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system 100 model 101 gate/trig does not work with volta
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Volta  
Author system 100 model 101 gate/trig does not work with volta
revstate
I can gate in the model 101 fine with the voyager's gate out. Volta via the 2408mkII does not work to trigger the gate. Calibration works fine though. ^_^

The 2 reasons that I purchased Volta:

to control my voyager (not able to, read other thread)

to control my model 101 when i got it

i can do neither of these things with volta, so i am shit out of luck MY ASS IS BLEEDING Dead Banana
ndkent
I've not checked what the threshold is on the gate for triggering it is but I have checked the gate out on a Sys 100 101 and it's around 13.5v out. It's obviously at or below what your moog is putting out and more than your MOTU interface does.

I'm sure one could get a mixer that works with multiple voltages (Moog CP-251 !) or something with an input and an adjustable offset (Moog CP-251 can do that too) then either offset what you have or feed it into two mixer inputs and you should have enough coming out to trigger the 101.
1nput0utput
I recall that someone had it working well with a System 100.

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5388&highlight=syste m+100

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5322&highlight=syste m+100

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5314&highlight=syste m+100
ndkent
1nput0utput wrote:
I recall that someone had it working well with a System 100.


At least the first thread is about Sys 100m, that's a newer generation of Roland that likely has a 5v or so gate. Some 70s gear shoots for a +15v gate. The 2408 mk3 supposedly does 4.6v. The poster may possibly have that attenuated a bit unintentionally, but more likely the triggering threshold is above 4.6v and below what that Voyager puts out and the goal is to add an offset that will be ignored until the Volta gate gets added to it, or perhaps use a DC mixer with gain if you have one or feed the gate in 2 or 3 times to boost it... though a synth mixer will likely limit the max voltage coming out of itself at a certain point to protect your modules. Anyway see what your Moog puts out. You know that will be enough.

When I get the time I might try to find out exactly how much it takes to trigger a Sys 100 unit. It's probably useful info.
revstate
1nput0utput wrote:
I recall that someone had it working well with a System 100.

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5388&highlight=syste m+100

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5322&highlight=syste m+100

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5314&highlight=syste m+100


yeah, this is all 100m and 700 advice, not 100 model 101
revstate
ndkent wrote:
Some 70s gear shoots for a +15v gate. The 2408 mk3 supposedly does 4.6v. The poster may possibly have that attenuated a bit unintentionally, but more likely the triggering threshold is above 4.6v and below what that Voyager puts out and the goal is to add an offset that will be ignored until the Volta gate gets added to it, or perhaps use a DC mixer with gain if you have one or feed the gate in 2 or 3 times to boost it... though a synth mixer will likely limit the max voltage coming out of itself at a certain point to protect your modules. Anyway see what your Moog puts out. You know that will be enough.

When I get the time I might try to find out exactly how much it takes to trigger a Sys 100 unit. It's probably useful info.


i am using a mkII not a mk3

will a mk3 actually work?

i tried using my cp251 to gain up the gate signal, but it's still not up to 5.6 (the voltage of the voyager gate). also, when i use the voyager to gate the model 101, the volume coming out is -20, when i play it from the model 101's keyboard the volume is 0.

also, to add to the fun and odd and shit luck i have, the ext. env in with an envelope from volta kinda works. BUT!... it only puts out enough voltage to barely open the vco, and barely move the filter.

i tested the gate out from the model 101, and it's +15v WTF!!!!!

i'm so fucked

it's not volta's fault, or the interface's fault... it's my f'ing fault for not researching the system 100 before i bought it, and for not calling moog to find out about the gate input.

now i have volta, which is cool, but doesn't work with either of my synths, and a model 101 that i can't sequence in my daw.

a lesson for everyone, research before you buy ^_^
sb
I had this same problem years ago with a System 100 and Frostwave Fat Controller which only puts out +5v gates and the System 100 needs around +10v I believe. I think I ended up using a Blacet mixer/processor to offset the voltage as someone else suggested.

Another possible workaround mentioned by Paul Perry (Frostwave) was to bump up the gate by running a couple of batteries in series with the gate lead. Maybe this would work for you....perhaps search the AH archives for 'Frostwave' and 'System 100'.

Simon
revstate
the cp251 can get the volta gate signal up to 8.6ish, but when i have the offset and the master and the input turned up all of the way, the model 101 acts like it never received the note off gate signal. it just turns the gate on and the gate never turns off until you unplug it or turn the offset down to almost no increase in voltage. what's up with that?
doctorvague
revstate wrote:
the cp251 can get the volta gate signal up to 8.6ish, but when i have the offset and the master and the input turned up all of the way, the model 101 acts like it never received the note off gate signal. it just turns the gate on and the gate never turns off until you unplug it or turn the offset down to almost no increase in voltage. what's up with that?


The problem is using the offset. You need a signal that drops back to 0V or close and with offset it's not doing that. I won't go into technicalities here.

Try this: Mult the Volta gate out to 3 inputs of cp251 mixer. Turn all three mixer knobs all the way up and set the offset to zero. If you have a way to measure at that point, measure your output voltage from the cp251. If it's less than 10V then do a 4th mult and 4th mixer input. I bet this will work. Basically you need about 3X gain (maybe more) for the Volta gate but NO offset. The offset is what is causing the 100m to stay on rather than turn off when the gate is released.

Don't give up - this can be solved! And can't you solve the Voyager issue with Jared's circuit? (referring to another thread here). That's a actually a much different issue than the 101-which simply needs more level. Blame Moog for that one, I say! Can't believe they designed it where a standard 5V gate from any analog sequencer doesn't work. hmmm.....
revstate
doctorvague wrote:
revstate wrote:
the cp251 can get the volta gate signal up to 8.6ish, but when i have the offset and the master and the input turned up all of the way, the model 101 acts like it never received the note off gate signal. it just turns the gate on and the gate never turns off until you unplug it or turn the offset down to almost no increase in voltage. what's up with that?


The problem is using the offset. You need a signal that drops back to 0V or close and with offset it's not doing that. I won't go into technicalities here.

Try this: Mult the Volta gate out to 3 inputs of cp251 mixer. Turn all three mixer knobs all the way up and set the offset to zero. If you have a way to measure at that point, measure your output voltage from the cp251. If it's less than 10V then do a 4th mult and 4th mixer input. I bet this will work. Basically you need about 3X gain (maybe more) for the Volta gate but NO offset. The offset is what is causing the 100m to stay on rather than turn off when the gate is released.

Don't give up - this can be solved! And can't you solve the Voyager issue with Jared's circuit? (referring to another thread here). That's a actually a much different issue than the 101-which simply needs more level. Blame Moog for that one, I say! Can't believe they designed it where a standard 5V gate from any analog sequencer doesn't work. hmmm.....



is the offset for bringing + levels to - and vice versa?

so i had to use six mult ports because the 251 and the 351 only have 4x mults. ^_^

that got me up to over 11v, which triggers the envelope, but only the attack and release work. i think i need the full 15v to make the envelope work properly.
suitandtieguy
there is some DC blocking going on somewhere in your chain.
revstate
suitandtieguy wrote:
there is some DC blocking going on somewhere in your chain.


something with 251 i guess

is there a module out there that i can gain 2.6v up to 15v ?

btw, i love the way your modules logos look, and i love the name "post lawsuit filter"

i have no idea how they sound, because i went semi modular first (guessing now, 5U was what i should have done to begin with)
revstate
oh, also

instead of getting volta to gain up to 15v, can i mod the model 101 for 5v ?
ndkent
I still haven't gotten around to fooling with mine, though for what it's worth my 101's gate out was definitely under 15, not that much though.

You can of course use standard Hosa type Y cables to make a mult to 2 places, obviously though don't expect to use a mult as an adder of voltages. It's not going to work properly, you need a DC capable mixer.

There's little documentation but I suspect some mixers are going to intentionally limit the voltage out at a certain point to prevent a crazy patch that might fry other modules. And then surely some active designs can't deliver as an output more than their own operating power, which might be a good guess why something doesn't work as expected.

revstate said "is the offset for bringing + levels to - and vice versa? " - the answer is no, you are describing an inverter. Offset simply adds the number of volts to whats there . If you have a +5v offset that means +4 coming in gets you 9v, 0 coming in gets you +5v out and -4 coming in gets you +1v out.

I still don't understand if you were getting the Voyager to trigger the 101 then why are you shooing for 15v?
doctorvague
revstate wrote:


is the offset for bringing + levels to - and vice versa?


Functionally it's more for getting signals in range if they're out of range of what you want but your description is basically correct.

I just looked at the cp251 manual and it states that nominal output voltage range of the cp251 mixer is plus or minus 5V. Also the offset knob on the cp251 is plus or minus so that should be at 12:00 for what you're trying to do, (no offset) but that's a moot point as it seems the cp251 is not capable of doing what you need, according to Moog. I'm pretty sure a Blacet mixer would work but there's no way to test that theory.

My last post was incorrect in that I keep thinking you're starting with around 5V and you've actually only got 2.6V from Volta. So your results make sense.

When you said earlier that you got the attack and release working - are you sure you're sending a gate (that stays high during the note) and not a trigger? Big difference. I realize you probably know that already, but it's worth asking just in case. Other than that I'm fresh out of ideas o help you.

With Volta putting out these low gate and trigger voltages (at least with some interfaces) I suspect we'll see quite a few of these "Volta won't trigger my____________!" threads in the coming months...
revstate
ndkent wrote:
I still haven't gotten around to fooling with mine, though for what it's worth my 101's gate out was definitely under 15, not that much though.

You can of course use standard Hosa type Y cables to make a mult to 2 places, obviously though don't expect to use a mult as an adder of voltages. It's not going to work properly, you need a DC capable mixer.

There's little documentation but I suspect some mixers are going to intentionally limit the voltage out at a certain point to prevent a crazy patch that might fry other modules. And then surely some active designs can't deliver as an output more than their own operating power, which might be a good guess why something doesn't work as expected.

revstate said "is the offset for bringing + levels to - and vice versa? " - the answer is no, you are describing an inverter. Offset simply adds the number of volts to whats there . If you have a +5v offset that means +4 coming in gets you 9v, 0 coming in gets you +5v out and -4 coming in gets you +1v out.

I still don't understand if you were getting the Voyager to trigger the 101 then why are you shooing for 15v?



ah.. thank you

it seems that offset just adds in voltage, and that is why the gate never "closes", because it is for something more constant, like amplifying an LFO.

about triggering the model 101 with the voyager, i am trying to get to 15v because the voyagers gate signal makes a -20db sound come from the model 101, where as from the 101's keyboard, the volume is at or around 0db.

thanks ^_^

ben
revstate
doctorvague wrote:


as it seems the cp251 is not capable of doing what you need, according to Moog. I'm pretty sure a Blacet mixer would work but there's no way to test that theory.



i guess that i am going to need to investigate the blacet mixer and a frac rack power supply / enclosure (anyone have any up for sale cheap? ^_^).

doctorvague wrote:
My last post was incorrect in that I keep thinking you're starting with around 5V and you've actually only got 2.6V from Volta. So your results make sense.


yeah, sorry for not clarifying that my 2408 mkII only produces 2.6v max.

doctorvague wrote:
When you said earlier that you got the attack and release working - are you sure you're sending a gate (that stays high during the note) and not a trigger? Big difference. I realize you probably know that already, but it's worth asking just in case. Other than that I'm fresh out of ideas o help you.


i tried with both a trigger and a gate, in both the trigger port on the back of the system 100 and the gate input on the front next to the adsr. no difference? seriously, i just don't get it

doctorvague wrote:
With Volta putting out these low gate and trigger voltages (at least with some interfaces) I suspect we'll see quite a few of these "Volta won't trigger my____________!" threads in the coming months...


yeah, i think that a lot of people should go for the mk3 used on ebay instead of the mkII. but now i am out of money from selling synths and my twinfinity, so i don't know when i will be able to get some fractional rack stuff or upgrading to the mk3.

also, i haven't had any time to make and test jared's cable. U_U I hope i can get the parts for it from radio shack or the other local electronics store.

all of this, and bonnie and i still need to finish vox and art for our new record. busy, busy i guess ^_^
revstate
also, you guys have been great!

thank you!
revstate
ndkent wrote:
I still don't understand if you were getting the Voyager to trigger the 101 then why are you shooing for 15v?


i just tried the voyager with the model 101, and it as well does not trigger the decay and sustain, only the attack and release. i don't know enough about cv to make any sense of this.
huh?
revstate
i'll never find out, due to financial reasons i had to return it

thankfully the seller was kind enough to understand my situation

it's just the voyager the foogers to work with volta now.
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