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Best Two Panel Serge
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next [all]
Author Best Two Panel Serge
well2thebone
I think i'm going to take some time and re-evaluate what i want out of this system. Been messing with some configurations, you could make a NASTY audio processing system with 2 panels. Soup kitchen 1 + quadslope + audio interface. Soup kitchen 2 + audio interface + just about anything. Animate + audio interface + wave proccessor. Having 2 pre-amps mixing and mangling sounds would be pretty nasty. Unlimited tone. One thing i'v learned from messing with the gator/creature, is that when I try to make the serge conventional, when I use logic and reasoning to create patches, it usually doesn't sound great. Wondering if maybe I should do the same in designing 2 panel system. Although really you cant go wrong w/ anything.

animal/sequencer panel would basically be a gator/creature on steroids. Just from the looks of it (iv never used an analog sequencer), seq a looks a little boring. SQP looks sick. It looks like it could do a ton of stuff, not just creating short lyrical phrases. Of course when talking to rex, we ended our conversation w/ the recommended system being animal/wad/seq-a.

At this point i have a pretty good idea of what i'd be getting with the basic function blocks. However the sequencers and the effects like wad and frequency shifter are still things that i don't think i will be able to wrap my head around until i actually took the plunge and bought them.
well2thebone
Also, I noticed Rex refers to these as sound systems, not necessarily a synthesizer.
confusional
well2thebone wrote:
Also, I noticed Rex refers to these as sound systems, not necessarily a synthesizer.


Welcome to the Serge Modular Music System. In other words, a cohesive musical instrument, and not just not a collection of modules.
well2thebone
Any thoughts on these more out there m-module "sound systems":


Gator/Creature/Mayhem/WAD

Klangzeit/AudioInterface/AudioMatrixMixer/StereoMixer

DualNTO/SQP/Mayhem/Klangshifter

CVMatrixMixer/QuadSlope/WaveProcessor/TripleOSC

Klangzeit/QuadSlope/Multifilter/WaveProcessor

EQShift/Klangzeit/Quadslope/DualOSC
richard
Quote:
when I try to make the serge conventional, when I use logic and reasoning to create patches, it usually doesn't sound great


seriously, i just don't get it

then you are doing it wrong, what I love about the serge is that it is an utterly sublime sounding synthesizer as well as the greatest crazy noisebox I've ever heard. That more conventional aspect is the whole point of the animal really... it is a synthesizer

all your proposed systems are feasible, it just really depends what is important to you and maybe you don't know that yet - its taken me a couple of years with Serge to figure out what I need from it. IMO you need to jump in with a panel or two and see where it takes you. If you want to be able to do everything you are thinking about with it you might as well just accept you are going to end up with 4 or 5 panels
sascha.victoria
Yeah, I don't know what that dude is talking about. I'm multi-tracking a Serge track right now that is very Georgio Moroder meets Air. All the extremely subtle modulations sound amazing. It sounds like a solid bass player trying to play 16th notes for 8 minutes with just the right amount of inconsistencies to feel real.

My recommendation for any Serge system is panel 1 should always be the Animal. Anything after that is gravy but 2 Animals would be ideal.

I actually wouldn't go for the Animate. The WAD is very cool but to me it doesn't get used enough to justify its presense in a 2 panel system. I'm a bigger fan of tape delay, the Moog delay pedal, or spring reverb. I realize these are apples vs oranges but this is my opinion, not yours. The Variable Bandwidth Filter is cool but I'd rather have 2 Variable Q VCFs. Other then that it's a sweet panel.

The main thing I'll point out where I think most people go wrong when initially planning a Serge system is that they want 1 of everything. In reality this will leave you with an unbalanced diet. You need to complete a healthy food pyramid of sound sources, modifies, and control generators. Doubles of things like DTGs, DUSGs, VQVCFs, etc... are really handy, especially since they usually perform multiple functions. Lastly, some people think they'll build a system with DTGs or DUSGs and no NTO or PVCO. While doable I think this is a big mistake. The NTO/PVCO are amazing oscillators and you'll want your DTGs/DUSGs free to do other things. In a pinch they're great oscillators but they can do so much more.
Scories
sascha.victoria wrote:
Yeah, I don't know what that dude is talking about. I'm multi-tracking a Serge track right now that is very Georgio Moroder meets Air. All the extremely subtle modulations sound amazing. It sounds like a solid bass player trying to play 16th notes for 8 minutes with just the right amount of inconsistencies to feel real.

My recommendation for any Serge system is panel 1 should always be the Animal. Anything after that is gravy but 2 Animals would be ideal.

I actually wouldn't go for the Animate. The WAD is very cool but to me it doesn't get used enough to justify its presense in a 2 panel system. I'm a bigger fan of tape delay, the Moog delay pedal, or spring reverb. I realize these are apples vs oranges but this is my opinion, not yours. The Variable Bandwidth Filter is cool but I'd rather have 2 Variable Q VCFs. Other then that it's a sweet panel.

The main thing I'll point out where I think most people go wrong when initially planning a Serge system is that they want 1 of everything. In reality this will leave you with an unbalanced diet. You need to complete a healthy food pyramid of sound sources, modifies, and control generators. Doubles of things like DTGs, DUSGs, VQVCFs, etc... are really handy, especially since they usually perform multiple functions. Lastly, some people think they'll build a system with DTGs or DUSGs and no NTO or PVCO. While doable I think this is a big mistake. The NTO/PVCO are amazing oscillators and you'll want your DTGs/DUSGs free to do other things. In a pinch they're great oscillators but they can do so much more.



That's one of the most useful comment I have read about Serge.

One question. Do you need something like the Sequencer pannel to make the Animal sounds like a real musician as you mentionned in the 1st paragraph?

So having a Creature + Animoo setup (twice the same filter) is not a bad option after all...
Soviet Space Child
well2thebone wrote:
Any thoughts on these more out there m-module "sound systems":


Yeah, not as much bang for the buck as 2 shop panels.
Soviet Space Child
Scories wrote:

So having a Creature + Animoo setup (twice the same filter) is not a bad option after all...


No, especially since it would afford you the possibility to run two of those filters, and their delicious sounding "Gain", in series.
sascha.victoria
Scories wrote:

One question. Do you need something like the Sequencer pannel to make the Animal sounds like a real musician as you mentionned in the 1st paragraph?


Sequencer panel or the TKB are good fun. I generally use a Modcan MIDI/CV to run my Serge. Even when I'm using my TKB I'll get the clock from the MIDI/CV. Lately, I've been triggering notes via MIDI and using the TKB to interject modulations, seemingly random accents, etc... This is key to making something sound like it was played "live" because when you play live nothing hits the exact same every time unless you're a robot.

Scories wrote:

So having a Creature + Animoo setup (twice the same filter) is not a bad option after all...


2 Variable Q VCFs is the only way to get a 24db filter. Sometimes I run one into the other, sometimes I'll run one into a VCA, do some AM, etc... and then into the second, or I'll do the patch on this page:

http://serge-fans.com/wiz_filt.htm
confusional
sascha.victoria wrote:
Yeah, I don't know what that dude is talking about. I'm multi-tracking a Serge track right now that is very Georgio Moroder meets Air. All the extremely subtle modulations sound amazing. It sounds like a solid bass player trying to play 16th notes for 8 minutes with just the right amount of inconsistencies to feel real.

My recommendation for any Serge system is panel 1 should always be the Animal. Anything after that is gravy but 2 Animals would be ideal.

I actually wouldn't go for the Animate. The WAD is very cool but to me it doesn't get used enough to justify its presense in a 2 panel system. I'm a bigger fan of tape delay, the Moog delay pedal, or spring reverb. I realize these are apples vs oranges but this is my opinion, not yours. The Variable Bandwidth Filter is cool but I'd rather have 2 Variable Q VCFs. Other then that it's a sweet panel.

The main thing I'll point out where I think most people go wrong when initially planning a Serge system is that they want 1 of everything. In reality this will leave you with an unbalanced diet. You need to complete a healthy food pyramid of sound sources, modifies, and control generators. Doubles of things like DTGs, DUSGs, VQVCFs, etc... are really handy, especially since they usually perform multiple functions. Lastly, some people think they'll build a system with DTGs or DUSGs and no NTO or PVCO. While doable I think this is a big mistake. The NTO/PVCO are amazing oscillators and you'll want your DTGs/DUSGs free to do other things. In a pinch they're great oscillators but they can do so much more.


Tellin' it like it is. nanners Rockin' Banana!

Dear original poster. Please read and re-read the above post. If it doesn't sink in, read it again. And then again. Still don't get it? Then read it again.

Scories wrote:

One question. Do you need something like the Sequencer pannel to make the Animal sounds like a real musician as you mentionned in the 1st paragraph?

So having a Creature + Animoo setup (twice the same filter) is not a bad option after all...


That was kinda two questions. hihi

In order to make the Animal sound like a real musician you can use the TKB or a Sequencer panel. Or do what many people do and use a MIDI-to-CV converter and let your computer do the talking. No shame in that.

A Creature + Animoo set up is a wonderful option.

I dream of an Animal + two Creatures, and I won't give up that dream. There's not a single bit within a Creature that is not enhanced by more of the same. And remember, flip the switch on a Variable Q VCF and it turns into a CV processor.
noobyscooby
I would keep your Gator/Creature combo and build out from there. There's no point in selling them at a big loss (if you bought them new) just to buy shop panels.

I'd go Triple Osc/Wave Proc and that'd be a pretty sexy Sergian two boat system IMHO. Or keep the Gator/Creature and buy an Animal/Animoo. Animal/Animoo should be the first step for anyone into Sergeland unless you're willing to shell out for a Blue/Red fun station or Animal/Animoo-Animate combo depending on your tastes.

For sequencing and especially tonal stuff, just sequence externally. From computer as many do it now with Expert Sleepers stuff or from a Kenton or from an external non-Serge sequencer. Or TKB eventually.

I'm in a bit of thought too about what panel will finish off my system. I currently have.

TKB
Custom Blue Voice (Variable Slope instead of second PVCO)
Mayhem/Quadslope
Triple Oscillator/????

I initially thought Gator but I am getting a Yusynth clock divider adapted for Modcan A format for cheap, I have some Cynthia comparators and burst generators for polyrhythms and I never really used my logic modules when I owned a couple in my euro days.

I think I've narrowed it down to Creature or Stereo Mixer.

With the Creature, as people have said, it would be about having two of some really great modules. Two SSGs, Two Q filters, two DTGs (to go along with two DUSGs,) and another amplified output/crossfader channel.

With the Stereo Mixer I'll also have two DTGs, a Quadrature Osc which I don't have yet (but may not need as I have a A format Zeroscillator) and the sexiest looking thing to me is that Dual Channel Stereo Mixer which is like an enhanced UAP. Some great outboard to be sure. And more attenuators/VCAs. Can never have enough.

The Creature seems sexier but maybe the Stereo Mixer makes the whole system better, the more practical choice.

Maybe it will be the Creature after all. It would be cheaper and is more common on the used market. No, Stereo Mixer. But there I am in my thoughts.

I'm not interested in the Sequencer panels as I have a TKB and have a Tetra Maps/MC-202/Xoxbox for more conventional things.

I've owned the ASR/Quan. The TGC is great but the Quantizer is not what I look for in a Quantizer. I also previously owned a Audio Interface but find my Modcan A Processor 08a enough as a preamp and thought the Res EQ was merely ok. Of course, like everyone else, would probably love it more with more CV control.

And don't say WAD. I don't care how it's built, I don't care how many inputs it has, I don't care if magic elves live in it, I'm not paying 2k for a BBD device. I thought that the 600 dollars I paid for a Blacet Time Machine adapted to Modcan A format was more than enough money for a modular delay and I am happy enough with it. From most videos I see I can get similar results with the Time Machine. I also have Modcan's analog frequency shifter so am good enough on that front for the amount of times I use that effect.
Scories
sascha.victoria wrote:
Lately, I've been triggering notes via MIDI and using the TKB to interject modulations, seemingly random accents, etc... This is key to making something sound like it was played "live" because when you play live nothing hits the exact same every time unless you're a robot.


That's something I'm really looking for. But having a TKB just to do this is kinda... weird. I thought that the best tool would have been a Gator or a random module.(???)
sascha.victoria
@ Noobyscooby,
Triple Osc is sweet but the lack of a mixer is kind of strange. I'd go for the Dual Osc. The /N Comp is really sweet for adding some insanity to your oscillators and you can't have enough mixers.

Scories wrote:
sascha.victoria wrote:
Lately, I've been triggering notes via MIDI and using the TKB to interject modulations, seemingly random accents, etc... This is key to making something sound like it was played "live" because when you play live nothing hits the exact same every time unless you're a robot.


That's something I'm really looking for. But having a TKB just to do this is kinda... weird. I thought that the best tool would have been a Gator or a random module.(???)


Personally, I don't have the patience to do analog sequencing of notes. I didn't get along with the TKB until I started dedicating it to sequenced tasks that had nothing to do with note value.

For example: You have an arpeggio running via MIDI/CV in a standard osc/filter/env/vca patch. Take the gate that is triggering your envelope to clock your TKB. Set your TKB to reset after 12 steps so your running a 3 over 4 feel. Then you could use row A to vary filter freq, B to trigger another envelope that is modulating something but the B env is only hitting every so often, etc.... Depending how hard you are hitting these accents you could really feel the 3 over 4 or it could subtle in just the right way that grooves until sunset.

If I were to do it over again I would get the Sequencer panel. When I started my Serge I had lusted for the TKB for so long that I was blinded and didn't realize the potential of the Sequencer panel. Even one of the MClass sequencers would suit me fine. At the end of the day, I love MIDI and I'm not ashamed to say it.
Nils
Listen to Mr Sascha, he knows what he's talking about thumbs up

I totally agree with the usefulness of certain doubles, which is one of the reasons I suggested Animal+Animoo. The Animal contains many of the quintessential AND useful Serge modules.

@well2thebone; My main concern with most your listed suggestions is the absence of the VCFQ.
If I was to get a 2-panel system, my first concern would be to get at least 2 x VCFQs . INCREDIBLY useful module.
sascha.victoria
well2thebone wrote:
Any thoughts on these more out there m-module "sound systems"


Nothing about this list is more "out there" or "experimental" then any other Serge set up. In case you haven't been listening to what gets posted on Muff, all the alien music landed a long time ago.

well2thebone wrote:
Gator/Creature/Mayhem/WAD


Cool but you're probably better off with a shop system. Probably your most well rounded suggestion.

well2thebone wrote:
Klangzeit/AudioInterface/AudioMatrixMixer/StereoMixer


Klangzeit and AI are great for audio processing but the AMM and SM are total overkill for a 2 panel system. Even if you're a feedback fiend there are many other options that would be much more interesting.

well2thebone wrote:
DualNTO/SQP/Mayhem/Klangshifter


Better to get an Animal + SQP / Klangshifter.

well2thebone wrote:
CVMatrixMixer/QuadSlope/WaveProcessor/TripleOSC


CVMM is really meant for a much larger system but also not enough mixers or VCAs. Something in this world would be QuadSlope/WaveProc/DualOsc/MultiFilter or Creature/Creature/QuadSlope/WaveProc. This would be an Animal on steroids.

well2thebone wrote:
Klangzeit/QuadSlope/Multifilter/WaveProcessor


Definitely not enough CV or audio sources.

well2thebone wrote:
EQShift/Klangzeit/Quadslope/DualOSC


I feel like this was laid out by someone who wants one of everything and is thinking that the DUSG can do everything. See my previous posts.

Lastly, I just realized based on my previous posts you might think I'm some square dude who only does MIDI/CV diatonic sequenced stuff with his Serge. This is not the case all the time. I get down with my share of esoterica.
b3nsf
sascha.victoria wrote:
The WAD is very cool but to me it doesn't get used enough


I think you need to play around with feedback my good friend!!!! Try parallel processing a sound with the WAD, very BOC sounding... warm goodness!

[s]http://soundcloud.com/b3nsf/serge-feedback-trumpet[/s]
noobyscooby
sascha.victoria wrote:
@ Noobyscooby,
Triple Osc is sweet but the lack of a mixer is kind of strange. I'd go for the Dual Osc. The /N Comp is really sweet for adding some insanity to your oscillators and you can't have enough mixers.


True that. Dual Osc and Wave Proc it should be then. Or an Animal/Animoo.

BUT WHAT ABOUT ME? hihi

Creature or Stereo Mixer to finish off my beast? help
negativspace
booger wrote:
well2thebone wrote:

if I sell some stock I can definitely get a second.


Another retirement sacrificed to shameless addiction...


Given the markets these days the Serge might be a better investment. hihi
ModHiisi
What about WAD/Creature & Wave Processor/Audio Interface

Rounded or "wanting one of everything"?
richard
I have a wave processor for sale if you decide to go that route smile

nuthin' wrong with a bit of vulturing hihi
Scories
edit : irrelevant message
sorry.
confusional
ModHiisi wrote:
What about WAD/Creature & Wave Processor/Audio Interface

Rounded or "wanting one of everything"?


Maybe not the most rounded, but not so bad either.
Nils
confusional wrote:
ModHiisi wrote:
What about WAD/Creature & Wave Processor/Audio Interface

Rounded or "wanting one of everything"?


Maybe not the most rounded, but not so bad either.


I agree, not bad at all, and great fun.
You might be missing proper VCOs, depending on how you like to work.
Still you you do have six TG/USGs, so you're well covered in the generator department.

Personally I would miss a second VCFQ, but I realize I'm in the minority here hihi
ModHiisi
Nils wrote:
confusional wrote:
ModHiisi wrote:
What about WAD/Creature & Wave Processor/Audio Interface

Rounded or "wanting one of everything"?


Maybe not the most rounded, but not so bad either.


I agree, not bad at all, and great fun.
You might be missing proper VCOs, depending on how you like to work.
Still you you do have six TG/USGs, so you're well covered in the generator department.

Personally I would miss a second VCFQ, but I realize I'm in the minority here hihi


Hmm. I'll end up having that configuration once i receive the Wave Processor/Audio Interface boat (that i just got confirmed by Rex left yesterday..) in addition to my existing WAD/Creature boat.

'Proper' oscillators, another filter and wave multipliers in addition to my WAD/Creature were on my 'what do i need next' shopping list. But i ended up getting these. I most probably end up getting more oscillators at some point. But this 4 M-odule config. seems really inspiring and also a nice foundation for a bigger system... To my tastes..
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