also have a lot of video functionality. Not a big surprise.

Cwejman S1 I love you. Every part of this beast is video awesome.


I'll eventually get video posted but wanted to share my findings.
I suddenly have a much bigger video synth system without getting any new modules.

A cve, a vsg, one vwg, and a triple fader and key generator along with the right audio modules that you probably already own would make for a very powerful little video synth set up on the fairly cheep. Having everything is ideal but not necessary.(I don't really believe this I need everything though, I'm full of shit and hooked on eurocrack, now video eurocrack but I do feel like 3 vwg's is almost enough now for me with the great tricks my audio vco's can pull, i'd like another vwg and a vbm yesterday though )

But if someone wants to just test the video synth waters the two core LZX modules (cve and vsg) an anti and the two Harvestman oscillators(or your choice of a couple full featured vco's can do a lot of cool stuff.
lizlarsen
Fantastic post!! hyper
I'm going to start putting all this "VCO evaluation" info into a spreadsheet.
If you feel up to a project at some point, it'd be great to get some screenshots of each VCO. Probably the best way to visualize an audio rate waveform for screenshots is to use it to pulse-width modulate a line-sync'ed VWG.
MrDys
I managed to get my video capture device (just a USB TV thing) working finally. Here's what the V-Synth XT analog-modeled waveforms look like:



I'll do something more interesting (what the different filters do, modulation, etc.) when I have some more time. Oh, and if you notice the waveform jump at certain points, that's just when the sequencer has looped back to the beginning and re-triggers the note. I need to find a better way to get it to just sound all by itself...
ocd synthnerd


This is a link to a demo of some eurorack modules and a few Lzx
core modules to show you can start with a small LZX system and get some results.

This is also about a neat trick I learned that the Anti oscillator can do, as well as some filtering demos done with audio filters.

The audio is the sound of 2 and 3 VWG's.

This is a demo there is no artistic merit to anything you will watch or listen to.
johnnywoods
very cool ocd! lots of interesting tips in there. thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up
lizlarsen
I really love the audio track, the very precise sync circuit of the VWG has a very interesting sonic quality.
Cat-A-Tonic
How useful would the TipTop Z3000mkII be for video with its 30kHz at the upper range?
It seems faster than most audio oscillators, but it doesn't do the 2mHz of the LZX.

A similar line of thought is A-188-1 BBD clock out.
Pretty high frequency I think, but mHz? hmmm.....
lizlarsen
Quote:
How useful would the TipTop Z3000mkII be for video with its 30kHz at the upper range?


Perfectly useful for a Y-axis modulation source. See the chart here:
http://www.lzxindustries.net/video-sync-guide

If it can sync to Line rate/HSync then it will be useful in some cases, but at 30KHz you're not getting even close to the full depth of the X-axis range. (Divide the frequency by 15.734KHz to get a rough approximation of how many vertical bars you could create.)
Veqtor
I've had some strange behavior when polarizing high-frequency signals with LFO's when using the makenoise modemix, anyone w. a lzx system care to experiment? I get these funky "noisy" ringing high-freq content, might be interesting in a video context.
lizlarsen
Ringmod or amplitude modulation is definitely really interesting and useful as a video technique. I don't have a modemix to experiment with, but Tony has the two LZX core modules, maybe we can get him to do more experiments with them. He's mainly interested in vector display stuff, and is waiting on the video ramps module to get really started in that.
numan7
applause what a fun thread (that makes me want to do some experimenting)! thumbs up

cheers,
7n7
johnnywoods
oh it works!

I'd tried using the moddemix for video before, but for some reason, it's very very picky about working with low voltages (ie: it doesn't work!). Using the prototype voltage bridge to boost two oscillators up to 5v, it worked brilliantly! Well into line rate!!! I made a quick little video. It's uploading to my youtube now.
I'll post once it's done uploading.
johnnywoods
here's the video, just a simple demonstration of basic functionality:
daverj
Was the flicker in the purple in the first half some kind of bleedthrough of another oscillator, or an artifact of the modemix, or something else?
johnnywoods
The flicker is most likely due to the fact that I recorded this to a VHS tape that has probably been re-recorded on about 25 times. I record everything that comes out of my modular, but I have one tape I keep re-using for "experiments". I didn't notice the flicker when I was recording, but I'll check it out tomorrow to make sure. The Moddemix definitely adds a bit of softness and a slight slew to the right of the image.
lizlarsen
Nice experiment Johnny!! Interesting stuff.
Yeah, that looks like old VHS flicker/flavor to me too.
daverj
Yeah, recording to VHS definitely could add that flicker. And you won't see it during recording.

I was assuming that you recorded to DV or straight to a computer.
ocd synthnerd


Sorry it's blurry. It's the best I could get the compression.

Do you guys deinterlace when compressing?
Since the LZX modules use interlaced video I thought it might make it look better if you don't, but deinterlacing seems to make things look less ragged
for me.

Anyone know which way is the way to go for sure?
lizlarsen
Oh, weird!!! There's some really interesting stuff going on in there. I need to try out my phaser as well now.

Deinterlacing helps a little bit sometimes, it really depends on the nature of the video. The video itself is interlaced but any unsync'ed control voltage sources or oscillators you feed in as video sources are going to be linear rather than interlaced. I usually deinterlace clips when rendering out before web upload.
daverj
That was fun. I especially liked the craziness around the 6 minute mark.
ocd synthnerd
Thanks guys.
I'm bummed on the compression. A few minutes of my favorite stuff can't be seen. I would have cut it out if I knew it was going to turn out like that. Sadly I guess I'm using the best compression settings I can seem to get. Compressing is always a let down.
Oh Well.
How do you imbed Vimeo files on this site? The usual doesn't seem to work here for me.
daverj
It works the same as YouTube embeds. Just use the "Video" button in the reply box. Either paste the link, select it and then hit the Video button. Or Hit the Video button once, paste the link, then hit the Video button again.

I fixed your post so it is embedded.
ocd synthnerd
I swear that's what i do but It never works. I'm dumb I guess.
thanks dave
daverj
Well, it may be something odd with the forum too, or with Vimeo. When I just came here the video wasn't showing. I refreshed and now I see it again.
jjr
So the video exiting the color video encoder is interlaced when its set to NTSC - when its set to PAL is it progressive ( full frame)? I'm still trying to wrap my head around what happens when you send a 16:9 wide screen signal in - does it remain in 16:9 in the system and whats the best way to keep it 16:9 when exiting the system?
thanks
jjr
lizlarsen
Hey Jimmy! 16:9 is a question of how the video is displayed and recorded -- there's nothing in a composite video signal that defines it as "16:9" or "4:3". So if you're shooting with a 16:9 camera, then send it through the video synth, and display it as 16:9 on a monitor, or capture as 16:9 when digitizing, it will maintain the aspect ratio with no problems.

PAL and NTSC are both interlaced formats.
johnnywoods
jjr wrote:
I'm still trying to wrap my head around what happens when you send a 16:9 wide screen signal in - does it remain in 16:9 in the system and whats the best way to keep it 16:9 when exiting the system?
thanks
jjr


It depends where the signal is coming from. If you're sending out a composite signal from a video camera, DVD player, etc, you will get letter boxes at the top and bottom of the image. Unless, the device has an output option to send a "squeezed" signal.
Of course, this is still a 16:9 signal, but it doesn't take advantage of the full resolution within the system.

My technique of choice is to ingest the 16:9 footage into FCP or Avid, then squeeze it to a 4:3 aspect ratio before outputting to the video synth. My display has an option so I can view it "unsqueezed" while I'm working. I capture the processed signal through an HD upscaler which also has an "unsqueeze" feature. So it ends up 16:9 in the end. It's actually much simpler than it sounds.
jjr
cool what upscaler do you use ? its hardware?
thanks
jjr
johnnywoods
jjr wrote:
cool what upscaler do you use ? its hardware?
thanks
jjr


I actually have a VHS player with an HD upscaler built in. It works surprisingly well. Ive also used a Matrox MXO2 Mini and Avid Nitris DX.
The Matrox is a great affordable I/O solution. It has composite/ s-video/ component/ HDMI in and out. Support for ProRes too.
jjr
thanks. Have you guys ever used magic bullet instant HD? I never have and I wonder how it compares to a hardware solution.
http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/products/all/magic-bullet-instant-hd/
daverj
A hardware solution is more convenient. A software solution can potentially give better results, since it's under no time constraints to do the calculations.

But of course cheap hardware and cheap software can also give poor results if not designed well.
flozki
hello. i use all kind of analog modules.almost all the basic doepfer stuff as well as many homemade modules.
all vco's, lfo's , cv switches , 4067 based sequencers work also for video sequencing. this was quite a suprise for me because normally 4067 multiplexers are really low-fi (frequency, crosstalk...) but it works...

but i use synkie input, output modules. so the sync pulse is removed and added back in the end. also i can use the modules to genrate sync.
so between you can use anything but have to divide down the voltage to 1 volt.
f.
PhineasFreak
Are there any basic utility modules intended for sudio setups that don't work or should be avoided when planning a euro videomodular
I'm aware I'll want some multiples/buffers/mixers etc (as far as cv's go I mean)

Am hoping that althgough the cv's aren't generally gonna be +/- 10v or whatever that most basic euro utilities will work?
daverj
On my upcoming video synth, all video inputs accept standard Euro +/-5 volt signals as well as the special video voltage range. No adapters or anything else required. Just plug in any Euro module.
lizlarsen
As far as utility DC mixers, mults, and buffers go, the only real concern is bandwidth when mixing 1V signals such as those put out by the LZX modules. Passive mults don't make a difference -- buffered mults, and mixers which use op-amps intended for audio, may have poor frequency response for video signals, but will be fine and useful for mixing lower frequency modulation signals, regardless of the voltage range.
PhineasFreak
Is a buffered mult likely to be necessary or does most video stuff have such things effectively built in?
johnnywoods
The LZX modules have buffered outputs. I've stacked up 6 stackcables on one output with no noticeable droop.

Dave: I'm curious about your earlier reply. Assuming your system runs on 0-1v video signals, does this mean CV inputs are separate from video inputs? Or is there some sort of switching to allow for the different ranges?
lizlarsen
All the LZX module inputs are buffered before any attenuator circuitry, so it's kind of like having them built in. There is about a 0.05% drop in gain for each mult that's made. Using a buffered mult designed for standard frequencies in an audio system will limit the bandwidth of your signal, so in this case, passive mults or stack cables are preferred.

We may do a proper video-bandwidth buffered mult at some point, but so far it hasn't really been necessary taking into consideration how the modules are designed. Maybe in a really giant system where you wanted to feed an input video to 24 comparators at the same time, or something crazy like that, it would be useful.
PhineasFreak
yay! that's grand! i was mostly thinking for when i use midi to sequence stuff and i like to use velocity to control 4 or 5 variables at once - sounds like a good ol mult will do it.
daverj
johnnywoods wrote:
Dave: I'm curious about your earlier reply. Assuming your system runs on 0-1v video signals, does this mean CV inputs are separate from video inputs? Or is there some sort of switching to allow for the different ranges?


All of the input jacks on my video modules are dual purpose inputs. They are stereo 3.5mm jacks. The "tip" is a standard +/-5 volt CV input just like on any Euro audio/CV module. So any Euro module can be plugged into it and the video module sees it as a +/-5 v signal.

The "ring" connection of the stereo jacks accept my 2vp-p (+/-1v) video signals. All of my video modules take video in, and put video out on the ring connection of a stereo jack. So you use a stereo mini cable to patch video from module to module.

So basically you patch with a standard mono mini cable from any Euro module and my module sees it as CV or audio. Patch with a stereo cable from any of my video modules and my module sees it as a video signal.

So there are no separate video and CV inputs. All inputs accept either video or CV, depending on what you patch into the input jack.

The video input pins on the stereo jacks are terminated with 75 ohms, just like standard video. This allows a very high bandwidth, very low noise video signal to be passed between modules. Many of my modules have double outputs, so you can feed their output to two other modules without needing a buffered mult. I will also have a video buffered mult (distribution amp) module for when you want to go to more modules. (or to split signals from modules that only have a single output jack)

The 2v p-p video signal also helps reduce signal to noise by having a larger signal. Plus I have found over the years that a bipolar signal is nicer for mixing and patching because it centers middle gray at ground.

One other thing is that many of my modules have two input jacks for each input, which gives a mixer built into those inputs, allowing two video signals, two CV signals, or one video and one CV to be mixed at the inputs. Not all modules have that, due to size/space issues. But there are a number of them that do. This reduces the number of external mixers needed in the system. And allows easy mixing of video and CV.

My modules only put out video signals. The inputs accept either, but the outputs are video. A small module will be available to convert my 2v p-p video signals into +/-5v signals, but since the +/-5v Euro modules can't handle video rates, the result would be blurry video going out to standard Euro modules.

There will also be a small module to convert both ways between my 2vp-p signals and the LZX 0-1v signals.
MrDys
I mentioned early on in this thread (and elsewhere in this subforum) about my fondness for using the Doepfer A137-2 Wave Multiplier with video signals. I finally recorded an example of what it can do:



It's really handy for modulating static images. I got the Video Ramps today and I can get a lot of motion out of just a few ramps -> mixer -> A137-2.

It's one of the cheaper Doepfer modules out there, so grab one.
lizlarsen
Oh wow, yeah great tip! That clip was awesome!! I want one now. We have a waveshaper design finished that can do interesting stuff, but specifically oriented towards polar-to-cartesian type conversion. It would complement that waveshaper nicely, to do the more video rate stuff.

Another great note about this is that any audio module can safely process the Ramps outputs without any bandwidth loss usually. The horizontal ramps are 15KHz, which is in the audio bandwidth range.
MrDys
Speaking of waveshapers, I had really good results tonight using the CGS/Ian Fritz 5pulser in a similar manner. I have a video uploading to Vimeo that somewhat shows it off (though not in a before/after manner like the clip above).
lizlarsen
Awesome. I'd love to see a demo like the one you posted, where the vertical signal you were viewing was used as PWM source on a horizontal locked oscillator so we could see the waveshape a little better, too.

We need to get a wiki going so we can start documenting all these notes!!
kjellb
Personally I am very happy with toppobrillo wavefolder http://www.toppobrillo.com/TBmmCO/TWF.html
lizlarsen
Just got a Doepfer A-144 Morphing Controller and A-143-9 Quadrature LFO. Both are AWESOME for video!!! A-144 makes a 4-band soft-key colorizer for lower bandwidth signals (great in shape patches without a lot of fine detail) and A-143-9 can generate some very interesting modulation with all phase outputs controlling separate elements of a shape patch. I definitely recommend these two, especially for those of you wanting maximum utility in smaller systems.
nickciontea
i had the quadrature lfo in my case for a long time. only sold it planning to try the dr. octature from intellijel

Highly recommended
MrDys
The 143-9 is fantastic both as a modulator and as a video source. Super cheap, too. I may have to pick up another.

I wonder if it could be modded to have a sync input...

Edit: I asked on the Doepfer list if it could be modded for sync. Let's see what Dieter has to say.
lizlarsen
I can't say enough good about the 4MS Pingable Envelope Generator as a low frequency video modulation source. Having the separate slope/skew controls which are independent of frequency REALLY allows you to fine tune the response of an animation curve.
I'm also finding tons of more interesting uses for the A-144 morphing controller -- sending envelopes or slewed sequencer outputs into it before sending it's outs into a video patch is just incredibly useful.
MrDys
Here's what Dieter wrote back Re: a A143-9 sync mod:

Quote:
I'm sorry but that's not possible. We thought about this feature during the design but the circuit is kind of a filter in self resonance. If one would add a sync circuit similar to other VCOs (electronic switch that discharges the timing capacitor) the oscillation would not start with full amplitude but increase little by little until the full level is reached. That's probably not what you would expect from a sync input.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer


Oh well.
daverj
If you have the Doepfer PLL module (A-196), You could try feeding video sync into one side of the phase comparator, feed one output of the A-143-9 into the other input of the phase comparator, and then feed the low pass output back into the CV input of the A-143-9. That might sync it up.
MrDys
I will try exactly that when I get home. I love this place.
MrDys
Yep. That totally worked. I feel like I've now greatly expanded my system with this simple patch.

Patch notes:
Video sync -> amplifier (I use half of a Gozinta) -> A196 "In 1"
One of the A143-9 outs -> A196 "In 2"
A196 lowpass out -> A143-9 CV1

The A143-9 should be set to the high frequency range. The Lowpass frequency on the A196 should be set fully counterclockwise. The phase comp type on the A196 should be set to 3.

You can put an LFO into the A143-9 CV2 to get accordion-style stretching animations with no problems. The CV knob must be set around 12 o'clock, though, for reasons I don't quite understand.

All in all, totally awesome. Thanks for the tip, Dave.
lizlarsen
Awesome! That PLL module just moved further up my priority list.
Matos
Can we see some video? This sounds really cool. I've been looking at the pll trying to figure out exactly what it does. MrDys
MrDys
Matos wrote:
Can we see some video? This sounds really cool. I've been looking at the pll trying to figure out exactly what it does. MrDys


Sure, I'll do a video over the long weekend.

Something Dieter said also triggered another experiment:

Quote:
the circuit is kind of a filter in self resonance


Hooking this patch up to filters that can self-oscillate also works. It really depends on the filter, but I get very useful results out of the A106-5 and A107. I also tried the A106-1 and A127, but I think there's too much going on with those topologies for this to really work.
lizlarsen
This should work for most VCOs too!
I wonder if the A-196 is capable of line/hsync-rate sync'ing if the oscillator itself can go that high.
daverj
I would think so. A phase comparator is a pretty high speed circuit (usually a couple of flip-flops). I don't know about the filter in the A-196 (I don't have one), but you could always use a different low pass filter. And even with the current one, if it doesn't go high, the loop should still lock, but won't have a fast correction speed for quick frequency changes of the oscillator.
orangebud
I'm using the Flight of Harmony Choices joystick. It's pretty handy because you get 2 rotary knobs for each input (scale/offset) that are quite powerful and then can use the joystick on top of it. Right now I'm routing a video in signal to one side of it and a some lzx VWGs controlling the lzx keying module to the other. I'm getting all types of colors/patterns quickly while the joystick is also acting as a fader for the video in out and as well keying.
Matos
Yeah! I just plugged in the choices last night with the ramps to make some wipes and shapes blending different ramps. I'll have to see what else I can plug into it. Just nabbed a a144 based on your advice Lars. We shall see what magic it brings Monday.
lizlarsen
Cool! Yes, I have 2x Choices -- they are awesome. A144 would be great with Choices too. I imagine the Malekko/Wiard JAG would be super awesome as well, for lots of video stuff. I know it uses TL074 as the op-amp -- if I get one, I want to try increasing the bandwidth on it a bit.
barto
i got the chance to play with some Frac modules to experiment with integrating an audio input. We ran an ipod through a high pass filter and then to an envelope follower and then into the LZX and MVIP and got some pretty good results (ill post some vids soon). does anyone have any recommendations for euro modules that would do the trick? im looking at the doepfer a-121 multimode filter and the doepfer a-119 external input / envelope follower or possibly the doepfer a-170 dual slew limiter. orrr possibly wait until the LZX audio visualization module comes out? i do live video with DJs every now and then and would love to be able to plug in their audio into the LZX.

another thing that was fun was using a sequencer so if someone has a recommendation on that as well thumbs up
lizlarsen
The A-119 would do the trick, if you don't want to wait for AV Tools. I use MATHS as adjustable envelope followers, too. You can also plug line level audio into the modules directly... nothing wrong with that, it is about the right signal range already (but there's no slope/envelope control of course.)

If you want filtering, a simple adjustable bandpass filter may be all you need, rather than a full multimode VCF but not sure what module(s) offhand would be best.
lizlarsen
For Sequencer, I use Pressure Points + Brains. The AV Tools has a beat detector output (so does the A-119, but it has no low pass filter), and at the Chicago meetup we were having lots of fun triggering the sequencer with the beat output.
nickciontea
every patch i make utilizes the Cwejman AP-1 for audio input/envelope. This is definitely overkill, but having the led meter is actually quite nice. I have come to recognize exactly where i typically want my signals amplitude at for the lzx.

In comparison to the doepfer.
the A-119 has the comparator out which could string a series of EG for more complex envelope following. Comparator outs also give you the ability to dial in and sync a sequencer to a 4 on the floor for instance.

AV tools big win is the individual bandpasses prior to the comparators so you get certain envelopes for certain frequency content (kicks, snares, lead)

Av tools will definitely be in my rig. but I also plan on buying the upcoming intellijel input module (w/ rise and fall EG and led meter) so i can give the ap-1 one back to its owner and save some hp and $
daverj
At the TV Center we used the envelope follower in an MS-20 for many years to drive video processing with audio. It works really well.

When we added Doepfer stuff a few years ago the first thing we added was the Vocoder Analyzer module, which puts out envelopes for a bunch of different frequency bands. I never got to spend much time with it, so don't know how well it really works for controlling video with audio, but I know a number of people that went through the Center used it.
lizlarsen
The MS-20's ESP section is great! I heard a rumor that Scott/Harvestman is working on a modular version of it soon.

I have really enjoyed my AV Tools design, but I debate myself endlessly on preferring it (with the 8 filtered envelope outputs in 8HP!) or more of a single-channel in/out type thing with more controls like an adjustable bandpass filter and rise/fall adjustments.
barto
thanks all! would the A-119 and the AV tools be redundant or would they compliment each other? im thinking for the time being i could run my audio through a standard mixer and then into the A-119
lizlarsen
They are redundant in the sense that the AV Tools will do mostly the same things for you that the A-119 would (plus all its extra features). But there's no harm in having them both for multiple inputs! Plus, the AV Tools isn't available yet, is the main difference. smile
lizlarsen
I also highly recommend the 4MS Pingable Envelope Generator!! Two tap-tempo LFO/envelopes in one module. So awesome for quickly getting animation in sync with whatever a live band or DJ is doing.
Matos
Damn. Where is everyone getting these pegs from? Ah is on forever preorder. Dead Banana
johnnywoods
Matos wrote:
Damn. Where is everyone getting these pegs from? Ah is on forever preorder. Dead Banana


Lars got his direct from Dan at 4ms. AH shipped a few, I believe, but when Dan announced the v2 upgrade, they returned them all to get upgraded.
I have two on the way from AH, and Shawn told me they should ship out early this week.
Matos
Thanks. I'll see what's in my pocket when the vwg's arrive this week.
smrl
Ian Fritz's 5-Pulser works beautifully with tri's & saws from ramps or a VWG. Input needs scaling to 5v.

Slew-rate limited in the lower-frequency x-axis region. Will probably try swapping out op-amps just to see what happens - I am considering building one of these pre-configured for 1v I/O, with higher bandwidth.
lizlarsen
That's a really great idea! It looks like you could replace the op-amps with LM6172 or similar easily enough -- you'd want to also decrease resistor sizes by a factor of 10 or so (in addition to modifying for 1V scale.) The LM3914, I'm not sure how fast it is -- but it could be replaced by a string of other comparators if you wanted faster response (it's just more chips.)
smrl
Yeah. It's a really simple idea for a waveshaper, especially with the bargraph IC having most of what you need already there. But it's definitely got me thinking - this is a really good way to get sync'ed oscillator-type behavior using just ramps and a control voltage!

But it all really comes down to how fast those comparators are on the chip... I'm going to do some modeling - I think this might make a useful subcircuit for a design! This would pair well with a variable slew since you've only got hard edges otherwise.

I'm doing some simulations...
lizlarsen
I like the way you think. Excited to see what you come up with! thumbs up

And not every video circuit has to have 5MHz bandwidth either -- stuff that gives things soft edges can be nice, too.
daverj
The LM3914 was no doubt designed with very sow simple comparators, so I wouldn't expect much in the way of video speeds from it. Slow comparators don't put out soft signals. They put out signals with a lot of delay and no changes during detailed parts of an image. But they still transition relatively quickly. So they can give some interesting lo-fi look to video.

Of course audio op amps after them will then soften and blur the signal.
smrl
OK -- This one's a lot easier than modifying a 5-pulser. I was messing around with the timing caps in my A-143-1. This could be very useful, I'm just not done messing with it to try further experiments. It's great as a trigger delay and/or ramp generator - Set one up as sync'ed to field, trigger another one with the comparator out of the 1st... Then with the 1st in A/D mode I could get many of the 'ramps' shapes (or approximations anyway), Or with the 1st in LFO mode, can get a bunch of bars with adjustable rise/fall slopes... Works great! Haven't even tried seeing what comes out of the mix output...

I simply subbed the 2.2u timing caps with 10/100nF. Will see how fast it can actually go, figure out some good values and then install a few switches to select. It seems as though this module is set up so decay values are up to twice what attack values are -- if I was using this as a module for exclusively video I would probably make this symmetrical.

This is also great for other things as well though! In the audio realm, running a square wave into the trigger gives you oscillator sync with variable timbre!

Also worth noting, I've used this module in the past as a trigger conversion tool -- because the comparator will trigger directly from the LZX I can drive a 4ms RCD/SCM with it.

If you've got an A-143-1, this one's too easy not to do!
lizlarsen
Nice! I've got an A-143-1 and will have to try that. It's not very useful as an LFO to me, because of the non-linear slopes. This module also triggers decently off of just an external audio signal (like separated kick or snare drums) I've used it live in a pinch very effectively in that manner.
Matos
So not really eurorack, but a great box that keeps on surprising me. The moog multipedal is great for animation. 4cv's that can be triangle, saw, square, random lfos or noise. All controllable by an expression pedal or by midi for tempo synced madness. You can save patches and switch between them via midi. Super rad to play the pedal to music and get all sorts of lush movements. It's my secret weapon in the war against static images. Rockin' Banana!
MrDys
I've been using the Doepfer A-136 as a shape creator/animator. It can usually be picked up for next to nothing because people aren't particularly fond of what it can do for audio. Feed it a ramp and dial in the knobs as appropriate. Feed it some LFOs to get some movement out of it.
lizlarsen
interesting! from the picture of that module, it looks like it is two quad op-amps and a few passives? can you confirm which op-amp models they are? if there is a higher bandwidth DIP quad amp, it may be possible to swap them out for some increased bandwidth!
MrDys
Just checked, both are LM324N.
lizlarsen
I will dig around for any possible replacements. Paging daverj, do you have any ideas?
MrDys
Awesome. Out of curiosity, what would a larger bandwidth get me in something like a waveshaper module? A more detailed image?
lizlarsen
That's right. If you run video (like from a camera) through it now, I'd expect the output to be very blurry if not completely indistinguishable. The image would get sharper with higher bandwidth. This enables all sorts of exciting applications using this module to do colorizer/solarization type patches too.
Matos
You guys got me excited. Half my doepfer us due to your suggestions. Great ways of making a small system flexible.
lizlarsen
The module that's still getting the most use by me is the quadrature VCLFO -- I love it!
daverj
The LM324 is an old quad op amp with the same pinouts as most common op amps (like TL074). It's often used because it is very low power, and it's slow bandwidth helps keep CVs smooth if they don't need to go really fast.

It's a bipolar op amp instead of a FET input like the TL074. In some designs this can be an issue, in others it doesn't matter. It depends on whether the designer was just going for the low power aspect, or was using the characteristics of the bipolar inputs as part of the design.

Chances are you could substitute a TL074 and get 3 times the bandwidth, but without a schematic I can't be sure. You might be able to go with an even faster chip, but again, without knowing the circuit it's not easy to predict. Faster chips can often oscillate when substituted because the design doesn't take into account the characteristics of the faster amp.

For general shapes and patterns you don't always need a faster chip unless you are going for extremely fine detailed shapes or sharp edges.
lizlarsen
Maybe I will order one of these and give it a shot, soon. It's nice that the op-amps are socketed in Doepfer modules.
MrDys
I think I have some TL074's laying around, so I'll try this out when I get a free minute.

I also e-mailed Doepfer to see if they have any kind of advice on the matter.
lizlarsen
If you get oscillation, that might possibly be solved by adding a small (2pF?) cap between the output and inverting input pins. It'd be nice to have schematics for all the Doepfer modules, then we could document full mods for those that could possibly be upgraded bandwidth-wise.
MrDys
Dieter is amazing. Nicest guy in the world. He responded:

Quote:
You may replace the LM324 by other pin-compatible op-amps (like TL074). Nothing can be damaged and the circuits are cheap. ... Maybe some frequency compensation is required for faster op-amps.
MrDys
So, I didn't end up having any TL074's laying around like I thought I did. I'll have to pick some up this weekend.

I did try out the A-136 on a video signal, though. I got some interesting effects, but the fidelity was pretty low. Definitely got some solarization-like effects. I'll have a video demonstrating it when my internet at home stops being stupid.
MrDys
Picked up some TL074's today. Did something of a side-by side comparison with the LM324:



The LM324 is first and from about 2:45 onward it's the TL074. There's definitely more fidelity in the TL074, but they seem to have slightly different effects. I really like the effect in the TL074 version when the levels are cranked and it gives it a kind of analog-vectory appearance.

I may have to have two (or more) of these modules with different chips in.
lizlarsen
That's some really beautiful stuff! Another reason to have two of them would be for RGB processing -- one each of a module like this send to RGB outs (but with a common source) should give a very cool solarizer/colorizer. Another thing to try to add more "voltage control" to this effect is to sum an LFO with the video signal before sending it to the distortion module.
johnnywoods
Very cool! I got to play with a prototype LZX waveshaper circuit when I was in Australia, and it was an amazing tool. Although it's meant to do some specific color conversion tricks, it is also capable of beautiful solarizations.

I've done some RGB processing with the Toppobrillo TWF, and the results were very cool. Need to play with that some more.
lizlarsen
We'll have the video waveshaper prototype at NAMM next week and will upload some video demos of it in action!
barto
nice comparison! i didnt really understand what you guys were talking about before
daverj
Nice lo-fi processing. The images worked well with the effect
numan7
in the pics thread, MrDysj wrote:
Is that SoS useful on video at all?




here's a quick demo i made of SoS processing signals from a VWG (as well as being modulated by another VWG, starting at around 4:00). while it isn't the most precise effect in the world (nor is intended to be), i think it can do some fairly interesting stuff.

cheers
smrl
Yeah I've played around with a couple of homebrew delays I've built around the PT2399 with video - it's interesting but extremely bandwidth-limited - has a minimum delay time that's not quite short enough for video stuff in my opinion, if you're doing some horizontal band type stuff and get the timing just right you can get some nice smooth cascading bands. I don't think voltage-control is all that beneficial, using VC feedback might be nice but you have to get the timing just right to get some coherent stability out of it, otherwise it just looks like a garbled mess. There are probably better delays out there for working with video, i'd look for something that can go down to shorter, 'chorus' rates...
lizlarsen
Yeah, even an extremely short delay (a couple hundred nanoseconds for example) at decent video bandwidth could create wonderful things within a feedback patch, especially if voltage controllable (also at video rate!)
zapp550
This thread got me started on running video through some of my stompxoes , very fun stuff screaming goo yo. I'll try and post some of the results this weekend.
MrDys
On the A136 front, I've gotten good results tonight by inputting the video signal into the "Ext Level" inputs and skipping the "Input" input entirely. Worth a shot if you're experimenting with non-video modules.

Speaking of which, the STG Wave Folder does excellent work as a solarizer, too.
wcfields
Just ordered the Sandin kit modules and added a Doepfer A-144 Morphing Controller to the order.
giorgio
also ordered both kits
seriously, i just don't get it seriously, i just don't get it seriously, i just don't get it
I'm pumped for the edge extraction, I've been using keyers to do it up until now but I'll be more than happy to use the TVFKG for other duties.
nickciontea


The WMD Synchrodyne is a wonderful module for people who want to supply both an audio synth and a video synth.

It syncs nicely w/o amplification of the LZX VSG signal.
Sawtooth core runs upto 400kHz.
PLL opens up a world of tinkering and possibilities.
The filter works nicely in HP modes
Wavefolding is icing on the cake.

This video's output is entirely SYNCHRODYNE.. One VWG for FM
Matos
Nice video. I was curious about its video prowess. Looks like a winner.
lizlarsen
Very exciting!
Stable line rate sync + 400KHz range = the second truly viable video oscillator in Euro outside of the VWG!
nickciontea


dont think this one was posted in this thread. interesting waveforms
nickciontea


My favorite audio oscillator for LZX .. the dual osc HERTZ DONUT.

i constantly use the wavefolding and lfo.

2 of these in my system
Cat-A-Tonic
Cwejman VCO-6 syncs happily to Line.
reignbear
Cat-A-Tonic wrote:
Cwejman VCO-6 syncs happily to Line.


interesting, how high does it go?

i got my bugbrand syn2a to sync to super low line rate, as in the line is like 1/3 of the screen width.

edit: it also syncs to field pretty well. not as well as the hertz donut, more like the wiard oscillator in johnny's video.
Cat-A-Tonic
reignbear wrote:
Cat-A-Tonic wrote:
Cwejman VCO-6 syncs happily to Line.


interesting, how high does it go?

i got my bugbrand syn2a to sync to super low line rate, as in the line is like 1/3 of the screen width.

edit: it also syncs to field pretty well. not as well as the hertz donut, more like the wiard oscillator in johnny's video.

Perhaps I spoke too soon in my video newb-ness.
I'm just getting my brain wet in this part of the spectrum.

The sync input of VCO-6 doesn't have much effect,
but expo FM (line, field, color bars) is great.
It is easy to tune into somewhat stable patterns of many horizontal lines moving vertically,
or 3 vertical lines moving horizontally.
It takes some fine tuning to get them not moving.
The octave switch and fine tune are just as handy for video purposes as they are for audio and LFO duties.
I think PW Saw will prove useful.

The response of the Wiard/Malekko Anti-Oscillator is very different.
Self-FM tunings are interesting.
With the Mayhem out you can get some neat diagonal seaweed patterns.
MrDys
I've been using the Doepfer A-127 Triple Resonance Filter to do some filtering/color separation effects. It's pretty great. It's three filters in one module, so you get one for each color channel. It has a built-in independent LFO for each channel that can be bypassed with any other CV source. Individual outs as well as a summed out (great for feedbacking), amplifier and attenuator on the ins and outs. By default, it's setup to be three bandpass filters, but a jumper will turn it into a lowpass. I need to make a 2HP breakout that brings that jumper selection to the front. There's another mod out there that will change the filters into highpass ones. It'd be great to get all three in the breakout.

At some point I need to pull it out of my case and investigate if any of the ICs can be upgraded to higher bandwidth versions.
nickciontea
If your sync into an audio module is a little off. or only has sweet spots.. It could help to amplify your sync signal.. thru a TVP, Voltage Bridge. or other amplifier that goes higher than unity.
spaceship
I have been getting some cool effects using my LiveWire Dalek Modulator
Cat-A-Tonic
OhMyFuckingDog!

The Cwejman FSH-1 is the mutt's nuts for video effects!

Color shifting, feedback patterns, directional shifting, wondrous analog artifacts... spinning
Matos
Nice! The micro hadron does some delightful things to video. Using the built in mixer to fade between signal is super terrific!
lizlarsen
I imagine that frequency shifter does some really fun stuff. Post some video!
barto
im dying to get some audio reaction here. the doepfer a-119 is available now. maths is being redesigned but that seems more versatile. the AV tools probably wont be out for a while...will the a-119 have other uses when those other 2 modules come out?
lizlarsen
Quote:
will the a-119 have other uses when those other 2 modules come out?


There is some feature overlap, but it is not identical to MATHS or AV Tools.
Plus, most EuroRack modules hold their value very well, so you could always sell it when something more ideal comes along.

One point to make is that with the 1V signal ranges in the LZX system, you don't really need much, if any, extra gain/amplification on a line level audio signal, in order to bring it up to the proper modulation range. So that feature of the A-119 is pretty negligible.

If you want something that will be cheap, with maximum "useful now" and "useful later" (with AV Tools), I'd up an A-170 dual slew/limiter:
http://www.analoguehaven.com/doepfer/a170/

It will be useful with AV Tools because the individual outputs don't have their own rise/fall adjustments (the envelope followers in AV Tools are all tuned respond as quickly as possible without causing inter-frame glitches.)
If you want to further manipulate the rise/fall time of these envelopes, a slew limiter like above will be useful.

And it should be useful now, just feeding audio into it directly -- or better yet, feeding audio into Voltage Interface I, adjusting for 0-1V range (clipping off negative portions of the waveform) and then feeding it thru the slew/limiter. In this case you've got each module performing the two functions of an envelope follower.
barto
thanks lars! so since its a dual slew limiter i could mult the audio signal and extract lower bass frequencies and higher snare frequencies at the same time?
lizlarsen
Quote:
thanks lars! so since its a dual slew limiter i could mult the audio signal and extract lower bass frequencies and higher snare frequencies at the same time?


No, it won't do any frequency extraction. A slew limiter is basically a DC-coupled low pass filter. You want to do frequency extraction before the envelope follower/slew limiting. Any basic audio VCF with Low-Pass, Band-Pass and High-Pass outputs will be able to give you three outputs. There are also some multiple bandpass filter modules. AV Tools is basically a microphone preamp & input amplifier followed by 8 pre-set bandpass filters and then 8 pre-set envelope followers.

So you want to go :
audio > filter(s) > envelope follower(s)
smrl
Malekko switch passes full bandwidth video and needs no amplification. (max365-based) The select input does need to be switched at >1v, and is not nearly so fast, seemingly only capable of audio-rate modulation.
lizlarsen
Nice, on the Malekko switch! Should be great for strobing or frame rate switching.
barto
just got my first audio module today (PEG) and have a couple questions so i dont blow anything up. trial by fire tonight at a gig evil

1) this module has a scale knob. i believe its 5v at center but you can scale up to 10v. i assume i need to use voltage interface 1 or voltage bridge to use it with LZX modules? will i damage anything if i accidentally scale up to 10v while patched?

2) in order to patch LZX signals into it, i need to scale up with voltage bridge?
johnnywoods
The nice thing about PEG, is you can use the scale knob to output roughly 1v signals. Just start with it at 0, then slowly turn it up until you see an effect you like. The 5v output does not pay attention to the scale control, so make sure you have the right output patched.

What LZX signals would you like to patch into it? If you're thinking of using the frame clock to sync the PEG, then yes, you will need to boost the LZX logic signals. Most audio gear doesn't respond to the 1v signals.
johnnywoods
oh- and no matter what, you won't blow up anything! So patch liberally :-)
barto
ill probably end up patching some VWG's into the CV input on the PEG but
holy shit this module is awesome! for my band, i try to make a patch that looks good and sounds good for noise in between songs and this module has made it so much more interesting/fun. im trying to save the last bit of space in my case for the next LZX release but i now must debate on getting another 9u case or perhaps one of those big gorilla box cases because i definitely need more audio modules in my life. very frustrating
nickciontea
jjr
This video posted a while back looks awesome. I tried to follow the thread back to figure out what it was that was processing the video but I'm still kinda confused. Anybody want to enlighten me?

Also nick thanks for the demo!

spaceship
jjr wrote:
This video posted a while back looks awesome. I tried to follow the thread back to figure out what it was that was processing the video but I'm still kinda confused. Anybody want to enlighten me?

Also nick thanks for the demo!



Looks like a filter to me.
jjr
Yeah I was hoping to find out which filter 8_) Drugs spinning
Matos
Link says its a doepfer a-136 distortion wave shaper module. Fun little guy.
giorgio
oops
raulsworldofsynths
Just figured out this cool patch. thought I would share it. Hopefully hasn't been posted before.
Just a note, I know the optomix actually does extra work, but something about pushing it through the optomix actually warps the ramps a little, rounds them off. weird!

[/img]
Here's a video of it.


Peace!!
Raul
thumbs up
Matos
Celt done Raul. I like the swirling madness at the top.
raulsworldofsynths
Matos wrote:
Celt done Raul. I like the swirling madness at the top.


Thanks. It reminded me of a paint spill or whirlpool.
Pretty fun.
w00t
raulsworldofsynths
Holy smokes! I just went back and did the same patch but this time added feedback from a camcorder, instant 3D, followed by Timothy Leary moments!



Just in case anyone wants to try it out.
thumbs up
samn
^ Thats killer! Love those rubbery lines. Video feedback is amazing smile
Arturo00
Awesome patch Raul! Though I must admit, I prefer the first one. Both are very cool indeed thumbs up
nickciontea
great looking lines!
analogPedagog
cool smile
ratch
Great reference. thank you
Egor
I'm new to the world of video synthesis, and as a starting point I purchased a Dave Jones MVP, as it seemed like the best option for getting started on my student budget.

I'm wondering if there is a way to expand my video system now. i.e If I purchased some lzx modules, such as the waveform generator and the triple multimode filter, would these input directly into the mvp, or would I still need the lzx encoder and synch generator?

I also have an expert sleepers system, and want to use it with my video system to experiment with pattern synthesis. Has anyone tried making audio max/msp patches, then using them through a converter such expert sleepers to generate video patterns before?

What are the best modules I should look at purchasing in the future to experiment with pattern s ynthesis? 

And finally.... Has anyone had success downloading the pdf's under the  Diy schematics section on the lzx industries website?
All three sound good and I'd like to try making them, however when I open the pdfs, there are just a few random indecipherable symbols scattered across the page, it's by no means a readable schematic!

Thanks to everyone for there help and advice to a video synth newbie!
daverj
Egor wrote:
I'm new to the world of video synthesis, and as a starting point I purchased a Dave Jones MVP, as it seemed like the best option for getting started on my student budget.

I'm wondering if there is a way to expand my video system now. i.e If I purchased some lzx modules, such as the waveform generator and the triple multimode filter, would these input directly into the mvp, or would I still need the lzx encoder and synch generator?


The MVIP has a video input which expects a composite video signal. It extracts the sync information from that to create the sync on the video output. So only real composite video signals can go in there. (like the output of an LZX encoder, a DVD player, camera, etc...)

It also have CV inputs. Those are expecting audio rate and below. And are expecting standard +/-5v Euro signals. So the LZX 0-1v signals would be fairly small. And anything above the audio range won't be seen. So you can't really put video rate oscillators in those and get video rate bars or shapes.

The MVIP works fine processing the output of the LZX encoder. So to go that route you would need their oscillators and the sync gen/encoder modules to feed video rate oscillations and shapes into the video input of the MVIP.


Egor wrote:
And finally.... Has anyone had success downloading the pdf's under the  Diy schematics section on the lzx industries website?
All three sound good and I'd like to try making them, however when I open the pdfs, there are just a few random indecipherable symbols scattered across the page, it's by no means a readable schematic!


What are you opening them with? Do you have Acrobat Reader (Adobe Reader) installed? (get it free at adobe.com) I just went and checked and all three display fine as PDF files. If you just open them as text files then you'll see a bunch of strange character symbols and not the schematics.
hinotori
I'm interested in logic modules and the LZX and have read about the LZX video logic and the Spock. But, has anyone used the Abstract data logic boss in their system, or had interesting results from other logic modules?
kjellb
Intellijel µFold works real well for video.
nickciontea
kjellb wrote:
Intellijel µFold works real well for video.


i'd love to see what you got!
kjellb
I am sorry but I do not have any recordings (and stressed out timewise). Anyway the folds and symmertry inputs can handle pretty high frequent inputs (several bars locked to horizontal) and I have been keeping a couple of these modules in my live performance case for more than a year.
kjellb
Mungo w0 gives superclean waveforms. It reminds me a bit of the Jones oscillator which I have been testing for some time. If you buy w0 for video make sure to get the latest version.
reignbear
kjellb wrote:
Mungo w0 gives superclean waveforms. It reminds me a bit of the Jones oscillator which I have been testing for some time. If you buy w0 for video make sure to get the latest version.


Interesting, how high does it go?
kjellb
Not too high, 2-3 vertical bars. It will not replace a dedicated video oscillator.
kjellb
Mungo Enterprises send me a waveform that made the module reach higher frequencies. For me a couple of vertical bars is good enough for a music based oscillator. I am lucky enough to have a couple of the upcoming Jones oscillators which hits the sky anyway.
reignbear
kjellb wrote:
I am lucky enough to have a couple of the upcoming Jones oscillators which hits the sky anyway.


waah waah waah
barto
piston honda mkii works well. syncs to field rate and you get some interesting results by morphing through the wave tables
kjellb
I should test it. How does the morphing work video wise?
Cobramatic
Tried out the TipTop Z3000 Osc with the LZX.
Specs suggest it gets into video rates.
My trials gives 1 vertical line without syncing and upto 3 vertical lines if synced via Line rate into the 1v/octave input. For some reason the 'sync' input is a lot less useful at Line rates.
A few diagonal lines are possible also.
Horizontal lines are all good as expected - no need to sync to Field rate as the Osc is very stable.
As it has all usual waveforms out and 2x FM and PWM cv control in then it works well as a lower frequency VWG, which is damn handy 'cos there are still no VWG's out there (no stock for at least a year now.....)

Grab one if you can't get a VWG!

Been using the Malekko Wiard Anti-Osc for interesting wave folded vertical lines too via the 'Mayhem' output.
Cat-A-Tonic
Doepfer A-172 Max/Min works great with LZX video.

As I understand it Max/Min is synonymous with
Analogue AND/OR,
and Peak & Through.


...but the LZX module is 'digital' Logic, right?
Just 0 and 1v, nothing in between, right?
lizlarsen
Quote:
...but the LZX module is 'digital' Logic, right?
Just 0 and 1v, nothing in between, right?

Correct. The new version of VBM has a "MAX" output (analog OR.) Digital logic serves its purpose with the LZX logic modules, but analog logic is arguably more useful for compositing video signals.

Does the Doepfer Min/Max lose any resolution on video signals?? If not that's awesome. It probably uses discrete transistor logic.
Cat-A-Tonic
lizlarsen wrote:
Quote:
...but the LZX module is 'digital' Logic, right?
Just 0 and 1v, nothing in between, right?

Correct. The new version of VBM has a "MAX" output (analog OR.) Digital logic serves its purpose with the LZX logic modules, but analog logic is arguably more useful for compositing video signals.

Does the Doepfer Min/Max lose any resolution on video signals?? If not that's awesome. It probably uses discrete transistor logic.

The Doepfer Max/Min uses 2x LM324 chips.

The picture quality is good enough for most tasks.
The same as Doepfer A-152, or Blacet Hex Zone sequential switches.
There seems to be a slight softening (loss of resolution).
When using with oscillators you wouldn't even notice.
With external footage there is a difference, but it's fairly negligible.

That's cool that the new version of the VBM has Max outs.
You should revise the description on your website and Analogue Haven.
I don't think the write up got updated along with the module.

There are also Analog Logic and Peak & Trough PCBs available from Ken Stone (CGS).
It's hard to DIY for cheaper than used Doepfer though (especially if you factor in time & effort).

It's a pretty fun way to combine images.
moogboy
I've been fucking around with the ADDAC 601 Fixed Filter Bank for about 3 hours now, using the envelope outs of each of the frequency bands (some fed into a Macro Machines Dynamic Destiny for switching) to modulate parameters on the MVIP. I suspected the Fixed Filter Bank would be a great module for video applications, and I was not disappointed. Can't wait to try the RxMx/Fixed Filter combo with it.
drumasaurusrex
Both of these examples are great! Thanks for posting!
drumasaurusrex
I have tried recalibrating the Mutable Instruments Edges to get higher frequencies and try to push into video rate (vertical lines). The control of the frequency is weird after calibration, but allows the module to generate frequencies above the audible range... but just barely... like I get to nearly the maximum frequency range before it becomes inaudible.
It is not ideal for video synthesis. However, it is a fun (for a minute) adaptation of an audio module. You get 4 separate oscillators with separate outputs or a mixed output... with some cross-mod options. Mostly pulse wave (except for osc4), but can add/substitute for some extra modulation if you've got one.

Cheers.
Dirty_Bill
Playing around with the Ciat-Lonbarde Denum and Swoop. These "Bounds/Bounce" oscillators like to fly all over the frequencies, but feeding them line and frame sync signals to their bounds makes them sync at some frequencies. This is triangle outs into the Cortex from the Denum and then Swoop (with a VWG sine colorizer over the top).

Just shot with the phone, excuse the pixels and scan lines. More experimentation is needed. Definitely not worth a video yet hyper



Cat-A-Tonic
I've had some good results with audio filters and wave-folders processing video.

Wave folders look similar to filters, but with more ripples or bands instead of washes/smears.

Pulse based wave folders act kinda like keyers.
drumasaurusrex
I have really been enjoying the 3TrinsRgB+1c for adapting my audio modules to the video world.

The link below is 3 waveform outputs from the Pittsburgh Modular DNA Symbiotic Waves module sent to the R,G, and B CV jacks on the 3Trins. With the fine tuning knob, you can get some -fairly- stable waveforms. It doesn't show well in the video, but at low frequencies, you can see some cool digital edges in the different waveforms.

cheers!

https://youtu.be/Evg8_DTMvE8
bananeurysm
Is it at all possible to generate composite video with color with standard eurorack modules? color info comes from a related modulator of some sort right?
Cat-A-Tonic
bananeurysm wrote:
Is it at all possible to generate composite video with color with standard eurorack modules? color info comes from a related modulator of some sort right?

You need some sort of Color Video Encoder and Sync Generator.

LZX has a few options.

Alternatively, you could use:
Dave Jones MVIP
or
3TrinsRGB+1c
bananeurysm
Cat-A-Tonic wrote:

You need some sort of Color Video Encoder and Sync Generator.

LZX has a few options.

Alternatively, you could use:
Dave Jones MVIP
or
3TrinsRGB+1c

Yeah I'm aware of those (excellent) options. And I do have a 3trins, but I'm wondering if there's away to DIY the chrominance signal using 'vanilla' audio modules.
giantmecha
Hallo, has anyone here had their Maths modified for video use? I was speaking to Tony @ Make Noise, and he said this is something he used to do for folks looking to pair their Maths with an LZX rig, to get it into (better) video range. Or is this something that can be achieved with a voltage bridge/attenuator?
Dirty_Bill
giantmecha wrote:
Hallo, has anyone here had their Maths modified for video use? I was speaking to Tony @ Make Noise, and he said this is something he used to do for folks looking to pair their Maths with an LZX rig, to get it into (better) video range. Or is this something that can be achieved with a voltage bridge/attenuator?


I have had the Pressure Points modified for video - it involves making the output voltage range 0-1V I believe. This is less necessary with Maths, as it has output attenuators on each channel, so it's easy to dial into the video range.

One of the issues with mod'ing is it will make the module less useful for regular audio synthesis.
Eloc
bananeurysm wrote:
Cat-A-Tonic wrote:

You need some sort of Color Video Encoder and Sync Generator.

LZX has a few options.

Alternatively, you could use:
Dave Jones MVIP
or
3TrinsRGB+1c

Yeah I'm aware of those (excellent) options. And I do have a 3trins, but I'm wondering if there's away to DIY the chrominance signal using 'vanilla' audio modules.


I believe that if blanking and sync signals were imposed correctly on signals created with audio modules, so long as their output was scaled/offset to 0-1V, then you would get a viable black and white composite video signal (i.e. Luminance) relatively simply. However chrominance is more complicated. If somehow these audio modules' signals strayed up into the chrominance carrier frequency range, I imagine you would get some flickers/flashes of colour, but to do colour properly you need quite specific phase shifted and amplitude modulated, but otherwise consistent carrier frequencies (which is probably a good deal out of the range of typical audio stuff).
Ayab
DaveRJ - Do you mind me asking what video modules you are planning?
NathansModular
I performed extensive testing on my entire audio rack today with the vidiot. In order to be scientific I only used my vidiots horizontal and vertical sine outputs into its red key input. I varied the oscillators rates. I did not use any attenuator in any of the sucess stories though on most modules that didnt work I attenuated the vidiots signals to pass their comparitors. No advertising or guaruantes. I am a video noob but I did this to give back what I could as a thanks. Your miledge may vary:

I have had the best results from day one with my fm aid. It allows you to take a simple wave as an input and get waves that are significantly more interesting back. Synching was preserved. Today I tested two signs and got some cool shapes back. Feeding shapes in mostly results in odd contorted versions of them back.
fm aid

Doepfer min max with horizontal and vertical sine with the max out routed back in.
doepfer min/max


Veils for amplitude modulation required gain on the modulator but the results were very pleasant. Seems boring but when I do more with it its incredible. Veils

Vermona quadropol for ring mod is a favorite of mine. The dc offset and attenuversion are very useful utilities but the fact that you can ring mod with slight skew make it a favorite for me. Similarly boring but much more exciting stuff is possible. quadropol

I was shocked at the result I got from my rossum morpheus. This is vertical sine input with horizontal sine on one of its modulation ins. The modulation in lagged slightly and so it slowly scrolls (its not in sync) but I couldn't beliece the results.
morpheus

My Dixie 2+ doesn't sync no doubt about it but all its modulation sources responded to my horizontal and verticle sine with no gain added. This is video rate pwm and sync. This was a stable image and manipulating the pwm yielded insane stuff.
One of the most beautiful simple things I have done.
Dixie 2+


I find my ornament and crimes bytebeats to be a very nice noise source as I can sequence it, and adjust many parameters to get drastically different results. Not even closed to synced though and it doesn't accept video rate inputs.
vitznutzcracker, sweet! o_C

Rockin' Banana!

I am willing to do very extensive testing if someone needs and provides a framework for it.
I am also willing to provide creative examples if desired though I choose not to. I did not want to do any marketing just technical demo.
NathansModular
Last night I began my journey to DIY a serious video synthesis station. I built my first module, a elby design/in fritz 5 pulser, as I believe that wave shapers are one of the best tools for video synthesis. Its not perfect and well it does preserve sync I noticed every few minutes it would jump a bit to a different state. Probably a result of my soldering Dead Banana

I found it very nice for distorting shapes as provided what I would like to call translational effects. It worked the best when I fed it an additional video rate oscillator into the cv in instead of just feeding a single video oscillator into the input. Heres what I got:

Mostly just twiddling the shape knob seeing what results so could get.


All of these were done with the diamond output of the vidiot with a triangle wave fed into 5 pulsers cv in. One of them uses the hardwired shape to color key in addition.


Hardest part was choosing which one the million variations to record


Definitely worth my 60 dollars.
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