Serge Business Model

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Post by mono-poly » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:02 am

Ok be nice girls!

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Post by 2012 » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:37 am

suitandtieguy wrote:
2012 wrote:
suitandtieguy wrote:it's lame that guy can't spell.
check yourself first before commenting others
if you would stop typing like a 12 year old girl with a T-Mobile Sidekick and use legitimate grammar your words and perspective would be given more respect.
You could ask muff to program sPecialy for you something like an english grammar test at registration so ppl like me can not register!

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Post by parasitk » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:13 am

What's weird to me is that it seems like more people are getting into Serge now with the arrival of the M-Class... yet here's it's being said that people are abandoning Serge for Buchla because of a flawed business model? :despair: Just because a single person here is considering selling their panels to expand their 200e? :hmm:

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Post by HexEnduction » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:23 am

chrisso wrote: My point of view is that of a user, and of a Serge enthusiast (Serge, not so much STS).
I've been plain in saying Rex's business is his own business....none of my business.


So you're a fan of Serge but not STS and yet it's none of your business what STS does but you just want to hypothetically chat about how you would run said business because you don't really care for their business model etc etc etc. What's with all the double speak? You obviously care enough to talk about this issue on 3 separate threads and start your own specific thread about this very topic. Then you act all sore because people tell you this kind of circular logic is annoying and this topic is stale and isn't going anywhere. And when someone suggests you call Rex and run these ideas past him you say, nah...that's alright guys, not really interested in this anymore. I don't really understand the point of going on and on about this and then saying "never mind, no biggie".

chrisso wrote: My point is his decisions stop the spread of Serge usage, whereas most other modular makers' business models encourage the wider use of their modules.
I'm not trying to change Rex's model, just saying it's a shame more people aren't buying and enjoying Serge modules, as they now are Buchla for example. It's a shame Serge owners who have to contemplate selling their panels, know they can't replace them other than with pre-ordained module collections in future.
Sorry if this view seems to offend so many people.
What kind of quantitative data do you have to back this claim up? If anything, it seems like STS is selling more M-Class and Shop Panels lately and I think the reason behind this is the smaller initial cost and quick turnaround time of the M-Class panels.

B&A 200e systems have been quoted as taking about 3 months and beyond to reach customers. If I recall correctly there are probably a handful of members on this site that have completed 200e systems. I know that a few people have systems on order and others are awaiting additional modules to complete their systems. You make it sound like hordes of people are out there running around with 200e systems. Perhaps I'm wrong and maybe we need a poll or something to sort it all out.
chrisso wrote:Well I would happily end this, but people keep posting interesting, debatable points.
Fair enough.
chrisso wrote:Sorry, it was meant to be a meaningful debate on an unlikely to change (admittedly) scenario.
But there you have it.
It would be more meaningful if there was a resolution beyond insinuating that Rex is being stubborn because he won't conform to your wish list. Especially if you don't bother to call him and ask him. Although what would be the point, eh? BTW didn't you have a custom panel or two and sold them?

Not trying to drag this out any longer than it needs to be but I'm really baffled by your motives/logic. :huh:

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Post by HexEnduction » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:38 am

HexEnduction wrote: Perhaps I'm wrong and maybe we need a poll or something to sort it all out.
Here is a poll.

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Post by b3nsf » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:43 am

i bet you a 100$ dollars Rex will make you a custom panel......


.....If you buy 6 shop panels first!!! :love:
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Post by sascha.victoria » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:09 am

I just realized something kind of interesting about this thread. Over in the Plan B threads people were telling Peter left and right how to run his business. He would often come back with a reply saying this is how I chose to run my biz and then people would tear him apart. Weather or not this was warranted is another question. The bottom line is none of us have any business telling anyone how to run their business. This is true if the person is running it into the ground or if they're cruising along and doing great.

The only difference about this thread is that Rex hasn't chimed in to set you all straight and I'm glad he hasn't. Somebody on here probably would have tore apart whatever he said, then more bickering would ensue, etc...

If you all have something constructive and positive to say go for it but I really think people should get over this thread.

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Post by futureworlder » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:38 pm

sascha.victoria wrote:I just realized something kind of interesting about this thread. Over in the Plan B threads people were telling Peter left and right how to run his business. He would often come back with a reply saying this is how I chose to run my biz and then people would tear him apart. Weather or not this was warranted is another question. The bottom line is none of us have any business telling anyone how to run their business. This is true if the person is running it into the ground or if they're cruising along and doing great.

The only difference about this thread is that Rex hasn't chimed in to set you all straight and I'm glad he hasn't. Somebody on here probably would have tore apart whatever he said, then more bickering would ensue, etc...

If you all have something constructive and positive to say go for it but I really think people should get over this thread.
exactly. I think the greatest aspect of this entire argument has been hinted at, but I'd like to shine a nice bright light on it;

AVAILABILITY.

I for one, am humbled by the immense knowledge and insight provided to us by Rex, not only on the Serge circuit designs, but their history and improvements over the years. I am grateful for the opportunity to call the STS number, be able to speak directly to Rex himself (he usually answers!) and pick his brain about the uses and functions of the Serge designs. I trust in Rex, as he has more knowledge of the systems than anyone else at this point, and I find it refreshing to be in contact with that wealth of info. Where else can you get that?

I find it a little arrogant of musicians who would call the maker of an instrument 'presumptuous' as somehow their intimate knowledge of the design would dictate how one would make music. Perhaps this arrogance is par for the course. I highly doubt that at any given point in his career Jimi Hendrix ever bitched about how Leo Fender never made a left-handed strat; he simply strung it upside down and played it as only he knew how. Limitations tend to give rise to innovative approaches and adaptations to the technology. It never ceases to amaze me how unappreciative people can be, especially electronic musicians. Grow up. If you think you can do a better job, have at it; there's plenty of room in the sandbox but keep in mind that cats seem to love using it as a litterbox. :metasonix:

I LIKE the fact that Rex has made the Serge system more approachable by pre-configuring systems with like-minded modules that balance and work well together. I used to own an ARP2600 blue meanie and loved it dearly. The sounds I could pull out of that thing were immense. I got into Blacet to expand the ARP and eventually moved away from it, sold it and concentrated on the Frac format as I was gigging out more, and the ARP stuff, tolex and all, is more a studio piece these days; the upkeep from gigging a machine as old as I am was killing me.

I LOVE the fact that in a few weeks I will have a single M-boat containing a Creature and a Sequencer and with just those two m-odules I'll have enough sonic firepower to create entire albums and do live performances. AND, I can carry my whole setup in a record bag. I think the limitations are an acceptable compromise to have that much functionality packed into such a self-contained, portable package. Beautifully built, and completely shielded as well.

Perhaps people could do a little more research on the subject and realize just how lucky we all are to have this resource so readily available? Aside from being the proprietor of STS, Rex was the creator of alot of the Serge modules as well as improving on the 'standards' created by the originators of the sport. The NTO originated as Rex's need to improve the tracking of the MOOG OSC's in the T.O.N.T.O. system. That was back in '71. I wasn't even born until '72. The NTOs in Malcolm Cecil's system to this day have the Moog-style faceplates. So there; there's your individual Serge Oscillator modules. History, dude. I don't think Rex is intentionally trying to "stop the spread of Serge", more like, thinning the herd.

I think it's nothing short of fucking awesome that I can call Rex, spend an hour or so talking to him and having every question I could possibly think of asking about the Serge stuff, E.E. design and theory, history, etc. and getting all of my questions answered with a healthy dose of tips, anecdotes and Rexisms to boot. That alone is worth the price of admission.

To top it all off, when I'm finally ready to pull the trigger on a new system (brand-new, built-to-order for me, mind you, not 'pre-owned' or 'vigorously tested' etc.) it's great to know that I will have that system in my hands in a matter of weeks, not months or years. No dodgy emails, no B.S. reasoning or pushed-back delivery E.T.A.'s. Rex is a man of his word and that has to be considered a rare quality these days.

So if the O.P. has a beef with Rex or his business model, I say this; we should all be so lucky to be dealing with upfront, knowledgeable people. So you can't have another DSG in a panel without having to buy two; that's how it is. People in hell want ice water, too.* :deadbanana:

Show a little fucking respect; I think he has, and continues to have, earned it.

*No, that's not a Rexism, but at this point, I kinda I wish it was.

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Post by sascha.victoria » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:55 pm

Well said Futureworlder

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Post by chrisso » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:26 pm

HexEnduction wrote: You obviously care enough to talk about this issue on 3 separate threads and start your own specific thread about this very topic. Then you act all sore because people tell you this kind of circular logic is annoying and this topic is stale and isn't going anywhere. And when someone suggests you call Rex and run these ideas past him you say, nah...that's alright guys, not really interested in this anymore.
Please link to where I act sore because no one agrees with me.
Actually several pages ago I acknowledged and agreed with several members who said the debate was going nowhere.
I said 'OK' and added the embarrassed smiley icon.
Done and dusted, until......
I must admit I got a bit sore when people accused me of being a troll, and being arrogant and a bit of a dick just because I chose to contrast the current Buchla way of doing business with Rex's.
Rex is sooooo cool, you can't even discuss his sales practices?
No I wont be calling Rex, as I've had numerous conversations iwith him n the past, I'm also long in the tooth on the whole Serge scenario from various Serge groups and Analogue Heaven etc, etc, and I'm 100% aware of his attitude.
Why would I spend $$$ on an long distance international phone call just to hear what I already know?
In light of the recent rebirth of Buchla, I honestly thought it was time to discuss the current state of Serge, especially on a forum populated by extremely enthusiastic and knowledgeable modular synthesists.
I assumed it would be a reasonably short but interesting discussion, and didn't expect to be kicked in the nuts for even bringing the subject up.
Oh well, you live and learn.

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Post by chrisso » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:28 pm

parasitk wrote:yet here's it's being said that people are abandoning Serge for Buchla because of a flawed business model? :despair: Just because a single person here is considering selling their panels to expand their 200e? :hmm:
I didn't say that.

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Post by mono-poly » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:29 pm

The current state of Serge = M-odules
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Post by chrisso » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:34 pm

futureworlder wrote:So you can't have another DSG in a panel without having to buy two; that's how it is. People in hell want ice water, too.*
I regularly recommend the Wave Multiplier to friends and on forums. It's one awesome module IMO.
Want to buy one?
OK, you'll be paying for a Ring Modulator, A Triple Wave Shaper, A Mixer and an X Fader too.
If you think that's cool that's fine. I don't think it's all that cool. I also don't think it's a heinous crime to say so on a modular synth forum.
I'm not attacking you for liking the way STS works. I merely trying to discuss it.

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Post by mono-poly » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:36 pm

Ok i added someone to my ignore list now.
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Post by chrisso » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:40 pm

never mind.
:shut:

I'll get my coat.

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Post by panda30y » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:58 pm

chrisso wrote:never mind.
:shut:

I'll get my coat.
I sympathize with your perspective chrisso, and I hope you do stop replying because this thread is getting very repetitive and going nowhere as we have already said. You can't say you're done with the thread and keep coming back even if people do present more debatable points. This is just a dead topic now, and maybe someone will revisit it with something productive in the future, but for now, there isn't anything more to say.

I hope this hasn't deterred you away from participating more in this forum, because overall this is a great forum and mono-poly, parasitik, HexEnduction, and b3nsf are all great guys. You just have to take some of their comments with a grain of salt and realize they mean no ill will. Let's just bury this thread for now.

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Post by andrewF » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:12 pm

futureworlder wrote: Aside from being the proprietor of STS, Rex was the creator of alot of the Serge modules as well as improving on the 'standards' created by the originators of the sport. The NTO originated as Rex's need to improve the tracking of the MOOG OSC's in the T.O.N.T.O. system. That was back in '71. I wasn't even born until '72. The NTOs in Malcolm Cecil's system to this day have the Moog-style faceplates. So there; there's your individual Serge Oscillator modules. History, dude.
History?
The way thats written you imply Rex designed the NTO in 1971. Actually all he did was give Serge a call and help with the panel design.

from here
in Rex's words - "So, I introduced Malcolm [Cecil] & Kevin [Braheny] to [the] Serge [modular system] and that's how the design of the New Timbral Oscillator got started - as an upgrade for all the TONTO Moog osc.'s. I worked with Serge on making the Moog-like face plates with Serge's NTOs as the electronics."---Rex Probe

So Rex was " the creator of a lot of Serge modules", out of curiousity, except for the PDIV and the BLOG, exactly what modules has Rex designed? I don't think the new timing gens count as they are just rebadged PCOs or NTOs. Come on, someone make a list :razz:

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Post by aetherpulse » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:37 pm

Actually, If your referring to the TGO or the TGC, I think they are based off of the DSG. Of course I could be wrong about that...

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Post by NV » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:31 am

People need to calm down on both sides of the spectrum here. I think this is an interesting conversation with a lot of valid points, but it's hardly a debate worthy of dismissive hyperbole or bitter accusations.

I don't really understand why people have become so irate here when the STS approach is questioned, yet everything remains positive when someone discusses approaches for other formats. People requested 5U from ModCan and the friendly support lead to the B series. Macbeth is now making modules in addition to systems because there is positive support for the idea. Many Frac modules would never have happened if people hadn't encouraged manufacturers to support the format. That positive attitude has lead to brilliant modules and general results from Metasonix, Cwejman, Flame, Flight of Harmony, TipTop, Malekko, STG, Bubblesound, Harvestman, and Make Noise. New ideas, suggestions, and discussions should be welcome - historically only good things have come of it.

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Post by Kirk Degiorgio » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:50 am

NV wrote:People need to calm down on both sides of the spectrum here. I think this is an interesting conversation with a lot of valid points, but it's hardly a debate worthy of dismissive hyperbole or bitter accusations.
.
hear, hear... some ridiculous over-reactions to the original posters comments.

I like the fact that the M-Panels have reduced the entry price and speeded up the delivery times - I just wish the custom full panels (or custom M-Panels for that matter) were still an option.

I don't mind that they aren't available as individual modules, as I find there to be plenty enough interesting stuff to fill entire multiple panels with and it suits my "all or nothing" purchasing habits. :hyper:

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Post by 2012 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:55 am

andrewF wrote: what modules has Rex designed?
the bolean logic was a new module in the catalog when STS take over serge in 90ies,no?

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Post by andrewF » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:07 am

yep according to this page at
egres
the bool logic and pulse divider are Rex's ideas....
Is that it? two modules? (and really, boolean logic doesn't count, anyone can wire up some OR and AND gates on a cmos chip) :hmm:

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Post by 2012 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:09 am

i think rex don't (did not)need to made any efforts as everything that is good is already available in the whole range,it would be only more confusing to made a choice for serge newbies,its already one of the most complete most interesting modulars.

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Post by 2012 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:14 am

andrewF wrote: Is that it? two modules? (and really, boolean logic doesn't count, anyone can wire up some OR and AND gates on a cmos chip) :hmm:
am not sure (can't remember exactly)but when rex took over buzziness the wilson delay was not available i think,a bit later it was,so possible there was need for a re-design of the module!?

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Post by BananaPlug » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:18 am

Re. WAD. I got one in '97 as part of an STS Oakland era panel. They did go away for a while, maybe chips were hard to get. I'm glad it's back in the M series. It's a goodie.

Re. this thread. It kind of goes with the territory. The folks that make Buchla, EMS, Serge & Wiard have been doing it long enough for some of their fans to get frustrated about how certain things have turned out, but other folks are really happy with one of the above and want to defend their favorite or just have different opinions about things.

It seems worthwhile to bring these issues up now and then but I kind of doubt that these 7 pages will have any effect on the Serge Business Model. Anybody making this stuff has to make a lot of compromises and invariably will please some folks more than others. We can all jump in and say how we might do things differently but...

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