Envelope Generators With Freerun option?

Anything modular synth related that is not format specific.

Moderators: lisa, luketeaford, Kent, Joe.

Post Reply
goom
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 808
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:03 pm

Envelope Generators With Freerun option?

Post by goom » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:48 am

I'd like to have a freerun EG option. This will allow the EG to continue it's whole ADSR cycle even if the gate is removed before the cycle is complete. It would be best to have it as a switchable (on-off) function.

Does such a beast exist in the modular world? If one doesn't exist, would it be possible to build a helper circuit to mod an existing EG. I'm using MOTM and Oakley EGs.

User avatar
diophantine
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2292
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:50 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

Post by diophantine » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:00 am

I suppose it would need to be something like Korg's ADHSR, as found on the MS-10 and MS-20, where H is the "hold time": basically time it adds onto the input gate length.

Otherwise, the EG's "S" portion doesn't know how long to run (and would, by default, be zero).

I'm not sure of any modular EG that provides this explicitly.

The Universal Event Generator could give you the equivalent of an ADHSR, but it would be on 100% of the time (unless I'm forgetting a mode on there).

User avatar
e-grad
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3316
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:55 am
Location: Berlin

Post by e-grad » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:01 am

That's not possible for an ADSR which needs a gate for the sustain.

All stages are time based except for the sustain stage which determines the output level. The sustain's time is dictated by the gate length minus the attack and decay stages; the output level during the sustain stage is set by the sustain pot.

User avatar
e-grad
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3316
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:55 am
Location: Berlin

Post by e-grad » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:08 am

diophantine beat me to it.

The non-Euro Blacet EG01 has a free run mode which is two stages (AD) only. You might be interested in the online manual:

http://www.blacet.com/EGmanualBasic.pdf

User avatar
diophantine
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2292
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:50 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

Post by diophantine » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:22 am

Also, I'm thinking freerunning isn't the right feature name here, as that is generally used for a looping (lfo) mode. (The Oakley has this for A/D too.)

User avatar
e-grad
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3316
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:55 am
Location: Berlin

Post by e-grad » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:23 am

diophantine wrote:Also, I'm thinking freerunning isn't the right feature name here, as that is generally used for a looping (lfo) mode. (The Oakley has this for A/D too.)
True. Free running should be independent from any trig/gate.

User avatar
giorgio
NITE MIND
Posts: 2459
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: BRAND NEW YORK

Post by giorgio » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:42 am

MATHS
▲✌♡✂☃☂☁☀☻☹☺♢✄✐☒☠☣☢☤☎✇✈✖▼

User avatar
sduck
experimental use of gravity
Posts: 13684
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:03 pm
Location: Vortepexaion, TN, USA

Post by sduck » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:04 am

The best thing for your format currently that is available prebuilt is the UEG - no, it's not looping 100% of the time, it can also work as a regular eg but with more stages to deal with.

The serge/cgs VSC can be set to loop, but is only AD.
flickr cloud of sound touyube NOT A MODERATOR ANYMORE

User avatar
Synthbuilder
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2986
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:12 am
Location: Cumbria, UK

Post by Synthbuilder » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:16 am

This:

Image

http://www.oakleysound.com/vrg.htm

But you're going to have to wait. I'm laying out the board right now. PCBs should be available by the end of the month if all goes well.

Tony

User avatar
diophantine
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2292
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:50 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

Post by diophantine » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:26 am

Folks, the OP isn't looking for a looping ADSR, at least not from his description.

goom, looking at the UEG manual, it may suit your needs by switching between Gated Finish Loop and Gated Release modes, though if your gate is too long it will loop.
http://www.encoreelectronics.com/UEGManual2.pdf

goom
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 808
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:03 pm

Post by goom » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:54 am

Synthbuilder wrote:This:

Image

http://www.oakleysound.com/vrg.htm

But you're going to have to wait. I'm laying out the board right now. PCBs should be available by the end of the month if all goes well.

Tony
Whoa! Very cool. Thanks Tony. As long as it will peak to the max voltage (5V, hopefully) even after the gate is removed, it looks like a perfect module to mate with my existing setup. I don't understand all the other options, but it looks like a very versatile module. Can you share any more info?

User avatar
e-grad
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3316
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:55 am
Location: Berlin

Post by e-grad » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:56 am

The ASys Trapezoid Generator should fit the bill whereas the On stage would be similiar to a full level sustain stage. However that is still a three stage envelope since there's no decay. Yet there's no complete ADSR equivalent without a gate.

http://www.analoguesystems.co.uk/pdf/RS510E.pdf

goom
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 808
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:03 pm

Post by goom » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:58 am

diophantine wrote:I suppose it would need to be something like Korg's ADHSR, as found on the MS-10 and MS-20, where H is the "hold time": basically time it adds onto the input gate length.

Otherwise, the EG's "S" portion doesn't know how long to run (and would, by default, be zero).

I'm not sure of any modular EG that provides this explicitly.

The Universal Event Generator could give you the equivalent of an ADHSR, but it would be on 100% of the time (unless I'm forgetting a mode on there).
I hadn't thought of the Korg ADHSR, but it looks like it could also work. I actually already own a UEG, but for this freerun function, I feel it's using a stick of TNT when all I want it to light a candle. :)

Speaking of the freerun moniker, that's what Oberheim called this function in the Xpander and M12. I just associated with that when I thought about the function.

goom
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 808
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:03 pm

Post by goom » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:00 am

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll check them all out to see what's best, but so far the new Oakley module seems very cool.

User avatar
Synthbuilder
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2986
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:12 am
Location: Cumbria, UK

Post by Synthbuilder » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:20 am

Actually, if you already have an issue 3 or 4 Oakley ADSR/VCA module then you could remove C13 and put in its place a 1nF cap and a switch in series. Turning off the switch would force the ADSR to complete the attack phase whether the gate is there or not. The decay would kick in as normal after the attack peak has been reached. That is you'll get a one shot AD output.

Tony

User avatar
CLee
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:49 pm
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Post by CLee » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:56 am

If you're into DIY the VCS/DUSG from Ken Stone.

The trigger input does an AR one shot envelope. Connecting OUT to TRIG gives you looping. Gate into IN gives you ASR envelopes.

User avatar
Navs
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4172
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:49 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Post by Navs » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:28 pm

e-grad wrote:That's not possible for an ADSR
Yes, it is ;)

If you've got a gate delay and a comparator, you can achieve both types of 'free-run' that have been discussed (see attached MP3).

With a gate delay like the A-162, set the delay to zero and the length to taste. This provides the gate that the sustain requires. This mimics the response of AD envelopes like the VCS, which complete regardless of gate duration.

If you then mult that gate to a comparator with a suitable threshold, you'll get a second gate when the first expires. Mix the two signals and feed them to the input of the gate delay and you've got a looping ADSR.

The A-162 is great for these sorts of tricks and can also be used with AD envelopes which have an End Out to achieve the Envelator's delayed looping.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

goom
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 808
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:03 pm

Post by goom » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:02 pm

Tony, I have the issue 1 and issue 2 Oakley EGs. I also have MOTM EGs and the Encore UEG. Do you know what price point the VRG will be?

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I will look into everything you've mentioned.

User avatar
dkcg
I pity the fool w/o enough VCAs
Posts: 9142
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:35 pm
Location: LA

Post by dkcg » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:25 pm

If you have a fast sequencer and a slew (or adjustable portamento in the sequencer), you can make an ADSR (or more complex shapes) shaped envelope loop or freakout (in a good way). Depends on the sequencer and the patch (I think a VC addressed envelope would be easier to time out the stages), I bet a Z8000 and a Maths could give you some crazy or musical envelopes tho. Maybe add in a couple comparators to make your steps for the stages. Whatever works. :hmm:

This is how I would set up a looping complex envelope in the buchla, with the 250e. A slewed sequencer probably wouldn't be the snappiest, fastest envelope, but an interesting one with multiple stages.

User avatar
Synthbuilder
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2986
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:12 am
Location: Cumbria, UK

Post by Synthbuilder » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:42 am

goom wrote:Tony, I have the issue 1 and issue 2 Oakley EGs.
Do you have the original issue 1 and 2 ADSR/VCA or the issue 1 and 2 VC-ADSR PCBs?

If it's the ADSR/VCA (Omeg green pots) then it's C39 (issue 1) or C9 (issue 2) you need to take out.

If it's the post 2005 non looping VC-ADSR boards (Spectrol/Vishay pots) then it's C12 you need to take out.
goom wrote:Do you know what price point the VRG will be?
The PCBs will be about £18 assuming they go right at the first run. For the ready made ones I don't know yet what price Paul will sell them at.

Tony

User avatar
e-grad
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3316
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:55 am
Location: Berlin

Post by e-grad » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:55 am

Navs wrote:
e-grad wrote:That's not possible for an ADSR
Yes, it is ;)

If you've got a gate delay and a comparator, you can achieve both types of 'free-run' that have been discussed (see attached MP3).

With a gate delay like the A-162, set the delay to zero and the length to taste. This provides the gate that the sustain requires. This mimics the response of AD envelopes like the VCS, which complete regardless of gate duration. [...]
There's a reason why you've chopped off a part a the quote.
e-grad wrote:That's not possible for an ADSR which needs a gate for the sustain.
:doh:

However, of course it's helpful to draw the attention to possible sources of gate signals.

goom
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 808
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:03 pm

Post by goom » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:06 am

Synthbuilder wrote:
goom wrote:Tony, I have the issue 1 and issue 2 Oakley EGs.
Do you have the original issue 1 and 2 ADSR/VCA or the issue 1 and 2 VC-ADSR PCBs?

If it's the ADSR/VCA (Omeg green pots) then it's C39 (issue 1) or C9 (issue 2) you need to take out.

If it's the post 2005 non looping VC-ADSR boards (Spectrol/Vishay pots) then it's C12 you need to take out.
goom wrote:Do you know what price point the VRG will be?
The PCBs will be about £18 assuming they go right at the first run. For the ready made ones I don't know yet what price Paul will sell them at.

Tony

Thanks, Tony. I have the original issue. 1 and issue 2 ADSR/VCA modules. Yep, I'm kickin' it old school! :D

User avatar
Navs
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4172
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:49 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Post by Navs » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:39 pm

e-grad wrote:
Navs wrote:
e-grad wrote:That's not possible for an ADSR
Yes, it is ;)

If you've got a gate delay and a comparator, you can achieve both types of 'free-run' that have been discussed (see attached MP3).

With a gate delay like the A-162, set the delay to zero and the length to taste. This provides the gate that the sustain requires. This mimics the response of AD envelopes like the VCS, which complete regardless of gate duration. [...]
There's a reason why you've chopped off a part a the quote.
e-grad wrote:That's not possible for an ADSR which needs a gate for the sustain.
:doh:
Guilty as charged :lol:
e-grad wrote: However, of course it's helpful to draw the attention to possible sources of gate signals.
And that's all I wanted to do :hug: These are modular synths, after all ...

User avatar
e-grad
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3316
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:55 am
Location: Berlin

Post by e-grad » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:04 pm

Navs wrote:Guilty as charged :lol:
No prob, neighbour. :party:

Post Reply

Return to “Modular Synth General Discussion”