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Serge Synthesizers soon for euro
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge  
Author Serge Synthesizers soon for euro
amnesia
did you know about this?
http://sergesynthesizers.com/

It is the Banalogue guy and he will be selling Serge euro modules.
wavecircle
No fucking way.

applause applause
RealDudes
all it says is serge synthesizers
and banalogue has been porting serge designs for some time
right?
RealDudes
did I just get punk'd?
richard
no something new is in the air. Seems like he is intending to offer something substantially more than just a couple of modules. Might be a nice budget system option, or a cheaper way of bulking up an existing systems?

Nanas would be an important option for me - might just as well DIY otherwise.

But it looks very much like Serge is going to be available in both 4U and 3U with both commercial and DIY options!
greydominion
love
infradead
a little more info in this thread

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=783452#783452
rico loverde
great news SlayerBadger!
rayce
Wonder what Rex thinks about this. Thought that he had some sort of rights to the designs?
infradead
from my above link

Bananalogue wrote:


im not giving any time table, but you will see "serge" brand euro rack modules and instrument pedals from me in the coming months. they are fully endorsed by serge tcherepnin himself, with royalties paid to him for his designs. good karma all around.

i will update the sergesynthesizers.com website when modules become available.
RealDudes
can we convince Gur to make more stackables now?
ignatius
wow. curious to see how this pans out. exciting news.

the world is bending further towards eurorack. big surprise
chrisso
richard wrote:

Nanas would be an important option for me - might just as well DIY otherwise.


Bananas on a Eurorack module would be a design disaster IMO.

Which Serge modules would be advantageous in Euro format, now we have Maths, plus a plethora of filters, quality oscillators and wave folders?
amnesia
to me its now all about the WAD and Serge filters, nothing touches them :-)
pas
chrisso wrote:

Bananas on a Eurorack module would be a design disaster IMO.


Why?
toppobrillo
Quote:
to me its now all about the WAD and Serge filters, nothing touches them :-)


The wad isn't gonna happen, if any semblance of it did, it won't be very close to the original, if they expect to make more than a few and euro friendly size price and depth wise.

Filters- what all euro filters have you compared which serge filters to?
toppobrillo
Quote:

chrisso wrote:

Bananas on a Eurorack module would be a design disaster IMO.


I think the option to have them would be great, but imo the mechanical requirements for building euro modules to reasonable' widths/ depths and accomodate either would make this tricky.. Although, the jacks bananalogue currently uses have the same size mounting hole as Emerson bananas.. Dunno about the brand that sts uses.

Curious to see what's in store!
amnesia
toppobrillo wrote:
Quote:
to me its now all about the WAD and Serge filters, nothing touches them :-)


Filters- what all euro filters have you compared which serge filters to?


I havent heard any euro filters that have that stone/glassy sound the Serge has. I own many euro filters.
amnesia
it is doeable though :-) Most of the time its fairly simple.

Here is my first modular system back in 2006-2007 I used it to enhance the Serge I had at the time.
chrisso
pas wrote:
chrisso wrote:

Bananas on a Eurorack module would be a design disaster IMO.


Why?


Because every other Eurorack module is mini-jack.
chrisso
amnesia wrote:

I havent heard any euro filters that have that stone/glassy sound the Serge has. I own many euro filters.


I agree that the breadth in Euro filters is still quite narrow.
I can't say that I particularly desire another Serge filter. Nothing bad to say, but nothing outstanding either IMO.

I really like the Toppo filter (as an aside).
amnesia
Just had confirmation from Ken Stone who is the maker of the PCB's that it will be euro format jacks ( no banana) Also no WAD impossible parts to get.
essex sound lab
amnesia wrote:
Just had confirmation from Ken Stone who is the maker of the PCB's that it will be euro format jacks ( no banana)


Well, that's a bummer. Being able to expand a Serge system in a more incremental way -- and with more distribution -- would seem to be a win to me.
subterryanean
I'd love to see the VCQF, all three sections of the Wav. Mult, and Random Source.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
chrisso wrote:
I agree that the breadth in Euro filters is still quite narrow.

I think that statement requires qualification. What, exactly, are we missing? We've got 4-pole cascade filters, state-variable filters, MS-20 clones, diode ladder filters, wasp filters, polyvoks filters, SEM filters, voltage-controlled resonators, lowpass gates -- that's just what I could think of typing this response.
amnesia
I personally love banana jacks and I think Serge got it right but Ken Stone has a very early Serge and it was all mini jacks.
chrisso
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
chrisso wrote:
I agree that the breadth in Euro filters is still quite narrow.

I think that statement requires qualification. What, exactly, are we missing? We've got 4-pole cascade filters, state-variable filters, MS-20 clones, diode ladder filters, wasp filters, polyvoks filters, SEM filters, voltage-controlled resonators, lowpass gates -- that's just what I could think of typing this response.


It's not that there isn't a couple of everything, it's that there seems to have been an emphasis on diode, dirty type filters, ala Korg, wasp, polyvoks.
Seracs
Remember the VCQF is also a CV processor, and the STS ones have massive headroom.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
chrisso wrote:
It's not that there isn't a couple of everything, it's that there seems to have been an emphasis on diode, dirty type filters, ala Korg, wasp, polyvoks.

Ah, I see. Can't necessarily argue with that (although my two contributions to the art so far both do clean extremely well (I'm referring to the Korgasmatron and the Dr. Octature).
chrisso
Is there a Euro filter that really nails the Oberheim SEM. I love my 4 Voice?
Also, I don't think there is anything that sounds like the Synthacon filter exactly, although I know there are 'Steiner' filters.
I'm all for more filters, so bring on the Serge. But I think there are more interesting Serge modules.
However, now Makenoise has sort of done the DUSG, and Intellijel has sort of done the UAD, and a few makers have done the waveshaper, the uniquely Serge modules are getting fewer IMHO.

A VC Resonant EQ would be incredible. Although it would have to sound AS GOOD as the Ser RESEQ
richard
chrisso wrote:
I can't say that I particularly desire another Serge filter. Nothing bad to say, but nothing outstanding either IMO.



chrisso wrote:


A VC Resonant EQ would be incredible. Although it would have to sound AS GOOD as the Ser RESEQ


So being able to choose bananas in euro would be a "disaster" and the filter is "incredible" but not "outstanding"?

WTF are you even talking about? seriously, i just don't get it
Nils
No banana option = no deal.

The VCFQ sounds nice, but more than anything it feels essential in a Serge system because of its Swiss Army knife nature.

All IMHO of course..
chrisso
richard wrote:


So being able to choose bananas in euro would be a "disaster"


How many customers would there be?
Euro/mini-jack is a large market. Serge/banana, much smaller.
But if Bananalogue are game - have at it.

Quote:

WTF are you even talking about? seriously, i just don't get it


Ha, ha, yes I see you are being semantic. I think we were talking about the Serge filter modules with 'filter' in their title. And no a Serge VC Resonant EQ doesn't exist, although if it did I think it would be great.
But if you really had to nail me to the wall then yes, the Resonant EQ is the only great filter in the Serge range for my taste - i.n.m.y.h.u.m.b.l.e.o.p.i.n.i.o.n.
tIB
Serge things I would like in module form: resonant eq, wave multipliers, triple folder, frequency shifter, WAD, filter... pretty much anything that processes audio.

I want/would buy them in bananas- banana frac would be perfect, even more so with blue panels. hihi

Tbh if I could have bought serge in modules as opposed to panels I'd have all of those now.

Anyway, great news and good luck getting it all together.
BananaPlug
Quote:
I want/would buy them in bananas- banana frac would be perfect, even more so with blue panels

Yup. I can understand making them for the euro crowd (lots of users, 12V) but maybe they will be nice enough to sell hard core banana fans assembled and tested boards w.o. the panels. Something like Serge in the days of the paper-faced kits. We could replace the jacks and make up frac panels in lasered acrylic (blue is nice).
sascha.victoria
It's been a while since Bananalogue was around but I don't recall them being consistantly available. Time will tell how all this will pan out.
AntManBee
Bananalogue wrote:
im not giving any time table, but you will see "serge" brand euro rack modules and instrument pedals from me in the coming months. they are fully endorsed by serge tcherepnin himself, with royalties paid to him for his designs. good karma all around.

i will update the sergesynthesizers.com website when modules become available.


Wonderful - perhaps I'll be able to forget about buying an Animal now and just alter my euro set-up. This seems completely in the spirit of Serge Tcherepnin's aims with the original modules.
confusional
Best wishes to everyone who is excited about Ken Stone releasing Serge designs in Euro rack format. w00t
HexEnduction
An interesting development considering the price bump message posted on Quadslope. cry
chinard
i seem to be missing something...
where does it say anything about euro? seriously, i just don't get it
Cheradenine
Here ?

Bananalogue wrote:
im not giving any time table, but you will see "serge" brand euro rack modules and instrument pedals from me in the coming months. they are fully endorsed by serge tcherepnin himself, with royalties paid to him for his designs. good karma all around.

i will update the sergesynthesizers.com website when modules become available.
Nils
I'm really excited to see the panel designs. For me, one of the most important aspects of Serge is the quality of the ergonomics and the layout. I noticed the use of the Eras font on the website, so I guess at least he's looking to the graphic design of the original Serge panels?

I'm also excited to see what modules will be available. So no WAD. And prolly no TKB...? I think the '96 STS Serge catalog counted 65 different modules.
amnesia
Not Ken but Seth. Ken is just making the PCBs.
polyroy
Great news. At least we won't have as many 'what's the best Serge module x copy in Euro' threads! Be really interested to see the final product and pricing etc.
wavecircle
DUSG will give maths a run for its money.

Its the wave multipliers, triple waveshaper and filters that really kick ass in Serge. Those combined with digital oscillators and LPGs w00t
CJ Miller
Fuck "Euro". It's like you already have Muppets, but people demand Muppet Babies. What possible advantage is there to making them that much smaller?

Euro are a pain to build and to play. I have heard very few arguments for the format, apart from "because it's what everybody does".
amnesia
I dont see much of a difference at all between the size of Serge/ Buchla and the euro format. You must have HUGE hands if you find it a pain to play.

Its never bothered me.
jenamu6
amnesia wrote:
I dont see much of a difference at all between the size of Serge/ Buchla and the euro format. You must have HUGE hands if you find it a pain to play.

Its never bothered me.


First thing that struck me when I finally had my first(and last) Serge panel.....damn that's just a tad bigger than euro.
CJ Miller
amnesia wrote:
I dont see much of a difference at all between the size of Serge/ Buchla and the euro format.


It's a difference of 25%...

amnesia wrote:
You must have HUGE hands if you find it a pain to play.


You must have FEW arguments for the format if you resort to discussing my hands.

From an engineering perspective, I can hardly build Euro with the parts I'd want. And if I bought them, I'd still need to replace the hardware. Also I find that the longer PCBs with DIP power busses are more efficient to lay out than a more squared layout for Euro. Sure, these problems can be worked around. But why? What is the goal of doing this?

My points was that I hear a lot of populist demand for things to be in this format, but never any practical reasons why it is desirable. It always seems a matter of preaching to the converted, for people who already make up their minds to embrace the format. Or people get dismissive and agree that "well, you don't need to like it...". But as a problem solver I still like to hear good arguments for it.
Corbeau
CJ Miller wrote:

Euro are a pain to build and to play. I have heard very few arguments for the format, apart from "because it's what everybody does".


Cheaper to buy in increments, for one thing. And for those of us with small hands, they're not hard too play wink

But I also like the sheer diversity in modules. Between Makenoise and Harvestman alone, you've got a quite a large sonic palette to choose from. There's a lot of room for personal customization, more so than other formats it would seem. But then again, I've only ever owned a Euro system, so I might be completely wrong there.
ringstone
It is easier to find reasonably-priced racks etc. for Euro format though, at least here in Australia. That and the recent upsurge in Euro DIY projects has probably kept me to that format, I did consider both 5U and Frac at one stage...

Cheers
Blair
mojopin
waah
akrylik
If we are going to talk about HUGE, we should talk about American homes. Here in Asia, rooms are tiny. I lived in Germany when I was a child and I remember the rooms in old buildings were also small compared to those in the USA, although not as tiny as in Asia.

Euro sits in a sweet spot where you can get quite a bit of functionality in a case before it gets so big that it feels like a piece of furniture. So I would hypothesize that this psychological threshold is quite significant in Asia and Europe when someone is about to purchase a modular regardless of whether or not they are consciously aware of it. Of course to get to the euro size there was some compromises but that is nothing compared to the reduction in activation energy needed to ignite a purchase decision.
clarke68
CJ Miller wrote:
I have heard very few arguments for the format, apart from "because it's what everybody does".

Euro is where all of the momentum (and therefore the money) is in modulars these days. Manufacturers who ignore it do so at their peril, IMO. I hear you on the inferiority of the format, but for me it was all about price/performance. When I started last year, it was a choice between getting a 3U rack of Euro now or saving up for another year and getting a single M-Panel.
sascha.victoria
Has anyone improved the Euro power system yet? That was a big issue for me with module cross talk and noise when I had a small system a few years back.
bk
Quote:
What possible advantage is there to making them that much smaller?


Easier to carry?

Quote:
I have heard very few arguments for the format, apart from "because it's what everybody does".


Sometimes it's the ultimate argument - look at other technological formats wars in the past.
amnesia
What I was trying to say was I owned a Serge and still own a buchla and also own a euro modular and I didnt really think about the size diference.

I brought up your hands because you said they are a pain to play, so I assumed you must be talking about your hands hitting knobs etc :-)
RealDudes
I find my hands bumping the knobs pretty often. So much so that sometimes I wish I had gone 5U or MU or whatever. Also easier to DIY in that format, but more of a hassle to transport.
phisynth
mac rules. pc is shit w00t w00t
shamann
CJ Miller wrote:
My points was that I hear a lot of populist demand for things to be in this format, but never any practical reasons why it is desirable. It always seems a matter of preaching to the converted, for people who already make up their minds to embrace the format. Or people get dismissive and agree that "well, you don't need to like it...". But as a problem solver I still like to hear good arguments for it.

Are there technical benefits? I can't say, but I suspect not. I like the size of the format, takes up little space, a lot of synth function can be packed up in a compact form. But, in terms of size, Serge isn't much bigger and packs at least as much function in the same space, so I don't think that's a major consideration here.

I can only speak as a user, but for me the benefits are price, availability, and choice. Retail availability through AH, Big City, Schneiders, Moog Audio, etc, made a big difference for me. It made it easy to enter the format, build a system at my own pace, offered more than one sales channel, with several low cost options, and websites to browse for info before buying. There are a lot of case options, and a lot of manufacturers/modules to choose from.

I started a modular to get away from all the table top gear I was using (guitar pedals, small synth and fx boxes) mainly because keeping track of all the external power supplies was tedious with that set up. Euro was the most like that market (and BugBrand was near impossible to get) so it was the most natural fit for me.

Format wars are stupid. Trying to express the superiority of one format is pointless because users' needs are not all based on the same criteria. I'd love banana jacks in Euro, but it didn't rank high on my needs list, so I went without and I'm content with that choice. I know lots of other folk view that choice differently, hence we have Serge/Buchla/Bug users.
Low-Gain
Think if I was Rex I'd be a little pissed that Serge is selling most of his designs to someone who would build them in Euro format. DIY is one thing, but fully assembled, mass produced modules in Eurorack format (which just sounds gross to me personally)

That being said.. if the man himself wanted to license the DUSG circuit to me I'd happily make it in Euro for the masses.. lol lol
It's a killer module. How ever the Maths is a close comparison. not exact, but good enough for me! thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up

IMHO I'd say let Serge designs be exactly that.. Serge format. Eurorack format would only ruin the serge style of synthesis. It's an entirely different kind of thought process and I love it. Just wish I could afford to buy in!
lol lol
ersatzplanet
CJ Miller wrote:
Euro are a pain to build and to play. I have heard very few arguments for the format, apart from "because it's what everybody does".


I can fit over 100 modules (36U in 6 cases), powered speakers and a mixer in the back of my VW beetle. That is one reason for me. I am 6'3" and have large hands and it has never been a real problem for me. I make and use controllers a lot so I am probably diving into the cord sea less than many who still turn knobs directly.

As for the pain to build part - I have made a half a dozen 3U and 6U skiffs and cabinets for euro. It is VERY simple to make a custom shaped case and power it. The 3U panel size is easy to shape into ergonomic shapes and can fit into many small studios. They are VERY airlines carry-on friendly.

And of course the obvious - there are over 50 different module makers out there to choose from. If quality and panel layout is a concern you can stay away from the makers that don't fit your criteria. There are many makers who have large modules with space between the knobs and jacks and makers who use the highest quality components. The variety of choice is the main thing. Different makers with different philosophies and ways of looking at the same modular functions. Just look at the variety of filters or VCOs or other module types you can choose from in Euro.
ahmo
Maybe Serge is trying to help get his designs into more people's hands and perhaps less expensively. Considering he designed them to make an affordable synthesizer compared to the Buchla, and now they are a luxury item, this could bring the price of Serge in line with the designer's original philosophy. Unless the euro serge comes out to be the same or more expensive, then whatever. I think the more serge out there the better.
jenamu6
I'm starting to get even more happy now that I sold my Serge panel.

Now I can get the modules that matter.....and not feel sad or pissed because I paid (too) much for a Rex Serge.

and +1 what James and ahmo said.
AntManBee
CJ Miller wrote:
Fuck "Euro". It's like you already have Muppets, but people demand Muppet Babies. What possible advantage is there to making them that much smaller?

Euro are a pain to build and to play. I have heard very few arguments for the format, apart from "because it's what everybody does".


This seems a rather extreme reaction.

When I recently used a Serge Animal for the first time I was surprised that it didn't feel much less cramped than euro (you say that Serge is 25% larger, but 25% larger than what? Every euro manufacturer has a different approach to footprint and the only fixed dimension is the 3U height - euro modules vary in layout quite considerably and some, like Livewire or Macbeth, have quite a generous layout and Doepfer also seem to space the controls well. Some are very small it's true, but that's because people wanted 4hp utility modules).

The euro format is compact and portable and doesn't take over your studio or workspace.

I think it uncontroversial to say that euro is now the modular 'standard' and it makes complete sense that Serge Tcherepnin would wish to see his designs in euro format as his aim at the outset was to provide original, complex, multi-functional modules to people who couldn't afford Buchla or Moog.
HexEnduction
jenamu6 wrote:


Now I can get the modules that matter.....and not feel sad or pissed because I paid (too) much for a Rex Serge.


WAD? TKB? NTO?

And some of us feel like we didn't pay (too) much...
jenamu6
Sorry....I meant to say "The modules, that matter, to me"
TKB and NTO have been surpassed by other great designs in my opinion......

The WAD I never tried.

I really loved the filter, the waveshapers and the DUSG.......likely they will be made available to the masses.

My reaction was an attempt at humor/sarcasm and honest seriously, i just don't get it
CJ Miller
AntManBee wrote:
When I recently used a Serge Animal for the first time I was surprised that it didn't feel much less cramped than euro (you say that Serge is 25% larger, but 25% larger than what? Every euro manufacturer has a different approach to footprint and the only fixed dimension is the 3U height - euro modules vary in layout quite considerably and some, like Livewire or Macbeth, have quite a generous layout and Doepfer also seem to space the controls well. Some are very small it's true, but that's because people wanted 4hp utility modules).


I meant just that, that the difference between 3U and 4U is 25%. Other than this, panel density is determined by how much functionality is built into the module. Those Macbeth for instance look like they take up 1/2 to 1/3 of a 19" rack, which defeats the purpose of short rows of separate modules.

AntManBee wrote:
I think it uncontroversial to say that euro is now the modular 'standard' and it makes complete sense that Serge Tcherepnin would wish to see his designs in euro format as his aim at the outset was to provide original, complex, multi-functional modules to people who couldn't afford Buchla or Moog.


That's just the kind of backwards logic I am talking about. Making the 3U with 1/8" jacks doesn't make them more affordable. You can mount tapped rails in any size rack whatsoever to have separate modules. This is an advantage - but it is not in any way specific to 3U. Also it obviously complicates matters for people who already bought older Serge or STS, without bringing any obvious advantage.

IMO you needing to sidestep my questions by declaring the issue "uncontroversial" is just you being deliberately conformist. The controversy is that I have been hoping for new Serge, but I am very disappointed to see it appear in Euro, because I think it is a less robust format. This is why I asked for arguments to the contrary, which I think is a more reasoned reaction than mob mentality.
shamann
CJ Miller wrote:
The controversy is that I have been hoping for new Serge, but I am very disappointed to see it appear in Euro, because I think it is a less robust format.

Is anyone making third-party modules to work with STS Serge, in a similar way to what you see with Buchla?

The Euro market has proven to be open to all comers, in terms of economics it would be the easiest and most accessible for any new Serge licensee.
shaft9000
Nils wrote:
No banana option = no deal.



+1
cbm
I think that there are real reasons to go Euro with an endeavor like this. If I was running Eardrill more like a business, and less like a jobby, I would be making Eardrill stuff in Euro, too. One of the main reasons to go Euro is that there is a thriving market in the Eurorack zone. There are distributers of Euro gear (Analog Haven, SchneidersBuero, etc.) More people are invested in the infrastructure of Euro than any other format. There may be other business reasons that Serge doesn't want to go head to head with STS on this, as well.

Making modules with 3.5mm jacks is cheaper that making them with banana; the jacks themselves are a little cheaper, and the 3.5mm can be mounted on a circuit board instead of being hand wired. Banana jacks are really deep, too.

IMO, the biggest downside to the Eurorack is the power system. The distribution using unpolarized connectors is stupid, the lack of a standard +5 volt supply is stupid, and using +/- 12 volts is less good than using +/- 15.

In any case, it's where the largest market for modular gear is, so might as well follow the money.
AntManBee
I think that saying "fuck euro" is far more conformist than me stating, in terms of users and diversity of modules available (apparantly 600 from 50 different manufacturers), that euro is now the de facto modular standard. That's hardly side-stepping your questions. Seems you're just pissed-off that Serge is going to be available to many more users at an, incrementally at least, lower price-point than from Rex Probe, in keeping with Serge Tcherepnin's original intent.

CJ Miller wrote:
AntManBee wrote:
When I recently used a Serge Animal for the first time I was surprised that it didn't feel much less cramped than euro (you say that Serge is 25% larger, but 25% larger than what? Every euro manufacturer has a different approach to footprint and the only fixed dimension is the 3U height - euro modules vary in layout quite considerably and some, like Livewire or Macbeth, have quite a generous layout and Doepfer also seem to space the controls well. Some are very small it's true, but that's because people wanted 4hp utility modules).


I meant just that, that the difference between 3U and 4U is 25%. Other than this, panel density is determined by how much functionality is built into the module. Those Macbeth for instance look like they take up 1/2 to 1/3 of a 19" rack, which defeats the purpose of short rows of separate modules.

AntManBee wrote:
I think it uncontroversial to say that euro is now the modular 'standard' and it makes complete sense that Serge Tcherepnin would wish to see his designs in euro format as his aim at the outset was to provide original, complex, multi-functional modules to people who couldn't afford Buchla or Moog.


That's just the kind of backwards logic I am talking about. Making the 3U with 1/8" jacks doesn't make them more affordable. You can mount tapped rails in any size rack whatsoever to have separate modules. This is an advantage - but it is not in any way specific to 3U. Also it obviously complicates matters for people who already bought older Serge or STS, without bringing any obvious advantage.

IMO you needing to sidestep my questions by declaring the issue "uncontroversial" is just you being deliberately conformist. The controversy is that I have been hoping for new Serge, but I am very disappointed to see it appear in Euro, because I think it is a less robust format. This is why I asked for arguments to the contrary, which I think is a more reasoned reaction than mob mentality.
ignatius
as former modcan A user i wanted everything in banana.. i expanded with some frac metalbox and got banana .. was really nice to have that.. then got some euro and got a 1U 19in 1/8 to banana patch panel from metal box and that worked like a charm. i never thought about it "why this no come in banana?" anymore.

so, while i understand that it's nice to have all your modules w/the same jacks.. i have to say.. GET OVER IT. there are solutions to this issue.
some modules are easy to convert.. some not.. so, if you are dedicated to banana jacks (like i was) then you'll find a way.

and regarding the Euro hate from people who use other formats... meh GET OVER IT

why does it effect you, a user of another format, if someone makes modules in euro that are inspired by or part of the format you use???? is it because you now wanna switch? or is it because now other people can have what you have at a likely more customizable and less expensive format???

jesus.. really.. get over it.. go play with the synth you do have and make some music..

seems stupid to worry about what everyone else is doing and not worry about your own thing.

and if serge wants to sell HIS designs to anyone... he can... they're his! if you don't like that then tough shit.

and you can still buy whatever you want from Rex.. it's not like he's suddenly gonna stop doing what he's doing because some of the designs are gonna be in another format.
cbm
So what are people's top five Serge modules that they would like to see "ported" to Euro, anyway? Is there any sort of a consensus?
rico loverde
ignatius wrote:
and regarding the Euro hate from people who use other formats... meh GET OVER IT

why does it effect you, a user of another format, if someone makes modules in euro that are inspired by or part of the format you use???? is it because you now wanna switch? or is it because now other people can have what you have at a likely more customizable and less expensive format???

jesus.. really.. get over it.. go play with the synth you do have and make some music..

seems stupid to worry about what everyone else is doing and not worry about your own thing.

and if serge wants to sell HIS designs to anyone... he can... they're his! if you don't like that then tough shit.

and you can still buy whatever you want from Rex.. it's not like he's suddenly gonna stop doing what he's doing because some of the designs are gonna be in another format.
+100000000, well said.
CJ Miller
shamann wrote:
Is anyone making third-party modules to work with STS Serge, in a similar way to what you see with Buchla?

The Euro market has proven to be open to all comers, in terms of economics it would be the easiest and most accessible for any new Serge licensee.


Who else does 4U? CGS, Craig Lee, Andrew, myself. Euro uses compatible voltages. Bugs uses nanners. But again this risks making technical decisions based on who is doing it, rather than technical criteria. Any size rack or module is equally open, you buy the hardware and build your system into it. Making it 3U might help a few people who actually need a particularly tiny setup, but there is not anything special about 3U which makes it cheaper, better sounding, easier to build, or easier to play. It still sounds like another version of "it's easy to decide, because I've already had my mind made up for me".
jenamu6
cbm wrote:
So what are people's top five Serge modules that they would like to see "ported" to Euro, anyway? Is there any sort of a consensus?


For me:
DUSG
Wave multipliers
Variable Q VCF

mmm that's just 3 for me.
theboddy
It's not the instrument that makes the music it's you, the musician.

Use whatever works for you.

It doesn't matter.

The music is what counts.

Dead Banana
ignatius
CJ Miller wrote:
shamann wrote:
Is anyone making third-party modules to work with STS Serge, in a similar way to what you see with Buchla?

The Euro market has proven to be open to all comers, in terms of economics it would be the easiest and most accessible for any new Serge licensee.


Who else does 4U? CGS, Craig Lee, Andrew, myself. Euro uses compatible voltages. Bugs uses nanners. But again this risks making technical decisions based on who is doing it, rather than technical criteria. Any size rack or module is equally open, you buy the hardware and build your system into it. Making it 3U might help a few people who actually need a particularly tiny setup, but there is not anything special about 3U which makes it cheaper, better sounding, easier to build, or easier to play. It still sounds like another version of "it's easy to decide, because I've already had my mind made up for me".


so what? is there something special about 4u or 5u?

c'mon man.. there are various formats that exist. some are more popular than others. people pick the one they like for whatever reason... price, availability, sound, fat fingers, blah blah blah...

i really don't get why people get up in arms about this kind of shit and really, i thought people here at muff's were past this kind of stupid format war nonsense.. other then the funny jab/joke at each other.

anyway - back to the serge in euro.. i'm curious to see which modules show up first in euro. i have zero experience with serge and have never looked long at what's there.. though, like everyone else i want the thing that will not be made.. the WAD. id be happy if there was some part of it made into euro.. even just flanger.. but if Bruce makes a the modcan flanger in euro then i'll jump on that since it's in my top 3 of fav modules ever. that modcan flanger is just awesome and weird and wonderful.
sascha.victoria
You guys are arguing over a product that doesn't exist. Who knows if and when it will exist and how much of the Serge product line it will represent.
Ekofisk
sascha.victoria wrote:
You guys are arguing over a product that doesn't exist.


That's a first. 8_)

That being said, the more the merrier, I think. How can more available designs available in more formats be a bad thing for anyone into modular?
CJ Miller
ignatius wrote:
why does it effect you, a user of another format, if someone makes modules in euro that are inspired by or part of the format you use???? is it because you now wanna switch? or is it because now other people can have what you have at a likely more customizable and less expensive format???


Why? Because Serge has already established itself in one format. It sucks for people who don't want to switch. And I seriously doubt that 4U and 5U modules are more expensive than 3U. Or are you comparing to whole panels?

ignatius wrote:
seems stupid to worry about what everyone else is doing and not worry about your own thing.


Making decisions based on economics is a show of simple, brute force. It's crude, and it does affect what I do. Mathematics is great, but economics is just math adulterated with wishful thinking, ie bullshit. If reality was good enough for people, they'd be scientists. And if reality isn't good enough for them... then I guess they have personal problems, and I should not let them affect me.
Ekofisk
CJ Miller wrote:

Why? Because Serge has already established itself in one format. It sucks for people who don't want to switch.


This doesn't make any sense to me. Care to qualify?
ignatius
Ekofisk wrote:
sascha.victoria wrote:
You guys are arguing over a product that doesn't exist.


That's a first. 8_)

That being said, the more the merrier, I think. How can more available designs available in more formats be a bad thing for anyone into modular?


+1

there are already a few serge designs in euro and serge inspired things in euro...

now suddenly that "official" serge designs may be widely available THE SKY IS FALLING meh
clarke68
cbm wrote:
So what are people's top five Serge modules that they would like to see "ported" to Euro, anyway? Is there any sort of a consensus?

DUSG
WAD (I know, I know...)
TWS
SSG

...and any/all of the VCFs and VCOs.
CJ Miller
ignatius wrote:
i really don't get why people get up in arms about this kind of shit and really, i thought people here at muff's were past this kind of stupid format war nonsense.. other then the funny jab/joke at each other.


I thought I pre-emptively deflated that with the Muppet VS Muppet Babies example! I might be upset over the whole Eurorack lemming phenomena, but I am not upset at you cats personally. There are some Euro modules which I'd love to try, but buying them just to mod them, bananify, and probably re-case them seems like a lot of hassle. And it seems more balanced if people make the most of their own seat in the canoe, instead of all deciding to squeeze in the same one.
CJ Miller
Ekofisk wrote:
CJ Miller wrote:

Why? Because Serge has already established itself in one format. It sucks for people who don't want to switch.


This doesn't make any sense to me. Care to qualify?


Because to continue to expand your system, you'd need to carry it over to another format? Start your Serge in 4U with bananas, finish it in 3U with 1/8"? I guess for most people there is STS, but since he charges like 4x what Serge did, this has never been an option for me.
AntManBee
CJ Miller wrote:
If reality was good enough for people, they'd be scientists.

Well I'm glad we've got that settled.
CursedFrogurt
CJ Miller wrote:
Some crazy shit


Ah nevermind
ignatius
CJ Miller wrote:
Ekofisk wrote:
CJ Miller wrote:

Why? Because Serge has already established itself in one format. It sucks for people who don't want to switch.


This doesn't make any sense to me. Care to qualify?


Because to continue to expand your system, you'd need to carry it over to another format? Start your Serge in 4U with bananas, finish it in 3U with 1/8"? I guess for most people there is STS, but since he charges like 4x what Serge did, this has never been an option for me.


so basically what is grinding your gears a bit is that someone is gonna make licensed serge designs and isn't making them in the serge format at a throwback price?

i can see how a serge user would be disappointed that there will be serge designs in euro and not in serge.... but the market has spoken. such as it is.
Ekofisk
CJ Miller wrote:
Ekofisk wrote:
CJ Miller wrote:

Why? Because Serge has already established itself in one format. It sucks for people who don't want to switch.


This doesn't make any sense to me. Care to qualify?


Because to continue to expand your system, you'd need to carry it over to another format? Start your Serge in 4U with bananas, finish it in 3U with 1/8"? I guess for most people there is STS, but since he charges like 4x what Serge did, this has never been an option for me.


Nope, still not making any sense.

For anyone already into Serge, what changes? People not already into Serge, however, might have a chance to get some.
dequalsrxt
Reality Checkpoint
Is choice wrong?
CJ Miller
Reality Checkpoint wrote:
Is choice wrong?


If it's based upon what you think is best, it's great. If it's based upon what you imagine "everybody" are or should be doing, it's tyrannical.

How about you? Do you think Euro is a superior choice because it works better? Or just because it's a popular trend? My point in asking this is not to say what format I think it should be, but just pointing out that in my discussions with most people, they are excited about Euro as a format with no apparent consideration of why. IE what makes it better is that everybody does it - not anything intrinsic to Euro itself.
CJ Miller
dequalsrxt wrote:
???


Safety in numbers?

johnnywoods
CJ Miller wrote:
Reality Checkpoint wrote:
Is choice wrong?

Do you think Euro is a superior choice because it works better? Or just because it's a popular trend? My point in asking this is not to say what format I think it should be, but just pointing out that in my discussions with most people, they are excited about Euro as a format with no apparent consideration of why. IE what makes it better is that everybody does it - not anything intrinsic to Euro itself.


But, the fact that everybody does it means a bigger marketplace. Which means way more modules than any other format for (generally) lower prices. That is a huge benefit for me, and quite intrinsic to the format.

Everything from video synthesizers to vintage analog filter clones can be had in Euro. No other format comes close.
dequalsrxt
Rustled jimmies serve no function in dreams or in modular synthesizers: that is all I'm saying with my choice of meme. Rest easy, comrades. The world is ours, if only in brief, tightly modulated flashes.
6.4 Billion
CJ Miller wrote:
If it's based upon what you think is best, it's great. If it's based upon what you imagine "everybody" are or should be doing, it's tyrannical.


Just out of curiosity, what format would you prefer for these new serge modules? And would you be prepared to take on the large risk for building a brand new format?
HexEnduction
Low-Gain wrote:
Think if I was Rex I'd be a little pissed that Serge is selling most of his designs to someone who would build them in Euro format.


I doubt he cares. People that buy the STS stuff will continue to buy the STS stuff. People that want euro stuff will continue to buy euro stuff. I don't think there are many fence sitters.
HexEnduction
6.4 Billion wrote:
CJ Miller wrote:
If it's based upon what you think is best, it's great. If it's based upon what you imagine "everybody" are or should be doing, it's tyrannical.


Just out of curiosity, what format would you prefer for these new serge modules? And would you be prepared to take on the large risk for building a brand new format?


Frac.
HexEnduction
jenamu6 wrote:
Sorry....I meant to say "The modules, that matter, to me"
TKB and NTO have been surpassed by other great designs in my opinion......

The WAD I never tried.

I really loved the filter, the waveshapers and the DUSG.......likely they will be made available to the masses.

My reaction was an attempt at humor/sarcasm and honest seriously, i just don't get it


Fair enough. Curious of what euro modules you think surpass the NTO and TKB though. Digital doesn't count in my book.
aethersprite
HexEnduction wrote:
I don't think there are many fence sitters.


I recently switched from Euro to Serge. If I had known Serge designs were coming to euro, I'd still have gone Serge/STS. Rockin' Banana!
polyroy
I don't see what the problem is really. Serge is getting money for his fabulous designs and people in Euro will be getting the chance to use them.

Consider with Serge format also, that it seems Rex doesn't do many custom panels and if you just wanted the Serge filter or your own configuration of modules or whatever, it's not really feasible to do. Introducing it to Euro makes sense for all parties.

I've always seen the Serge as a fantastic standalone system, but I think being able to have the option of it's individual functions is a good thing. If people want full Serge 4U panels, they'll buy them from Rex.

Plus, it means Bananalogue is back in the synth game. Be happy for a fellow wiggler.
CJ Miller
6.4 Billion wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what format would you prefer for these new serge modules? And would you be prepared to take on the large risk for building a brand new format?


My opinion is that the original choice of 4U was perfect. BUT it is better to make individual modules possible as well. So 4U with tapped rails = best of both worlds. I base this opinion on trying 3U, 4U, and 5U. Comparing circuit layout, panel layout, and choices of hardware. If you think about the issue from a manufacturing perspective rather than as a consumer, I think you'll find that Eurorack offers less choices, it imposes additional constraints at every turn. Sure, with effort things can be shoehorned to fit, but why? And what gets me is that 4U is not a brand new format, it is the original Serge format.

Where the risks are, depends on what ones goals are. There is no substantial risk in creating a new format, if you pull it off, you succeeded. But if your goal was getting people to adopt your format, then there is a risk... but you just traded being an artisan for the life of a merchant. There is no objective reason why it matters how many people buy a given product. This so-called economy of scale is just pure animalistic territorial impulse, which has been amplified by the technology of the industrial age. If your goal is to be the biggest monkey on the block, it doesn't matter if you use weapons or money, it's the same impulse. Establish your goals first, and force the institutions of society to grow up accordingly. It's the responsible thing to do, and it yields better tech too.
Entrainer
It's cool, I'm looking forward to it... I guess. Almost a day late, dollar short
though. The market HAS spoken. Maths, Toppobrillo SM/TWF/MF, Azimuth,
Banalogue mixer. Pick your VCO, ADDAC 701, Cwejman VCO6, Wiard
WO. Pressure Points, RCD, Plog/Spock, STG Divider/Comparator etc etc.

Interface isn't exactly the same but there is a point of diminishing returns
where 2X as much $ is getting a relatively small improvement.

Couple that with the lack of choice, being constrained into buying things
you don't want or need to get the one thing you do want, the longer wait
times... it's a tough sell. And STS prices are going up again.

I DO very much like having the same aesthetic design and every panel
leaving calibrated. I also like having $2k+ per row/panel left in my
pocket. Greedy indecisive bastard that I am, Euro is a better format for
me.

I'd love an "official" NTO, VQVCF, WM, SSG, DSUG, RES-EQ... even if they
are built to 1982 specifications and not the gradual improvements or
changes STS made. At least Serge would be seeing some revenue for
his classic designs. OTOH, I'm more than pleased with what exists now.
I doubt the little tiny change in timbre would make or break a record and
if nothing existed to compare to, no one would be the wiser. I mean,
we aren't talking about the differences between software/hardware...
this is analog "clone" vs. original. Maybe a .1% variation in complete
possible tonality.
theglyph
@CJ Miller, are you concerned that Ken will change the layout/size of his PCBs to accommodate Euro?
CursedFrogurt
CJ Miller wrote:
There is no objective reason why it matters how many people buy a given product.


That is quite possibly the most fucking retarded thing that you've said yet. I think that just about the biggest objective consideration a person could make when investing thousands of dollars into creating and manufacturing a line of modules is whether the goddamn things are going to sell or not.
goiks
i'm excited at the apparently renewed possibility of serge circuits in euro format. i heard this rumor over a year ago, so i'm not going to hold my breath, but a public announcement seems to be a positive indication.

OT:
@CJ Miller: if you or anyone else wants to make 4u modules and power to address the perceived euro format "less robust"ness, i would be happy to make 4u cases. reality appears to me that few have the gravitas to be able to attempt this, let alone do it successfully by even limited measure.
ignatius
CJ Miller wrote:
Reality Checkpoint wrote:
Is choice wrong?


If it's based upon what you think is best, it's great. If it's based upon what you imagine "everybody" are or should be doing, it's tyrannical.

How about you? Do you think Euro is a superior choice because it works better? Or just because it's a popular trend? My point in asking this is not to say what format I think it should be, but just pointing out that in my discussions with most people, they are excited about Euro as a format with no apparent consideration of why. IE what makes it better is that everybody does it - not anything intrinsic to Euro itself.


oh FFS what makes any one format better/worse than any other? oh.. i know.. it's PERSONAL FUCKING PREFERENCE.

that being said... obviously, as said ad nauseam, there are 50+ euro makers doing really awesome stuff. you can put together a system of your own needs/designs and aren't limited to one manufacturer.. many people like the size, portability, compatibility etc etc etc.. and yes.. the modules sound fucking awesome.
Orbless
CJ Miller wrote:
Reality Checkpoint wrote:
Is choice wrong?


If it's based upon what you think is best, it's great. If it's based upon what you imagine "everybody" are or should be doing, it's tyrannical.

How about you? Do you think Euro is a superior choice because it works better? Or just because it's a popular trend? My point in asking this is not to say what format I think it should be, but just pointing out that in my discussions with most people, they are excited about Euro as a format with no apparent consideration of why. IE what makes it better is that everybody does it - not anything intrinsic to Euro itself.


I have been in 5U land for a long time, but I have started to build up a Euro system because of the size.
I realized that I can get the same setup in a smaller space, which is better for me because I play out a lot and smaller equals lighter and more portable.
I can fit 12U of euro into one or two carryon sized cases. This gives me at least twice as many modules in the same space as I currently have with my 5U setup.
That would be the main reason for me to say that Euro format may be better than others for me personally.
polyroy
It's the functions and price over format mainly. I couldn't give a shit what format my Plan B system is, as long as it sounds how it does. The amount of people that have said in this thread and all around the forum, things like 'I'd love to go Serge/Buchla, but can't afford it, so will go Euro' proves this. The portability is important as well, but I've seen a lot of portable Serge and Buchla systems.

Euro being so widely supported in the community is why newbies will gravitate towards it as well. You have a point somewhere, CJ Miller, about people going to Euro because everyone else does. It's true in many ways, but your reasoning behind it seemed a bit strange. If someone is new to all of this, why not go for what everyone else is? More people to help you out, more people to share common ground (no synth pun intended) and more people to share your enjoyment with.
CursedFrogurt
polyroy wrote:

Euro being so widely supported in the community is why newbies will gravitate towards it as well. You have a point somewhere, CJ Miller, about people going to Euro because everyone else does. It's true in many ways, but your reasoning behind it seemed a bit strange. If someone is new to all of this, why not go for what everyone else is? More people to help you out, more people to share common ground (no synth pun intended) and more people to share your enjoyment with.


Not to mention more people to buy and sell used modules from, making it even cheaper to get into. There's no risk when you can buy a module used and flip it for the same price a week later if you don't like it.
CursedFrogurt
Actual question related to the OP . . . is the VC "Q" Filter as it stands in the STS lineup an original serge module, or does it have some Rex only features that won't be represented in the licensed euro line?
HexEnduction
http://www.cgs.synth.net/synth/serge/kit/vcfx.html

If its this one, the only difference looks like the missing gain knob.

If its the 1973 one, I don't think there was a Trig input.


CursedFrogurt wrote:
Actual question related to the OP . . . is the VC "Q" Filter as it stands in the STS lineup an original serge module, or does it have some Rex only features that won't be represented in the licensed euro line?
CJ Miller
CursedFrogurt wrote:
CJ Miller wrote:
There is no objective reason why it matters how many people buy a given product.


That is quite possibly the most fucking retarded thing that you've said yet. I think that just about the biggest objective consideration a person could make when investing thousands of dollars into creating and manufacturing a line of modules is whether the goddamn things are going to sell or not.


There is a difference. This is a reason, but it is not an objective reason. This is why I stated that it depends on what your goals are. This is subjective. If you put thousands of dollars into a project and want them back - then your goal is, at least partially, to make money. So it would be in keeping with your goals to compromise the goals of making a nice synth, and making money at it. But this ideal assumes a lot.

Q: Why should people buy my modules instead of yours?
A: Because I want them to.

Q: How many should I eventually sell?
A: As many as possible.

Q: Are we not men?
A: We are DEVO!

They are not fundamentally very intelligent answers. It is just more bickering over territory and resources. Personally I think that money does not really have any of the superstitious powers people claim for it, I might as well be worrying about a hoard of magical acorns. It makes no objective difference. It is a poor system of measurement. Better I think to measure gear objectively - What is it made of? How does it work? How much current does it use? What is the temperature coefficient? How much noise is there? This is where things get interesting because these things can be measured. We can set goals, and refine processes whereby to achieve them. Program some robots for the wishy washy business stuff so we can enjoy doing the real work of understanding the world and pushing the envelope of what is possible.
CJ Miller
VCFX is a version of the VCFQ, kind of like how the 1973 filter can be set to a low range for CV processing. All of the filters were designed by Serge. So far as I am aware, the only modules designed by Rex are BOOL and PDIV. Serge is proud of his VCF designs. IIRC Ken said that the SSG and later filters Serge did not want sold as PCBs, but only as completed modules. So here we are!

HexEnduction wrote:
http://www.cgs.synth.net/synth/serge/kit/vcfx.html

If its this one, the only difference looks like the missing gain knob.


CursedFrogurt wrote:
Actual question related to the OP . . . is the VC "Q" Filter as it stands in the STS lineup an original serge module, or does it have some Rex only features that won't be represented in the licensed euro line?
CursedFrogurt
CJ Miller wrote:

There is a difference. This is a reason, but it is not an objective reason. This is why I stated that it depends on what your goals are. This is subjective. If you put thousands of dollars into a project and want them back - then your goal is, at least partially, to make money. So it would be in keeping with your goals to compromise the goals of making a nice synth, and making money at it. But this ideal assumes a lot.

Q: Why should people buy my modules instead of yours?
A: Because I want them to.

Q: How many should I eventually sell?
A: As many as possible.

Q: Are we not men?
A: We are DEVO!

They are not fundamentally very intelligent answers. It is just more bickering over territory and resources. Personally I think that money does not really have any of the superstitious powers people claim for it, I might as well be worrying about a hoard of magical acorns. It makes no objective difference. It is a poor system of measurement. Better I think to measure gear objectively - What is it made of? How does it work? How much current does it use? What is the temperature coefficient? How much noise is there? This is where things get interesting because these things can be measured. We can set goals, and refine processes whereby to achieve them. Program some robots for the wishy washy business stuff so we can enjoy doing the real work of understanding the world and pushing the envelope of what is possible.


I accept your apology.
chinard
'official' serge in euroland?
long fucking overdue...

bring it on! SlayerBadger!
gwaidan
For many manufacturers on this forum, if not most, putting thousands of dollars into a project and wanting them back is done for two reasons

1) Making sure the project will be a success by exactly the criteria you mentioned (noise, distortion, accuracy, general fitness for purpose)

2) Ensuring they have the resources to keep doing other projects

Hardly anyone does this with a game plan of getting rich from modules, likewise most manufacturers wouldn't have the resources to sell thousands of a single design of module, and in this community doing A-B comparisons with a competitor's product will be seen as poor form and lose you customers.

Yes anyone can order a PC board to their own design and build it up. Debugging that design and making it fit for others to use without spending half your time answering frustrated people on this forum or E-M - that does take time and money.
chrisso
cbm wrote:
So what are people's top five Serge modules that they would like to see "ported" to Euro, anyway? Is there any sort of a consensus?


Resonant EQ
Wave Multiplier

That's about it for me.
(Recently sold my last Serge and bought into Euro again).
chrisso
The reason I bought back into Euro was the huge depth of choice, in both module design and manufacturers/designers.
More innovative, interesting modules in Euro than any other format at the moment IMO.

On the question of choice and affordability in Serge-land, I augmented my Serge system with a large number of Modcan A modules. You can also choose Fenix 1 or 2.
HexEnduction
CJ Miller wrote:
IIRC Ken said that the SSG and later filters Serge did not want sold as PCBs, but only as completed modules.


That's very cool, although the missing banana jacks would make some of the SSG programming difficult with euro cables. Stackables would be an absolute necessity with the SSG.
Mood Organ
HexEnduction wrote:
6.4 Billion wrote:
CJ Miller wrote:
If it's based upon what you think is best, it's great. If it's based upon what you imagine "everybody" are or should be doing, it's tyrannical.


Just out of curiosity, what format would you prefer for these new serge modules?


Frac.


Yep. with Bananas. THAT would actually make a fucking difference in my world. not holding my breath.
CursedFrogurt
chrisso wrote:
(Recently sold my last Serge and bought into Euro again).


Fucking conformist sheep. You disgust me.
ignatius
CJ Miller wrote:
CursedFrogurt wrote:
CJ Miller wrote:
There is no objective reason why it matters how many people buy a given product.


That is quite possibly the most fucking retarded thing that you've said yet. I think that just about the biggest objective consideration a person could make when investing thousands of dollars into creating and manufacturing a line of modules is whether the goddamn things are going to sell or not.


There is a difference. This is a reason, but it is not an objective reason. This is why I stated that it depends on what your goals are. This is subjective. If you put thousands of dollars into a project and want them back - then your goal is, at least partially, to make money. So it would be in keeping with your goals to compromise the goals of making a nice synth, and making money at it. But this ideal assumes a lot.

Q: Why should people buy my modules instead of yours?
A: Because I want them to.

Q: How many should I eventually sell?
A: As many as possible.

Q: Are we not men?
A: We are DEVO!

They are not fundamentally very intelligent answers. It is just more bickering over territory and resources. Personally I think that money does not really have any of the superstitious powers people claim for it, I might as well be worrying about a hoard of magical acorns. It makes no objective difference. It is a poor system of measurement. Better I think to measure gear objectively - What is it made of? How does it work? How much current does it use? What is the temperature coefficient? How much noise is there? This is where things get interesting because these things can be measured. We can set goals, and refine processes whereby to achieve them. Program some robots for the wishy washy business stuff so we can enjoy doing the real work of understanding the world and pushing the envelope of what is possible.


this was all making sense then i got to the end and you didn't mention unicorns so now i'm confused.

srsly though this is a nice synth




and so is this...

bwhittington
HexEnduction wrote:
the missing banana jacks would make some of the SSG programming difficult with euro cables. Stackables would be an absolute necessity with the SSG.


I think this is a gigantic point. Some modules--DUSG, SSG--just aren't the same without that convoluted, stacked patching. I've wanted slopes in my 5U system, but the only thing I can think of that comes close is a set of two or four with a hard-wired matrix mixer to cross mod. (I will have this, one day). A Euro equivalent would be very different. Not at all useless, as the MATHS/VCS enthusiasm clearly shows, but quite different.

As such, I see Euro Serge and STS Serge panels as two very different products. The promised proliferation of Serge's designs is a great thing for Euro and will no doubt be a great success. At the same time, the systems Rex sells are simply the classic format that has stood the test of time. People will always want them because they are awesome, and to many people interface is key with modular synths. I see goodness all around here.

Cheers,
Brian
ignatius
bwhittington wrote:


As such, I see Euro Serge and STS Serge panels as two very different products. The promised proliferation of Serge's designs is a great thing for Euro and will no doubt be a great success. At the same time, the systems Rex sells are simply the classic format that has stood the test of time. People will always want them because they are awesome, and to many people interface is key with modular synths. I see goodness all around here.


thumbs up
zerosum
Resonant Equalizer, Slopes, and wave processors please. Om
Do want
cbm
CJ Miller wrote:
There is a difference. This is a reason, but it is not an objective reason.

Are there really objective "facts" at play here? Your perspective defines what you see. At the end of the day in synth-land, sound and UI/workflow are paramount, IMO. These are almost completely subjective measures.



Quote:
If you put thousands of dollars into a project and want them back - then your goal is, at least partially, to make money. So it would be in keeping with your goals to compromise the goals of making a nice synth, and making money at it. But this ideal assumes a lot.

You assume that the goals of making a nice synth and making some money by selling it are incompatible. I don't think that that's true.


Quote:
Personally I think that money does not really have any of the superstitious powers people claim for it, I might as well be worrying about a hoard of magical acorns. It makes no objective difference. It is a poor system of measurement.

Funny you should mention that, as I happen to have a stock of New Old Stock magic acorns. What will you give me for them?


Quote:
Better I think to measure gear objectively - What is it made of? How does it work? How much current does it use? What is the temperature coefficient? How much noise is there? This is where things get interesting because these things can be measured. We can set goals, and refine processes whereby to achieve them. Program some robots for the wishy washy business stuff so we can enjoy doing the real work of understanding the world and pushing the envelope of what is possible.

Yes these things can be measured, but how important are they? Lots of thing can be measured, but they may not be important to the art of synthesis. I like Buchla synths because they have a higher albedo than Modcan A, for example. There's no consensus about what the important parameters are, and even whether it's good to optimize them in a traditional sense. For example certain generations of Moog oscillator were notorious for their drift. Now they are coveted for that reason. When is an engineering defect a benefit?
Dofkev
As the user of a euro system, I say let a serge be a serge. Don't we have enough in euro? There is too much desire for more more more. It actually reminds me of the same type of argument one makes for walmart: by bringing cheaper products to more people, society is progressing. I don't think I have to elaborate on the consequences of this logic. There is something very profound to be said about upholding tradition and something very sad about seeing it watered down. STS is upholding serge tradition quite respectably, even more so than buchla is upholding buchla I dare to say. It is like destroying a turn of the century building and replacing it with cookie cutter architecture because it is more "efficient".
I'm not saying that a euro serge would replace STS right away. I am just saying that my gut reaction is that something stinks about euro serge.
amnesia
bwhittington wrote:
I see goodness all around here.


agree :-)

Both win!
cbm
Dofkev wrote:
STS is upholding serge tradition quite respectably, even more so than buchla is upholding buchla I dare to say.

If by "upholding tradition" you mean "frozen in time", then I agree.

I would argue that, by definition Buchla is upholding Buchla tradition, because Buchla is still designing new things to add to that tradition.
andrewF
amnesia wrote:
bwhittington wrote:
I see goodness all around here.


agree :-)

Both win!


thumbs up
STS will still sell everything they build and customers will still line up for more.
plus the designs are available in Euro for others to enjoy and Serge gets some income for his designs.
You don't have to buy them if you don't like them and if there is some minor loss in functionality due to not using It's peanut butter jelly time! , it will be just that - minor.

I suspect in the long run it will send more people towards the Serge format once they get tired of squinting at those tiny euro panels razz hihi
transistor logic
cbm wrote:
Dofkev wrote:
STS is upholding serge tradition quite respectably, even more so than buchla is upholding buchla I dare to say.

If by "upholding tradition" you mean "frozen in time", then I agree.

I would argue that, by definition Buchla is upholding Buchla tradition, because Buchla is still designing new things to add to that tradition.


+11

i agree . buchla is upholding its tradition by being active in developpement and contributing to progress in music technologie .
CursedFrogurt
Dofkev wrote:
STS is upholding serge tradition quite respectably, even more so than buchla is upholding buchla I dare to say.


Aside from the fact that the Serge system was originally meant to be a relatively inexpensive alternative to the other available systems, and is now one of the most expensive options, and it used to be entirely customizable, and now users are boxed into pre-selected units, STS is holding up the tradition remarkably well.
bartlebooth
CursedFrogurt wrote:
Dofkev wrote:
STS is upholding serge tradition quite respectably, even more so than buchla is upholding buchla I dare to say.


Aside from the fact that the Serge system was originally meant to be a relatively inexpensive alternative to the other available systems, and is now one of the most expensive options, and it used to be entirely customizable, and now users are boxed into pre-selected units, STS is holding up the tradition remarkably well.


why is it that any thread with the words "serge" and euro" in the title so quickly devolves into a pissing match?
noobyscooby
Diversity and price is the only argument euro has going and am perfectly fine with that.

Despite the boatloads of things I hate about euro, I'm still actually thinking (one day when I have some money) that 6U of euro will finish off my modular system. I've already been back to modularplanner and filled out about 3U.

I'm good for Serge (3 panels) and Modcan A (4 cases) but there are some euro modules I really want and I have just enough space for a G6 or DIY racking of 6U.

So ironically, I'd be the last guy to buy Serge euro but have no problem with their being Serge euro. Rex won't care and will just call it cheaply made junk or something to that effect. I do wonder what will be produced though and if it will actually be much more than what's already available from CGS or Bananalogue. It might just be a re-release rebranding of what already is available. It's interesting that Serge will allow some designs to be re-released as PCBs but not others. Does it mean that some are harder to build than others or do they want what they think will be the most popular ones only available as finished modules.

At some point when I owned a large euro system I had tried all three Bananalogue modules and they were alright (I actually used the 3P mixer the most) but +1 for anything Serge needing to be a banana experience. It's made for that format.
de_raaf
i think if sts would offer single modules (instead of m or full panel) this wouldn' have happened maybe

now with euro, you get the change to build up module by module
why no 4u because rex is doing that.


i dreamed of serge sts in the beginning, but economically not possible, why euro, size, available from distributors and a lot of activity, creating your own unique modular, module by module, easy to start with if you have patience on a low budget, easier to bring a long for gigs (which is important for me) and a lot of pleasure
CursedFrogurt
bartlebooth wrote:
CursedFrogurt wrote:
Dofkev wrote:
STS is upholding serge tradition quite respectably, even more so than buchla is upholding buchla I dare to say.


Aside from the fact that the Serge system was originally meant to be a relatively inexpensive alternative to the other available systems, and is now one of the most expensive options, and it used to be entirely customizable, and now users are boxed into pre-selected units, STS is holding up the tradition remarkably well.


why is it that any thread with the words "serge" and euro" in the title so quickly devolves into a pissing match?


Because pissing on a cheap euro power supply will give your dick the same refreshing jolt as a grossly overpriced STS one hihi
transistor logic
about serge in euro format i cant understand why anyone would be against that . i can understand why someone would want this to happens in the format they are using to satisfy their needs , but why would someone want users of a specific format not to have acces to modules that integrates perfectly in their systems ??

i get that individual serge modules would be great in serge format to add on serge systems. but if thats not happening the euro market and manufacturers should not be blamed for that ... thats the great thing about euro , if one manufacturer dont want to make something three others will
akrylik
Why is the Wilson Analog Delay so hard to make?
sascha.victoria
I read an article recently about how the more something is copied the more value the original has.

For example: you can copy a piece of art but the experience of viewing it in real life can't be recreated or better yet, owning it and viewing it daily. Or how about Fender and Gibson making relic guitars which are quite expensive to look like vintage guitars. But if one were to actually play a vintage guitar you'd notice there is a difference. Weather or not that difference is equal to the price difference is up the buyer but the difference is there.

Which brings me to STS vs Euro Serge. There will be a difference. No banana jacks alone is an insanely huge one. This is possibly the biggest one. After that who knows what the sound, build quality, power, etc... differences will be. Serge without banana jacks to me would be completely missing the point.

Personally, I only see this helping STS sales.
HexEnduction
5...4...3...2...1

Happy New Year!!! Champagne Champagne Champagne

CursedFrogurt wrote:
bartlebooth wrote:
CursedFrogurt wrote:
Dofkev wrote:
STS is upholding serge tradition quite respectably, even more so than buchla is upholding buchla I dare to say.


Aside from the fact that the Serge system was originally meant to be a relatively inexpensive alternative to the other available systems, and is now one of the most expensive options, and it used to be entirely customizable, and now users are boxed into pre-selected units, STS is holding up the tradition remarkably well.


why is it that any thread with the words "serge" and euro" in the title so quickly devolves into a pissing match?


Because pissing on a cheap euro power supply will give your dick the same refreshing jolt as a grossly overpriced STS one hihi
thetwlo
akrylik wrote:
Why is the Wilson Analog Delay so hard to make?

cbm
bartlebooth wrote:
CursedFrogurt wrote:
Dofkev wrote:
STS is upholding serge tradition quite respectably, even more so than buchla is upholding buchla I dare to say.


Aside from the fact that the Serge system was originally meant to be a relatively inexpensive alternative to the other available systems, and is now one of the most expensive options, and it used to be entirely customizable, and now users are boxed into pre-selected units, STS is holding up the tradition remarkably well.


why is it that any thread with the words "serge" and euro" in the title so quickly devolves into a pissing match?

I really don't see this as a pissing match. Someone made a slightly inflammatory statement, and someone else countered it in a factual, if slightly snarky, manner. I see this more as a spirited discussion.
chrisso
noobyscooby wrote:
Diversity and price is the only argument euro has going and am perfectly fine with that.


Wow, you missed the most important aspect. They perform well. AKA, it's possible to use them effectively and make great sounds for your music.

To be clear I have zero problem with any system. Serge is good, Buchla is good, Modcan is good, Euro is good.
Choose what ever floats your boat.
Until recently I had a bit of almost everything.
Now I'm down to Buchla, Fenix and Euro.
chrisso
sascha.victoria wrote:

Personally, I only see this helping STS sales.


I would not be surprised if you are right. thumbs up
bwhittington
chrisso wrote:
sascha.victoria wrote:

Personally, I only see this helping STS sales.


I would not be surprised if you are right. thumbs up


I agree, unless there are quality issues with the new product, which could possibly hurt some users' impression of the brand. That is the main concern I would have if I were Rex--control over something that had been exclusively his is somewhat out of his hands now. The other thing that will annoy him is a zillion customers calling him up trying to buy Euro format modules. The distinction between two "Serge" systems being sold by two different builders will be lost on many first time inquirers.

Cheers,
Brian
chrisso
I've spoken here before about the API 500 Series.
It was a pretty niche product until 3rd party makers started to jump on board.
It's probably one of the biggest success stories in Pro Audio now.

The same with Euro, which was more or less Doepfer, Analogue Systems and Analogue Solutions to start with.

If there were an affordable entry into Serge (via Euro), a decent proportion of people would likely 'trade up' to the STS system.
Rod Serling Fan Club
It will be interesting to see what happens and how much brand-name appeal matters. A lot of things people are asking for here are more or less available in euro already.

Someone mentioned you need stackables for some of the obvious SSG stuff. Well the sports modulator is pretty much an SSG with an added switch for some of the obvious patching stackables would have been needed for.

There are already various variations on wavefolding and shaping. Same guy, bananalogue, already released the wavefolders and I thought the toppo tripple is supposed to be similar.

Banalogue did a slope generator. The same basic design is now available through elby, there are also the make noise and malekko variations...
MechaSeb
The best things, imho, would be that Banalogue offer kits &/or pre-build for all the pre-STS modules. Doing that, everyone could choose what kind of format, "quality" they want. (Euro/Frac, MU, Buchla, original Serge 4u or whatever else).

And for people who don't want to build their own and have enough budget (or want to pay more) there is still the STS option.

But generally i agree that the Serge have been designed to be used with bananas or at least stack compatible cables. And ergonomically speaking the visual aspect have to be really well-groomed too. Both of those aspects are really important... again imho
Nils
I wonder if Mr Tcherepnin will offer some NEW designs through Bananalogue? Dead Banana
thetwlo
amnesia wrote:
did you know about this?
http://sergesynthesizers.com/


well, that web site already looks better than the STS one. (hides)
I gather/guess Serge isn't very happy with the direction Rex has taken things. No idea if this is his concern, but these were designed tobe the cheapest modules with the most functionality. I'm not sure STS/Rex embraces that, or to be fair, could make a living off that concept.
Nils
thetwlo wrote:
I gather/guess Serge isn't very happy with the direction Rex has taken things. No idea if this is his concern, but these were designed to be the cheapest modules with the most functionality.


I was very far from the modular scene in the 70s and early 80s, and I have no idea about the Buchla prices around that time, but from what I've read it seems Mr Tcherepnin was as concerned with quality as Mr Probe is these days.

Serge might well have been cheaper than Buchla, but it was still quite expensive?
An NTO was $275 in 1982.

Following the prices back from the 70s, through the STS era and up to now, I can't find a big jump in prices. They seem to follow a steady, fairly linear increase?
sersch
Owning both small Euro system (Cwejman S1 MkII plus a 3U euro rack with mostly Cwejman modules) and a 3 panel Serge, the thing I miss most on my Euro system is Banana jacks.

I know and use the stackables on my Euro, but they are not giving me the same impression of robustness and secure contact than a banana connection. On my Serge, I can literally dig thru the weeds, pushing the cables out of the way. On my Eurorack I always feel like "careful with them cables, there is only 1 square millimeter of contact space on one side, so don't push them sideways too much".

Aesthetically, I do love the Serge look way better than any other format (except Buchla), for its look and the fact that all modules are behind one panel. And yes, I know that this contradicts what a modular system might be all about in a lot of people's mind, but I was and am still willing to pay the price for it, as the aesthetics are a huge part of the…well…"inspiration" that an instrument gives me.

Consequently, I'd pay money for a professional service converting Euro modules to Serge format…as if you had needed any other proof for me officially being a total nutcase.
CJ Miller
akrylik wrote:
Why is the Wilson Analog Delay so hard to make?


What thetwlo said. Its sound strongly depends upon those Reticon BBD chips. Not only are the really scarce, but awfully unreliable. Even back in the day, it was not unusual to get bad batches of them. And now decades later, the bunk ones are basically all that is left. Probably a problem with whatever fab process they used, and why they didn't make more. I read an account where Thomas Henry scored a deal of... just found it:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-22100-0.html

The only reasonable assurance of working Reticon BBDs is to take them from vintage effects units, which is not exactly cost-effective. So, other options include re-designing the (fairly complex) circuit around different BBDs and hope to capture the flavor of the original. But again, there are no assurances of large-scale BBD availability anyway. So it is a bit of a project.
noobyscooby
chrisso wrote:
noobyscooby wrote:
Diversity and price is the only argument euro has going and am perfectly fine with that.


Wow, you missed the most important aspect. They perform well.


I didn't miss shit. Not all euro performs well. I owned 36U of euro at one point and was constantly annoyed with the inconsistent quality of build and feel, ability to interface modules properly (which is the whole fucking point) and lots of modules getting rushed to market without all of their features working properly or at all. Shitty inconsistent jacks, shitty power supplies and distribution and shitty patch cables. Half the time having to compromise the layout of the modules because one or two faceplates in a row were cut too wide. Shitty shit. It's the wild west of modulars. It's like VHS to beta. And it's not that cheap compared to other formats either.

That said, given its variety and ability to build cheaply over time, it will eventually have a place in my rack again like i said in the first place. This time I know better which modules I want and which brands to avoid. I'd get it all megaohm'd to banana but am too cheap.
andrewF
noobyscooby wrote:
Shitty shit. It's the wild west of modulars..


applause hihi
chrisso
I've had my system for 6 months and never had any of those issues.
jenamu6
I must be doing something wrong with my shit euro (that I use every shitty night)....I never encountered these problems????
Reality Checkpoint
CJ Miller wrote:
Reality Checkpoint wrote:
Is choice wrong?


If it's based upon what you think is best, it's great. If it's based upon what you imagine "everybody" are or should be doing, it's tyrannical.

How about you? Do you think Euro is a superior choice because it works better? Or just because it's a popular trend? My point in asking this is not to say what format I think it should be, but just pointing out that in my discussions with most people, they are excited about Euro as a format with no apparent consideration of why. IE what makes it better is that everybody does it - not anything intrinsic to Euro itself.


Having had 2 different Euro systems, the first being a predominately 12U Analogue Systems system when I first started out and then a 9U mongrel system, I then moved to Serge. I was extremely happy to have made the shift to Serge, but in no way thought it superior to Euro in terms of build quality or that Euro worked better or vice versa. My transition to Serge was mainly due to my own limitations, and the desire to work in a more compact form and understand in depth what I was working with.

Having started to understand synthesis with a Serge system (I am a slow learner!), I realised that to expand to where I would have eventually wanted to be would have way over-extended my budget, and would not necessarily have given me complete satisfaction. To have been able to add to the Serge with further individual modules would not only have helped my understanding, but also my budget. It would not matter a jot to me whether or not the modules were made by STS, Bananalogue or John Doe. The music is what mattered to me, and how I could best produce it given the limits of my understanding and budget.

I have, since selling the Serge, spent way more than my modular budget on field recording equipment, and I have finally found the area with which I am happy after years of module gas. When I see demos of things such as the Klangzeit the yearning still comes back, but I am able to resist it, as I have been there, done that and am happy in my chosen path of collecting many found sounds and the manipulation thereof.
noobyscooby
So nobody here has any plan b, doepfer, flame, mfb, didnt have early envelators or e350s and patch everything in with magic and not crappy, floppy doepfer cables. With perfect width modules every time. But feel free to keep lying to yourselves to be defenders of euro. I must have been dreaming about the 36U of euro for the last two years and everyone whining about bad builds in the forums. Euro users are funny, its ok for them to whine about stuff but not someone out of the family. You guys are either the luckiest guys in the world, have small systems, or are just lying to try and make a point. The format wars been won, calm down. With price point and module selection, euro has become the volksmodular.
Ekofisk
noobyscooby wrote:
Serge and Modcan A are just better product. They just are.


Maybe they are. Not really the point here, though.

Anyone thinking the 4U Serge is superior is free (well, more or less, after what I hear) to buy them. Or indeed to buy Modcan A. All good.

But if someone licenses Serge-designs, and wants to put them out in euro, with the designer's blessing, even if only to make a few more bucks as the market is bigger(not saying that's the case, but it wouldn't really matter), How can this be anything other than win-win? If so, for whom?
CursedFrogurt
NOW this is a proper pissing contest w00t

There's valid points on both sides, and how one feels about formats depends largely upon ones own standards and hangups. Having faceplates that didn't always quite match in width/height/thickness up didn't bother me, but I could see it wigging somebody else out. Some people will get dodgy jacks, some won't. There's a TON of valid concerns about any format, but in the end it's just cool that these circuits will be available to more people.

To be honest, I probably wouldn't consider an all serge euro setup to be a "serge synthesizer." But it would be a fucking awesome synthesizer comprised of serge circuits, and I'll bet that it's price point will be FAR below STS.
richard
CursedFrogurt wrote:


To be honest, I probably wouldn't consider an all serge euro setup to be a "serge synthesizer." But it would be a fucking awesome synthesizer comprised of serge circuits, and I'll bet that it's price point will be FAR below STS.


this
noobyscooby
Ekofisk wrote:
noobyscooby wrote:
Serge and Modcan A are just better product. They just are.


Wow. Ekofisk caught my bit of douchebaggery fast before I edited it.

Anyways, I have no problem with any design coming out in euro as I've previously said. And though I'm not a big fan of the format, 6U will be making it back to my rack eventually because of variety and price.

We're all winners, everything is the greatest, nothing is better than anything else! Yay!
Rod Serling Fan Club
noobyscooby wrote:
Ekofisk wrote:
noobyscooby wrote:
Serge and Modcan A are just better product. They just are.


We're all winners, everything is the greatest, nothing is better than anything else! Yay!


If you are convinced of this why do you care what others think?
wavecircle
The reasons for going to Euro are quite simple:

Tony Rolando
Gur Milstein
Josh Holley
Grant Richter
Scott Jaeger
Mike Brown
Danjel van Tijn
Dieter Doepfer
Bob Williams
And soon Serge Tcherepnin

I'd far rather have several designers working on a product than one. I've never had power problems with euro. I had more issues with the serge I had than I ever did with Euro. I patched a banana cable once and the friggin jack collapsed into the case. The build quality argument is generally bollocks in my opinion.
chinard
thetwlo wrote:
akrylik wrote:
Why is the Wilson Analog Delay so hard to make?




hmmm..

isnt reticon the name of that amnesia drug from torchwood? hmmm.....
noobyscooby
Rod Serling Fan Club wrote:
noobyscooby wrote:
Ekofisk wrote:
noobyscooby wrote:
Serge and Modcan A are just better product. They just are.


We're all winners, everything is the greatest, nothing is better than anything else! Yay!


If you are convinced of this why do you care what others think?


I don't care about what others think of my choice/non choice of anything. And I don't care what they fucking like. Everyone has their own reasons to like/not like use/not use whatever they want.

What I care about is being piled on every time I express my honest, through personal use, opinion of eurorack. People just can't leave it there. Every thread I mention any shortcomings, a bunch of people have to storm in on me like a goddamn army. Every time. If I liked euro better and thought it was better, I'd obviously still have all euro as it has the most choice and it would have saved me the hassle of mailing out a billion little boxes. The format clearly drove me nuts yet I know I will go back for a 6U here in time.

I do find it amazing that no one else has run into ANY of the same problems as I have stated above in this thread. No one piling on, can concede to any of my points about the format. Euro is good, euro is great, everything is equal. Fine then. My initial post was quite civil I thought given the topic and would slide through but nope not civil enough for the anti-euro hate police.

I guess I'm also a little bit pissy at developers chasing the money by focusing on eurorack and more annoyingly, leaving behind previous formats. I TOTALLY understand it but it feeds my rage. It's not as good of a format as the others I use, in my opinion.
richard
Quote:
What I care about is being piled on every time I express my honest, through personal use, opinion of eurorack. People just can't leave it there. Every thread I mention any shortcomings, a bunch of people have to storm in on me like a goddamn army. Every time. If I liked euro better and thought it was better, I'd obviously still have all euro as it has the most choice and it would have saved me the hassle of mailing out a billion little boxes. The format clearly drove me nuts yet I know I will go back for a 6U here in time.


I agree. But rational debate about formats is sadly not possible here. I think euro a pretty lame format but I love my 6U of euro modules - some people just don't seem to get that being honest about the format's shortcomings doesn't mean you are dissing it or that you are saying they have small dicks.
CJ Miller
chinard wrote:
isnt reticon the name of that amnesia drug from torchwood? hmmm.....


They do seem similar. After you buy what you thought were delay chips, they mysteriously erase themselves. Maybe if we call them "HARKINESS", they will regenerate instead.
rico loverde
man, this thread seems straight outta analogue heaven. what a bunch of stupid bullshit is being spouted here. fucking lame. d'oh!
miditerranean
Well, I for one am excited to see some official Serge designs in euro.
J3RK
The route I've gone for Euro is to power my modules from a big +/-15V linear supply, build them myself, and get panels from Clarke. All problems solved. razz

Not for everyone though obviously.

Seriously though, Serge designs in other formats is a good thing. Serge designs are already avialable in Serge format, so I don't see the issue. It's not like having them in Euro is going to make them disappear off the face of the earth in Serge format. If nothing else Rex is tenacious. Don't think he'd give up any time soon, so where's the problem again?
chrisso
noobyscooby wrote:
But feel free to keep lying to yourselves to be defenders of euro.


Uuugh, your very aggressive, dismissive tone is not necessary.
Say what you believe and admit it's a personal opinion. Just don't TELL people who have a different opinion they are liars.
I just sold my last Serge and Modcan to buy Euro.
I have my reasons, and I'm happy with them.
You have different thoughts, that's fine, but they don't stomp all over mine.

Just to repeat mine.
There is no 'format war'. It's all good. Use whatever you want, and so will I.
chrisso
noobyscooby wrote:

What I care about is being piled on every time I express my honest, through personal use, opinion of eurorack.


I have no problem with your choices, just don't announce I'm lying to myself. d'oh!


Quote:

I guess I'm also a little bit pissy at developers chasing the money by focusing on eurorack and more annoyingly, leaving behind previous formats. I TOTALLY understand it but it feeds my rage.


Don't have rage because some people want to keep their business going, and offering Euro modules helps them do that.
Or maybe we should just tell makers they can ONLY sell one or two modules a month in their niche format.
Rod Serling Fan Club
noobyscooby wrote:


What I care about is being piled on every time I express my honest, through personal use, opinion of eurorack. People just can't leave it there. Every thread I mention any shortcomings, a bunch of people have to storm in on me like a goddamn army. Every time. If I liked euro better and thought it was better, I'd obviously still have all euro as it has the most choice and it would have saved me the hassle of mailing out a billion little boxes. The format clearly drove me nuts yet I know I will go back for a 6U here in time.



I believe you had a really bad euro experience, perhaps partially due to the time of your entrance into euro and your choice of modules. However, I don’t think that your experience is indicative of everyone else’s or in any way a universal truth about euro. I’ve had both euro and STS, now I’m just DIY. Both had pros and cons but I honestly don’t believe that STS is a better system than euro. I am willing to accept some systems may be better for some people.

I think you might be pleasantly surprised when you dip back into euro. Things have probably matured a bit from the time of plan B. I would avoid being an early adopter of new modules unless you want to be a guinea pig.
legionhwp
Well that is quite the non objective viewpoint isn't it? hihi

No seriously, I hear you and can appreciate what you're saying. Part of the problem is folks are debating EURO in a Serge forum. I haven't looked but wouldn't it make just a s much sense to have this thread in the Euro forum as well?

I personally prefer ModcanA as my primary format these days. frac after that, Euro a distant 3 or 4. (i'm not counting Buchla or fenix in here but they are also above Euro IMO) I don't mind the size and such so much as I HATE, I mean HATE those fucking plastic lined jacks. I went to frac specifically to get away from them. I HATE those f*ckers. (Am I being clear here?)

I still have a 20-30 module euro system and it sounds good and does great things. The entire thing cost me less than two Buchla modules but I used the Fenix bananas and then the Modcan A and my whole brain changed.

I feel your pain for cool things coming out in Euro but we do have cool folks like Megaohm who will take a module and translate it into MOTM, Dotcom, or ModcanA for you so all is not lost. I also got pissy for a bit that Modcan turned their back on the A format - THAT HE INVENTED fer crissakes!! - by releasing modules first in B format or (in some cases not at all in A) but I'm not paying his bills so I realized I can't judge. I make DIY modcanA modules for myself and a few faithful (and even some Buchla DIY) but the reality is Euro sells better and if you're in *business* you need to pay attention to that.

Euro isn't perfect but it has it's good points (even not considering $$) IMO. And the world of modulars is wide enough to get whatever you want, if not mass produced, then boutique or DIY one offs. That's not a bad thing.

[quote="noobyscooby"]
Rod Serling Fan Club wrote:

I guess I'm also a little bit pissy at developers chasing the money by focusing on eurorack and more annoyingly, leaving behind previous formats. I TOTALLY understand it but it feeds my rage. It's not as good of a format as the others I use, in my opinion.
noobyscooby
chrisso wrote:

I have no problem with your choices, just don't announce I'm lying to myself. d'oh!


Fine. But don't tell me that I'm "missing" something in my original comment. And that they "perform well". I had plenty of modules that performed OK but not necessarily "well" with other modules and as well as my other formats. That's what set me off.

I had 36U of eurorack at my peak, I know exactly what I'm missing and not missing about the format and what I see value in as far as the format goes.
amnesia
isnt reticon the name of that amnesia drug from torchwood? hmmm.....[/quote]

I can't remember....
ringstone
amnesia wrote:
isnt reticon the name of that amnesia drug from torchwood? hmmm.....

I can remember....


Well, Retcon. But close enough, someone will be round your house in a minute to sort that out...

Cheers
Blair
ignatius
so, isn't this supposed to be a good news thread?
amnesia
ignatius wrote:
so, isn't this supposed to be a good news thread?


I though it was suppose to be...
confusional
This thread is awesome because nearly everyone posting is on my ignore list. I imagine they must feel very strongly about licensed Serge designs in Euro format, and they can't wait to tell people on the Internet just how they feel. Oh my god, this news is so polarizing and controversial! applause

Meanwhile, as a precautionary measure, I've asked Rex to raise his prices.
CJ Miller
ignoramus wrote:
This thread is awesome because nearly everyone posting is on my ignore list. I imagine they must feel very strongly about licensed Serge designs in Euro format, and they can't wait to tell people on the Internet just how they feel. Oh my god, this news is so polarizing and controversial! applause

Meanwhile, as a precautionary measure, I've asked Rex to raise his prices.


There were some apes posted a few pages ago, if rational discussion is too stressful for you. Don't let awkward discussion scare your imaginary friends away. Maybe meditating on these simple creatures will help to inspire more of your witch-doctor hijinx. "or something"
Entrainer
noobyscooby wrote:
Not all euro performs well.
inconsistent quality of build and feel
ability to interface modules properly
Shitty inconsistent jacks
shitty power supplies and distribution
shitty patch cables.
one or two faceplates in a row were cut too wide.


chrisso wrote:
I've had my system for 6 months and never had any of those issues.


jenamu6 wrote:
I must be doing something wrong with my shit euro (that I use every shitty night)....I never encountered these problems????


I've experienced all those issues within Euro. It's true that not all of it
performs well and not all of it performs well together. The largest issue
I have is the inconsistent voltage specifications between manufacturers
in the same format.

My panels and PCBs have been cut to wide and that sucks and takes hours
of time if you aren't using sliding nuts.

I almost threw in the towel after experiencing Serge, had a massive
sell-off, thinking of going Serge, Wiard, or Buchla. I bought Hordijk...

then I bought a Goike cabinet for Euro with a 8MA power supply with
a ton of headroom and shared grounding and all stackables and Mogami
for audio. Finally, I grouped/collected all modules by the same designers
into mini-systems per row. Cwejman, Harvestman, Malekko/Wiard...
that's the majority of my Euro with a few gems from
4ms, Modcan, Cylonix, Intellijel, Toppobrillo. If time/money permit,
I'd love to have an entire MakeNoise system in another Goike cab,
maybe next year.

Now I'm very pleased with sound and interface, but it was a hurdle
getting there.
numan7
noobyscooby wrote:
So nobody here has any plan b, doepfer, flame, mfb, didnt have early envelators or e350s and patch everything in with magic and not crappy, floppy doepfer cables. With perfect width modules every time. But feel free to keep lying to yourselves to be defenders of euro. I must have been dreaming about the 36U of euro for the last two years and everyone whining about bad builds in the forums. Euro users are funny, its ok for them to whine about stuff but not someone out of the family. You guys are either the luckiest guys in the world, have small systems, or are just lying to try and make a point. The format wars been won, calm down. With price point and module selection, euro has become the volksmodular.


zombie well that certainly was a strange paragraph, mister nooby !

wtf are "floppy cables", btw? confused

cheers
oljud
I had one row of euro for a month or so and experienced:

Shocks from switches and cables with one end in (painful)
Noisy jacks while plugging in/out. bad contacts I guess. also while digging behind cables as mentioned above
Some noise (not the good kind)
Severe anxiety while connecting everything the first time (terrible terrible memories. all went well though)
Lack of cv attenuation (normalization isn't very clever when it's just a cheap workaround)
Knobs not doing having an effect throughout their range
(Frustration with non-stackability ;-))

The inconsistensies in panel design and knobs weren't very annoying. I had loads of fun, perticularly the Cyclebox which is just brillant. Miss it.
I do prefer having all BugBrand! though. <--- Nearly flawless experience.

Modules: A-199, A-124, Pittsburgh outs, Maths, Cyclebox 2, Sport modulator. Power from uZeus and mounted in happy endings and z-rails.

Still, this is obviously a good thing. Let's hope they're really well made with the same amount of cv atten+inversion etc. And bananafiable at least. And that it leads to lower prices and perhaps even a website from STS.
numan7
cbm wrote:
So what are people's top five Serge modules that they would like to see "ported" to Euro, anyway? Is there any sort of a consensus?


hmmm..... not sure, but...

* vqvcf
* vsvcf
* vbvcf
* wavemults
* ssg or dusg

would definitely make for a fine start!

cheers
noobyscooby
oljud wrote:
And that it leads to lower prices and perhaps even a website from STS.


I think there's a better chance of a Ferrari being on my driveway when I get home tonight than either of these things happening ever..hihi

A website I think would even leave me speechless for days although didn't Rex buy Egres recently? Between it, this forum, the Yahoo one, the Quadslope one... the word seems to get out well enough. Is one even needed?

Lower prices? I repeat hihi
noobyscooby
numan7 wrote:

wtf are "floppy cables", btw? confused



Do a 2 hour session with Pomonas, do a 2 hour session with Doepfer/Ad Infinitums. Proceed to throw 1/8" cables across the room.

I hate them. And floppy seems to be the best way for me to describe them. I especially can't stand the Doepfer ones.
noobyscooby
cbm wrote:
So what are people's top five Serge modules that they would like to see "ported" to Euro, anyway? Is there any sort of a consensus?


Other than the three already available I think the top five sellers (in no particular order) I think would be.

NTO
VQVCF (then maybe all the filters, why not? people love filters do the old designs even)
Divide by N/Comp
Waveshapers
Wave Mults

But then these would probably be welcomed too although the concepts have been mostly covered/bettered in euro...

Audio/CV Matrix Mixers
Extended ADSR
SSG
WAD (would cost scare people off though?)
Active Processor
Scaling Buffers

A straight up TKB would be sick too. But again, would people pay the cost?
DedMousie
noobyscooby wrote:
A website I think would even leave me speechless for days although didn't Rex buy Egres recently?


"Buy" isn't exactly the term I'd use, but yes, Rex owns serge-fans.com now. He hasn't asked for many(any?) updates yet, but if he does, I'll be the one doing them. Email from him just a few days ago suggest some changes shall be coming in the near future...
ignatius
DedMousie wrote:
noobyscooby wrote:
A website I think would even leave me speechless for days although didn't Rex buy Egres recently?


"Buy" isn't exactly the term I'd use, but yes, Rex owns serge-fans.com now. He hasn't asked for many(any?) updates yet, but if he does, I'll be the one doing them. Email from him just a few days ago suggest some changes shall be coming in the near future...


isn't Rex using email kind of a change? razz
Entrainer
ignatius wrote:

isn't Rex using email kind of a change? razz


I corresponded with him via email several times over the last
2 years. Mostly short updates, questions. But the initial rite of
passage is the telephone "qualifying/pitch". Qualifying
meaning he really gets to the core of what you want to do and
makes recommendations. And gets a feel for your experience
with modulars and west-coast designs in general.

I like talking to the dude on the phone, he's a character.

Almost makes me want to send a little silver parachute.
akrylik
Does Rex do anything else on the side, or is Serge his full-time business?
hank
I for one welcome our new euroserge overlords.
construct09
Good for you Mr. Tcherepnin w00t
DedMousie
akrylik wrote:
Does Rex do anything else on the side, or is Serge his full-time business?


Well, here's Rex and Grant Ricther . Not sure who's playing sporano sax...

mckenic
Wow! This could be a REALLY great year for me!

I dont fly - my thing, my own reasons - I just dont. Getting Serge or Buchla from the US would cost me thousands on import duties (if I could even afford the basic systems)...

So there was some news that Buchla may be getting European distribution and now perhaps the possibility of Escape from Noise, Post Modular and Schneiders carrying Serge designs!

Finally peasants like me might be able to try out these things - Woo Hoo!
oljud
noobyscooby wrote:
oljud wrote:
And that it leads to lower prices and perhaps even a website from STS.


I think there's a better chance of a Ferrari being on my driveway when I get home tonight than either of these things happening ever..hihi

A website I think would even leave me speechless for days although didn't Rex buy Egres recently? Between it, this forum, the Yahoo one, the Quadslope one... the word seems to get out well enough. Is one even needed?

Lower prices? I repeat hihi


Maybe... If the euro ones will be bananafiable and euro-priced I don't see many people buying with the STS prices and dealing with Rex instead of EFN, for example. A website would be nice. Calling to the US isn't free. Plus I hate phones.

——— Ã¢â‚¬â€Ã¢â‚¬â€Ã¢â‚¬â€Ã¢â‚¬â Ã¢â‚¬â€

NTO
DUSG
SSG
Filters
Freq shifter if affordable
richard
are we going to talk about Rex's business model now? I do hope not.

I suspect a nuclear fucking war or worldwide zombie attack wouldn't have much impact on Rex, let alone this. I also think it has as much chance of encouraging desire for 4U serge than diminish it

Serge is not just modules it is partly a way of thinking and a specific interface. That way of thinking is possible in euro but it is a bit harder - I think its hard to fully embrace it without the interface. But if hundreds of people get a few Serge euro modules and get a feel of it, some will no doubt develop an irresistible desire to go all the way.

I won't pretend I think all formats are equal but Serge is great in all its manifestations, this development is simply good for everyone
xart
DedMousie wrote:

Well, here's Rex and Grant Ricther . Not sure who's playing sporano sax...



https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=2497


thumbs up
abstraktor
It seems to me, after reading through this thread, that some Serge owners are pissed off because their beloved modules will become available in Eurorack (and licensed by the Great Master too- what a betrayal of the faithful!), thus making their beloved and very expensive systems available to the great unwashed at a much lower price.
Elitism, n'est-ce-pas?.
Corbeau
abstraktor wrote:
It seems to me, after reading through this thread, that some Serge owners are pissed off because their beloved modules will become available in Eurorack (and licensed by the Great Master too- what a betrayal of the faithful!), thus making their beloved and very expensive systems available to the great unwashed at a much lower price.
Elitism, n'est-ce-pas?.


Getting angry for that reason is silly, yes. I can however understand if they're upset because this might potentially lead to new R&D in the Euro format as opposed to the traditional 4U format. In that case, if I had been a long-time Serge user, I might feel a little "neglected."

It's still too soon to make speculations like that though, I think, let alone to get up in arms about it.
richard
new R&D, serge? lol

not much happened in the last 30 years really
Nils
abstraktor wrote:
It seems to me, after reading through this thread, that some Serge owners are pissed off because their beloved modules will become available in Eurorack (and licensed by the Great Master too- what a betrayal of the faithful!), thus making their beloved and very expensive systems available to the great unwashed at a much lower price.
Elitism, n'est-ce-pas?.


Come on... I think the one person in this thread complaining about Serge becoming available in Euro is not a Serge owner, and his reason for complaining is his resentment of the Euro format, not Serge becoming available in other formats.

Personally I'm excited to see Serge in other formats, and I understand why Euro has been chosen, though it's not the format I personally would choose.
Nils
richard wrote:
new R&D, serge? lol

not much happened in the last 30 years really


Not much R&D at STS either, but this seems to be the year thumbs up
Entrainer
Nils wrote:


Not much R&D at STS either, but this seems to be the year thumbs up


did I miss something? I only saw the Animate which is pretty much just
a repackaging with a small change to the NTO.
Nils
The last of the M-odule Serge series is coming next month, after that he's apparently launching something completely new. No idea what it is though.
Pfurmel
^Euro-format modules lol
felixer
RealDudes wrote:
can we convince Gur to make more stackables now?

it should be possible to design a stackable with both banana and minijack: everybody happy w00t
AntManBee
I've only used bananas once but can see that they're part of the appeal of a Serge panel, however I really didn't like Stackcables & don't think the banana concept transfers at all well to 1/4" jacks. If there are to be individual Serge euro modules then what's wrong with using multiples? Anyway it seems peverse to suggest making them with bananas when the whole of euro uses 1/4" jacks.

Really, if I hadn't invested so much money in euro and could readily purchase Serge in the UK without the ridiculous import duties, then I'd probably switch to Serge - my only hesitation being that it's a closed system. Euro Serge is therefore a good compromise but I can't see it dissuading me from changing to STS Serge in the long-run.
rico loverde
AntManBee wrote:
I've only used bananas once but can see that they're part of the appeal of a Serge panel, however I really didn't like Stackcables & don't think the banana concept transfers at all well to 1/4" jacks. If there are to be individual Serge euro modules then what's wrong with using multiples? Anyway it seems peverse to suggest making them with bananas when the whole of euro uses 1/4" jacks.

Really, if I hadn't invested so much money in euro and could readily purchase Serge in the UK without the ridiculous import duties, then I'd probably switch to Serge - my only hesitation being that it's a closed system. Euro Serge is therefore a good compromise but I can't see it dissuading me from changing to STS Serge in the long-run.
i think you mean 1/8" jacks
ersatzplanet
felixer wrote:
RealDudes wrote:
can we convince Gur to make more stackables now?

it should be possible to design a stackable with both banana and minijack: everybody happy w00t


one could make an adaptor with a 1/8" plug and a female banana on the other end - and make it a short cable so the stress is not on the jack. You could stack bananas like crazy to it. Not much different from using passive multiples at that point though.
The problem is of course that the other Eurorack modules you would be connecting to don't have buffered inputs and outputs. I'm assuming the Serge does and that is why you can stack without worry of droop on a serge - or can you?

Also - just to start another possible "Euro sucks because of this" branch from this thread - what is the supply on a Serge, is it +/-12v or +/-15v? I am wondering how much convert ion the designs will go through if they are originally for a +/-15v PS.
AntManBee
rico loverde wrote:
AntManBee wrote:
I've only used bananas once but can see that they're part of the appeal of a Serge panel, however I really didn't like Stackcables & don't think the banana concept transfers at all well to 1/4" jacks. If there are to be individual Serge euro modules then what's wrong with using multiples? Anyway it seems peverse to suggest making them with bananas when the whole of euro uses 1/4" jacks.

Really, if I hadn't invested so much money in euro and could readily purchase Serge in the UK without the ridiculous import duties, then I'd probably switch to Serge - my only hesitation being that it's a closed system. Euro Serge is therefore a good compromise but I can't see it dissuading me from changing to STS Serge in the long-run.
i think you mean 1/8" jacks

Yes, of course you're right - I guess writing 1/4" was wishful thinking...
J3RK
ersatzplanet wrote:
felixer wrote:
RealDudes wrote:
can we convince Gur to make more stackables now?

it should be possible to design a stackable with both banana and minijack: everybody happy w00t


one could make an adaptor with a 1/8" plug and a female banana on the other end - and make it a short cable so the stress is not on the jack. You could stack bananas like crazy to it. Not much different from using passive multiples at that point though.
The problem is of course that the other Eurorack modules you would be connecting to don't have buffered inputs and outputs. I'm assuming the Serge does and that is why you can stack without worry of droop on a serge - or can you?

Also - just to start another possible "Euro sucks because of this" branch from this thread - what is the supply on a Serge, is it +/-12v or +/-15v? I am wondering how much convert ion the designs will go through if they are originally for a +/-15v PS.


Serge is +/-12V. I've never experienced any droop on the panel I had, so I assume things are fairly well buffered. It's been a while since I've seen Serge schematics, but this has never really been a concern in my experience.

I tend to buffer the living hell out of everything I design these days. Mr. Green
divisionbyzero
ersatzplanet wrote:
one could make an adaptor with a 1/8" plug and a female banana on the other end - and make it a short cable so the stress is not on the jack. You could stack bananas like crazy to it. Not much different from using passive multiples at that point though.

you'd actually need to make a 1/8" plug with _two_ female banana jacks on the other end since banana doesn't carry ground along with it. or at least you'd need one of these per physical euro power supply.
Selador
Despite all the kids apparently playing on peoples' lawns here, I'd say this is arguably the best time in history to be into modular gear.

I can't even afford a lawn on a student budget.. This presents a chance to twiddle a VQVCF's knobs while keeping both my kidneys.
richard
AntManBee wrote:
it seems peverse to suggest making them with bananas when the whole of euro uses 1/4" jacks


I haven't read every word of this thread but I'm not sure anyone was suggesting that? I suggested that a choice between bananas and 1/8" would be ideal, or failing that, that easy conversion might be born in mind at the design stage. Some euro modules, Cwejman and Malekko for example, make this trickier than others. A Serge euro module should make it easy to convert to banana, otherwise you may as well go DIY = no sale for Bananalogue.
oljud
richard wrote:
are we going to talk about Rex's business model now? I do hope not.

I suspect a nuclear fucking war or ..


I thought you were talking about Rex-discussions there :-)

Oh and Serge and Cwejman banana euro would be w00t
CJ Miller
News flash! First time I see this page at CGS:

http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs775_vcs.html

This is a page especially for the Bananalogue Euro version of the VCS. Compare the build diagram of this with the 4U version, and it illustrates how much more fiddly it is to work around the size constraints. My guess is that Ken will be offering these for sale again soon - probably for a lot less than the boardset that I bought from Seth.
theglyph
divisionbyzero wrote:
ersatzplanet wrote:
one could make an adaptor with a 1/8" plug and a female banana on the other end - and make it a short cable so the stress is not on the jack. You could stack bananas like crazy to it. Not much different from using passive multiples at that point though.

you'd actually need to make a 1/8" plug with _two_ female banana jacks on the other end since banana doesn't carry ground along with it. or at least you'd need one of these per physical euro power supply.


I think there are too many people who forget this! hihi It's actually a common problem, no pun intended, within the DIY community trying to fuse banana and 1/8 or 1/4 jacks.
MindMachine
So STS/Rex does not own the Serge designs?
Rigo
CJ Miller wrote:
News flash! First time I see this page at CGS:

http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs775_vcs.html

This is a page especially for the Bananalogue Euro version of the VCS. Compare the build diagram of this with the 4U version, and it illustrates how much more fiddly it is to work around the size constraints. My guess is that Ken will be offering these for sale again soon - probably for a lot less than the boardset that I bought from Seth.

This: http://www.elby-designs.com/contents/en-us/p732_CGS775_-_Serge_VCS.htm l ?
BooleanYulian
MindMachine wrote:
So STS/Rex does not own the Serge designs?


nope.. the intellectual property, or most of it, still belongs to Serge T.
Soviet Space Child
Seriously? Why all of the fuss? These designs becoming available in Euro doesn't make my STS setup sound/perform any worse. I love how the sound, build quality, and ergonomics of my system makes it feel like a complete musical instrument. Euro just doesn't do that for me, but more power to the folks who can look past that and make quality music with their Euro setups. In the end, I think these new modules will just serve as a stepping stone towards more comprehensive systems, such as those offered by Rex.
REwire
I think it's funny all the fuss being made when there's already been the Bananalogue VCS and WVX for years and they haven't caused that much excitement and have been traunced by Maths and many Wave Folders.

A Serge filter was the whole reason I bought a Creature to interface with Euro and a new Euro Serge VCF-Q would be real cool for a while until it goes into the "Which filter is best" thread fodder and gets lost in the Euro universe. meh

Dan
CJ Miller
BooleanYulian wrote:
MindMachine wrote:
So STS/Rex does not own the Serge designs?


nope.. the intellectual property, or most of it, still belongs to Serge T.


What I have been told, (but which I cannot claim to know first hand) is that Rex basically owns the "artwork". The original PCB layouts, the module names, and the front panel designs. Serge owns the actual circuits.
amnesia
REwire wrote:
I think it's funny all the fuss being made when there's already been the Bananalogue VCS and WVX for years and they haven't caused that much excitement and have been traunced by Maths and many Wave Folders.

A Serge filter was the whole reason I bought a Creature to interface with Euro and a new Euro Serge VCF-Q would be real cool for a while until it goes into the "Which filter is best" thread fodder and gets lost in the Euro universe. meh

Dan

+1
ignatius
Soviet Space Child wrote:
Seriously? Why all of the fuss?


apparently it's the internet seriously, i just don't get it Mr. Green
jenamu6
ignatius wrote:
Soviet Space Child wrote:
Seriously? Why all of the fuss?


apparently it's the internet seriously, i just don't get it Mr. Green



woah woah Is this the internet too?
So it actually can be a warm place screaming goo yo
ignatius
jenamu6 wrote:
ignatius wrote:
Soviet Space Child wrote:
Seriously? Why all of the fuss?


apparently it's the internet seriously, i just don't get it Mr. Green



woah woah Is this the internet too?
So it actually can be a warm place screaming goo yo


Mr. Green = joke. but yes.. i'd hope that muffs is warm. ZING!
Liddlepud
Leoespejo
Peace my dear friends i see it this way: as more module makers better as more music makers better if Serge is coming to Euro great for me if not great too, only if there are going to be more electric music boxes.

And i see too much speculation in here and not a word from Bananalogue.
dmitri
Its so cool that Serge can collect some fund so many years later for all the great work he did. The more I read and learn about him the more he is The SuperMan of synths to me 8_)
doombient.music
amnesia wrote:
did you know about this?
http://sergesynthesizers.com/ [...]


The site is impressively empty-looking.

Stephen
ignatius
dmitri wrote:
Its so cool that Serge can collect some fund so many years later for all the great work he did. The more I read and learn about him the more he is The SuperMan of synths to me 8_)


any recommended reading for serge history/info (other than google)?
bartlebooth
ignatius wrote:

any recommended reading for serge history/info (other than google)?


there's this on Egres: http://www.serge-fans.com/history.htm
and this: http://m.matrixsynth.com/2010/04/darrell-johansen-snapshots-of-early.h tml

there's also some very good information the older systems at ken stone's serge site: http://www.serge.synth.net/documents/index.html
aethersprite
Some beautiful photos in the Johansen article, thanks Bartlebooth!
tompty
Oh man! Just found this thread. Why all the bitching? Seriously.
One of the most respected synth brands comes to Euro! This is really exciting .

Are people pissed because they have invested so much in STS panels? From what I gather Rex will carry on production, so what is the worry.
richard
...what "people"? - this mythical mass of angry Serge owners carrying portraits of Rex and burning effigies of Dieter Doepfer in his white labcoat?

Seems to me the thread is 95% wigglers going yaay! including a couple who would refer the option of bananas and a couple of folks who are a bit uneasy about the announcement (at least one of whom doesn't own any Serge AFAIK) and the rest saying, "dudes don't kill each other, why all the fuss?"

But this isn't even fuss, compared to the drivel we've had in the past whenever Serge and Euro are mentioned in the same header this seems like one big love in to me.
tompty
all good then.
I'm well excited about this.
CJ Miller
tompty wrote:
?


If you really want to know what people's concerns are, you could just read the thread. hihi

I mentioned that I thought Euro was not very robust - basically a pain to build and play compared to the regular 4U variety. And people jumped on my case, which I basically expected. I asked the flamers to provide any practical benefits to Euro which did not involve a popularity contest (ie technical reasons) and people started flinging feces about me wanting the modules to cost more, being an elitist prick and not wanting more people to have them, implying loyalty to Rex, general snobbery, etc. It was crazy.

The only responses which addressed my comments were that for people really pressed for space, the smaller size of a Eurorack setup is crucial. I am grateful that a couple people actually bothered to read my posts and consider reasoned answers.

Basically I am a 4U Serge loyalist who requires 4U, but refuses to deal with STS. My setup is quite incomplete, so I have been hoping for new Serge, but... Dead Banana
BananaPlug
CJ, I understand where you're coming from but maybe you should give up on this thread for a while. Dead Banana

Getting any product out the door is a gamble, there are a lot of euro systems and a lot of people with euro gear like to buy new modules. The steady stream of new stuff attracts people looking for a steady stream of new stuff, which attracts makers of new stuff. If you play that game you're stuck with euro's pros and cons. Whatever these modules turn out to be, the Serge fans who might have considered adding a 3u row of them to supplement their gear won't want mini jacks and people using euro won't want bananas.

Bananalogue's not said much yet. I'm hoping they do a nice job of it and recoup their investment by selling hundreds of euro modules. Euro turnover being what it is they'll turn up in the used market before long and then maybe I'll make myself frac banana versions. If you must have 4u something like that may be your best bet.
Muff Wiggler
I remember when Wiard announced the 1200 series, nothing but excitement. Then they announced euro rack, in this case the ONLY concern was from ONE person (who didn't own any Wiard) who was butthurt that he couldn't get "everything" in 300 series format.

When I see the (few) people bitching about Serge euro availability and saying things like "it's not fair" the only thing I can think is that they are simply afraid they will have a harder time convincing themselves about the supposed superiority of their overpriced Rex stuff.

Because there's no other reasonable explanation for the drama. The argument that "this format I don't use is mechanically inferior" is no sensible ground to object to wider availability.

As a user of neither euro rack nor Serge it's all pretty funny to watch.
kkonkkrete
Well, suppose (hypothetically) the complete serge catalogue suddenly became available at much lower price than through STS. I could understand it if some serge owners got frustrated that they had spent so much on their own synths, when suddenly you could get the "equivalent" (notwithstanding the obvious differences) for much less money. It's like saving for years to buy a car, and then some time afterwards the model you bought is suddenly available for a fraction of the price. That feeling of frustration that you wasted money has nothing to do with elitism, or not wanting others to have access to your status symbol. It just means you're annoyed that you could have had more, or spent less.

Personally I couldn't care less, the more the merrier. But I can understand how it could lead to some buyer's remorse. Anyway, lot's of ifs and buts, but I hope you see the point I'm trying to make.
sersch
I bought STS "Dual ADSR" M-class module for the sole purpose of offering me 2 ADSRs in the STS format. I could have gotten at least comparable, if not better ADSRs by using the Cwejman Dual ADSR, and save a substantial amount of money. I even tried using Cwejman ADSRs with my Serge, they worked great, and yet I finally bought the STS "Dual ADSR".

So no buyers remorse on my side. As I wrote before: I just prefer bananas over 1/8 inch jacks for several reasons, I like the aesthetics of STS panels and M-class modules, and my clumsy butterfingers just feel more comfortable on the 4U STS form factor.

As a user of both Eurorack and STS, I can not subscribe to general "STS is superior" claims. Both formats have their own benefits and shortcomings, but hey – every system and every synthesizer has its own shortcomings and benefits. I have not found the "perfect" system, and I have been searching for 30 years now.

In fact I now tend to believe that this search is futile, and finally came around to follow the advice a manufacturer once gave me when I complained about something I – again looking for perfection – perceived as weak built quality:

"Play it with a smile."
de_raaf
speculations, first lets see how it will go :-)[/s]
CJ Miller
I don't know why people keep talking about drama, fuss, butthurt, etc. Just because I don't see much reason for the format change doesn't mean that I am suffering from emotional problems over this. My personal investment is irrelevant to me, as it should be to anybody else.

What ultimately worries me about people is when they disregard their ability to make deliberate, carefully reasoned decisions - and instead just jump on some bandwagon. Honestly, it doesn't need to matter what it is about, just the tendency itself is something I am wary of. For instance, I was a bicycle mechanic for a while. And there was a trend of practically everybody coming to the store wanting to buy a mountain bike. But I quickly realized that most people were not doing trail riding on them. I'd casually ask them, "why a mountain bike?" and they did not know why they wanted a mountain bike, it was just obvious to them that it was what they should get. seriously, i just don't get it

Personally, I make lists of reasons for, against, or neutral for important decisions. When external influences present themselves, I like to test the rigor of the menu they offer. What are the technical benefits? What are the cultural virtues? Reasoned arguments seem to get more done, whereas huge demographics of people doing random things for abstract statistical caprice seem to just clutter the works - regardless of how many they are. We engineer human behavior and culture with each decision we make, it is worth doing well. nanners
bwhittington
CJ Miller wrote:
Personally, I make lists of reasons for, against, or neutral for important decisions.


Possibly, in the case of bicycles and synthesizers, many people do not consider these to be important decisions? I suspect many might spend a good deal more time contemplating where to send child to school, for example. Or what church or workforce to be a part of. Or possibly not, for all I really know.

Cheers,
Brian
theglyph
bwhittington wrote:
CJ Miller wrote:
Personally, I make lists of reasons for, against, or neutral for important decisions.


Possibly, in the case of bicycles and synthesizers, many people do not consider these to be important decisions? I suspect many might spend a good deal more time contemplating where to send child to school, for example. Or what church or workforce to be a part of. Or possibly not, for all I really know.

Cheers,
Brian


Possibly how one makes breakfast, lunch and dinner!

hihi

CJ Miller
bwhittington wrote:
Possibly, in the case of bicycles and synthesizers, many people do not consider these to be important decisions? I suspect many might spend a good deal more time contemplating where to send child to school, for example. Or what church or workforce to be a part of. Or possibly not, for all I really know.


Good point. If people can barely be bothered to make rational decisions on a small scale, what practice do they have for making decisions on a larger scale?

This is part of the reason why DIY can be such a pervasive ethic. One might be quite lucky to find social institutions "off the shelf" which address an individuals personal or cultural goals and values. So in this domain DIY can be even more crucial. If people imagine that there are heavy flames for being opinionated about the design and construction of synthesizers... when it comes to DIY substitutes to improve upon schools, churches, and companies - it gets even more challenging. People tend to get hotly reactionary instead of rational and demand conformity with design standards that they do not even care to understand.

So, with synths as with life in general - it seems wise to entertain skepticism when people propose or accept standards without thinking it through.
Count Edlington
I think people are forgetting that these things are just synths, they're supposed to be used to make music with, thats all.
They're just tools that you use to realise your ideas and if you can do that with Serge, cool, if you can do it with euro, cool also. I think debating the merits of build quality, jack type, blah blah has its place of course but I've heard plenty of great music coming from both serge and eurorack and that's all that matters to me......
rockmanrock
I think it's just a general feeling of annoyance that the world has settled on a format with the worst ergonomics, the worst connectors (audio and power) and the worst power supplies.

I cringe when I see Youtube vids of people tweaking their Eurorack knobs using a fingertip because that's all they can fit in there. It's like making everyone play mini-guitars or mini-drumkits.

Minijacks are a joke compared to bananas and the stackables are an expensive bodge. Unfixable too if they're moulded.
rico loverde
i really don't get the ergonomics debate. i have played with a few serges and have a diy serge panel laid out by the serge template. i also have a ton of euro. i find the serge is just a cramped if not more so than some of the euro i have. once theres a ton of patch cables in any system it gets cramped. some euro is very tight others not so much so saying all euro has poor ergonomics seems silly to me. now if it were 5U vs euro/serge I could see that.
Rod Serling Fan Club
True, most euro panels outside of say, intellijel, actually have similar spacing dimensions for the knobs as serge.

I call bullshit on the psu issue as well. Serge and Buchla both use switching PSU's, both at 12v. Serge also has the larger PSU, which is just a power-one linear supply. I use these in my diy stuff. They cost me about $25 each. I've seen a few euro cases with these in them. I've read star spacing distribution is better but who is using that, just frac?
Low-Gain
well in that case.. Someone PM me serge's email address.. i'm gunna license the DUSG and just be done with it. LOL
sersch
rico loverde wrote:
once theres a ton of patch cables in any system it gets cramped.

Sure. But I rather dig thru a web of banana cables than 1/8 cables. In my Eurorack system I do get jack contact problem when digging (and I mean really digging!) thru high-density cabling. Never had these issues with bananas.
rockmanrock
Rod Serling Fan Club wrote:
True, most euro panels outside of say, intellijel, actually have similar spacing dimensions for the knobs as serge.


Well from what I've seen, the original 70s Serge had 6 pots to a 4U high row and all pots and banana jacks were on a 1 inch grid. This seems pretty ergonomic to me. Later on (STS onwards?) they've got 8 pots/jacks vertically in a 4U (but still 1 inch on the horizontal spacing?) which is pushing it.

Eurorack seems to commonly go for sub 1 inch spacing, and with jacks crammed in tightly as well it's just unnecessarily fiddly. Things like attenuators and input mixers seem to be left off too in an effort to get the size down. I'm in Europe and I agree we've got small houses compared to America, but 4U is still pretty compact, going any smaller than that is just too small for me.
Soviet Space Child
Muff Wiggler wrote:
overpriced Rex stuff.


Thanks for your neutral, constructive, and objective contribution to this thread. I won't be holding my breath for your statements in regards to "overpriced Grant stuff".
Parallel Worlds
theboddy wrote:
It's not the instrument that makes the music it's you, the musician.

Use whatever works for you.

It doesn't matter.

The music is what counts.

Dead Banana

exactly! thumbs up thumbs up
cebec
Soviet Space Child wrote:
Muff Wiggler wrote:
overpriced Rex stuff.


Thanks for your neutral, constructive, and objective contribution to this thread. I won't be holding my breath for your statements in regards to "overpriced Grant stuff".


Seriously... meh
rico loverde
Soviet Space Child wrote:
Muff Wiggler wrote:
overpriced Rex stuff.


Thanks for your neutral, constructive, and objective contribution to this thread. I won't be holding my breath for your statements in regards to "overpriced Grant stuff".
grants stuff really isnt that overpriced. if you look at the price of a single euro module and take in the fact that most of grants 300 series are dual modules than it works out to be pretty well priced. the build quality and functionality are amazing for the price.

so because muff created tis forum is he not suppose to have opinions? anyone but him but can slag stuff?

personally id love to have a serge system and dont wanna come across as knocking them, its this whole my format is better than yours debate that i find so childish. my daddy is bigger than your daddy...
cebec
rico loverde wrote:
its this whole my format is better than yours debate that i find so childish. my daddy is bigger than your daddy...


Which is precisely what his post contributed to, IMO. I'm not interested in participating in the debate at all but I was disappointed by his post in this thread. It seemed like he was just trying to stir shit up.

Why, as a moderator ostensibly concerned with keeping things civil, wade into a thread discussing two formats he admittedly doesn't use or own and make an uninformed and incendiary comment?
AntManBee
cebec wrote:
rico loverde wrote:
its this whole my format is better than yours debate that i find so childish. my daddy is bigger than your daddy...


Which is precisely what his post contributed to, IMO. I'm not interested in participating in the debate at all but I was disappointed by his post in this thread. It seemed like he was just trying to stir shit up.

Why, as a moderator ostensibly concerned with keeping things civil, wade into a thread discussing two formats he admittedly doesn't use or own and make an uninformed and incendiary comment?

I think Muff was being humourously provocative when he wrote "overpriced Rex stuff" - you know how sensitive Serge owners can be!
felixer
theglyph wrote:
divisionbyzero wrote:
ersatzplanet wrote:
one could make an adaptor with a 1/8" plug and a female banana on the other end - and make it a short cable so the stress is not on the jack. You could stack bananas like crazy to it. Not much different from using passive multiples at that point though.

you'd actually need to make a 1/8" plug with _two_ female banana jacks on the other end since banana doesn't carry ground along with it. or at least you'd need one of these per physical euro power supply.


I think there are too many people who forget this! hihi It's actually a common problem, no pun intended, within the DIY community trying to fuse banana and 1/8 or 1/4 jacks.

not a problem, really, as long as both systems have a good, common ground connection. just one cable per frame/chassis. might be slightly noisy if using unscreened cables for low level audio, but that's a typical limitation of using banana's Mr. Green
richard
I've never noticed any noise whatsoever using bananas and no interference from mains, radio, computer etc so this seems to be a mythical or at least theoretical problem. I can imagine longer cable lengths might reveal problems but in the lengths one would would typically use for a modular I don't think so.
parasitk
richard wrote:
I've never noticed any noise whatsoever using bananas and no interference from mains, radio, computer etc so this seems to be a mythical or at least theoretical problem. I can imagine longer cable lengths might reveal problems but in the lengths one would would typically use for a modular I don't think so.


Same here.
ignatius
parasitk wrote:
richard wrote:
I've never noticed any noise whatsoever using bananas and no interference from mains, radio, computer etc so this seems to be a mythical or at least theoretical problem. I can imagine longer cable lengths might reveal problems but in the lengths one would would typically use for a modular I don't think so.


Same here.


ditto. i loved the shit out of banana Modcan A system i had... never any issues with noise.. banana cables are great. i do miss them some times.
Monobass
From now on please can Serge 4U users no longer refer to 'Serge Format' but clearly state Serge 3U or Serge 4U. Thanks.
rico loverde
Monobass wrote:
From now on please can Serge 4U users no longer refer to 'Serge Format' but clearly state Serge 3U or Serge 4U. Thanks.
oh shit thats funny. your playing with fire on that one hihi
Monobass
I overheard Serge himself saying he thought the new Serge 3U format would actually sound '5% more Serge-like'.
shaft9000
so now we have established by hearsay(to the rest of us) and internet-uendo that STS is less... authentic ...uh-oh, shitstorms shall abound Guinness ftw!

just gimmee It's peanut butter jelly time! -ability and we can all be happy one way or another
amnesia
If we are purely talking about banana vs minijack I have to say banana wins everytime, but I prefer my euro modular because it is the most advanced modular system in terms of products.

If you patch hundreds of patch cables to make a complex sound no matter if its Serge, Buchla, Euro its all hard to get to knobs to tweak.
richard
Monobass I have to say that I think your euro trolling is much more edgy and impressive than your Serge trolling which always seems a bit feeble in comparison. I guess you don't have quite the same feel for the format, it feels like you are guessing. Your timing is lame too - this thread is pretty much spent by now isn't it? Would have been more effective a few days ago, maybe in the wake of Mike's post.

It might be entertaining if it pays off, but I'd be surprised if you manage to really pull anyone in. Good luck with it though!
CursedFrogurt
Monobass wrote:
I overheard Serge himself saying he thought the new Serge 3U format would actually sound '5% more Serge-like'.


Take it back you piece of shit!

Take that richard!
Parallel Worlds
Monobass wrote:
I overheard Serge himself saying he thought the new Serge 3U format would actually sound '5% more Serge-like'.


lol lol
ignatius
so then there's this thread and all hysteria and then it goes away... and gets bumped.

Mr. Green
mayanspring
so i admit to skipping like the middle 10 pages of this post as I have read many similar in my eurorack homeland...
but as a curious tourist here in the buchla/serge/ems forum... I wonder if you guys who have these have noticed any significant difference in sound quality between these formats vs the Eurorack format.
I only started a relatively short while ago, and my only source of knowledge on the subject I could go to first hand was my eurorack using roomate, I figured it was a fine way to start considering all the above praised qualities...
but the one thing that made me nervous was that it did not sound quite as thick and lush as my 30 year old mono synths...
so I wonder, if it is because they are 30 years old... or if perhaps it does have to do with the size/parts/mini jacks that make the sound seem a bit more thin...
do these more expensive brands sound considerably better to anyone? do the LPG's of the Buchla ring infinitely warmer and rounder than those of the QMMG? is eurorack just a bit too small for a full sound comparatively? or is it really all about knob size, one or another feature that fits on the module, banana or not, build quality, etc...???
richard
I don't think module size means very much sonically, designer ethos and manufacturer ethos amount to quite a lot more. But its not something I'm even prepared to discuss here anymore because certain people tend to get so defensive. I just know what I like the sound of and I am lucky that that is the stuff I own and get to use thumbs up

And honestly for many of us I think the interface which dictates how you actually interact with the system is just as important - and how those two things come together is everything.
gwaidan
mayanspring wrote:
so i admit to skipping like the middle 10 pages of this post as I have read many similar in my eurorack homeland...
but as a curious tourist here in the buchla/serge/ems forum... I wonder if you guys who have these have noticed any significant difference in sound quality between these formats vs the Eurorack format.
I only started a relatively short while ago, and my only source of knowledge on the subject I could go to first hand was my eurorack using roomate, I figured it was a fine way to start considering all the above praised qualities...
but the one thing that made me nervous was that it did not sound quite as thick and lush as my 30 year old mono synths...
so I wonder, if it is because they are 30 years old... or if perhaps it does have to do with the size/parts/mini jacks that make the sound seem a bit more thin...
do these more expensive brands sound considerably better to anyone? do the LPG's of the Buchla ring infinitely warmer and rounder than those of the QMMG? is eurorack just a bit too small for a full sound comparatively? or is it really all about knob size, one or another feature that fits on the module, banana or not, build quality, etc...???


Your 30 year old synths sound the way they do because they probably used low-accuracy components that have drifted in value quite a bit in the last three decades. Ken Macbeth makes a conscious effort to use older-style parts and the proof is in the sound of his modules. ARP and Roland (semi) modulars used minijacks too-no problem with their sound.
Kent
I love all fun stuff that sounds awesome! I have a preferred format, but use and own many. They all have strengths and weaknesses.

What you guys do to find pleasure in your own homes has scant impact upon my pleasure. Knock yourselves out!

seriously, i just don't get it
construct09
What you guys do to find pleasure in your own homes has scant impact upon my pleasure. Knock yourselves out!

seriously, i just don't get it[/quote]

Oh, C,mon
You love belittling us Hug
home_listening
A good idea remains such regardless of how its realised!


Count Edlington wrote:
I think people are forgetting that these things are just synths, they're supposed to be used to make music with, thats all.
They're just tools that you use to realise your ideas and if you can do that with Serge, cool, if you can do it with euro, cool also. I think debating the merits of build quality, jack type, blah blah has its place of course but I've heard plenty of great music coming from both serge and eurorack and that's all that matters to me......



The whole argument about euro being worse quality is simply void. There are many different companies, different price points and of course different quality. Buy what suits you.

Its always been clear that there are two leanings with modular synthesis (and synthesis in general). People who use the tools they need to realise an idea and the people who simply want to collect synthesizers. We're all a little of both. So with my musician hat on, I'm thinking 'great, There are more modules coming out, more colours in the palette, at a cheaper pricepoint than the serge'. At the same time, I really can appreciate the collectors point of view as well. There are plenty of aspects of the Serge that aren't going to translate that well into eurorack, such as their uncanny ability to turn a set of modules in to an INSTRUMENT.

As mentioned by previous posters, I don't think this will hurt STS at all. I imagine that this will give more people a taste of the serge sound/functions/build quality and eventually, for me at least, that will always lead back to the original.
home_listening
DP.
Pfurmel
home_listening wrote:
So with my musician hat on, I'm thinking 'great, There are more modules coming out, more colours in the palette, at a cheaper pricepoint than the serge'.


Is there a pricelist available yet?
home_listening
Pfurmel wrote:
home_listening wrote:
So with my musician hat on, I'm thinking 'great, There are more modules coming out, more colours in the palette, at a cheaper pricepoint than the serge'.


Is there a pricelist available yet?


haha no! Your right, I made a huge assumption. I'm also assuming that they will be available as individual modules and not panels, which does reduce the cost of entry somewhat.
Muff Wiggler
Soviet Space Child wrote:
Muff Wiggler wrote:
overpriced Rex stuff.


Thanks for your neutral, constructive, and objective contribution to this thread. I won't be holding my breath for your statements in regards to "overpriced Grant stuff".


Hmm. My statement certainly wasn't neutral. Nor constructive. Nor objective.

Or did I miss the sarcasm?

It also certainly wasn't uninformed. Rex stuff is overpriced. I'm not saying its bad, I'm not saying it isn't worth it, and I'm not judging people who use it. I actually think its great stuff, but I also think it's overpriced. WAY overpriced even.

I don't think Wiard stuff is over priced.

Like I'm free to have an opinion (owning this forum doesn't preclude that, and I'm not just here to moderate btw.... If that was true I'd have shut this place down years ago) so are you. I respect your opinion that I'm wrong here and that doesn't bother me.

But I'll say it again (this time with the disclaimer that "it's only my opinion" because apparently some folks need that), Rex stuff is overpriced. So there. If you don't like my opinion, oh well. Blow me. w00t
SquidboatCommander
Yep, that's certainly one way of looking at it. . . Here is another opinion: "overpriced" implies that you are overpaying for what you are getting. Rex's STS Serge products are NOT overpriced because you do get what you pay for. . . MY opinion smile


Muff Wiggler wrote:
Soviet Space Child wrote:
Muff Wiggler wrote:
overpriced Rex stuff.


Thanks for your neutral, constructive, and objective contribution to this thread. I won't be holding my breath for your statements in regards to "overpriced Grant stuff".


Hmm. My statement certainly wasn't neutral. Nor constructive. Nor objective.

Or did I miss the sarcasm?

It also certainly wasn't uninformed. Rex stuff is overpriced. I'm not saying its bad, I'm not saying it isn't worth it, and I'm not judging people who use it. I actually think its great stuff, but I also think it's overpriced. WAY overpriced even.

I don't think Wiard stuff is over priced.

Like I'm free to have an opinion (owning this forum doesn't preclude that, and I'm not just here to moderate btw.... If that was true I'd have shut this place down years ago) so are you. I respect your opinion that I'm wrong here and that doesn't bother me.

But I'll say it again (this time with the disclaimer that "it's only my opinion" because apparently some folks need that), Rex stuff is overpriced. So there. If you don't like my opinion, oh well. Blow me. w00t
phisynth
and here we go again.... meh
Nils
Muff Wiggler wrote:
If you don't like my opinion, oh well. Blow me. w00t


d'oh! d'oh! d'oh!
b3nsf
It takes all types of people in this world, and the whole "blow me" thing is very true at the core... If you don't like my way, then there's the highway... that is the most basic human right.


thumbs up
Muff Wiggler
Seriously. The whole point of a forum, or discussion in general, is for people to express their opinion.

It's always just bizarre to watch people who are clearly enjoying the chance to express their own opinion jump down the throats of other people for doing the same.

Although it would be pretty funny to see a forum that was nothing but a circle-jerk of people agreeing with each other.
ignatius
Muff Wiggler wrote:

Although it would be pretty funny to see a forum that was nothing but a circle-jerk of people agreeing with each other.


yes, i agree, that would be pretty funny
fredguy
ignatius wrote:
Muff Wiggler wrote:

Although it would be pretty funny to see a forum that was nothing but a circle-jerk of people agreeing with each other.


yes, i agree, that would be pretty funny


Try the Rickenbacker or Ernie Ball sponsored forums. Everyone is looking to be on the receiving end of a little sponsor bukkake.
chrisso
Muff Wiggler wrote:

It's always just bizarre to watch people who are clearly enjoying the chance to express their own opinion jump down the throats of other people for doing the same.


+100 thumbs up
Christopher Winkels
fredguy wrote:
ignatius wrote:
Muff Wiggler wrote:

Although it would be pretty funny to see a forum that was nothing but a circle-jerk of people agreeing with each other.


yes, i agree, that would be pretty funny


Try the Rickenbacker or Ernie Ball sponsored forums. Everyone is looking to be on the receiving end of a little sponsor bukkake.


I for one welcome the bukkake if it's emanating from Ken Macbeth's assembly lab.
Soviet Space Child
Muff Wiggler wrote:

Rex stuff is overpriced. I'm not saying its bad, I'm not saying it isn't worth it


These two statements are seemingly at odds with one another. Saying that something is overpriced implicitly states that the ratio of cost of entry vs. that of utility is substantially skewed towards the former rather than the latter, from which one can deduce that something which is deemed "overpriced" is certainly not "worth it".

Muff Wiggler wrote:

I don't think Wiard stuff is over priced.


Based on which metric? Dollars to oscillators? Dollars to perceived audio quality? Dollars to uniqueness/boutique factor? Wiard prices aren't too far out of line with Serge, so I'm genuinely curious where the distinction of "Rex stuff" being overpriced comes from, when you think the opposite in regards to Wiard.

Muff Wiggler wrote:

Like I'm free to have an opinion (owning this forum doesn't preclude that, and I'm not just here to moderate btw.... If that was true I'd have shut this place down years ago) so are you. I respect your opinion that I'm wrong here and that doesn't bother me.

But I'll say it again (this time with the disclaimer that "it's only my opinion" because apparently some folks need that), Rex stuff is overpriced. So there. If you don't like my opinion, oh well. Blow me. w00t


No, owning this forum certainly does not preclude you from an opinion, but one would hope that, being the proprietor of this website, that you would take it upon yourself to act as a model citizen of sorts towards the rest of the users, lurking or otherwise. One doesn't run a successful forum, in the loosest sense of the word, i.e. a place to exchange ideas, whether it be a pub, classroom, business etc., by instigating, or initiating, brawls between participants. What's to stop someone from seeing your contributions to this thread and saying to themselves "well, this is how things are around here", and stirring the pot themselves in other parts of the forum?

Furthermore, "Rex stuff" doesn't come from a giant corporation. It comes from a small team of people who make a living doing something that they're passionate about. Plenty of users come to this forum in order to get advice on purchases, and if they see the owner of said forum denigrating a particular brand, they may take that to heart more readily than if a random user had stated the same opinion. With that in mind, the sale of an Animal panel means a hell of a lot more to a couple of folks in Wisconsin than the sale of a workstation means to some bean counter in Japan.
Nils
Muff Wiggler wrote:
Seriously. The whole point of a forum, or discussion in general, is for people to express their opinion.


Totally agree. But there are many different ways to express one's opinion. I would think someone like you to express yourself in a more respectful way, considering who you are.
Muff Wiggler
Dude, my name is "Muff Wiggler". That should say enough.

I 'set a tone' here? It's funny since people act the way they want - certainly not following my lead, often to my chagrin. But when they don't like what I've said, suddenly I'm the one setting the tone for all to follow? C'mon. Be fair.

Now do we really REALLY want to get into a dollars-per-oscullator type examination of Wiard vs Serge pricing?

Hint: you don't.

Another hint: open one of Rex's magical power supplies. Then I dare you to come back and challenge my opinion here.

I'm sorry you don't like it, I really am. But the stuff is overpriced. Compared to anything in the scene it's overpriced. It's great stuff but it's comically overpriced. If it wasn't I would have a lot of it. This is coming from a guy who has spent around $30k on products from one manufacturer.

I'm glad Rex is in business. I'm glad people love his stuff, hell I love his stuff, but I think it's obscenely overpriced. To the point that it's truly comical to me.

Love your system but not to the point of delusion. It is what it is - the cost of entry is staggering and more power to Rex for making it work. In my not-so_humble opinion the pricing is obscene.
Soviet Space Child
Muff Wiggler wrote:
Dude, my name is "Muff Wiggler". That should say enough.

I 'set a tone' here? It's funny since people act the way they want - certainly not following my lead, often to my chagrin. But when they don't like what I've said, suddenly I'm the one setting the tone for all to follow? C'mon. Be fair.

Now do we really REALLY want to get into a dollars-per-oscullator type examination of Wiard vs Serge pricing?

Hint: you don't.

Another hint: open one of Rex's magical power supplies. Then I dare you to come back and challenge my opinion here.

I'm sorry you don't like it, I really am. But the stuff is overpriced. Compared to anything in the scene it's overpriced. It's great stuff but it's comically overpriced. If it wasn't I would have a lot of it. This is coming from a guy who has spent around $30k on products from one manufacturer.

I'm glad Rex is in business. I'm glad people love his stuff, hell I love his stuff, but I think it's obscenely overpriced. To the point that it's truly comical to me.

Love your system but not to the point of delusion. It is what it is - the cost of entry is staggering and more power to Rex for making it work. In my not-so_humble opinion the pricing is obscene.


So instead of actually taking the time to address any of my concerns, you opt to double down on your attack on a small manufacturer. Classy.
Muff Wiggler
seriously, i just don't get it I guess some folks only see what they want to.
noobyscooby
I think that Wiard 300 series is overpriced. If it wasn't I would have a lot of it. I have Modcan A, Serge and many vintage synthesizers. I find them less overpriced than the Wiard 300 series.

Here's a fucking newsflash. It's ALL overpriced. Euro and 5U too. Like other boutique industries we are willing to pay premiums for handmade, limited items. But the price of admission is what it is. And for me Modcan A and Serge are my favorites.

So if everyone is free to express their opinions regardless of what others think or feel again does that mean that Nelson Babboon is going to be invited back? There's been a lot of pissing matches and bad vibes around here lately that i don't think were any worse than grumpy Gene's rants. Seems like since he's been gone a few members have been puffing their chests out extra hard in a manner that doesn't suit them well.
essex sound lab
noobyscooby wrote:

So if everyone is free to express their opinions regardless of what others think or feel again does that mean that Nelson Babboon is going to be invited back?


Bingo.
Muff Wiggler
noobyscooby wrote:
I think that Wiard 300 series is overpriced. If it wasn't I would have a lot of it. I have Modcan A, Serge and many vintage synthesizers. I find them less overpriced than the Wiard 300 series.


i (obviously) disagree but certainly respect your opinion, understand why you feel that way and don't hold it against you in the least!

Quote:
So if everyone is free to express their opinions regardless of what others think or feel again does that mean that Nelson Babboon is going to be invited back?


Absolutely not. While some take the expression of opinions by others in a personal way, Nelson Baboon went out of the way to MAKE his statements personal attacks. His behaviour went far, far beyond expressing an opinion. Surely I don't have to explain the difference.
essex sound lab
Muff Wiggler wrote:

Absolutely not. While some take the expression of opinions by others in a personal way, Nelson Baboon went out of the way to MAKE his statements personal attacks. His behaviour went far, far beyond expressing an opinion. Surely I don't have to explain the difference.


Well, you don't HAVE to. But I don't honestly see how you could know, with certainty, what his motivations were. There's intent and there's perception. Intent is very hard to objectively ascertain.

And to the poster's point -- I don't see that the "vibes" here have substantially changed after NB's ban. But hey, that's just *my* perception. Someone else may see it all as civil discourse.
essex sound lab
Muff Wiggler wrote:
seriously, i just don't get it I guess some folks only see what they want to.


*All* folks see what they want to. Or, at least, what they're capable of seeing based on their vantage point. All of us.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
noobyscooby wrote:
Here's a fucking newsflash. It's ALL overpriced. Euro and 5U too. Like other boutique industries we are willing to pay premiums for handmade, limited items.

If you knew just how little money was made on this stuff, you'd understand why. Many manufacturers are doing this out of passion, and barely covering their costs.
Bricks
@ALL
OH YEAH WELL YO MOMMA IS SO FAT THAT SOFTWARE SYNTHS HAVE YET TO REPLICATE HER TONE!

razz

Pretty glad Euro peops will get even more Serge functions/philosophy. Great stuff on both sides.

Also, goddamn everything is expensive.
Astonishing(ly awesome) that there is enough community/economy to keep these businesses going.

Also, I personally would love some well-spaced / 4u high bananafied euro.
Can't even tell you the number of times I've thought about starting a group buy for a 4Unannerified Harvestman panel

Drunken Homer Simpson
noobyscooby
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
noobyscooby wrote:
Here's a fucking newsflash. It's ALL overpriced. Euro and 5U too. Like other boutique industries we are willing to pay premiums for handmade, limited items.

If you knew just how little money was made on this stuff, you'd understand why. Many manufacturers are doing this out of passion, and barely covering their costs.


I do know what goes into it. I do know what's out there and what's come before.

We as consumers pay the price for items that are not mass produced and boutique is my point. I don't give a fuck from a production standpoint. I know no one's turning large profits but that doesn't make it less overpriced than it is. Especially compared to synthesizers produced in large quantities.

For the consumer just looking at the price tag, it is all overpriced. Why do you think there is such a large DIY community? Those who have more time than money choose to build themselves because modular to purchase built is very expensive.
cbm
I guess I'm confused about how the word "overpriced" is being used in this thread.

Are things overpriced because of small market size? This will never be a mass-production market, so economies of scale are hard to achieve. In selling Buchla compatible products, Eardrill is a niche on the end of a niche. I sell twenty of some modules. This means that fixed costs like board layouts have to be amortized over a very small number.

Are things overpriced because they are more than someone wants to pay? There are modular products at a pretty wide range of features & prices. Pick the system that best fits your needs & budget. And if you can squint hard enough to make your time free, there's always DIY.

Are things overpriced because someone is raking in the profit? I don't know anyone who is getting rich on selling modulars. Certainly there's more profit in some systems than others, but is there a % profit which pushes one into the "overpriced" camp?

--

I think that traditional economic analysis falls apart with a tiny business like modular manufacturing. From a financial POV, I think most people would be better off making boutique fuzz tones. I'm glad that there are enough people who are passionate about modulars to allow for the current modular renaissance.
noobyscooby
If you don't go DIY, it's all expensive, regardless of format. That's all I was getting at. But from a consumer perspective, especially one who is not a modular enthusiast, one just looks at the price and thinks all that for that.

But it is all worth it for me.
divisionbyzero
noobyscooby wrote:
Here's a fucking newsflash. It's ALL overpriced. Euro and 5U too. Like other boutique industries we are willing to pay premiums for handmade, limited items.

many euro/5u modules aren't handmade or limited (dotcom and probably every euro manufacturer using smd comes to mind). buchla stuff made after 2005-ish is not handmade or limited. if you have a day job your time is probably more valuable than the time you can buy from a stuffing house to assemble your modules.

and i don't think most modulars are overpriced, at least in the euro/5u realm. for $2k you can get a nice 3 oscillator synth ala a minimoog with the added benefits of patchability, modularity, etc. add a cheap midi keyboard and you're there, much cheaper than a used voyager (i'm not saying the voyager is overpriced, it's awesome, just making a point).

otoh buchla/serge/wiard is expensive, and there reasons for each of those that have been gone over in numerous threads. euro/5u tend to have lower r&d cost relative to the aforementioned brands, especially since a large percentage of the market is just copies of older designs (do we need another ms20/moog/ob filter? another vca? the market says yes).
Entrainer


$1499

Overpriced.
noobyscooby
Entrainer wrote:


$1499

Overpriced.


I have lots of Serge but there's a reason I've never bought a Gator. $1499 for a slope and some basic clock modules. Uh no.

The TKB, Blue Voice, Quadslope and Mayhem (all bought used averaged for about 70% of new) for me represent better value for my money.
noobyscooby
divisionbyzero wrote:


and i don't think most modulars are overpriced, at least in the euro/5u realm. for $2k you can get a nice 3 oscillator synth ala a minimoog with the added benefits of patchability, modularity, etc. add a cheap midi keyboard and you're there, much cheaper than a used voyager (i'm not saying the voyager is overpriced, it's awesome, just making a point)


Patchability comes at a high price. I don't find any built modular inexpensive. Should it be expensive compared to standalone analog synths?

I'm just saying for arguments sake. I have an asston of modular.
7thDanSound
Everything is overpriced if you don't want to buy it at that price. To some people wine at $1000 a bottle is a bargain while for some it's overpriced. It's fermented grape juice for chrissake! There is no rationale in pricing other than "what am I willing to pay for this". There's always someone who'll tell you you payed too much for whatever you bought. But is that shiny new Lamborghini just transportation or something else?

I say spend less time arguing about this nonsense and more time having fun with what you deemed worth your hard earned, no matter where you chose to put it.
ersatzplanet
These are the same arguments you see in the Apple vs PC debates. Statements about something being "not worth it" or "overpriced". Worth is totally subjective. Sure you can say that modules with the same exact functions but cost quite a bit different make that easier but there are other factors like ergonomics etc that play into the definition of "worth" that are very personal and very different for each player. I can't tell you how many discussions I have had with PC owners telling me that Apple machines are not with it, while they sit there wearing +$100 designer jeans and expensive sneakers and printed tee shirts all 3 times more than I would ever spen on mine. To them those things are "worth it". Not to me.

So when ANYONE says something is not "worth it" they are ALWAYS saying "Not worth it to me" because there is NO OTHER WAY of saying it.
cbm
noobyscooby wrote:
But it is all worth it for me.

Oh... so it's not overpriced.
divisionbyzero
noobyscooby wrote:
divisionbyzero wrote:


and i don't think most modulars are overpriced, at least in the euro/5u realm. for $2k you can get a nice 3 oscillator synth ala a minimoog with the added benefits of patchability, modularity, etc. add a cheap midi keyboard and you're there, much cheaper than a used voyager (i'm not saying the voyager is overpriced, it's awesome, just making a point)


Patchability comes at a high price. I don't find any built modular inexpensive. Should it be expensive compared to standalone analog synths?

with the moog example i'm saying you can make a modular synth with greater functionality than a standalone synth at a better price, as long as patching is something you want (many would and do pay more to avoid it).
Entrainer
ersatzplanet wrote:

So when ANYONE says something is not "worth it" they are ALWAYS saying "Not worth it to me" because there is NO OTHER WAY of saying it.


True. Easy to be dismissive about it though. "Eh, that's just your opinion".
Enough of those opinions add up and it becomes death. The "market" is
a collection of individuals making choices.

Monkey puts hand in jar, grabs a lot of grubs, doesn't want to let go...
monkey gets eaten.

So value may be subjective but reality is objective.
cbm
Entrainer wrote:
reality is objective.

How do you figure? :=)
Entrainer
cbm wrote:
Entrainer wrote:
reality is objective.

How do you figure? :=)


Delusion runs rampant. Good point. :=)
HexEnduction
Entrainer wrote:


$1499

Overpriced.



Sure, if we're talking perceived function versus cost but the dearth of recordings I made with just a Gator/Creature set-up made it worth every penny for me. Every module on there has at least two unique functions depending on the destination so in my opinion it's really not that expensive once you get into the programability level.

On the other hand I spent $1000 on euro and stackables last year and I sent it back to Shawn Cleary after four days with no recordings to show for it. I literally started laughing when I unboxed it because of how chintzy it all was- loose pots, limited range, intermittent jacks, bleed/noise, and the stackables are just plain terrible compared to pomonas. I felt like I had been completely duped. As a matter of fact I have 3u of euro right now in the garage collecting dust and if it wasn't my brothers system I wouldn't think twice about selling it for something useful, like another Gator. Not a value judgement, euro just doesn't grab me in the slightest. But if it knocks other peoples socks off, more power to them.
Entrainer
HexEnduction wrote:

Sure, if we're talking perceived function versus cost but the dearth of recordings I made with just a Gator/Creature set-up made it worth every penny for me.


Fair enough. I can't argue with that.
But are there enough like you in the world to keep it alive? We'll see.
So far, Rex has determined to push prices up instead of down. It'll
be interesting to see the outcome of that decision.

And yes, it guess I can't help a couple people in Wisconsin, but it doesn't
mean I'll be helping a "bean-counter" in Japan. I can spread the wealth
to 30-40 different passionate people making modular synthesizer designs.
They need love too! (as do bean-counters... who else would count them?)
Oldstench
HexEnduction wrote:
loose pots, limited range, intermittent jacks, bleed/noise

Really? I must the luckiest guy on earth then because none of my ~$5000 of euro has any of these problems. hmmm.....

Sounds like you got a bum deal there, buddy.

Disclaimer: I like all formats. Format wars can suck it.
ersatzplanet
Oldstench wrote:
HexEnduction wrote:
loose pots, limited range, intermittent jacks, bleed/noise

Really? I must the luckiest guy on earth then because none of my ~$5000 of euro has any of these problems. hmmm.....

Sounds like you got a bum deal there, buddy.

Disclaimer: I like all formats. Format wars can suck it.


Yeah - one bad run of Cliff jacks and the meme last forever...
HexEnduction
ersatzplanet wrote:


Yeah - one bad run of Cliff jacks and the meme last forever...


Well, the "Rex's stuff is overpriced" meme certainly never dies either. Never had to wiggle a pomona cable to make contact. I like the offerings in euro but the jacks leave much to be desired.
Oldstench
Isn't that more a fault of the cable than the jack? I've had exactly 2 bum cables (one of which was my fault for running it over with my office chair) but all my jacks are solid.
richard
Quote:
one bad run of Cliff jacks


hihi

good one! thumbs up keep on dreaming
HexEnduction
Oldstench wrote:
Isn't that more a fault of the cable than the jack? I've had exactly 2 bum cables (one of which was my fault for running it over with my office chair) but all my jacks are solid.


In some cases that's a real possibility although there are absolutely intermittent jacks on the 3u in the garage, I'm certain of that. Not sure if the jack was loose on one of the modules from AH but there was certainly a lack of cohesion between modules and jacks necessitating a good pile of cables and a pile that required jiggling. The Livewire modules were built exceptionally well with little issue- very pleasing. Not quite as fond of another manufacture, quite revered on this board actually, with a module that had QA issues, bleed and performed poorly. I do realize that each manufacturer has different standards and build quality though. Maybe once you've been through the motions with certain companies it's easier to avoid. But yeah, the cables could be part of the problem and I thought the stackables in particular were terrible- twice as expensive as pomona and half as useful. Maybe I just got a bad batch though.
chrisso
I recently sold my last Serge panel and started a Euro system, which I have been using on recordings since about Christmas.
I own a variety of Euro modules, from a variety of makers, and haven't had one SINGLE technical/quality issue - and this is with daily use.

I think many pages ago someone posted "it's all good, use whatever floats your boat".

The claims of bad quality in Euro are overstated IMHO.
The claims Serge is clearly a class above are also overstated IMHO.
Those are just opinions, but I have spent extensive time on both systems - as well as Buchla, Modcan, Fenix and Vintage Polyfusion.

Something being over priced is an opinion, not really a fact unless you can compare like for like, or you have insider knowledge of the production process.
I run into this point of view with music software from time to time (as someone who has been involved creating music software), and 99.999% of the people claiming the music software I'm associated with is over priced, have no experience or knowledge about how much time and money was spent creating it.
So I don't know how much time and money Rex spends on his Serge panels, therefore i can't say it's over priced.
sascha.victoria
I actually think DIY is the most over priced format of all. When I'm not dealing with the 98 simultaneous tasks of owning / running a small business I'm trying to make as much music as possible, plan my wedding, spend time with the lady, clean the house, go for a hike, see friends, enjoy life, etc... I totally get the satisfaction of building your own stuff and then using it but no thanks. Hook me up with the craftsmen who make the tools I like most to most easily fulfill my vision. If its cheap great! If its expensive then I'll think more before I buy it. Ultimately, if I like it I'll figure it out (BSTing over the years has resulted in some great gear) and I bet you will too.
mb123music
Ok, all the other stuff aside!!! seriously, i just don't get it
Has anyone any info on whats going to be available??? Rockin' Banana!
dougcl
Bottom line it's rude to tell someone that what they just bought is overpriced. It's not done in real life.
calcaarmario
Any news on the original topic???
Cant wait to see some photos, videos, sounds, etc of a Serge Eurorack prototype!!! MY ASS IS BLEEDING
richard
there was a topic?
Nils
richard wrote:
there was a topic?


A whole bunch of them.
mb123music
calcaarmario wrote:
Any news on the original topic???
Cant wait to see some photos, videos, sounds, etc of a Serge Eurorack prototype!!! MY ASS IS BLEEDING



+1 It's peanut butter jelly time! nanners Rockin' Banana! It's motherfucking bacon yo
jeanclaudevanlee
http://sergesynthesizers.com/

There is nothing yet on the website but some people wrote already about published panel designs. Was it taken down already?
hank
jeanclaudevanlee wrote:
http://sergesynthesizers.com/

There is nothing yet on the website but some people wrote already about published panel designs. Was it taken down already?

I don't know about specifics about this line, but Bananalogue did produce a line of serge designs for eurorack (and frac) a few years back that consisted of the VCS, WVX (wave multiplier) and 3P (cv processor). I only have the 3P in my rack but it's solid.
Entrainer
dougcl wrote:
Bottom line it's rude to tell someone that what they just bought is overpriced. It's not done in real life.


Agreed. If it was a friend of mine, I'd be silent, but inside I'd
be hurting for them.

Ideally, I'd have an opportunity to tell them BEFORE, not after.
Lambda
Any news on the topic on this thread?
n0rd
Lambda wrote:
Any news on the topic on this thread?

+1e99
wavehead
any news on controversial opinions about serge and rex that people can argue about more?
sersch
Hopefully not.
numan7
wtf is this thread doing in 'Buchla, EMS & STS' forum anyways?

hihi

cheers
sersch
It's "Buchla, EMS & Serge", not "Buchla, EMS & STS". Harhar.
BHC303
Did this ever happen?
Waz
rayce wrote:
Wonder what Rex thinks about this. Thought that he had some sort of rights to the designs?


If Rex would drop some dough and get a proper website with purchase options, he'd have a lot more orders for Serge. I have lusted after Serge for quite some time. The prospect of having it in euro amazes me.

Calling some random phone number you find on the internet is not a good way to sell synthesizers.
Seracs
---
Waz
Does it work for him? How do we know? I've heard differently.
ndkent
Waz wrote:
Does it work for him? How do we know? I've heard differently.


What I've heard years ago is it's an excellent filter. Calling him he can figure out who needs that extra info to likely order something and who's just collecting info and can email questions that require complex answers
Gringo Starr
I spoke with Rex a few times and I specifically asked him about this. He said "absolutely not". He then went on to speak about complete systems designed to work together as opposed to a bunch of shit thrown together and that he didn't want to be a part of the "mess". Well who really knows for sure? That's just what Rex said to me at that time.
andrewF
rayce wrote:
Wonder what Rex thinks about this. Thought that he had some sort of rights to the designs?


Serge still owns the designs. That is why CGS and Bananalogue (and presumably Doepfer in time) pay royalties to him and not Rex.

As for Rex's arrangement with Serge seriously, i just don't get it , it is their private business. Perhaps it may be fun if we all speculate on that for a while whistlin'
Low-Gain
Rumors guys.. Rumors..
BooleanYulian
I've asked Rex on a few occasions that question and offered to contribute to an STS site.. basically he's absolutely not interested in what other manufacturers are doing and hence, does not see anyone as competition (.. not being part of the mess..).. as far as the orders are concerned, he says there's enough work to keep the entire team happy and busy and is not really interested in going "main stream" as it would compromise the quality and complicate things.. (imagine mass producing panels by hand.. bradding all the wires.. etc..)

.. bottom line is that he prefers to deal with client personally over the phone (or email at worst) and he won't compromise his manufacturing and work standards.. there's also the "if it aint broken, dont fix it" standpoint
cephalopod
If these become available at a reasonable price point, it may be what finally gets me to switch to a euro system.
sempervirent
Was this totally overlooked in the discussion?
https://twitter.com/tiptopaudio/status/274955900211589121

BHC303
I wonder what?
amnesia
I don't think the Seth Serge euro is going to happen any time soon.
sascha.victoria
Wasn't TipTop going to do polyphonic modules?
bertbocklandt
Any news/update on this???

Would love the Serge Wave Multiplier in euro w00t
nordlead
I guess the most likely place to find any updates is here:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=79362
widgetoz
bertbocklandt wrote:
Any news/update on this???

Would love the Serge Wave Multiplier in euro :party:

You can go to my EuroSerge and Panther ES sections of my shop where we have some 23 SERGE modules in 3U format and with 3.5mm OR 4mm jacks :)
Something for EVERYONEPanther modules
widgetoz
mb123music wrote:
calcaarmario wrote:
Any news on the original topic???
Cant wait to see some photos, videos, sounds, etc of a Serge Eurorack prototype!!! :omg:



+1 :banana: :nana: :bananaguitar: :bacon:

Don't have photos of physical systems yet but you can see some of the 'systems' here EuroSerge
and this is the one I am putting together now
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