MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index
 FAQ & Terms of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   Wiggler RadioMW Radio   Muff Wiggler TwitterTwitter   Support the site @ PatreonPatreon 
 SearchSearch   RegisterSign up   Log inLog in 
WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

8 bus mixers
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Production Techniques  
Author 8 bus mixers
Nelson Baboon
It looks like i will have some stuff sold, and I would really like to have a 'real' mixing console, to output into my audio interface.

I'd like the flexibility of an 8 bus mixer...

My starting point is a Mackie - these seem to be available pretty readily used....

What exactly am I gaining by going more 'high end' if I am doing pretty much weird synth noise. I am willing to spend more than on the Mackie, but I want a clear notion of what I'd be gaining. I suppose that goal would be flexibility for recording through the audio interface, and capturing the best sound quality. I'm not sure that paying extra for top quality eq is really necessary for my application, but I could be convinced.

Recommendations welcome.
BugBrand
Dunno particular models, but Allen & Heath tend to live around the same prices as Mackies (I think?!) and I've always liked their mixers. Got a good sized 4-bus earlier this year for not too much $$$.
Nelson Baboon
Thanks - some of their mixers tend to live at much higher prices too....but they generally have a very good rep (I think). This is not an area that I know too much about.
bphenix
the areas of main differences with mixers are pre-amps and eqs quality along with the harder to quantify summing 'sound'.

you probably don't care about the pre-amps. for eqs, i prefer the allen&health over the mackie in the range you are talking about. some mixers handle mixing multiple hot signals better than others. with a lower quality mixer, as the mixer is pushed it starts to sound squashed. some call it muddy. at one time, i would have classified the mackie sound as slightly dark. i haven't used anything they have made in the past 10 years so i don't know if this is a quality that can be attributed to them but i did sell my mackie 8 bus for a A&H GL2200 and was very happy with the upgrade.

if you don't need pre-amps or eqs, a great option is the Speck Ultramix. you can find sometimes find them for pretty reasonable rates used. some don't like that they use knobs rather than faders but it would be a nice fit along side your serge panels.
Nelson Baboon
Curiously, I have an old, original version ultramix. I'd much prefer a console that's laid out on my desk with faders, but my primary reservation with it is that it distorts very easily, and the volume that it sends to my interface is very low. I'd need to pay him to get it all fixed up, but I'm not sure I want to throw money at it.

I've never used a mixer with good eq's, so I'm not sure how useful I'd find them....
abstraktor
I was thinking the same thing about a mixer recently. I'm happy enough routing the synths directly into a Profire 2626 -and can even softsend to a TC M one FX, but I miss the hands on and EQ sculpt of a good old console...and an 8 bus one would be cool for recording non midi sequenced multis simultaneously.
Thing is though, I've set my sights on something way above what I can afford just now. I've used Mackies and Soundcrafts in semi-pro setups but the sound of pro consoles is noticeably a step up.....and there's little point in using anything else if summing is also something you want to do.
This is probably out of your price range too, but have a look at the Toft Audio desks.....the 16/8 comes in about £3000, but there is a 4 channel mini thing that has direct outs on each channel at about £1300.
A boy can dream I suppose.
Nelson Baboon
Well, actually, there are some tofts on ebay at what look like reasonable prices. Once you get into that price range, there are other choices also (allen & heath, others?)

If my $ comes through I could probably do something like this, though a new toft would be just out of range unless I spent everything I had on it.
abstraktor
A Toft isnt an SSL or Audient, but its better than an Allen and Heath - I've used A&H's and they're ok but a Toft has better EQ and a velvet sound quality (if you know what I mean). A+H mixers seem to be aimed more at live sound these days anyway (unless you go up to broadcast ranges).
Wonder if there's any Toft owners here on MW?
Nelson Baboon
hmmm - but there seems to be a class of A&H mixers that is in the same price range as toft. Don't have model #'s in my head...is that what you mean by the broadcast ranges?
lessavyfav
I have a soundcraft spirit rac pac mixer which I got pretty cheap used. It is not high fi but it sounds pretty good even running hot and is super flexible. I got it because I was wanting more sub mixes without going over 24 tracks in. It has 6 subs, 2 pre fader and 4 returns, 2 stereo. Last week I saw at my local show what I think is a monitor mixers, a lot are smaller but with lots of sub mix options. My dream is every piece of gear always routed to any processor at any time...
abstraktor
had a look at the website - nah, their latest broadcast desks look like budget jobs, There's only one model that I can see that is aimed at studio recording, and it has AD/DA cards in it. The rest are live FOH or Foldback consoles.
Thing is, I'm sure some of the live consoles are great, but if its pristine analogue signal paths you want, then a studio console is better. Older A&H consoles tend to be a bit hissy as well, from my experience.
I've seen that Toft have the Chemical Bros endorsing their desks, but I wont hold that against them too much evil
(for the record I had a MixWizard at home back in the mid 90's- which was a very flexible desk but developed serious issues after a few years and wasnt worth the cost of repair (Allen and Heath's words, not mine!))
Morley
A&H make great sounding desks IMHO. If you can find an older Saber, they are excellent. The new ZED ones are good value.
Mackie I never liked for some reason.
Speck are really good as mentioned by bphenix

I could't work without subgroups. My D&R has floating groups which mean any channels can be group masters and it's very useful
If you can find one used, they are great value. Mine is probably overkill, but I couldn't resist a bargain. Full patch bay, 32 mono channels, 12 stereo channels, 8 aux, full meter bridge and stand in top condition for €3000 can't be sniffed at.
Nelson Baboon
Fuck. I have someone (whom I greatly respect) saying that I should get a mackie or something, and that the difference in sound won't do anything for my insane noise stuff...

On the other hand, I find myself very tempted by:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Toft-ATB24-ATB-24-Analog-Mixing-Console-24-Channel -/290583097296?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a81a2fd0 (though 24 channels is probably overkill, and it doesn't have the meter bridge, and do I really need one, etc)

or
http://cgi.ebay.com/TOFT-SERIES-ATB16-SERIES-II-/180702998695?pt=LH_De faultDomain_0&hash=item2a12bcf0a7

Any thoughts? Sequencers I'm confident about. Something like this, I"m not....
dkcg
Those Tofts are nice, I know little about this stuff too, but 24 channels is gonna take up a LOT of space, plus you may want a couple patchbays, which means rack space.

I have a Mackie, CR1604. It was used on tour by BlindMellon to write and use for the guitarist. It's very no frills, sounds fine, but takes up so much space that I rarely use it. I end up using the mixer in the Motus with a CMLabs Motormix running Cuemix 99.5% of the time. The EQ section in my Mackie is kinda "meh". I'd rather have parametric EQs on each channel, but that's only gonna happen by moving over that decimal point on hoe much I spent.

What about a rack mixer, w/o EQs or Mic pres. Although those also seem to be either cheap and almost disposable or super expensive boutique items.

I'd love this thing or something like it eventually:

http://www.thermionicculture.com/products/fatbustard.html
Nelson Baboon
ah - the fatbustard looks cool.

I really want the ability to easily use faders to bring stuff in and out. A line mixer just doesn't seem convenient for that purpose to me.

The 16 channel toft that looked attractive sold as I was chatting with the guy. Damn. It was really nicely price, and that's likely why.

I might go for the 24 channel. I'll have to look at the dimensions. I might be able to do it by moving some stuff around.
Hainbach
The Tofts do sound nice, especially for the money they cost. I have looked inside one or two and there where some issues with panel alignment and the way everything fit together. Not very precise. Still, a good sounding boad.

If I where to out of the box, I would get an old Studer and have that refurbished. These are high quality, very transparent and good sounding little desks. Little wonder every techno producer in Berlin scans eBay like mad for these little wonders.
essex sound lab
Nelson Baboon wrote:
The 16 channel toft that looked attractive sold as I was chatting with the guy. Damn. It was really nicely price, and that's likely why.


I watched it go last night, and wondered if you were the one that had picked it up. Damn...yes, great price.

I'll be curious to see what you do as I'm weighing similar choices.
Rozzer
Not quite a Toft, but Soundtracs made some very nice 8 bus mixers which go for the same prices as Mackies do. They are generally regarded as far superior though. I have a Soundtracs Topaz 24:8:2 and have no complaints at all. The EQ is very usable and 'warm' sounding. The pres are good but not amazing (good enough for synths and drum machines, maybe not for vocals or anything with extreme detail).

For the money I paid (£500), it's an unbelievable bargain. That's £21 per analogue channel strip. Guinness ftw!
CalvaryBand
The unit I have, the Sony SRP-V110, is a great mixer. It sports 8-buss sends, 8 aux sends and sweep-able mids. I managed to scoop it up a while back in some corner of eBay, certainly not the music section if I remember correctly. They're not common, not by any stretch of the imagination as they were about $2k and only available via Sony's Pro Audio division. A link to the manual is here. If you're still looking for one, I'd be up for selling mine simply because I've gotta make my setup more mobile.
Nelson Baboon
Don Hassler (whom I greatly respect and is a member here) is telling me that I probably won't notice a difference given the music I do between something like a toft, and a much cheaper thing like a mackie. This is really what I wonder about.

I like to record stuff 'live' and then not add much processing afterwards. I can't see how having some decent eq on the way in can be a bad thing. But I have no experience with good mixing boards, and certainly I've never been in a situation where I can a/b them.

Then you get into shit like this - I should have just jumped on that toft that sold yesterday. The others aren't as good dealwise - there is another for fairly cheap, but it has 'scratch pots'. He says you can just clean them, but then - why doesn't he do that before he sells it? That sounds like bad news to me, but again, this is not something I have experience with...
essex sound lab
Nelson Baboon wrote:
Then you get into shit like this - I should have just jumped on that toft that sold yesterday.


I hear you. I became mildly interested after you posted the link, thought "wow...great price, how can you go wrong?" and then <boop!> it was gone.

Quote:
The others aren't as good dealwise - there is another for fairly cheap, but it has 'scratch pots'. He says you can just clean them, but then - why doesn't he do that before he sells it?


I find that pretty annoying, too. Same with missing knobs and sliders that are "easy to find". The lack of interest/effort on the seller's part causes me concern about other issues that may have slid. And who wants to buy something that they immediately need to go through hoops to make right?

Here are a couple of more listings that you may find interesting. Not insanely great deals by contemporary measure, but pretty amazing when you consider what you get for your money with older consoles.

Soundtracs Solo Logic 32x8x2

http://cgi.ebay.com/Soundtracs-Solo-Logic-Recording-Console-/330595717 651#ht_500wt_1187

Not sure what your space issues are, and it's likely overkill, but this looks pretty sweet:

Allen and Heath Saber Plus 40 w/ patchbay

http://www.soundbroker.com/CONSOLE_RECORDING/?listingid=45249

Both would be pricey to ship, I would guess. Doesn't keep me from daydreaming though. I'm pretty seriously considering the Soundtracs but there's a lot of questions to ask.
Nelson Baboon
The allen & heath is obviously too big.

I might be able to fit the soundtracks if I move some other stuff around.

But how good are these really? I've never heard of them before.....how old are these? The seller doesn't have much feedback, etc....and obviously it would need to be packed fantastically.

Likely if it is a really good mixer at that price it will go quickly, which means that I should research. But then have to leave for work. Damn.
hiawog
if you haven't looked at them, do check out soundcraft desks. i intern at a recording studio and i've gotten/been forced to try a number of different desks, often when working remote. to my ears the soundcraft boards sound better dollar for dollar than allen and heath, mackie (although the onyx series are nice; i've only used one once), and others. i've never tried toft sad , didn't really like orem, and really like the neotek we have at the studio.

i'm pretty young and inexperienced, but i just thought i'd share my thoughts. my ears aren't golden either, so add a pinch of salt.
Nelson Baboon
I've heard great things about the neotek, but they are super expensive...
hiawog
i was told we scored ours used, but no it wasn't cheap. it's a pleasure - you can crank the eqs and they still sound musical (+8 @8k baby), and the pres are very good. the chief engineer of my studio told me a story where he was talking to rupert neve who asked him what desk he worked on. neve responded, "oh, very nice console. not as nice as mine... but very nice."
essex sound lab
Nelson Baboon wrote:
But how good are these really? I've never heard of them before.....how old are these?


I can't speak to either one specifically, other than the generally positive comments about them from others. They seemed to fit the bill (other than the A&H being huge and heavy) from a functionality and price-performance standpoint.

Thought I'd point them out while they're available. I need to do my research as well.

The A&H is tempting as I now have the space for it, but I'm a bit reluctant to spend that much on something that could end up either as overkill or a stopgap depending on what I do in the future. If it's been gone through by a reputable tech, well that's obviously a good thing. Needs to be validated.

The Soundtracs could always make for a cost-effective submixer if I go upmarket at some point. The lack of maintenance info on it makes for a lot of questions, though.
essex sound lab
Nelson Baboon wrote:
I've heard great things about the neotek, but they are super expensive...


An ex-GF of mine dated their former president, so I have an irrational, visceral reaction that would prohibit me from getting one. If I could afford it anyway...
consumed
you're aiming down the sights of something ive been thinking a lot about for years.

ive always been, and continue to be, a hardware guy. ive used mixers almost entirely for line mixing only. ive used many mackie desks over the years (1604, 1202, 1402, 24.4 vlz, 16x8 buss). by far the 8 buss was my favorite because the eq was most flexible, with two sweepable bands, one parametric. however, i never got along with any eq on any of my mackies. through the years i learned never to boost, only to cut.

last year i sold my mackie mixers and picked up an old 20 x 8 ramsa mixer. the sound is noticeably different and pleasing to my ears. the three sweepable eq bands are broad, very non-surgical but completely different in quality to mackie. i sometimes boost frequencies and they dont sound nasty like mackie did. the board is much less of a swiss army knife than the mackies were for routing, but i didnt need all of those possibilities as i added patch bays to my setup.

this might sound kind of stupid, but im always interested in how a mixer clips at the input, and ill play with the eq to see what qualities i can get out of it. i am very familiar with the sound of the mackie clipping at the input...its not bad and can be useful, but it always sounds the same. its very very similar to the sound of the doepfer a-119 overloading.

in contrast, the ramsa has an incredible sound quality when driven up into overload. it is so sweet, a gentle overdrive sound quite a ways up the trimpot that adds a lot of girth and tonal shaping possibilities when the eq is manipulated. it feels like a gentle compression is in play as well.

the ramsa is huge though, and weighs like 100 pounds. im starting to have some problems with it now and it needs to be serviced. and for family reasons, i recently decided to downsize, so ill be selling or storing the ramsa for later use. i needed to get smaller and be able to get a clean recording into the computer quickly.

so i recently picked up a midas venice 160. its only a 4-bus with 8 mono and 4 stereo channels, but the eq immediately blew me away...ive never used anything like it. it has two sweepable eqs, none parametric, but you can get very surgical with it. eq boosts dont sound squawky at all...im still trying to find the language to help describe it so forgive the lack of description here.

overdriving the venice sounds a lot like the mackies did...nothing to write home about. but i am very pleased with the flexibility and overall build and sound quality of the venice. ive found that i can live without a meter bridge (as i used and loved on my ramsa and 8 bus mackie). they are not essential unless (i imagine) you are monitoring very dynamic signals and need to see stuff that might be hiding low on the board while recording (im thinking microphones here).

/ramble
Soy Sos
Those large format boards are interesting, sometimes contain higher grade components, but are literally huge and heavy. How many channels do you actually need and does it have to be 8 bus? I toyed around with the idea of a
older console for a while with Neotek, Toft, Trident....etc and settled on the 14x4x2 Allen and Heath and a 6 space lunch box with API, Purple and Speckand lots of patch bay. The A+H isn't super fancy, but it's clean and suits my needs perfectly. I'm very glad I went in this direction.
Ranxerox
Nelson Baboon wrote:


I might be able to fit the soundtracks if I move some other stuff around.

But how good are these really? I've never heard of them before.....how old are these?


I used to have this precise model of desk. They came out in the early 90s and were mostly sold in the UK - original retail price was £14,000!!! It sounded great, but was a bit noisy.

-EQs were very good - not surgical, but effective and pleasing to the ear; sort of 'crispy' sounding, if that makes any sense.
-The channels are separate circuitboards connected by ribbon cables- basically these are exactly the same channel boards as they used on the modular 'Megas' series mixers.
-Faders were a bit cheap feeling, but also cheap to replace if they failed.
-6 auxes, aux 1 fixed pre-fade. Good channel facilities overall.
-Dedicated bus outputs and inserts, plus the channel direct outs could also replicate the bus outs, which was handy in some recording situations.
-Mine was the one with on-board MIDI mute automation, controlled by a Zilog Z80 processor on-board. I never used it much, but it was good for capturing mute 'snapshots' which you could dial up during a mix.
-There was another version that had full automation via VCAs on every channel - the SOLO MIDI, it was called...

Soundtracs were a mid-level professional manufacturer, similar to DDA or Amek. They started to make more 'pro-sumer' mixers towards the end of the 90s (the Topaz series), then abandoned analogue studio mixers altogether and started making high-end digital live-sound boards (the Digico series).

I got rid of mine because it was too big - about 3.5 feet deep, and almost 5 feet long, there are considerably smaller 8-bus desks out there. It ate up the 'sweet spot' in my studio and left me nowehere to put my other gear within convenient reach while still being able to monitor properly.

If you don't need a big desk with loads of inputs for performing maximal live mix-downs, then why go the 8-bus route?

If you don't mind my suggesting, why not consider a smaller 4-bus desk instead? The Amek BCII or Soundcraft Delta desks are fairly ubiquitous, but smaller and more practical, while still offer decent quality, track-count, and the benefits of proper faders, modular construction and subgroup mixing. Just a thought.
essex sound lab
Ranxerox - thanks for the personal insight into the strengths and weaknesses of the Soundtracs. Really appreciated.

The unit for sale on eBay is a Solo Logic which I believe has the automation and VCAs on each channel, based on my brief research.

Seems like a pretty inexpensive way to get a mid-level desk, subject to caveats about age and possible condition...as well as the heft factor that you cite.

But yes, clearly a very different beast than a compact mixer with subgroup mixing and good routing.
Johnisfaster
lessavyfav wrote:
My dream is every piece of gear always routed to any processor at any time...


patch bay?
essex sound lab
Johnisfaster wrote:
lessavyfav wrote:
My dream is every piece of gear always routed to any processor at any time...


patch bay?


Does anybody else find this pithy retort humorous when placed immediately next to Johnisfaster's avatar?
Nelson Baboon
I got used to having each of the 8 buses of the speck plugged into my metric halo 2882. That's the main reason.


Ranxerox wrote:
Nelson Baboon wrote:


I might be able to fit the soundtracks if I move some other stuff around.

But how good are these really? I've never heard of them before.....how old are these?


I used to have this precise model of desk. They came out in the early 90s and were mostly sold in the UK - original retail price was £14,000!!! It sounded great, but was a bit noisy.

-EQs were very good - not surgical, but effective and pleasing to the ear; sort of 'crispy' sounding, if that makes any sense.
-The channels are separate circuitboards connected by ribbon cables- basically these are exactly the same channel boards as they used on the modular 'Megas' series mixers.
-Faders were a bit cheap feeling, but also cheap to replace if they failed.
-6 auxes, aux 1 fixed pre-fade. Good channel facilities overall.
-Dedicated bus outputs and inserts, plus the channel direct outs could also replicate the bus outs, which was handy in some recording situations.
-Mine was the one with on-board MIDI mute automation, controlled by a Zilog Z80 processor on-board. I never used it much, but it was good for capturing mute 'snapshots' which you could dial up during a mix.
-There was another version that had full automation via VCAs on every channel - the SOLO MIDI, it was called...

Soundtracs were a mid-level professional manufacturer, similar to DDA or Amek. They started to make more 'pro-sumer' mixers towards the end of the 90s (the Topaz series), then abandoned analogue studio mixers altogether and started making high-end digital live-sound boards (the Digico series).

I got rid of mine because it was too big - about 3.5 feet deep, and almost 5 feet long, there are considerably smaller 8-bus desks out there. It ate up the 'sweet spot' in my studio and left me nowehere to put my other gear within convenient reach while still being able to monitor properly.

If you don't need a big desk with loads of inputs for performing maximal live mix-downs, then why go the 8-bus route?

If you don't mind my suggesting, why not consider a smaller 4-bus desk instead? The Amek BCII or Soundcraft Delta desks are fairly ubiquitous, but smaller and more practical, while still offer decent quality, track-count, and the benefits of proper faders, modular construction and subgroup mixing. Just a thought.
Pentachoron
Don't know if you take into consideration where a product is manufactured, but I believe all Mackie gear is made in China, and perhaps the majority of Toft's products are also made there. A couple of years ago I started looking into the Toft ATB 16, until I saw it was made in China. I'm really not interested in paying $5000 for an 8 bus mixer assembled via labor exploitation, and the resulting uncertainty in materials and workmanship quality. But semi-politics aside, as a member wrote above, he wasn't impressed with the quality of what he saw in one Toft mixer when opening it up. In my experience, once Mackie was bought, and shipped production to China, the quality of various models went down noticeably.

As of at least a few years ago, I believe some, if not most A&H mixers were still made in the U.K.
Nelson Baboon
ugh.....

maybe I'll just go all software and sell my analog gear. So much less to think about.
Nelson Baboon
Somewhat anticlimactic, but I decided to try cavalryband's sony mixer (see page 1 of this thread). the worst case is that I don't like it and I will have more $ to spend this winter if I want to remedy that, or simply upgrade. But it very well might be perfect for my deviant usage.
ersatzplanet
I have Mackies in my studio. I used to work there so got them cheap. They are all older ones though. The newer ones are pretty sweet and of course some of them can have the audio interface built right in. The Onyx Series can stream 16 channels at once to your DAW via firewire. There has always been the comments that Mackie mixers are sterile sounding but that just means flat to me. The Onyx mixers are supposed to have "British style" Perkins EQs in them too, whatever that is supposed to mean. I think you may have to go to a store with a portable player and some very familiar tunes on it and just compare mixers yourself. The different sound qualities of a mixer are very subjective. I can attest to the build quality and durability of Mackie mixers though. You pick one up and you can immediately tell they are very solid units.
-James
Pentachoron
Nelson Baboon wrote:
Somewhat anticlimactic, but I decided to try cavalryband's sony mixer (see page 1 of this thread). the worst case is that I don't like it and I will have more $ to spend this winter if I want to remedy that, or simply upgrade. But it very well might be perfect for my deviant usage.


I’m late with this post then, but I’ll go ahead and offer it, for the reference of other members:

I’m not a “MADE IN THE USA!!!” “patriot”, but after spending more time than I’d prefer in the last hour searching for new audio mixers that might possibly not be manufactured in China, this is the best (only) lead I came up with:

http://www.carvinguitars.com/proaudio/mixers.php

Do any members have personal experience with Carvin mixers?
splitpoint
If you want to go low-rent: I've been really happy with my Yamaha RM-800. It was Yamaha's competitor to the Mackie. I picked up the 24 channel version for $400 and it was one of the best purchases that I've made. It's huge, it's heavy, but it's also clean and quiet. Here's the review from back in the day:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/apr96/yamaharm800.html
CalvaryBand
You'll enjoy the Sony.

The only thing I've had fail from me made in Japan was constructed ages ago. The Sony was made in Japan like basically all of the stuff in my studio sans some German and American stuff. I have had no luck with Chinese stuff, nor newer Mackie stuff in general.
thetwlo
also, as someone else mentioned the Soundcraft 200b, although older mixers will likely require at least a tune up. The Toft looks great but I heard the early models had some issues, hopefully all better now. As for a difference, for your type of work I suspect you WILL notice a difference over something like a Mackie. They will have a very different character when over driven, of course they'll have a bit of a different character anyway, esp. with the EQ. If you can something with input transformers that will help also, or it's not a bad idea to hit a nice DI first(Jensen/Radial) which will give you more headroom and you can saturate, and then even use the pre-amp(or mixer's pre if it's nice) to add more color.
bphenix
If you haven't found anything yet, you may want to look for the WZ20:8:2.
http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/pages/DiscontinuedProductDetail s.aspx?productId=WZ2082

Rackmount, 20 inputs, 8 bus mixer. I was visiting a friend last week in Seattle and he had one and loved it (he downsized from an A&H GL3).
hbc
bphenix wrote:
If you haven't found anything yet, you may want to look for the WZ20:8:2.
http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/pages/DiscontinuedProductDetail s.aspx?productId=WZ2082

Rackmount, 20 inputs, 8 bus mixer. I was visiting a friend last week in Seattle and he had one and loved it (he downsized from an A&H GL3).


I've got one of these and it is awesome. A lot of mixer in a small package. Only problem with mine is that I tore one of the ribbon cables that connect the back to the desk. It's a weird flat ribbon. Trying to sort that out now...
sonicwarrior
Hainbach wrote:
The Tofts do sound nice, especially for the money they cost. I have looked inside one or two and there where some issues with panel alignment and the way everything fit together. Not very precise.


How long ago was this? Were these Toft mixers from the first batch that is being said to have had build issues (see https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=888703#888703)?

I'm searching for an upgrade on my old Behringer MX-2642 Mixer but I don't want to trade crap with crap and when reading through forums almost everything seems to be crap when you can't spend 50K or don't have the space for an old heavy console. hmmm.....
Hainbach
sonicwarrior wrote:
Hainbach wrote:
The Tofts do sound nice, especially for the money they cost. I have looked inside one or two and there where some issues with panel alignment and the way everything fit together. Not very precise.


How long ago was this? Were these Toft mixers from the first batch that is being said to have had build issues (see https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=888703#888703)?

I'm searching for an upgrade on my old Behringer MX-2642 Mixer but I don't want to trade crap with crap and when reading through forums almost everything seems to be crap when you can't spend 50K or don't have the space for an old heavy console. hmmm.....


That was from the first run that hit Germany, don't know how long ago. I have no idea if they ironed out the problems.
Hainbach
Just had a look at the Toft website - looks like they upgraded the consoles.
sonicwarrior
Great, thanks for the information. thumbs up
calaveras
Thought I'd necro bump this thread as I am going through a similar dilemma.
Part of me want's to get a really clean line mixer like the SSL.
The other part of me wants an old Soundcraft.
The only thing my two personalities can agree on is that my 40+ year old back doesn't want a PM1000 again. Nothing that weighs more than I can carry myself up a flight of stairs.

(I'm mostly just posting because it says page 1 of 2 and I can't get to the 2nd page).
MindMachine
I think an old Speck and Speck Buss 8 (or maybe just a Speck Buss 8) would work. Or Speck Xtramix.
calaveras
Don't the Speck mixers not have direct outs?
I'd checked them out before and they seemed really solid. Also very compact and feature dense. Like every square inch is an input or output. But there was some key thing that they didn't have that I was looking for in a mixer.
calaveras
Specks are great. Very feature rich, input dense mixers.
But I get the impression they are meant for keyboard rigs, not recording.
I don't think they have direct outs or tape sends per input channel.
MindMachine
From the Speck SSM archive page: "The rear of each input channel has stereo input jacks, and stereo direct output jacks.'

You are correct. They are line mixers meant for Synthesizers and Samplers - thus SSM (synth sampler mixer). Some of them were made with microphone preamps. Each one was basically made to order, so there are stereo, mono, mic pre, etc. versions. It is mainly a stereo out board with individual outs, mainly intended for live use.

I have the SSM, SSM Expander and Assign 28 8 Buss mixer. I record improvised live electronics so it is ideal for me. 8 effects sends is a good thing.

calaveras
Now I remember. I went to the Speck site and they seem to only make the X-Sum and LiLo now?
rockmanrock
I've been mixer swapping lately. I had a Soundcraft Spirit Rac-pac since the 90s and it was quite alright, but I got the urge to get a 'big' mixer.

After years of "live synths to a stereo mix" approach, I have decided to embrace multitracking, so I wanted a recording mixer. If not a recording mixer, a general/live mixer with plenty of channels and direct outs. Ideally I would have got a Spirit Studio 24:8:2 or a Ghost but fitting any 8 bus in my room would have chewed up most of the space so that was a no-go.

I've ended up with a Behringer MX3242X. It's a 16 into 4 bus recording mixer, based on their MX8000/9000 Eurodesk. Same EQ (with bypass) and full size faders. Meters on everything. Honking great 2U linear power supply. 16 channels with a tape return that can be flipped to the channel fader. 4 groups with inserts. Six sends with masters. 4 stereo returns. Virtualizer effects normalled to one send/return.

I've not got it all set up yet, but first impressions are that it's going to do the job. I had to clean the connectors on the ribbon cables to get some channels back. The channel gain pots on the main board are looped to the preamps on the jack connectors board, so any extra resistance in the connection means very low gain - a 'dead' channel'. The main appeal is the size, 19" wide and 53cm deep. A scaled down 'big' mixer - exactly what I wanted! It can even be expanded with another mixer via a D connector that has all the main ins/outs on it.

I've recapped the power supply and bought a quieter fan. Any repairs to the main PCBs are going to be dicey, the traces look very thin. Mostly SMT with through hole electrolytic/film caps.

Here are my notes on other mixers that I considered. Most of them too big. Quite a few Behringers! They're all through-hole "motherboard" construction, a pain to repair but not impossible.

Behringer MX3282a

101cm wide, 53cm deep. Too wide really, but not too deep.
8 bus. Lots of channels for gear or to use as split desk.
24 mono + 4 stereo channels.
No direct outs. Not a proper recording mixer.
Send masters.
4 stereo returns, 2 full featured and 2 simple.
Basic EQ. No EQ bypass.

Behringer MX2442a

72cm wide, 50cm deep
16 mono plus 4 stereo channels.
Send masters.
2 stereo returns with level and pan.
28 inputs plus 2 track.
4 groups with inserts.
No direct outs. Not enough channels to leave DAW returns plumbed in.
Not a recording mixer.
Basic EQ, no bypass.

A&H GS3 / Thatched Cottage S2

Great specs.
8 groups.
Inline recording design.
EQ on inline monitor returns.
Individual channel PCBs.
79cm x 72cm deep.


Alesis Studio 32

Full para eq with switch.
16 tape returns.
No Group inserts.
'Bad' pres.

Spirit Studio

Tape returns.
Good EQ (no bypass though).
8 groups
16 Channel 88 x 894 x 771.5
24 Channel 88 x 1174 x 771.5
32 Channel 88 x 1454 x 771.5
Too bloody big.

Behringer MX8000/9000/SX4882.

Great spec. MX probably better PSU.
940 x 750mm (same for both models?)
A fucker to repair.
Sockets on top AND the back, so would take up another 2/3 inches of desk space.

Soundcraft Ghost 24

106cm x 78cm
Too big.

Behringer XL2400

705 x 540mm
16 mono, 4 stereo = 24 input channels
Dir outs on monos.
6 sends. 2 monitor, 2 fx, 2 aux.
4 stereo aux returns.
4 groups with inserts.
Quite big, and not a recording mixer.


Soundcraft MPMi20

Individual channel PCBs with nutted pots.
ONE group.
Not enough aux sends.
Not a recording mixer.

Soundcraft Delta

16:4 is 80cm by 67cm
24:4 is 105cm by 67cm
Inputs on the back.
Not a recording mixer.

Soundtracs Topaz

Uses the same crappy jacks that I didn't like on my Rac-pac.
Motherboard and non nutted pots. Not good for a console this size and cost.
Good specs though? EQ on inline monitors.

Seck 1882

99.5cm x 46cm. Bit wide.
Motherboard design. 6-channel blocks. TL072 and 5532, like Soundcraft.
8 groups with inserts
No mute buttons!
18 channels with monitors, so that's 36 total.
Monitors can be patched to one of the 4 stereo returns.
Spares from http://www.gbaudio.co.uk/data/seck.htm
Review http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/seck-1282-mixer/1648

Tascam 2516

77cm x 64cm
EQ seems disliked. Weird groups.
M2600 lot better.
MindMachine
^ Awesome write up. Hopefully your efforts benefit more than a few. Genuinely nice to take the time. we're not worthy

That Seck looks so dense.

I have been trying to learn my Korg D888 digital recorder and am considering actually using a laptop to record to, but I am slow to learn new shit. Congrats on the multi-track step.

With technology I'm still all:

rockmanrock
MindMachine wrote:
^ Awesome write up. Hopefully your efforts benefit more than a few. Genuinely nice to take the time. we're not worthy


Thanks!

MindMachine wrote:

That Seck looks so dense.


As used by Autechre! My Rac-pac was based on the Seck stuff so if it sounds like that it should be alright. Most of these mixers have some weird features though. My Rac-pac had 4 groups but no group inserts, and the channels had to go through the groups to get to the main mix (fixed on Behringer's MX2642a copy!). With this Seck, there are a load of buttons for assigning to groups but no mute buttons! And the tape returns have to be patched to an aux return if they are used as extra inputs and heard in the main mix. On other mixers that is just a button push away. The shallow depth is good though, no connectors on the rear so it can be shoved up against a wall, and there's room left at the front of a standard desk for a computer keyboard. A computer screen can then hover over the mixer with one of those gas/spring arms. I've got one of those lined up to go over the Behringer.

MindMachine wrote:

I have been trying to learn my Korg D888 digital recorder and am considering actually using a laptop to record to, but I am slow to learn new shit. Congrats on the multi-track step.

With technology I'm still all:

[img]https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/userpix2
/1267_untitled_41.png[/img]


Yes, it's a different approach for me. My "live to 2 track" mixes have never been balanced or structured right, so with this set-up the plan is that I could do a live jam and capture it multitrack, then edit it ITB and mix it OTB.

This all started when I decided to clean my room and gear. I ripped all my cabling out and then got carried away! I've got a load of patchbays to solder now. The whole project has chewed up so much time but hopefully now it will not change and I can focus on the music. Your Korg looks like a neat self-contained box. There are so many ways to approach it all these days.
Ranxerox
Bit of a necro thing here, funny reading back over it - I missed my old Soundtracs Solo MIDI so much that I recently bought another. It's a 16 channel frame, but retains the 8 buses and all other features of the 32 channel I used to own. And the weight- almost did myself in lifting the thing...

Got a new blue dog PSU coming for it, we'll see if that tidies up the noise side of things. Always liked the EQ, also something about the mix bus seems to glue the mix together nicely.
DJMaytag
Does one have to go "modular" to get what I'm looking for?

24 channels
8 busses
Direct outs on each channel
EQ not needed (preferable without, actually)
Simple controls: pan, phase, HPF, aux sends

Basically a Mackie 8-Bus sans the EQ section. I have a Mackie 24-8, but DAMN is it big...
widdly
Why don't you want EQ? Most mixers let you switch it out. I find it is pretty essential for getting a decent mix.
DJMaytag
widdly wrote:
Why don't you want EQ? Most mixers let you switch it out. I find it is pretty essential for getting a decent mix.

I’d rather have EQ’s in my rack. The size of a Mackie 8-Bus could almost be halved if the EQ section was scrapped.
flts
The first one that came to my mind was Speck Xtramix or two X-Sums, but the first one is discontinued and neither them exactly matches the spec. However, if you're specifically looking for compact size, then those could be worth checking out quickly...
DJMaytag
Speck’s LiLo might be pretty close to what I want, but it’s still pretty big and that $10k price tag though...

It’s pretty crazy that this things makes a Neve 8816 look affordable, and FWIW, what I have in mind is closer to a summing mixer than a full fledged console.
MindMachine
edit - Never mind... 8 busses required. Some old Teac line mixers have cue outs and 4-8 busses, but... large.

DJMaytag wrote:
Speck’s LiLo might be pretty close to what I want, but it’s still pretty big and that $10k price tag though...

It’s pretty crazy that this things makes a Neve 8816 look affordable, and FWIW, what I have in mind is closer to a summing mixer than a full fledged console.


http://www.speck.com/xtramix/xmix_2.html

Maybe this?

The old Rolands like the M240 or M160?

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1024&bih=629&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=ApTeW8 yhL8mW0wKaxLWoCQ&q=roland+m240+mixer&oq=roland+m240+mixer&gs_l=img.3.. 0i24.67004.70301..70519...0.0..0.139.613.2j4......1....1..gws-wiz-img. ......0i7i30j0i8i7i30.US4TP9rq63Y
DJMaytag
MindMachine wrote:
http://www.speck.com/xtramix/xmix_2.html

Maybe this?

Yeah, that’s pretty damn sweet (and close enough), but discontinued and hard to find for sale under $2k.
Midiot
I dream of a Speck Xtramix, but they rarely appear for sale (used).

I'm thinking of the Speck X-sum plus an external "passive monitor controller" that has dual outputs.... so the second set of outputs can be routed through outboard effects, and back into 2 channels of the Speck.

A patchbay can help a lot here, too.

Here is a thread on Gearsluts, where the owner of Speck suggests some routing possibilities....

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/353549-aux -bussing-speck-x-sum.html

.
Midiot
BTW... if you are looking for a "quality" mixer or summing solution, check-out Vintage King 's website....
....even if just to be aware of what's out there.

https://vintageking.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=summing+mixer
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Production Techniques  
Page 1 of 3
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group