MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index
 FAQ & Terms of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   Wiggler RadioMW Radio   Muff Wiggler TwitterTwitter   Support the site @ PatreonPatreon 
 SearchSearch   RegisterSign up   Log inLog in 
WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

The problem(s) with the 210e are....
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge  
Author The problem(s) with the 210e are....
drewskee
What exactly?

Coming from an EMS Synthi concept it seems to provide (5) separate mixes of audio and CV from (8) different sources.

I know it is not "dynamic" but it seems to be a lot more than the pin matrix on an EMS and can act as CV mixers and/or attenuators as well.

I heard about noise in the audio path and jitter in the CV path but how bad are those conditions?

Even in a small system with recall it would appear to be a highly useful module. Very curious
dkcg
No audio noise I hear, it has a little bit of gain too, maybe 4db or so?
CV, might not be perfect for sending out CVs for your melody, but fine with summing modulations for me. It's a set it and forget it module, you can sometimes hear stepping in audio and CV if you tweak levels on it in the patch depending on what you're patched into.

Probably a wicked must have companion for a 206e.
tmeade
Don pretty much addressed the problem with the noise in the signal path with the hardware update he offered a few years ago (and is stock on all new modules).

Routing CVs.... yeah, you don't get the same voltage on the output that you sent in. This can be a bit of a gotcha when you are trying to use it as a patch preset router where you feed your 222e and 250e thru it and out to your oscillators, aiming to switch b/w the two during performance. Even if you compensate at the output of the control module or input of the oscillator control, you might be left with the jitter right around a specific note.

But in practice, tho, its not that big of a deal. pulling the banana out of the sequencer and into the 222e is as easy as it is fun.

My biggest grip is having to scroll around the matrix with the buttons. Would be nice to have touch activated points, but man, that'd cost a pretty penny.

I really like this module!
drewskee
So far it sounds like....

1) If you adjust something while stuff is going through it you might get some jitter/chirps while you adjust values (not a big deal for me)

2) If you want to use it for tonal direction of CV's from sources to destinations you "might not" get all the notes sounding 100% right.

3) So using it as a multiple CV modulation mixer (set and forget) should work generally fine and the noise levels are no longer a big issue.

Anyone else wish to chime in it would be appreciated! Thanks...
dolma84
As you come from EMS

Have a look


That looks interesting!

Dolma
cbm
My issues with it were less about performance (although those were quite noticeable on my older version,) and more to do with how annoying I found it to change things. For example, I was using a couple of the audio outputs as effects sends, and there were just too many button presses involved when adjusting things. It just took me "out of the moment" too much.
dougcl
drewskee wrote:
So far it sounds like....

1) If you adjust something while stuff is going through it you might get some jitter/chirps while you adjust values (not a big deal for me)


Not really, I don't think. It is quantized though. This module would benefit from the fine tuning feature found on the 222e and 251e. You notice this on audio if you are using the 210e in a feedback loop because it will change the pitch. Listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIu_Ba1u_08

You notice it on CV obviously if you are using it to control pitch.

Quote:

2) If you want to use it for tonal direction of CV's from sources to destinations you "might not" get all the notes sounding 100% right.


It sounds like a goat. Listen here at 7secs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEL6Hacak1s. It's a cool sound unless you don't want it.

Quote:

3) So using it as a multiple CV modulation mixer (set and forget) should work generally fine and the noise levels are no longer a big issue.

Anyone else wish to chime in it would be appreciated! Thanks...


It's really great in my opinion for routing CV to the 292e. You can add attenuated SOU signals to your envelopes, mix envelopes, dc offsets and so on, and it's all saved in the patch. Leads to really flexible results for multi-patch sets. In this case the CV jitter is completely not an issue.

It's also great for audio feedback. The attenuation is useful to keep things under control, and also set timbre.

I think it's a core module and should be in every 200e, big or small.
drewskee
Does it allow you to use it in a feedback loop of a 292e to get something like resonance with the LPG?

Really appciate the replies and info as I try to decide on a small 8 module "starter system"....at just under $10,000...

Yikes! Dead Banana
prscrptn
210e + 297 = feedback fun! w00t
Reed
Looping lpg's and such for resonance gets ugly pretty quickly, because the gain spirals out of control and then you have a big, distorted mess on your hands. I guess that's where things like diode ladders come in handy.
dougcl
drewskee wrote:
Does it allow you to use it in a feedback loop of a 292e to get something like resonance with the LPG?


That first link I posted is the 292e by itself fed back through the 210e. It's hard to get resonance though. It's a fine line. You can use the 292e in LPF mode with the 291e, and filter sweep both with the same CV. It puts a peak on the LPF cutoff. Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce1aShTmR9o
Pretty simple patch.
Kent
I happen to agree with everyone else regarding their findings and experiences with this module.

I'd like to add that at first I found the module to be very frustrating to use and I thought that the jitter on the CV section would be a deal-breaker for me. I put my configuration together with the understanding that I could use the 210e to do exactly that which was mentioned earlier: switch from 223e controller to 250e in a performance.

At this point in time, I use the 210e in 90% of my patches and have temporarily given up on the idea of using it to achieve a Master Preset that can be routed as I wish. I'm fine with that now.

I do find the upper section of the 210e to be indispensable as an attenuator for the 297 and 291e. It feels as if there is a big gain boost (or low headroom) on the 297's input. Thus, the Envelope Detector will pretty much stay lit up and hover around a high voltage without ever settling back down to zero Volts and this is even on the 'fast' decay setting. I'm excluding super-slow sequences as an input source though.
batchas
One issue is when you attenuate your sound or CV for instance to 70% and "mute it". When you "unmute it back" (activate it again) it will be set back to 100%. Very annoying!
You can use it as a "live mixer" only if your level is set to standard value of 100% (red led). Muting and unmuting channels during perf with different levels is not possible.
Does anyone know what I mean?

Also what I do not like: the outputs are not aligned with their led columns. Plugging cables in the outputs will hide the top row, where you see which column is currently selected.
I will try to place it diffently in my cabinet (now in the upper row = not intuitive enough).
It means, IMO it is not very useful in live situations.
The right ergonomy is a real challenge. If you look at the 4ms VCAmatrix, you see they splitted "level" and "mute". Pin matrix do not have levels...

Kent wrote:
I have temporarily given up on the idea of using it to achieve a Master Preset that can be routed as I wish. I'm fine with that now.

Same here.
sersch
I want to get a 210e instead of a 207e in a 201e-10 system, as I have to use an external mixer anyway. I really do hope that due to the comparatively small size of the system, the 210e will mimize (if not eliminate) the need to re-patch audio signals between presets, and give me multiple audio mixers in one package.

I had hoped that it could do the same for control signal patching, and from my understanding of this thread, it works fine except for precise pitch control voltages. So my thought is: Couldn't I use one row of the 251e for quantizing a CV output of the 210e in order to eliminate the jitter? As the 251e steps can also be controlled via a control voltage, it can be used as a quantizer, no?

And as the 251e has "only" 50 steps, it means it has 0.2 volts per steps when addressing steps via CV from 0 to 10 volts. So if the CV out of a 210e can give a jitter between 2 adjacent notes, the 251e should be able to correct this – although for the price of halfening the pitch space. But 4 octaves in chromatic quantization should still be enough for me.

Can anybody confirm that this works?
Kent
batchas wrote:
One issue is when you attenuate your sound or CV for instance to 70% and "mute it". When you "unmute it back" (activate it again) it will be set back to 100%. Very annoying!


That's due to the fact that it wasn't designed to be an "On/Off" switch. It was designed to be a toggle between "Unity/Off" states.
askthedust
Hey guys
Sorry to resurrect the thread but...those issues haven’t been fixed right? Was thinking of getting a 210e to switch incoming cvs to an oscillator but I do need to keep perfect cv accuracy for pitch precision. If it fails at doing this I think I’ll pass...
mathomas
askthedust wrote:
Hey guys
Sorry to resurrect the thread but...those issues haven’t been fixed right? Was thinking of getting a 210e to switch incoming cvs to an oscillator but I do need to keep perfect cv accuracy for pitch precision. If it fails at doing this I think I’ll pass...


Check with Studio H / Dougcl to get some cool news. OK, I'll just say it -- he's working on a replacement 210e with an analog front-end, and preset support.
mutierend
mathomas wrote:


Check with Studio H / Dougcl to get some cool news. OK, I'll just say it -- he's working on a replacement 210e with an analog front-end, and preset support.


The demos on Instagram have been pretty dang cool. I bought a used 210e not too long ago, but I'll have to give Doug's alternative a serious consideration simply for its immediacy. I'm sure it will be of the utmost quality as well. smile
mirf59
mutierend wrote:
mathomas wrote:


Check with Studio H / Dougcl to get some cool news. OK, I'll just say it -- he's working on a replacement 210e with an analog front-end, and preset support.


The demos on Instagram have been pretty dang cool. I bought a used 210e not too long ago, but I'll have to give Doug's alternative a serious consideration simply for its immediacy. I'm sure it will be of the utmost quality as well. smile


Care to share any pics / links?

....
mathomas
mirf59 wrote:
mutierend wrote:
mathomas wrote:


Check with Studio H / Dougcl to get some cool news. OK, I'll just say it -- he's working on a replacement 210e with an analog front-end, and preset support.


The demos on Instagram have been pretty dang cool. I bought a used 210e not too long ago, but I'll have to give Doug's alternative a serious consideration simply for its immediacy. I'm sure it will be of the utmost quality as well. smile


Care to share any pics / links?

....


Here’s one. You can kind of hunt around from there...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BsOit8Ohz60/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igs hid=1t8vs6kugxx5f
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge  
Page 1 of 1
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group