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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

259e issue (audio added)
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge  
Author 259e issue (audio added)
missingtwin
Greetings Everyone,

First of all, thanks to everyone for the great Buchla info. The frequent flyers around here convinced me to go Buchla (and Eardrill)- and it's been a wild few weeks with my new system.

I do have a question about the 259e.

Playing the 259e via CV control (250e/266e/etc.) or with MIDI with the 281e utilizing a short decay and in any mode besides cyclic/lfo, there is a remnant of the tone played immediately before sounding the current tone. For example, if I play middle C, then play a G a 5th up, a very short snippet of the original middle C will sound before the G.

It sounds almost like a quick trill or grace note before the intended note and
this grace note is the tone played immediately before the currently held note. It's as if the oscillator remembers the previous note played and sounds
it very quickly before the current note. It's OK for certain playing styles, but becomes cumbersome when playing very quick passages.

Running the 261e through the same 281e/292e set up with the same CV or MIDI driving it produces none of these "ghost"notes.

If I open up the 292e all the way or plug the 259e directly into the mixer (207e), thus sustaining the tone, none of these trill notes occur.

If I increase the decay time on the 281e, the 259e ghost notes will eventually disappear - but so does my ability to play very short notes.

I've emailed Buchla about this but it usually takes a little while for them to respond so I thought I'd ask the crew here.

Thanks for any help!

[s]http://soundcloud.com/dbradleydavis/259e-ghost-notes[/s]


EDIT - I've added an audio example. First you hear the 259e playing a simple MIDI sequence. Notice that each time the note changes, a very short portion of the previous note will sound.

The next passage is the 261e playing the same sequence with the same 281e/292e settings. Notice how there are none of these trill/grace notes?

The example then plays the 259e and 261e again.

Any ideas?
missingtwin
So many cool things going on in the forum right now, I almost cringe bringing this up again, but I'm flummoxed!

Have mercy kind souls.

The 259e is not workable for me in this state. It's sad! I love the sounds this crazy baby makes. At any minimal or very short decay setting, it plays two notes, the current and a short (100ms or so) piece of the previous note. It's cool for some stuff, but not going to work with any expressive playing utilizing very short notes.

Things I've tried:
Reloaded the current firmware
Tried notes generated from MIDI, CV/Trigger, both show this behavior
Tried using bus E-H on the 225e (thought maybe it was an internal bus issue), nope-same things happens.
Going from the 259e on bus E, then switching it to the 261e on buss E, patched to the same envelope (with the remote enable off), the "trill" note happens only with the 259e (I believe this is what I did in the audio example above).

Is there something I'm overlooking or
iss this just the way it is with the 259e osc?
Veteran Buchla wigglers
HELP ME (help me help me {{echos}})
Lyonel
Seems like a sort of glide… which 259e software version you have ?
dougcl
This sounds like a small discrepancy between the 281e trigger and the 259e note change. The 281e is getting triggered slightly before the 259e gets a pitch change.

It would be great if you could eliminate midi from the test. You can use one channel of the 281e as a pulse source. Use that to trigger a second channel on the 281e to get an envelope. If you had a 266e, you could also send the pulse to the QRV section (in the middle) to generate pitch CV. If that method works, then you have some timing problem related to midi processing.
missingtwin
Hi Lionel!
It's the v30.2
I tried reloading the firmware this morning but it's still sounding the same.
It does sound like a glide. And it doesn't do this for every note change. Maybe 75% of the time. And these "glide" tones also seem to vary in length (but all under 250ms or so max).

Will someone try this for me please? Put your 281e in transient or sustain mode with decay at minimum setting and play discrete tones with your
259e. Does it do the glide/trill/grace note thing too like mine?
Thanks!
dougcl
Not a fix, but a workaround: you can use the 281e as a trigger delay. Put it in pulse mode (center setting). Set attack to near zero and decay to zero. Monitor the pulse out. The slight attack setting will delay the incoming pulse.

So you can use MIDI for note change, but not to trigger your envelope. Bring the midi trigger out and delay it using the 281e.
Lyonel
I'm in 259e V21 here, it doesn't do that.
missingtwin
thanks for the suggestion dougcl.
I tried eliminating MIDI.

The following audio clip:

Function generator 1 in LFO mode triggering envelope of function generator 2 and at the same time triggering the input C on the QRV section of the 266e

The CV from the 266e is going to the 259e.

I duplicated the envelope and ran it into another channel of the 292e.
I duplicated the CV from the 266e to the 261e.

First you hear the 259e, then the 261e under the same conditions. I ran the test again a second time (259e then 261e).

The problem seems to be isolated to the 259e.

http://soundcloud.com/dbradleydavis/259e-ghost-notes-v-2

Thanks much for the help!
solaris
weeeird...

could a reset of the 259e be useful or am I out of the track?
missingtwin
I hadn't thought of that solaris. i don't have the manual with me now. Can someone remind me of the steps in this procedure.
Lyonel
That's a micro glide, sort of unwelcome smoothing, I've seen that on some 259e/261e software versions.
missingtwin
Just checked my email, message from Don there...

He says the "trill" is a software artifact and will be fixed in the new firmware version.

Hopefully this is helpful info for someone else as well!

thanks all!

p.s. now please, please stop posting videos of that 296e! eek!
Minimoog56
Worrying about funny artifacts in the 259e is like expecting a Harley Fatboy to sound like a BMW 1200. Nature of the Beast to have aliasing and ghost like notes.
Lyonel
Sorry but, not like those ones, which are absolutely faulty and crippling defaults.
chrisso
Yep, I agree.
When you're paying this kind of money, you at least want the module to perform as advertised.
No timing issues and ghost notes from your oscillator or waveform generator.
missingtwin
You're right Mini, it's a unique and often unpredictable beast
of an osc. Its eccentricities are what makes it fun to use but most importantly expands its sound palate. The behavior exemplified above IMO severely
limits its potential and it's not surprising to me that Don is treating it as such.

In short, I can barely handle one fat boy, but two fat boys, one after the other
in quick succession - it's a tall order.
Lyonel
OK, V3 here too now, same very annoying slew on the CV input.
Anybody with a V301 or V303 version which doesn't behave like that ?
I tried a few hammer jabs on it, it didn't improved anything.
7thDanSound
I'm on v30.2 and I have it too. Also I think I found that the Mod Osc aliases a lot more on this version as well as has a different range but I may be mistaken here. None of these really matter to me as much as the first issue with gliding though.

I totally love the new synch on the 259e Mod Osc!
beenjammin
7thDanSound wrote:
I totally love the new synch on the 259e Mod Osc!

Can you say a bit more about this?
dougcl
beenjammin wrote:
7thDanSound wrote:
I totally love the new synch on the 259e Mod Osc!

Can you say a bit more about this?


https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51167
beenjammin
Thanks, Doug. Somehow I missed that thread. Jon's explanation is very compelling. Can't wait to upgrade it and everything else -- usb card is coming soon, which means you might get a pm from me smile.
wyrtti
Hi,
Sorry for resurrecting this, but has this issue been solved? I have an old 259e Complex with firmware 30.8 and I am getting this ghost note problem.

Love the 259e, but this problem is driving me crazy.

Regards,
Topi
wyrtti
Ok, so I finally got around to reflashing the firmware and it helped. 30.8 seems to work nicely. Also fixed other problems that had come up in my 259e. Oh, the joy of a working oscillator!

I did manage to record some weirdness when the oscillator was not working correctly. I guess it works both ways. smile
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