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odd latency, is it Volta or my Voyager, or what?
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Author odd latency, is it Volta or my Voyager, or what?
revstate
I was noticing some crazy latency when recording my voyager using volta for the cv/gate. 8 1/4notes latency values on a click type sound = 172, 230,166,227,161,223,287,225 (samples @ 44.1). But... when i recorded the gate directly from the volta using the 2408MKII and recording it into logic via my ensemble, the latency was 24 samples every time, no matter what... as in sample accurate.

my question, why the crazy latency values from the voyager?

thanks


bp
revstate
oh yeah, running an i/o buffer of 64
1nput0utput
revstate wrote:
when i recorded the gate directly from the volta using the 2408MKII and recording it into logic via my ensemble, the latency was 24 samples every time, no matter what...

When you loop a cable from 2408mkII output to Ensemble input, the recorded track is consistently 24 samples behind the beat? That sounds about right, and I think it means that Volta and the 2408mkII are not causing the problem.
doctorvague
Man that's a real head-scratcher!
The only explanation I can come up with is that you're not getting enough voltage to reliably trigger the Voyager, for whatever reason.
What is the nominal gate voltage the Voyager is wanting to see? It is looking for a positive gate voltage and not S-Trig, is that correct?
Do you have scope to see what you're getting out of your interface? Short of that, if you get a longer gate going out of Volta (trigger sequencer with long duration at a slow tempo) perhaps you could measure it with a multimeter.
Are you using a TRS cable as talked about in other threads? I tried a TS cable the other day, and theoretically it should have worked (with some long term risk to the output circuitry) but it wouldn't work at all in my case (a 24io).

One more suggestion is, if you have any module that has voltage gain, i.e. more than unity, try amplifying the gate a moderate amount before hitting the Voyager. Just one more way of proving or disproving the theory that it's just not getting enough voltage. If it's not that then I can't imagine what else the problem might be.

As a last ditch effort I would try using the trigger sequencer instead of a CV/Gate voice and adjust the durations and see if that makes any difference at all.

One last thought - is there any chance you're sending more than one signal, or accidentally sending audio or whatever else to that same output you're using for a gate out? That would definitely cause some confusion for the Voyager! Again a scope would tell you that right away. Do you have a friend with a scope, perhaps? I guess if you've recorded the gate back in and can see the signal then that theory has already been disproved...

Good luck, and please let us know if/when you get this figured out, it may help someone else down the road.

Cheers
Phil
felix
Are you sure it's not the ensemble? Many interfaces do not report the latency of their A/D along with their driver latency (based on buffer size) to the host, so therefore it's not corrected/compensated when the audio is recorded.

This is why most DAWs have that additional recording delay parameter in their audio setup preferences.

I suggest you try doing a similar test using Midi to trigger a note on the voyager and see if you have a similar offset. It might not be exactly 24 samples, as MIDI has some considerable slop to it, but if you see the same thing things, I suggest playing with the recording delay...I forget what logic calls it, but it's there, it's a horizontal slider right below where you choose I/O and Process Buffer sizes.
revstate
felix wrote:
Are you sure it's not the ensemble? Many interfaces do not report the latency of their A/D along with their driver latency (based on buffer size) to the host, so therefore it's not corrected/compensated when the audio is recorded.

This is why most DAWs have that additional recording delay parameter in their audio setup preferences.

I suggest you try doing a similar test using Midi to trigger a note on the voyager and see if you have a similar offset. It might not be exactly 24 samples, as MIDI has some considerable slop to it, but if you see the same thing things, I suggest playing with the recording delay...I forget what logic calls it, but it's there, it's a horizontal slider right below where you choose I/O and Process Buffer sizes.


I am not worried by the 24 sample delay, as I assumed it was just the recording latency from the Ensemble. My worry is why the gate from the voyager is so slow to respond, and is not sample accurate (or even close), but the output of volta via the 2408MKII is.
revstate
doctorvague wrote:
What is the nominal gate voltage the Voyager is wanting to see? It is looking for a positive gate voltage and not S-Trig, is that correct?


+5 gate i believe, but the voyager manual does not say.

doctorvague wrote:
Do you have scope to see what you're getting out of your interface? Short of that, if you get a longer gate going out of Volta (trigger sequencer with long duration at a slow tempo) perhaps you could measure it with a multimeter.


using a multimeter, i see around 2.4 to 2.6 volts. i have no scope U_U


doctorvague wrote:
Are you using a TRS cable as talked about in other threads? I tried a TS cable the other day, and theoretically it should have worked (with some long term risk to the output circuitry) but it wouldn't work at all in my case (a 24io).


i am using the floating trs to ts cable (as suggested) going to a patch bay, then from the patch bay to the voyager i am using standard ts to ts.


doctorvague wrote:
One more suggestion is, if you have any module that has voltage gain, i.e. more than unity, try amplifying the gate a moderate amount before hitting the Voyager. Just one more way of proving or disproving the theory that it's just not getting enough voltage. If it's not that then I can't imagine what else the problem might be.


i tried upping the voltage from 2.5ish to 5ish using my cp251's cv mixer, and the voyager didn't even respond. not until i brought it back under 3 did it start responding, and the timing was still off.

doctorvague wrote:
As a last ditch effort I would try using the trigger sequencer instead of a CV/Gate voice and adjust the durations and see if that makes any difference at all.


i tried using the trigger sequencer, and the time of the beginning of the wave for each triggered note was still moving around, just like using the voice outs.

doctorvague wrote:
One last thought - is there any chance you're sending more than one signal, or accidentally sending audio or whatever else to that same output you're using for a gate out?


the only thing going out of my motu interface is volta signals, and the only signal on that channel is the gate.

do other people have a voyager and volta on this forum? if so could you check out your timing results for me? i just hope i don't have a bad voyager. also, i cannot test any other cv/gate devices until i get my model 101 back.

i am bummed about this U_U waah waah
felix
ah, I see now. Sorry, I completely misread your first post.

That is weird. I can't imagine that the Voyager would somehow have some internal latency, let alone that much, from an analog gate signal.
revstate
felix wrote:
ah, I see now. Sorry, I completely misread your first post.

That is weird. I can't imagine that the Voyager would somehow have some internal latency, let alone that much, from an analog gate signal.


i know, it's so fricken weird!
doctorvague
First off, thanks for answering the points in my post. I ran across something comparable triggering the Monopoly. I was using computer generated pulses from audio (poor-man's Volta). The trigger pulse timing was dead on, just like Volta since no MIDI was involved, but I did notice the Monopoly arpeggiator notes out varied a bit. Turns out it's just the internal Korg processor timing variances I was seeing as it was calculating the arpeggio info. I don't think it was anywhere close to what you're seeing as far as timing slop, but I'd have to look back and see.


Quote:
i tried upping the voltage from 2.5ish to 5ish using my cp251's cv mixer, and the voyager didn't even respond. not until i brought it back under 3 did it start responding, and the timing was still off.


I thought everyone was at least getting 4.5V triggers/gates from Volta using a +4db balanced out MOTU interface. But why is the Moog crapping out with 5V triggers?? That doesn't make any sense at all. Is there some setting buried in a menu somewhere that would change it from Positive trigger to S-Trig? It would make sense that Moog would include that as an option to connect with legacy Moog gear. If it were me I'd bypass the patch bay just to eliminate that variable.

According to your figures you have a timing variance of almost 3ms (2.857). If the Voyager is running triggers through a processor rather than directly triggering envelopes, that would probably account for that. Only their tech support or someone who really knows the guts of the Voyager would know for sure.

The voltage thing above is still strange though....
Perhaps Stretta will chime in regarding the low voltage out of your interface. That part doesn't seem right to me.
1nput0utput
doctorvague wrote:
Perhaps Stretta will chime in regarding the low voltage out of your interface. That part doesn't seem right to me.

According to the Volta manual, the 2408mkII's various analog outputs are capable of producing around ±2.6VDC. So if you're measuring a trigger or gate voltage, you would see 0VDC when the trigger or gate is closed and ~+2.6VDC when it is open.
revstate
1nput0utput wrote:
doctorvague wrote:
Perhaps Stretta will chime in regarding the low voltage out of your interface. That part doesn't seem right to me.

According to the Volta manual, the 2408mkII's various analog outputs are capable of producing around ±2.6VDC. So if you're measuring a trigger or gate voltage, you would see 0VDC when the trigger or gate is closed and ~+2.6VDC when it is open.


yes ^_^
revstate
So a big ahhhh, that's why.... from me when talking with Amos from Moog. The gate on the Voyager goes to the egs, then it goes through the digital portion of the Voyager. This was something new to Amos, as this was the first time that he had looked at the schematics for the voyager to see the gates path. This creates the lag that I am seeing when triggering the Voyager via Volta. Then, on top of that the gate in for the Voyager is not V-trig or S-trig... it is (from what I can understand with my limited knowledge on circuit design) a combination of both. The gate in is actually designed for a foot switch, not a sequencer. So, from what I understand, you need +2.6 to trigger the gate, and then it needs to go below zero for the full release. seriously, i just don't get it I think....

Anyways, Jared from Future Retro designed a circuit to make standard V-trig work with the Voyager's Gate in.

Here is the quote from Amos from my email:

Quote:
Hi Ben,

this is a little circuit that Jered from Future Retro cooked up in response to a discussion we were having about the Voyager's funny gate triggering behavior. Try building one and see if it does anything useful for you...

Quote:
Jered writes:
"Alright, what you would need is 2x 3904 transistors, and say 5x 10k resistors wired as indicated in the attached picture. The positive voltage could be +5, +10, +12, or +15... or you could just use a 9volt battery."


Cheers,

Amos


and here is the circuit diagram:


doctorvague
Wow - who'd have thought all that??
Thanks for posting. This will probably help someone down the road.
I'm trying to wrap my head around the combo Positive-S trigger, and was that the best solution Moog could come up with? 5V triggers are pretty standard these days. And why would you design a gate input NOT able to be used with a sequencer??

Jared's a good one - not surprised he came up with a solution thumbs up
revstate
yeah, oddness indeed

Jared is really cool. I just wish that I liked the XS more. I thought it would be perfect, but it just didn't fit any of our songs. I could be thinking this, but the satanist in me also doesn't like it when everyone else gets or does the same thing.


I am glad that someone referred me to this forum, you guys are all really nice!

thanks especially to you dr. vague !

ben.p.
revstate,com
delcosmos
Mr. Green
revstate
has anyone made the circuit? i was hoping stretta might have since he owns a voyager
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