222e vs 223e

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system700

222e vs 223e

Post by system700 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:34 pm

Hi,

i love to spend my Buchla 200e a 222e or a 223e. I never ever use the arpeggiator of my old Synthies. Spatial control what u do with it?

What can you recommend ? :help: :help:

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Votek_Mendo
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Post by Votek_Mendo » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:46 pm

I have a 222e for sale if you are interrested in saving money ;)
Brand new :woah:

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cbm
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Post by cbm » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:58 pm

Lyonel make a pretty good case for the rings in his Encounters series:
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Kent
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Post by Kent » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:49 am

The 223e Arpeggiator is pretty cool but still a bit basic. I do like the fact that it has 'fade in' and 'fade out' times. This slowly ramping CV output can be used for quite a few things as it is basically a user actuated A/D generator.

The Arp can also sit in as a mini-sequencer of a sort. The fact that it is patchable (to say that the arp functions are brought to the panel surface) means that you can use the pulses out, 'tuned' CV out, and clock CV input as you wish.

My primary reason for picking the 223e over the 222e is that my hands, if on the touchplate, would already be engaged in control functions. Why would I want to lift my 5 fingers away from the controller surface, a controller surface that already provides many more axis of control than X/Y/Z, in order to play Merlin The Magic Ring Wizard of Sound?

system700

Post by system700 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:18 am

Kent wrote:The 223e Arpeggiator is pretty cool but still a bit basic. I do like the fact that it has 'fade in' and 'fade out' times. This slowly ramping CV output can be used for quite a few things as it is basically a user actuated A/D generator.

The Arp can also sit in as a mini-sequencer of a sort. The fact that it is patchable (to say that the arp functions are brought to the panel surface) means that you can use the pulses out, 'tuned' CV out, and clock CV input as you wish.

My primary reason for picking the 223e over the 222e is that my hands, if on the touchplate, would already be engaged in control functions. Why would I want to lift my 5 fingers away from the controller surface, a controller surface that already provides many more axis of control than X/Y/Z, in order to play Merlin The Magic Ring Wizard of Sound?
I never saw the 223 in action. I saw how A.C. play with his 222e and i like it. Get more Arms and Fingers and you will have the potential to turn more knobs and push more buttons. :hihi:

But if i understood it right the 222e and the 223e are the same from the Controller wise? What really makes the diffrens is that u have some CV from the 222e u can use or a simple arp from the 223 ?

Thanks. In my next life i will invest more time in learning english. :waah:

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Kent
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Post by Kent » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:44 am

Kein problem mit deine anglisch... and I won't even spell-check that!

You are basically correct. The touchplate/controller part of the system is nearly identical. The upper-left and upper-right hex keys (just 2 keys) do different things on the 222e and 223e. The rest is the same.

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Lyonel
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Post by Lyonel » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:48 am

Sensations are quite different, when you move fingers on 4 centimeters R & S hexagons, with four CVs and two triggers (too bad, no pressure on R&S).
And when you're one meter away from the Buchla, with rings and six CVs and two triggers, under (more or less) control.

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Post by tmeade » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:24 pm

Yes, I usually use the rings separately from the touchplate. Long gestures produce unique modulations. And actually, I love swiping through space until the ring goes out of range and the 222e hangs on the XY value until you bring it back in.

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Post by Lyonel » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:38 pm

tmeade wrote:I love swiping through space until the ring goes out of range and the 222e hangs on the XY value until you bring it back in.
:tu: Oh Yes ! :tu:

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Post by Minimoog56 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:16 pm

I have learned to stay in love with my original Buchla gear and not chase the latest modules as they are introduced. The introduction of the 223e and the rush to get rid of 222e modules by users for the next great thing signaled the end of the liberal trade-in era at B&A. Both have their strengths. I have wands instead of the rings for my 222e requiring even greate rdistance than 1 meter to use correctly. My kids and friends love to manipulate my patches while i am sitting close in "playing" the 200e by twiddling knobs and caressing the touch controller. It is magical and is also the same technology used by the Gemini program to dock Command modules to ajax service vehicles. Can't touch that with an arpegiator. For those duties, the Virus Indigo serves well enough.
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Post by Kent » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:29 pm

Some good points in favor of the 222e were brought up. Nice food for though, gents. :tu:

I'd still feel like an ass waving those things around though.

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Post by daindain » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:36 pm

yea, i think i might be the only user who started out life with the 223e and traded in for a 222!

i liked the arp ok but tended to use other arp sources (polyphonic arps, especially the tenorion app for ipad) i like arps with way more visual feedback and the 223 offers very little. (computers excel at stuff like this)

that said i feel the rings are a huge part of the 200e experience. i don't use them all the time and when i do it's totally separate from the keypad, but when you need that kind of interface it's amazing. 8 separate cvs from two hands is more information than your brain can easily process, it just turns into some weird manmachine experience.

here's a very noisy video of something i've been working on

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Post by divisionbyzero » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:24 pm

tmeade wrote:Yes, I usually use the rings separately from the touchplate. Long gestures produce unique modulations. And actually, I love swiping through space until the ring goes out of range and the 222e hangs on the XY value until you bring it back in.
another way to do that is with the buttons on the top of the keyboard. if the light is on the ring is on and if the light is off the ring's xyz data is sampled and held until you press the button again.

this is also why you can switch the top two buttons (so you can move your right hand to the perfect spot and press the left lightning button with your left hand to hold it).

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Post by tmeade » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:44 pm

Ah, cool, thanks John! I've never tried that before.

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Post by xpander » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:27 am

the rings are awesome. i can't imagine why anyone would prefer the 223 over the 222 unless they were born without arms.

:rock:

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Post by Badr0b0t » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:20 am

xpander wrote:the rings are awesome. i can't imagine why anyone would prefer the 223 over the 222 unless they were born without arms.

:rock:
hahaha

Yeah, I LOVE the rings. AND.. every time I've brought the Buchla on the road or had people by they can really get into it with the rings. It's one of my favorite things to do is set up the rings and play around. It's just so fun. That and I need to try the lock concept inherent in the lightning john is talking about.

What are you on about wands with the 222e? Like the thunder and lightning style? I think I remember Jon with those a couple of years ago an AH meetup?



So can you use them with the 222e?

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Post by Minimoog56 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:47 am

Infrared is infrared.. I am such a klutz and the rings looked like I would either lose em or break em. The wands are a bit more substantial altho harder to play and manipulate the 200e concurrently. Waiting for Don to send me a backup set of rings. Jon hooked me up with the wands when I took delivery of my 222e at xarts Buchla meetup...
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Post by franzschuier » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:01 am

Is the sensing on the 222 the same as on the Lightning?

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Post by divisionbyzero » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:12 am

Conceptually yes, the both work on the same principal. There are differences in the implementations though. the 222e optics are optimized for a very small playing space as opposed to the lightning which is meant for a much larger area. the rings don't put out as strong of a signal as the wands do but that also means they don't need big batteries like the wands.

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Post by sersch » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:46 pm

Very interesting information in this thread for a Buchla newbie here…who now has a hard time deciding between a 222e and a 223e.

So far I was believing that the 222e only measures the X/Y position of the rings. Do I get it right that it also measures the distance of the rings to the sensor?

While being at it, could somebody be so kind and let me know the rough dimensions to which the 222e sensor "sees" the rings? Like minimum and maximum distance and: At the maximum distance from the sensor, how wide and how high is the area the sensor sees?

Furthermore: Am I correct in assuming that the 222e "brain" needs to be in the upper boat of a 201e-12 or 201e-18, because there it "sees" the rings while you sit in front of the instrument. So if it would be built into the upper boat of the new 201e-10 cabinet, am I correct in assuming that I would have to stand up in front of the instrument (instead of sitting in front of it) or wave my hands sort of above the instrument in order to be "seen"?

Finally some questions regarding the rings themselves:
- How long do the rings take to be charged?
- How long do they run when fully charged?
- Are there on/off switches on each of them, or are they always on when removed from the USB ports?
- I guess the ring sizes are easily adjustable, no?

A lot of questions, I know. Thanks in advance for any answer!

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Post by divisionbyzero » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:58 pm

sersch wrote:Very interesting information in this thread for a Buchla newbie here…who now has a hard time deciding between a 222e and a 223e.

So far I was believing that the 222e only measures the X/Y position of the rings. Do I get it right that it also measures the distance of the rings to the sensor?
yes, x,y, and z are sensed.
sersch wrote:While being at it, could somebody be so kind and let me know the rough dimensions to which the 222e sensor "sees" the rings? Like minimum and maximum distance and: At the maximum distance from the sensor, how wide and how high is the area the sensor sees?
if i remember correctly the z tails off after 4-5 feet. the x-y axis depends on the patch cables running out of the xyz outputs. generally you'll be fine if you're right in front of your system (or maybe a foot or two back).
sersch wrote:Furthermore: Am I correct in assuming that the 222e "brain" needs to be in the upper boat of a 201e-12 or 201e-18, because there it "sees" the rings while you sit in front of the instrument. So if it would be built into the upper boat of the new 201e-10 cabinet, am I correct in assuming that I would have to stand up in front of the instrument (instead of sitting in front of it) or wave my hands sort of above the instrument in order to be "seen"?
yes. the rings/wands don't use accelerometers or gyroscopes or anything so they don't have a definite concept of x/y/z. it's all relative to the optics section. you can put the optics in the middle or bottom boat but then your directional planes are also shifted. also, keep in mind that there has to be a direct line of sight between the rings and the sensor; there's a led that shows you if each ring is in range or not

sersch wrote:Finally some questions regarding the rings themselves:
- How long do the rings take to be charged?
- How long do they run when fully charged?
- Are there on/off switches on each of them, or are they always on when removed from the USB ports?
- I guess the ring sizes are easily adjustable, no?
i think it takes around an hour to fully charge. it depends on what you have them connected to. i've never continuously run a ring from full to empty so i don't know but i know it's at least 2 hours. there are tiny on/off switches that turn the rings on and off. they are adjustable; the "ring" potion is just a piece of velcro that wraps around your finger to mount the transmitter.

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Post by daindain » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:49 pm

i have found this is my optimum ring stance...

Image

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Post by daindain » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:51 pm

Jon here's a question for you...do you leave the rings plugged in when not in use? is it bad to have them charging all the time? also, when am i going to have to change the internal rechargable battery? i'm assuming they will wear out over time.

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Post by divisionbyzero » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:43 pm

daindain wrote:Jon here's a question for you...do you leave the rings plugged in when not in use? is it bad to have them charging all the time? also, when am i going to have to change the internal rechargable battery? i'm assuming they will wear out over time.
no idea here, probably should ask don. i don't plug mine in until they die.

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Post by sersch » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:27 pm

@divisionbyzero: Thank you very much for the explanation!
divisionbyzero wrote:the x-y axis depends on the patch cables running out of the xyz outputs.
I am not sure if I understand this sentence correctly. Do you mean that the patch cables running out of the xyz outputs block or limit the width of the x axis?

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