Octane - MaxForLive step sequencer

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Defn
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Post by Defn » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:37 pm

tasty!!!

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leeski
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Post by leeski » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:58 pm

loookiinn grrrrrrr8 :mrgreen:

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yghartsyrt
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Post by yghartsyrt » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:54 am

Just wow. This looks absolutely amazing. When is the eta?

Valery_Kondakoff
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Post by Valery_Kondakoff » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:59 am

OK. Have quick-tested the previous HPS-Octane Sequencer build (0.93). Here are my comments which may (or may be not) useful for a developer: mainly a limitations. I hope many of them are already fixed in the 1.0 build!

1. There is no visual representation of the currently selected loop length for a sequencer. I’m pretty sure the Memory Row may be used for this.
2. There is no easy way to initialize (set the sequenced values: notes, gate, repeat etc) to predefined state: all down, all in the middle, all up etc.
3. There is no ‘drunk’ mode in the Sequencer play mode menu: form time to time this mode may be useful, when you want a gradually changing randomness.
4. Important one: the Note and Octave sequencers have only positive values, so I should transpose MIDI notes to be able to set negative steps: say, 2 semitones down or 1 octave down.
5. Another one important issue: as far as I understand there is no way to define a probability value for all of the random functions: say, I want this note to be played an octave higher in 10% of cases. It seems right now Octane uses some default probability (around 50%?).

HTH!

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Post by hpsounds » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:34 am

removed as a protest ... after the SANITARY action :-(

Hédi K.
Last edited by hpsounds on Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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hpsounds
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Post by hpsounds » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:18 pm

removed as a protest ... after the SANITARY action :-(

Hédi K.
Last edited by hpsounds on Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ignatius
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Post by ignatius » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:40 pm

this is going to be a great suite of sequencers :yay: :hyper:

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hpsounds
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Post by hpsounds » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:44 pm

removed as a protest ... after the SANITARY action :-(

Hédi K.

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hpsounds
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Post by hpsounds » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:29 pm

First, sorry for being a bit upset during the past few weeks (see my last posts above ...).

Second, since I've updated to Live 9/9.1 and Max/MaxForLive 6.1.5, I've found a very annoying and strange behavior in my MaxForLive sequencers, and so need your help for some simple testing.

My sequencers are using the Max [preset] object to switch presets on the fly using MIDI Program Change included in clips (in session view).

These MaxForLive devices work perfectly, especially when switching presets in realtime with MIDI Program Change included in clips, in Live v8.4.3. These same exact devices produce random audio clicks/glitches when sending MIDI Program Change for switching presets, even if I change the buffer size from 128 samples to 512 samples.If I just click on the memorized presets in the [preset] object, there are NO audio click/glitches. It seems that the problem is in the Program Change. Did Ableton the Program Change function when they have rebuilt Live 9 ?

In my MaxForLive device, I'm using the [midiselect] object for filtering the raw MIDI datas coming from the [midiin] object. I've also tried to use the [pgmin] and [pgmout] objects with the same audio clicks/glitches results ...

In both cases, my MaxForLive devices are sending MIDI datas to Operator or Sampler - the behavior remains the same whatever Live software instruments are used. I didn't test it with VST plug-ins and/or external instruments.

You can download below a Live 9/9.1 session which includes the last version of hps-octane and hps-kgen. Each of these sequencers is driving a live instrument by sending MIDI datas. To run the sequencers, just click on the MIDI clips of each track. These MIDI clips contain MIDI notes (one is used as a reset, and the other one as a clock/trig), and a MIDI Program Change (101 to 125) that is supposed to switch from preset 1 to 25.

Can you please try this Live set and tell me if you have these audio click/glitches while switching presets with a MIDI clip containing Program Change ? Try also to click directely on the black dots of the [preset] object.

Thanks for your help ! :hail: Takk fyrir hjálpína à islensku Image

BTW, I'm about to close definitely my PayPal account because of an administrative PayPal mess between Iceland and France ... :bang: ... these MaxForLive devices will be "postcardwares" :hihi: ... if you like them, send me a nice postcard ! I will be like traveling around the world ! :boat:

Hédi
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Valery_Kondakoff
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Post by Valery_Kondakoff » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:15 am

1. I'm receiving 'urn Illegal size 0' message in Max window when opening hps-kgen or hps-octane for editing (Max 6.1.6 x64).
2. Ableton Live 9.1 (x64, MacOS X 10.9.1) just hangs when I'm trying to launch scenes from your project
3. I can launch clips (not scenes) though. There are no clicks when switching presets (via MIDI or manually). There are some clicks when switching clips, but this is because the clips are set to Legato with 16th quantization.

HTH!

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hpsounds
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Post by hpsounds » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:57 am

Thanks for checking it ! :tu:
Valery_Kondakoff wrote:1. I'm receiving 'urn Illegal size 0' message in Max window when opening hps-kgen or hps-octane for editing (Max 6.1.6 x64).
That's "kind of" normal : I have to check later the [urn] object's initialization. I don't think that it is the source of the problems.
Valery_Kondakoff wrote:2. Ableton Live 9.1 (x64, MacOS X 10.9.1) just hangs when I'm trying to launch scenes from your project
Sorry, I don't really understand what you have said here (I'm french btw ... :hihi: ).
Valery_Kondakoff wrote:3. I can launch clips (not scenes) though. There are no clicks when switching presets (via MIDI or manually). There are some clicks when switching clips, but this is because the clips are set to Legato with 16th quantization.
Setting the clips' quantization to 16th is intentional. The idea is to allow quantized (here it is 16th) sync presets' switching. It used to work flawlessly in Live 8.4.3 + Max 5.1.9 , even when using several instances of these devices, including full Lemur/OSC remote control (which is gone atm). I've always assumed that the MIDI Program Change included in MIDI clips (that's the only way to do it in Live) is sent just a few milliseconds before the proper (in sync) clip start, allowing the device to switch to an other preset just before receiving the next MIDI note that is used as a sequencer trigger.

I have the feeling to get screwed now : it used to work, but since Live 9 (which, IMO, has been completely rewritten) it's kind of broken. I don't really use MIDI clips in a traditional way (meaning to play rhythms or melodic sequences), but mainly as a way to remote trigger MaxForLive MIDI sequencers or external modular sequencers. If I can't do that my setup is broken ...

:bang: :mad: :twisted:

My only way atm is to switch back to Live 8 and Max 5 (pfff ... they are still on my computer), but I'm now used to Live 9 enhancement, new projects only exist in Live 9. What a mess ... just when I thought that my hybrid setup was stabilized. F*&$k !

:confused: :doh:


Hédi K.

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Post by dBlicious » Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:54 am

I do get clicks when I trigger sometimes, but might that be from changing presets while a note is sustaining/decaying? Maybe Abes changed this behavior from 8 to 9? I never tested that in either version so I can't really say.

I did manage to crash Live consistently when triggering clips in moderately quick succession. M4L isn't the most stable for me so that might just be my setup.

OS 10.7.5
Live 9.1 32bit
Max 6.1.6

btw, really awesome stuff! :tu:

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hpsounds
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Post by hpsounds » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:31 pm

Thanks for taking the time testing these devices ! :tu:

Yesterday evening, I had some feedbacks from the Ableton team. They tried my devices and had the exact same problems. They told me that they will consult with their Max specialists and hopefully they can resolve this. Fingers crossed ...

:hail:
dBlicious wrote:I do get clicks when I trigger sometimes, but might that be from changing presets while a note is sustaining/decaying? Maybe Abes changed this behavior from 8 to 9? I never tested that in either version so I can't really say.
The datas from notes contained in clips which are used as reset and trig for the sequencers are just the NOTE ON, so from a MIDI point of view there is not evident connection between sustained notes and preset switching. An other point is that switching presets directly from the [preset] object interface is perfectly fine, even when a note is already playing or switching presets like crazy. I think the problem is the way MIDI Program Change datas are handled now in Live 9. Also, the MIDI Program Change interface included in clips has been changed in Live 9. I really hope that the Ableton team will help me on this (imo, it's a tiny bug in Live and/or MaxForLive).
dBlicious wrote:I did manage to crash Live consistently when triggering clips in moderately quick succession. M4L isn't the most stable for me so that might just be my setup.

OS 10.7.5
Live 9.1 32bit
Max 6.1.6
I'm a bit surprised about you crashing Live/MaxForLive while triggering clips in moderately quick succession ...

:hmm: :despair:

I've never crashed Live/MaxForLive when doing MIDI patching. It only happens once in a while when doing audio stuffs (I don't trust the audio part of MaxForLive ...).

Here is my work/programing environment:
OSX 10.6.8 (still ... :hihi: )
Live 9.1 32 bit
Max 6.1.5 32 bit

Thanks again !

Hédi

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Post by Valery_Kondakoff » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:41 am

I'm experiencing crashes as well. There is a quick raise of CPU usage (~20%) when starting clips from your project. Maybe this causes the crash when you rapidly start several clips at once?
Notice, please: there is _no_ CPU raise (and no crashes) when you start the same clips with hps-octane and hps-kgen turned off. As far as I understand this means the quick CPU usage increase is caused by your M4L devices.

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Post by hpsounds » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:10 am

@ Valery_Kondakoff
I'm very surprised about your crash, because my devices never crash neither Live nor Max on my computer. I'm also very surprise about the CPU raise too ! :despair:

Did you try to switch presets quickly by just clicking on the [preset] object ? When I'm using the [preset] object, I don't have any audio glitches on Live 9/9.1 . I'm personally suspecting a problem in the way the MIDI Program Change are handled in Live 9/9.1 ...

BTW, I'm forwarding this topic to Ableton team to let them know about these crashes.

Many thanks for your help ! :tu:

H.

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Post by defenestration » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:30 pm

this is the only Max for Live sequencer that I've torn apart that creates perfectly accurate MIDI data when recording the MIDI output into Ableton, even the mono sequencer Stretta wrote for Live 9 M4L has a slight latency when re-sampling the MIDI data it creates (zoom in on the MIDI and you'll see what I mean).

I have to assume you're aware of this, given that yours puts the MIDI data in exactly the right spot, so how did you do it? I've dug into your implementation and I can't seem to figure out what you're doing that's fundamentally different?

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hpsounds
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Post by hpsounds » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:32 pm

During the first development period of these sequencers, I was only using the objects allowing me to pipe sync informations directly from Live. After several tests, it happened that the sync was not very accurate. Then, I've got the idea to transpose the analog sequencer concepts of trigger and reset in these devices by simply using one note as a reset and an other one as a trigger, both of these notes can be played by MIDI clips, sticking nicely to Ableton Live clip paradigm, or by any MIDI controllers which can send MIDI notes. After some tests, the timing accuracy was way better. An unexpected way of using these sequencers appeared from using a MIDI clip for resetting and triggering the devices : you can now start and stop any sequencers as you like by just using MIDI clips. You can also embed MIDI Program Change (... still a problem in Live 9/9.1 ...) and/or parameters' automations in these clips.

:guinness:

An other side effect of this is that now I'm not using Silent Ways sync plug-in to sync my analog sequencers but SW "trigger" plug-in (I don't remember its name, it's the one to use for triggering drums modules) and a MIDI clip with one note used as a reset and an other one used as a trigger : it's more accurate and stable, I can start and stop various analog sequencers by just triggering MIDI clips. I'm also using this method to build custom clock dividers/multipliers.

An other thing to keep in mind is that I try, as much as possible, to take into account the right-to-left/up-to-down graphical layout process of MAX, it's specially important when developing MIDI devices. If this way of doing is skipped, some calculated datas might appear on the next clock ... With this same consideration, the 2 MIDI controller' sequencers output their datas before a note is sent by the device, which, imo, is the right way to send MIDI datas to virtual or real MIDI equipments.

H.

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Post by hpsounds » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:38 pm

After several technical exchange with both Ableton team and C74 team, they advised me to test de-prioritizing the MIDI Program Change message ... and it seems to work now !

:hyper:

Here is what it's said in Max documentation about the [defer] and [deferlow] objects:

"Defers the output of all messages sent through it to the lower priority main thread. This is most applicable when using Overdrive mode."

"The deferlow object places all incoming messages at the tail of the low priority queue. This is unlike the defer object, however, which places high priority messages at the front of the low priority queue, and passes low priority messages immediately. The deferlow object is useful to preserve message sequencing that might otherwise be reversed with the defer object and/or guarantee that an incoming message will be deferred to a future servicing of the low priority queue even if that message is low priority itself."


To say the truth, I think that in older versions of my sequencers, the ones with full OSC and/or launchPad support, I used to put a [deferlow] object between the received MIDI Program Change and the [preset] object. If I remember precisly, I've removed the [deferlow] object in front of the preset [object] while removing the OSC/LaunchPad remote codes.

:doh: :oops: :hide:

To keep the code on the performance side, I've now put a [defer] object before the [preset] object. After several test tonight, the audio glitches seem to have disappeared, and the CPU spikes too. You can download below an new Live set which contains the updated versions of hps-octane and hps-kgen. Note that I still have to do some minor code changes, so it's now the released versions.

Please try them and report here if it's better or worst ...

Thanks again for your help ! :tu:

Hédi
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accountboy
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Post by accountboy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:08 am

I need to get into this.

Just one thing I'm trying to understand: setting up for use with an ES-3, do I still use any of the Expert Sleeper plugins? :hmm:

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Post by hpsounds » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:18 am

These sequencers are only generating MIDI datas so you will still need to use the Expert Sleepers plug-in to use it with your ES-3 module.

H.

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Post by accountboy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:09 am

hpsounds wrote:These sequencers are only generating MIDI datas so you will still need to use the Expert Sleepers plug-in to use it with your ES-3 module.

H.
Thanks. So this and SW Voice Controller. Ok cool. Thanks.

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Post by accountboy » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:53 pm

I'm on Live 9.0.6 and hps-ocatane is not outputting midi.
hps-kgen is working.

Silly question: what controls which note is played? I only see the option for inputting octave value.

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Post by th0mas » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:56 am

Necrobump

Hpsounds, what ever happened to this project? I've been dreaming of a max4live cirklon clone using my push2 - the screen and 8 knobs would be perfect for adjusting step parameters.

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