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Controlling the Q111 Pan/Fade
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> 5U Format Modules Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author Controlling the Q111 Pan/Fade
Putte
'Switching
By using a square wave as the control signal, a voltage controlled switch can be created', says the dotcom homepage.
What if I use a sine wave? That should produce a fading effect between two signals, right?
diophantine
Yep. Same for a triangle wave (although the pan/fade will be with a different rate & overlap).

Likewise, ramp/saw will pan/fade in one direction, and switch in the other.

Remember that the Q111 outputs one of the signals as inverted. For audio, though, this doesn't make any real difference. Apparently there is a mod to change this behaviour; I can't recall where I've seen it, though.
Putte
Yes, the answer was just some lines above on the homepage. As usual, I´m too fast.
kindredlost
I use the Q111 as a stereo pan module before going out to the outside world. In order to do that I had to invert (or re_invert) one of the "channels". I also added an attenuator to the input cv.
Great module but made for the inner-workings of the modular system mainly.
The Hamburglar
kindredlost wrote:
I use the Q111 as a stereo pan module before going out to the outside world. In order to do that I had to invert (or re_invert) one of the "channels". I also added an attenuator to the input cv.
Great module but made for the inner-workings of the modular system mainly.

Do you mean that the standard stereo pan move is not immediately possible?
Putte
Just got my Q111, along with some other modules, and I realized I´m lacking an amount control for the 'Control' input!
I´m going to use a sine wave to control it, but what if I don´t want it to pan/fade 100% in the two directions. Can I use an attenuator for that?

Well, I know. Why don´t I try it myself, now that I got the long sought after module? Hmmm, just making conversations... and you might have better sollutions.
sandyb
yup. use an attenuator.
Just me
or a slew. Just saying. LOL!
VinceL
diophantine wrote:
Remember that the Q111 outputs one of the signals as inverted. For audio, though, this doesn't make any real difference. Apparently there is a mod to change this behaviour; I can't recall where I've seen it, though.


I have found that there is a noticeable drop in the audio level as the signal is panned from channel-to-channel. The inverted audio signal cancels the non-inverted signal as you pass through the center position. I am not aware of a fix available in the Q111; I just use a Q125 to invert one channel.

I have a pair of Oakley Equinoxe's, a pair of SSL Delays, and a pair of Q111's side-by-side. Directly below these modules are 2 Q125's which give me 4 channels of inversion capability.
Putte
At the moment, I´m just enjoying the pan/fade effect. That´s all I need now.
So far, the most obvious thing coming out of this is an increasing need for a second Q113 8 channel mixer. I thought I could move around that somehow, but first I have to mix the oscillators down for the Q111 input. Then, the two filters a pan between have to be summoned up before the amplifier..... Unless I let the Q108 work as a mixer. I haven´t really succeded in doing that before.
goom
kindredlost wrote:
I use the Q111 as a stereo pan module before going out to the outside world. In order to do that I had to invert (or re_invert) one of the "channels". I also added an attenuator to the input cv.
Great module but made for the inner-workings of the modular system mainly.


Can you share how you modded your Q111, please? I'd like my Q111 to have the same mods as yours.
steffengrondahl
The Q111 is a very versatile module.

In pan mode, it can be used for VC stereo panning, as VC switch, as VCA (use output two), as gate logical AND (use it as a VCA with gates).

In fade mode, it can be used for VC fading (i.e. VC two-channel mixer) and probably some more.

I got 3 of these and have a Q125 next to them, so I can attenuate the control input signal for the Q111 with the upper attenuator on the Q125 and invert the second output/input on the Q111 with the lower part of the Q125.
Putte
Yes, I´d also like to see that. Probably exactly what I missed the moment I ran this module for the first time yesterday.
Putte
Just tested this stupid idea of driving the M569 in 2x16 and having the Q111 alternating between the two melodies.... didn´t work. Somehow the Q111 then controls pitch.
Well, it wasn´t a very useful thing to start with, just trying out possibilities. It would have been nice to have to sequences alternating slowly.
alternating.bit
I was curious about the Q111 to do a standard CV-controlled audio pan from left to right, but based on this thread it seems like it needs a lot of hand holding to make this what seems to be a straightforward operation to actually work.
Yes, I own a Q125, but I don't feel I should have to do all sorts of combos just to do a pan (?)
kindredlost
The ability to turn the Q111 into a stereo panner is a bit of DIY.

Roger Arrick never meant the Pan/Fade Q111 to be a final stereo pan module but with the use of the Q125 Signal Processor (as discussed earlier) it is possible.

My suggestion would be to use the combination of the Q125 and Q111 for this function. I did the modification before I realized this could be done with the Q125 in conjunction. I don't regret it but it was quite a project and does free up my Q125's for other duties.

Here is the thread about the modification if anyone wishes to go down the same narrow path. It starts out about adding the attenuator and ends up with the inverter rider pcb.

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23252&highlight=q111
alternating.bit
Ughhhh... this all comes back to why I wanted the Grove Audio QUAD VCA. d'oh!

FML.

I'm not in the mood to do all these modifications.
analogjeff
I use it more in fade mode ad a vc mixer..
Tronman
analogjeff wrote:
I use it more in fade mode ad a vc mixer..


Same here. I never use it to pan outputs. It seems more useful in the middle of my system than at the end.
alternating.bit
But then can't you do the same with a VCA? (using CV to control volume level, hence a "fade").
Stereotactixxx
alternating.bit wrote:
But then can't you do the same with a VCA? (using CV to control volume level, hence a "fade").


You can do it with two VCAs, but then again that is of course what this module is.
The fade function is like the cross fader on a DJ mixer, but with CV instead of a slider.
Dave Peck
Just wanted to point out that the issue discussed above about the Q111 Pan/Fade inverting one of the outputs when in Pan mode is true, and it can be a significant flaw depending on your patch, like when you are panning the synth's main outs to two channels of a mixing console and trying to feed this stereo signal to a mono effects bus on your console - the two channels cancel out in the effects bus and no signal gets sent to the effects! Not to mention, of course, the stereo panning signal itself will be out of phase and will exhibit all the usual problems associated with that as the signals acoustically cancel when the signal is panned through the center.

BUT the fix is a lot easier than some of the discussion would indicate. My system has four of these modules, and I discovered this design bug almost immediately when I first put the system together several years ago. I spoke with Roger about it (he had not been aware of it until then) and he quickly figured out a simple cut-and-jump fix.

You just need to reverse the traces going to pins 2 and 3 of U3, the CA3080 op amp chip that is located closest to the power connector. This involves cutting two small PCB traces and soldering two small jumper wires to reverse the signal routing. It would be a bit difficult to do this right at the op amp pin locations but you can cut the traces and add the jumpers a bit further away from the IC by following these traces to their destinations.

Another way to accomplish this mod without cutting traces on the board, if your IC is in a socket and not soldered directly to the PCB - remove IC U3 from the socket, carefully bend pins 2 & 3 outward, solder small 1" long solid-core wires to each of these IC pins, and strip and tin the other ends of these wires. Now re-insert the IC in the socket but plug the ends of these two wires into socket positions 2 & 3 so they reverse the signal.
Bryan B
Dave Peck wrote:
You just need to reverse the traces going to pins 2 and 3 of the CA3080 op amp chip that is located closest to the power connector. This involves cutting two small PCB traces and soldering two small jumper wires to reverse the signal routing. It would be a bit difficult to do this right at the op amp pin locations but you can cut the traces and add the jumpers a bit further away from the IC by following these traces to their destinations.


Nice fix Dave (and Roger)! Thanks to your detailed description of the fix, I might have to try this out at some point. I have 2 of them (hoping to use them together with my AC Arcade (joystick module).
Dave Peck
hi Bryan, I just updated my post to include a possibly easier version of the mod that doesn't require cutting traces.
Bryan B
Cool update! Not sure which way to go now, but it seems easy enough to do.
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