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Syncing Feeling :(
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Production Techniques Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 [all]
Author Syncing Feeling :(
Babaluma wrote:

in my case it was just the mobius's timing that was not good enough. the mobius is a digital sequencer with analogue outputs. i naively expected to be able to run the sequencer, record, repatch, run the sequencer again and record and expect the waveforms to line up exactly, which they did not. :(

Just to clarify here: The Mobius and the PC could have exactly the same speed of internal clock and they would still never lock up unless physically connected/synched together. When you push 'PLAY' on both, you will be milli- or micro-seconds out of time and this gap would always be there. Now, since neither of them are synched to each other that gap will grow.

I've had great success with my DAW and the Octopus yet I'm still thinking of adding that Sync-Lock to the mix since I have a ton of outputs on my audio rig. It seems like a very good solution.
i just want to report back to let everyone who has offered advice know that i think my problem is sorted!

i repeated the experiment but instead of using the mobius as the master, i used it as a slave synced via midi time code to my new pc audio/midi interface (echo audiofire 12).

lo and behold, when lining up two separate takes of exactly the same thing, i get almost sample accurate sync even after 10 minutes!!! there is a tiny little bit of "flamming" on some beats, but no continual drift like there was before.

i am now safe and sure in the knowledge that i can overdub and things are not going to drift out of sync.

thanks to everyone who has offered help!
Hi all - just an update for those interested:-

Midi Clock or MTC In or Out from your DAW will always be a rough ride. Take it as fact. Firewire or USB. Doesn't matter. There are loads of reasons. If it bothers you or not it still makes a difference to how things sound.

At least if you have good hardware as master - something in your rig will be keeping time. With the DAW running your rig via USB/Midi Firewire the whole show gets the wobbly knee syndrome.

We are a few weeks off production of a solution we've been at for 18 months.

Sample and tempo accurate Midi Clock from any DAW. And it does simultaneous Din Sync and Trigger Outs for your TR-808s/303s and Step Sequencers too.

We've been continually testing MPC-3000s running Mansell Labs Vailixi 3.50OS on our lab prototype and getting maximum 2 samples variation off perfect timing which is the limit of the MPC stability and testing anyway.

Our sync conversion between DAW and External Hardware is less than 20 microseconds firm.

Apart from sounding truly amazing - having your external hardware and DAW locked properly means you can record/overdub and have everything line up properly in the grid.

Less editing to make up for tight beats ruined by a rough clock on the way in.

There is a VST/AU Plug-In supplied with the Sync-Lock.

It runs on any DAW Host and provides sample accurate sync pulses to the Sync-Lock.

The Sync-Lock converts pulses to Midi Clock/Din and Trigs in under 20 microseconds.

From this you get grid/tempo/sample accurate sync from your DAW.

No question.

We're busy putting final touches to packaging and Plug-In graphics this week.

Check with Analogue Haven in the US or Schneiders in Europe for stock availability.

Our predicted RRP at this stage is $395 USD and that gets you:-

Universal Power Supply
Y-Adapter for Footswitch/Trigger Output
Sync-Gen Plug-In Software Installer CDRom
Owners Manual

best - David
good news!
WOW!!! Been looking for a healthy way to lock up my DAW as master.. then to a 606/Bent HR-16. Here it is! smile
Bryan B
I had an idea (not neccessarily an original one) to use Audio as a Din Clock Signal, but my first attempt failed miserably. After reading through this thread I found the great advice of using an oscillator to create the audio. I had to trim the pulse width down as small as possible then beatmatch the Frequency of the oscillator to get my 808 to match close in tempo with Ableton. Then I edited the recorded audio to have 24 pulses per quarter note. I also had to bump the volume up to the red to get it to work, but it had my 808 and 303 locked in perfect time with Ableton Live, which is a first after years of trying different converters, chaining and methods!

Thanks to everyone who posted ideas.
Forgot to mention an important point earlier people - you don't need DC Coupled or Output Modified Audio Hardware to use the Sync-Lock. She is built and designed to take standard audio signal from any audio interface or Hard Disk Recorder (or iPod for that matter - yes my test rig is an iPod!) and convert it within 20 microseconds to Sync. No need to worry about DIY modded hardware or sending nasty voltages around the studio!

Updated Webpage here with a screenshot of the Plug-In too.

Ships late October.

Best -David
An update for those interested:-

Best regards - David
Mr White
innerclock, that's what the fuck I was looking for!!! applause

thanks DGtom to show it out! applause

...I was a huge fan of the MMT8, past years I had 3 for livesets, paid how? 25 bucks? awesome price/quality ratio! hihi
Bryan B

I PM'd you about your Sync Clock software. Keep up the great work!
Suburban Bather
d'oh! I see that the release date has been pushed back. Any idea on a rough estimate of when the Sync-Lock will ship out to AH?
i know it's my old old thread, but i just wanted to say that i finally cured all of my synchronisation problems with an innerclock systems sync lock. i've had it for a while, but only had enough free time today to really get it up and running properly and WOW!!!

previously the 606 and mobius (sequencing the modular) would sync up fine via din sync, and obviously all the stuff i did internally on the pc (audiomulch) would sync to itself too, but my problem was getting reliable sync between the pc and the mobius/606/modular combo.

i tried many different configurations, pc master -> mobius slave, mobius master -> pc slave, all to no avail and seriously sloppy and terrible midi timing.

but today has been a real revelation. i now have perfect sync between audiomulch, the modular, the 606 and the mobius and it is just incredible! not only does everything sync up perfectly in real time, but it means that i will be able to get reliable overdubbing synchronisation too. i can work on tracks, record them, come back months later and know that the sample accurate sync will still be there (as long as i have made a note of the bpm in audiomulch!)

this was my last excuse NOT to be able to produce really good techno tracks. with no excuses left, expect some fun soon. wink

unfortunately i couldn't use the method of synchronisation listed in the sync-lock manual, as neither of my "daws" (audiomulch and cooledit pro) allow for easy triplet grids (long story, read the sync-lock manual if you are interested), but this shouldn't be a problem with a "regular" daw like cubase, reaper or logic etc.

luckily, they included their "sync gen" vst plugin on the cd-rom, which works fantastically in audiomulch. not only can i get reliable sync with this plugin, but for the first time in its life my 606 can achieve the insanely funky swing/shuffle (adjustable as a % no less) of its big brothers, the 808 and 909.

and i haven't even begun to play with the possibilities offered by the "patterns" and "loop lengths" yet!

now i just need a "real" analogue sequencer to be able to make good use of the trigger out too!

i am VERY interested to see what features the forthcoming sync gen 2 plugin will add!!!

great work innerclock systems!!!
I'm going to confess that I only skimmed the 4 pages of this thread, but I at least didn't notice my question being discussed. I'm wondering if any of you Sync Lock owners have attempted to sync MIDI to a trigger pulse that is changing in tempo. In short, can it accurately sync a MIDI device to an analog clock? And then will it stay in sync in response to tempo changes?

I asked David about this about a year ago, and he said it should work fine, but he never got around to posting the video he promised to demonstrate this. If it works, the Sync Lock would be a must-have for me. If it doesn't, I don't want to spend $600 finding that out.

I've been curious about this application for some time now and would be grateful for some feedback from someone who's given it a shot.

It tracks tempo changes just fine. Because the midi clock is generated purely from audio pulses, you can do all sorts of other tricks too, like swing for drum machines that don't have it, or dividing down clocks on the fly (the new Sync Gen II software makes this very easy).

I can't praise the Sync Lock enough.
Oh, wow. I guess I'm going to have to get one now. hyper Just to clarify, it treats a square wave LFO as an audio input? Thanks for your thoughts. Sounds like a tone of fun!

a square wave lfo may not do it, i haven't tried it, but as far as i'm aware (from the manual i believe), the unit can be quite finicky on the type of audio click sent to clock it.

like you already know, theoretically it should work, and you should be able to send it an audio click from the modular (under voltage control if desired), and have the midi, din sync and trigger outs all sync up just fine.

studio is still in pieces, with no pc or monitors, otherwise i'd do some experiements for you!
If you think to do so when you have it all together, I would be very curious to hear of the results. Controlling a MIDI device with an analog clock is something of a holy grail for me. Not that I need to do it at all; it just sounds fun. And people seem to ask about this a few times a year here.

It sounds like using that LFO to trigger an audio pulse for the synclock would work just fine, though.

I used to use the 'Holger Czukay' method. Overdub without listening to the previous recorded tracks, you listen to them inside your head! Throw all this sync nonsense out the window... GET ZEN YO!

Love this! Big Can and Holger Czukay fan here, think I’ll try it!

As an aside, I use Ableton as master midi clock and have so far managed to get away without a sync lock solution like USAMO and similar - I use an RME HDSPe PCIe card with 2 midi outs and it’s tight enough for me!

thumbs up
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