TV/Monitor choices

Discussion of modular and standalone video generating/processing techniques and associated hardware.

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fletch
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TV/Monitor choices

Post by fletch » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:55 pm

I was thinking of picking up a new LCD TV for working on video synth stuff, but I work in a tv broadcast facility and there are lots of broadcast CRT monitors sitting around that are up for grabs. I like how much space you save with new tvs but since the video signal is composite it might make more sense to go with a CRT. I noticed Lars using some CRT monitors in the NAMM video, they do look good but can be so big/heavy for how much screen you get. What do you guys use?

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Post by lizlarsen » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:08 pm

I prefer the big broadcast CRTs just out of principle, since they are analog -- with cheaper LCDs you get some bandwidth problems and digital encoding problems (although broadcast LCDs probably wouldn't have this issue.) I have a couple small (7" and 3") LCDs I use for preview monitors... useful for gigs where the main output is going to a projector.

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Post by johnnywoods » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:38 pm

I have an LCD, and have never had any problems. The glow from a CRT is nice, but I work primarily with hardware upscaling to HD from my LZX, and until I can get my hands on an HD CRT, the LCD is better for my purposes.

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Re: TV/Monitor choices

Post by xart » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:46 pm

fletch wrote:I was thinking of picking up a new LCD TV for working on video synth stuff, but I work in a tv broadcast facility and there are lots of broadcast CRT monitors sitting around that are up for grabs. I like how much space you save with new tvs but since the video signal is composite it might make more sense to go with a CRT. I noticed Lars using some CRT monitors in the NAMM video, they do look good but can be so big/heavy for how much screen you get. What do you guys use?
a big old CRT here. :tu:

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Post by barto » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:02 pm

ive been able to find some old broadcast CRT's either at a local electronics recycler (can be risky, one was clearly used as a weather forecast monitor as i can see screen burn from all the cities in my area) and even found a couple for free on craigslists (just serviced last year!). i like them because most have multiple input chanels as well as input types (bnc, svideo) and loop through. i have 4 19 inchers which are beasts and rarely bring them for live performances but i love having those bad boys stacked at my house (another benefit of broadcast CRT's IMO). i have a couple smaller ones that ive used too which are nice. recently a friend got rid of a 20" LCD which has been kind of perfect for me because its so much smaller and has a handle. i just got a 42" LCD to replace my computer monitor and am definitely planning on bringing that out some time.Image
Last edited by barto on Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MrDys » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:08 pm

I use my iMac monitor. My video goes directly into capture and I view it on the monitor. It works for me. The only thing that would improve it is a better capture device, which I should work on getting...

I also have one of those crappy 12" CRT TVs, for when I feel like escaping from my office, and that works as well.
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Post by nickciontea » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:52 pm

Image

19" crt here

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barto
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Post by barto » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:53 pm

wcfields wrote:To save space, you can get a used Security Camera Multiplexer and have one monitor that will display any combo of inputs.
lower right TV in my previous post :rock: found it for 3$ and its great! you can freeze frame, view each source at full screen, and do color/contrast adjustments to each. i also found a way to remove the camera labels and borders. be careful when shopping for one as a lot of them are b/w only.

i really want to build a portable case to store my video mixer, multiplexer and a monitor for live stuff

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Post by fletch » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:26 pm

cool! I think I'm gonna haul out a behemoth Sony Trinitron I found in the basement at work. It'll be a bit of a workout, but worth it I think.

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Post by daverj » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:02 pm

Image

Sony Trinitrons are great.

These are 8 of the flat face Trinitron CRTs. I also have a pair of pro Sonys, a couple of small CRTs and LCDs for portable and preview monitors, and a large Sharp HD LCD.

The problem with some HD LCDs (and projectors) is that the scaling circuits in them can get fooled by oscillators that flicker at certain frequencies, such as frame rate or 1/2 frame rate. This can cause the flicker to stop flickering, or some almost frame buffer delay style effects because of the motion correction in the circuits. Not that those look bad, but that they don't accurately show what you'll see on a different monitor.

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Post by kjellb » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:11 pm

Question for you Dave. I have had LCD panels and projectors freak out from flicker video. So I always try to get CRT monitors for my performances. In theory will certain resolutions work better with composite video than others? And what about the contrast ratio of projectors?

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Post by daverj » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:26 pm

The contrast ratio of projectors shouldn't have any effect on the flicker issue. And each new generation of LCD and projector has better and better contrast ratios.

I think the main issue with the flicker problem in LCDs and projectors is in the chip set used to do the scaling from standard def to HD. The same chip sets are often used in different resolution screens/projectors, just using different internal settings. So just going on resolution I don't think would be enough to find ones that have less of a problem.

The problem probably comes from the chips trying to remove motion artifacts in their conversion. Since different chip sets do this in different ways, some chip sets probably have more problems than others. Many LCD makers don't make the chips, and just buy them separately, so even within one brand of LCD you might find different brands of scaling chips in different models of monitor/projector.

So I don't think there's a simple solution to solving the problem. It wouldn't be easy, but I would suggest trying out as many scan converters as you can to do the conversion to HD separately from the monitor or projector. If you can find a scan converter (upscaler) that doesn't eliminate the flicker, then you should be able to use that with most LCDs and projectors without the LCD or projector using their internal upscaler and causing the problem. Though there might still be some projectors that re-scale even HD signals into their own native display resolution.

What you want is something that does the line doubling or upscaling, but doesn't have the motion correction function.

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Post by BananaPlug » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:43 pm

wcfields wrote:Ideally you'd want to get a Sony Trinitron CRT... The "HR" models (High resolution) can do 600 lines.
Actually 800 lines is the spec on the later ones. I've got a PVM14-M4u. They have so many different inputs! accepts NTSC, NTSC (4.43), PAL, SECAM in Composite, Y/C and RGB, and Y/R-Y/B-Y formats. Many years of incremental improvements in that line of gear.

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Post by fletch » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:02 am

picked it up from work...looks great. Image

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Post by Juxwl » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:23 am

creatorlars wrote:I prefer the big broadcast CRTs just out of principle, since they are analog -- with cheaper LCDs you get some bandwidth problems and digital encoding problems (although broadcast LCDs probably wouldn't have this issue.) I have a couple small (7" and 3") LCDs I use for preview monitors... useful for gigs where the main output is going to a projector.
I watched your NAMM video on Sonicstate. What small LCDs are you using?

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Post by lizlarsen » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:27 am

The one I had sitting on top of the case at NAMM was a 7" portable monitor designed I believe for installation in cars or vans. It has built-in speakers and also an internal battery, which is nice. I'm not sure on the brand, but I can check. Tons of options at dealextreme.com just search "LCD monitor".

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Post by Juxwl » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:55 am

Thanks Lars. I think I'm gonna order this one:
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/portable-7 ... tsc-108744

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Post by snufkin » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:52 pm

I have some big hantarex and some lil sony

it pays to work as an AV tech in a place that is continually upgrading :)
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Post by Juxwl » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:31 pm

Juxwl wrote:Thanks Lars. I think I'm gonna order this one:
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/portable-7 ... tsc-108744
Just wanted to update fellow wigglers and recommend against this monitor. Still have not received it (may be discontinued) and deal extreme are completely unresponsive about the status. Looking into a different one.....

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Post by lizlarsen » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:32 pm

That's too bad. I remember it taking me 3 weeks or so to get a monitor I ordered from them, but I did receive it eventually.

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Post by Orbless » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:00 am

daverj wrote:Image
Are those 7200's or 7400's?

My vote goes for Sony PVM's as an ideal monitor

Image

We call the small one on the left 'the frog' the next two are normally used as test monitors and the rest primarily exhibition only.

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Post by barto » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:11 am

theres some good panasonic and jvc monitors that are stackable that work well too

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Post by wcfields » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:32 pm

I had a big long post that got deleted when I was cash-grabbing for posts, but I'll try to reiterate what I said.

For production:
8" - 13" Sony Broadcast Monitors (eBay search for "SONY PVM-"), these can be obtained for a reasonable price surplus and they support RGBs, Component, S-Video, and Composite on both NTSC, PAL, and SECAM. Some even support SDI! Even cheaper are older Sony Trinitrons that can be easily found at Goodwills/Salvation Armys.
Image

For presentation:
I'm a huge fan of block style monitors that were extensively used in art galleries before flat screens. These screen still cost a grip unless you find some warehouse/gallery that just wants them gone.

http://the-block.org/ is a rental company that has them in the UK and has a super minimal monitor-porneqe web site.

Image
Sony 29" Cube

Image
Hantarex EQ/3 28"
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Post by wcfields » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:39 pm

Juxwl wrote:
Juxwl wrote:Thanks Lars. I think I'm gonna order this one:
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/portable-7 ... tsc-108744
Just wanted to update fellow wigglers and recommend against this monitor. Still have not received it (may be discontinued) and deal extreme are completely unresponsive about the status. Looking into a different one.....
Did you ever end of receiving it? I've heard that a few times about DE that the waiting period is a-la the old days of catalog ordering (4-6 weeks).
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Post by Juxwl » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:27 pm

wcfields wrote:
Juxwl wrote:
Juxwl wrote:Thanks Lars. I think I'm gonna order this one:
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/portable-7 ... tsc-108744
Just wanted to update fellow wigglers and recommend against this monitor. Still have not received it (may be discontinued) and deal extreme are completely unresponsive about the status. Looking into a different one.....
Did you ever end of receiving it? I've heard that a few times about DE that the waiting period is a-la the old days of catalog ordering (4-6 weeks).
No, and since they weren't responding to my update requests, paypal refunded my money back.

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