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Serge Synthesizers soon for euro
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 13, 14, 15  Next [all]
Author Serge Synthesizers soon for euro
ringstone
It is easier to find reasonably-priced racks etc. for Euro format though, at least here in Australia. That and the recent upsurge in Euro DIY projects has probably kept me to that format, I did consider both 5U and Frac at one stage...

Cheers
Blair
mojopin
waah
akrylik
If we are going to talk about HUGE, we should talk about American homes. Here in Asia, rooms are tiny. I lived in Germany when I was a child and I remember the rooms in old buildings were also small compared to those in the USA, although not as tiny as in Asia.

Euro sits in a sweet spot where you can get quite a bit of functionality in a case before it gets so big that it feels like a piece of furniture. So I would hypothesize that this psychological threshold is quite significant in Asia and Europe when someone is about to purchase a modular regardless of whether or not they are consciously aware of it. Of course to get to the euro size there was some compromises but that is nothing compared to the reduction in activation energy needed to ignite a purchase decision.
clarke68
CJ Miller wrote:
I have heard very few arguments for the format, apart from "because it's what everybody does".

Euro is where all of the momentum (and therefore the money) is in modulars these days. Manufacturers who ignore it do so at their peril, IMO. I hear you on the inferiority of the format, but for me it was all about price/performance. When I started last year, it was a choice between getting a 3U rack of Euro now or saving up for another year and getting a single M-Panel.
sascha.victoria
Has anyone improved the Euro power system yet? That was a big issue for me with module cross talk and noise when I had a small system a few years back.
bk
Quote:
What possible advantage is there to making them that much smaller?


Easier to carry?

Quote:
I have heard very few arguments for the format, apart from "because it's what everybody does".


Sometimes it's the ultimate argument - look at other technological formats wars in the past.
amnesia
What I was trying to say was I owned a Serge and still own a buchla and also own a euro modular and I didnt really think about the size diference.

I brought up your hands because you said they are a pain to play, so I assumed you must be talking about your hands hitting knobs etc :-)
RealDudes
I find my hands bumping the knobs pretty often. So much so that sometimes I wish I had gone 5U or MU or whatever. Also easier to DIY in that format, but more of a hassle to transport.
phisynth
mac rules. pc is shit w00t w00t
shamann
CJ Miller wrote:
My points was that I hear a lot of populist demand for things to be in this format, but never any practical reasons why it is desirable. It always seems a matter of preaching to the converted, for people who already make up their minds to embrace the format. Or people get dismissive and agree that "well, you don't need to like it...". But as a problem solver I still like to hear good arguments for it.

Are there technical benefits? I can't say, but I suspect not. I like the size of the format, takes up little space, a lot of synth function can be packed up in a compact form. But, in terms of size, Serge isn't much bigger and packs at least as much function in the same space, so I don't think that's a major consideration here.

I can only speak as a user, but for me the benefits are price, availability, and choice. Retail availability through AH, Big City, Schneiders, Moog Audio, etc, made a big difference for me. It made it easy to enter the format, build a system at my own pace, offered more than one sales channel, with several low cost options, and websites to browse for info before buying. There are a lot of case options, and a lot of manufacturers/modules to choose from.

I started a modular to get away from all the table top gear I was using (guitar pedals, small synth and fx boxes) mainly because keeping track of all the external power supplies was tedious with that set up. Euro was the most like that market (and BugBrand was near impossible to get) so it was the most natural fit for me.

Format wars are stupid. Trying to express the superiority of one format is pointless because users' needs are not all based on the same criteria. I'd love banana jacks in Euro, but it didn't rank high on my needs list, so I went without and I'm content with that choice. I know lots of other folk view that choice differently, hence we have Serge/Buchla/Bug users.
Low-Gain
Think if I was Rex I'd be a little pissed that Serge is selling most of his designs to someone who would build them in Euro format. DIY is one thing, but fully assembled, mass produced modules in Eurorack format (which just sounds gross to me personally)

That being said.. if the man himself wanted to license the DUSG circuit to me I'd happily make it in Euro for the masses.. lol lol
It's a killer module. How ever the Maths is a close comparison. not exact, but good enough for me! thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up

IMHO I'd say let Serge designs be exactly that.. Serge format. Eurorack format would only ruin the serge style of synthesis. It's an entirely different kind of thought process and I love it. Just wish I could afford to buy in!
lol lol
ersatzplanet
CJ Miller wrote:
Euro are a pain to build and to play. I have heard very few arguments for the format, apart from "because it's what everybody does".


I can fit over 100 modules (36U in 6 cases), powered speakers and a mixer in the back of my VW beetle. That is one reason for me. I am 6'3" and have large hands and it has never been a real problem for me. I make and use controllers a lot so I am probably diving into the cord sea less than many who still turn knobs directly.

As for the pain to build part - I have made a half a dozen 3U and 6U skiffs and cabinets for euro. It is VERY simple to make a custom shaped case and power it. The 3U panel size is easy to shape into ergonomic shapes and can fit into many small studios. They are VERY airlines carry-on friendly.

And of course the obvious - there are over 50 different module makers out there to choose from. If quality and panel layout is a concern you can stay away from the makers that don't fit your criteria. There are many makers who have large modules with space between the knobs and jacks and makers who use the highest quality components. The variety of choice is the main thing. Different makers with different philosophies and ways of looking at the same modular functions. Just look at the variety of filters or VCOs or other module types you can choose from in Euro.
ahmo
Maybe Serge is trying to help get his designs into more people's hands and perhaps less expensively. Considering he designed them to make an affordable synthesizer compared to the Buchla, and now they are a luxury item, this could bring the price of Serge in line with the designer's original philosophy. Unless the euro serge comes out to be the same or more expensive, then whatever. I think the more serge out there the better.
jenamu6
I'm starting to get even more happy now that I sold my Serge panel.

Now I can get the modules that matter.....and not feel sad or pissed because I paid (too) much for a Rex Serge.

and +1 what James and ahmo said.
AntManBee
CJ Miller wrote:
Fuck "Euro". It's like you already have Muppets, but people demand Muppet Babies. What possible advantage is there to making them that much smaller?

Euro are a pain to build and to play. I have heard very few arguments for the format, apart from "because it's what everybody does".


This seems a rather extreme reaction.

When I recently used a Serge Animal for the first time I was surprised that it didn't feel much less cramped than euro (you say that Serge is 25% larger, but 25% larger than what? Every euro manufacturer has a different approach to footprint and the only fixed dimension is the 3U height - euro modules vary in layout quite considerably and some, like Livewire or Macbeth, have quite a generous layout and Doepfer also seem to space the controls well. Some are very small it's true, but that's because people wanted 4hp utility modules).

The euro format is compact and portable and doesn't take over your studio or workspace.

I think it uncontroversial to say that euro is now the modular 'standard' and it makes complete sense that Serge Tcherepnin would wish to see his designs in euro format as his aim at the outset was to provide original, complex, multi-functional modules to people who couldn't afford Buchla or Moog.
HexEnduction
jenamu6 wrote:


Now I can get the modules that matter.....and not feel sad or pissed because I paid (too) much for a Rex Serge.


WAD? TKB? NTO?

And some of us feel like we didn't pay (too) much...
jenamu6
Sorry....I meant to say "The modules, that matter, to me"
TKB and NTO have been surpassed by other great designs in my opinion......

The WAD I never tried.

I really loved the filter, the waveshapers and the DUSG.......likely they will be made available to the masses.

My reaction was an attempt at humor/sarcasm and honest seriously, i just don't get it
CJ Miller
AntManBee wrote:
When I recently used a Serge Animal for the first time I was surprised that it didn't feel much less cramped than euro (you say that Serge is 25% larger, but 25% larger than what? Every euro manufacturer has a different approach to footprint and the only fixed dimension is the 3U height - euro modules vary in layout quite considerably and some, like Livewire or Macbeth, have quite a generous layout and Doepfer also seem to space the controls well. Some are very small it's true, but that's because people wanted 4hp utility modules).


I meant just that, that the difference between 3U and 4U is 25%. Other than this, panel density is determined by how much functionality is built into the module. Those Macbeth for instance look like they take up 1/2 to 1/3 of a 19" rack, which defeats the purpose of short rows of separate modules.

AntManBee wrote:
I think it uncontroversial to say that euro is now the modular 'standard' and it makes complete sense that Serge Tcherepnin would wish to see his designs in euro format as his aim at the outset was to provide original, complex, multi-functional modules to people who couldn't afford Buchla or Moog.


That's just the kind of backwards logic I am talking about. Making the 3U with 1/8" jacks doesn't make them more affordable. You can mount tapped rails in any size rack whatsoever to have separate modules. This is an advantage - but it is not in any way specific to 3U. Also it obviously complicates matters for people who already bought older Serge or STS, without bringing any obvious advantage.

IMO you needing to sidestep my questions by declaring the issue "uncontroversial" is just you being deliberately conformist. The controversy is that I have been hoping for new Serge, but I am very disappointed to see it appear in Euro, because I think it is a less robust format. This is why I asked for arguments to the contrary, which I think is a more reasoned reaction than mob mentality.
shamann
CJ Miller wrote:
The controversy is that I have been hoping for new Serge, but I am very disappointed to see it appear in Euro, because I think it is a less robust format.

Is anyone making third-party modules to work with STS Serge, in a similar way to what you see with Buchla?

The Euro market has proven to be open to all comers, in terms of economics it would be the easiest and most accessible for any new Serge licensee.
shaft9000
Nils wrote:
No banana option = no deal.



+1
cbm
I think that there are real reasons to go Euro with an endeavor like this. If I was running Eardrill more like a business, and less like a jobby, I would be making Eardrill stuff in Euro, too. One of the main reasons to go Euro is that there is a thriving market in the Eurorack zone. There are distributers of Euro gear (Analog Haven, SchneidersBuero, etc.) More people are invested in the infrastructure of Euro than any other format. There may be other business reasons that Serge doesn't want to go head to head with STS on this, as well.

Making modules with 3.5mm jacks is cheaper that making them with banana; the jacks themselves are a little cheaper, and the 3.5mm can be mounted on a circuit board instead of being hand wired. Banana jacks are really deep, too.

IMO, the biggest downside to the Eurorack is the power system. The distribution using unpolarized connectors is stupid, the lack of a standard +5 volt supply is stupid, and using +/- 12 volts is less good than using +/- 15.

In any case, it's where the largest market for modular gear is, so might as well follow the money.
AntManBee
I think that saying "fuck euro" is far more conformist than me stating, in terms of users and diversity of modules available (apparantly 600 from 50 different manufacturers), that euro is now the de facto modular standard. That's hardly side-stepping your questions. Seems you're just pissed-off that Serge is going to be available to many more users at an, incrementally at least, lower price-point than from Rex Probe, in keeping with Serge Tcherepnin's original intent.

CJ Miller wrote:
AntManBee wrote:
When I recently used a Serge Animal for the first time I was surprised that it didn't feel much less cramped than euro (you say that Serge is 25% larger, but 25% larger than what? Every euro manufacturer has a different approach to footprint and the only fixed dimension is the 3U height - euro modules vary in layout quite considerably and some, like Livewire or Macbeth, have quite a generous layout and Doepfer also seem to space the controls well. Some are very small it's true, but that's because people wanted 4hp utility modules).


I meant just that, that the difference between 3U and 4U is 25%. Other than this, panel density is determined by how much functionality is built into the module. Those Macbeth for instance look like they take up 1/2 to 1/3 of a 19" rack, which defeats the purpose of short rows of separate modules.

AntManBee wrote:
I think it uncontroversial to say that euro is now the modular 'standard' and it makes complete sense that Serge Tcherepnin would wish to see his designs in euro format as his aim at the outset was to provide original, complex, multi-functional modules to people who couldn't afford Buchla or Moog.


That's just the kind of backwards logic I am talking about. Making the 3U with 1/8" jacks doesn't make them more affordable. You can mount tapped rails in any size rack whatsoever to have separate modules. This is an advantage - but it is not in any way specific to 3U. Also it obviously complicates matters for people who already bought older Serge or STS, without bringing any obvious advantage.

IMO you needing to sidestep my questions by declaring the issue "uncontroversial" is just you being deliberately conformist. The controversy is that I have been hoping for new Serge, but I am very disappointed to see it appear in Euro, because I think it is a less robust format. This is why I asked for arguments to the contrary, which I think is a more reasoned reaction than mob mentality.
ignatius
as former modcan A user i wanted everything in banana.. i expanded with some frac metalbox and got banana .. was really nice to have that.. then got some euro and got a 1U 19in 1/8 to banana patch panel from metal box and that worked like a charm. i never thought about it "why this no come in banana?" anymore.

so, while i understand that it's nice to have all your modules w/the same jacks.. i have to say.. GET OVER IT. there are solutions to this issue.
some modules are easy to convert.. some not.. so, if you are dedicated to banana jacks (like i was) then you'll find a way.

and regarding the Euro hate from people who use other formats... meh GET OVER IT

why does it effect you, a user of another format, if someone makes modules in euro that are inspired by or part of the format you use???? is it because you now wanna switch? or is it because now other people can have what you have at a likely more customizable and less expensive format???

jesus.. really.. get over it.. go play with the synth you do have and make some music..

seems stupid to worry about what everyone else is doing and not worry about your own thing.

and if serge wants to sell HIS designs to anyone... he can... they're his! if you don't like that then tough shit.

and you can still buy whatever you want from Rex.. it's not like he's suddenly gonna stop doing what he's doing because some of the designs are gonna be in another format.
cbm
So what are people's top five Serge modules that they would like to see "ported" to Euro, anyway? Is there any sort of a consensus?
rico loverde
ignatius wrote:
and regarding the Euro hate from people who use other formats... meh GET OVER IT

why does it effect you, a user of another format, if someone makes modules in euro that are inspired by or part of the format you use???? is it because you now wanna switch? or is it because now other people can have what you have at a likely more customizable and less expensive format???

jesus.. really.. get over it.. go play with the synth you do have and make some music..

seems stupid to worry about what everyone else is doing and not worry about your own thing.

and if serge wants to sell HIS designs to anyone... he can... they're his! if you don't like that then tough shit.

and you can still buy whatever you want from Rex.. it's not like he's suddenly gonna stop doing what he's doing because some of the designs are gonna be in another format.
+100000000, well said.
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