Serge Filters

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

Moderators: Kent, luketeaford, lisa, Joe.

User avatar
negativspace
Manhattan Analog
Posts: 6576
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:50 am
Location: Manhattan, KS, USA
Contact:

Post by negativspace » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:24 pm

Funky40 wrote:how is the CGS Serge 1973 SVF ?
is that the one from the serge line you would choose today ?
having this is having "the serge VCF sound" ?
It's excellent. Very excellent. As for how it compares to the Vari-Q or Vari-slope modules, I have no idea. My Serge experience is barely above 0.

It will certainly give you "a Serge VCF sound." :hihi:
Also, hey wigglers! Good to be aboard, been reading for a long time, you guys are the best synth resource out there! Finally, sorry for potential typos, typed from the phone
Great first post - welcome to Muff's! :bacon:

User avatar
Funky40
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 5902
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:08 pm
Location: on a big voyage

Post by Funky40 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:24 pm

thanks negativspace !
some motivation for funky40 to finish that 4/5 populated CGS 1973 serge :hihi: ...and dive back into DIY


User avatar
RichyHo
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1235
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 5:51 pm
Location: UK

Post by RichyHo » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:37 pm

Navs wrote:
amnesia wrote:
toppobrillo wrote:
Navs wrote:
The Toppobrillo is a very nice filter but it does not sound like a Serge.


Totally agree. I just borrowed a Toppo and its not even close
Is it supposed to be? :hmm:
I dont know if its suppose to be but for some reason it must have people thinking it is, thats why I wanted to try it.
No, Josh, and it doesn't have to be. It's a class filter in its own right. But evidently some people think there's a Serge connection.
I thought there was a connection and some of the stuff I've read (and heard) reinforced that. I've read similar about the 'TWF'. Is there something that can claim - in any way - to be more Serge-like? Or is the desired outcome more technique than hardware?

comaduster
Common Wiggler
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:55 pm

Post by comaduster » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:44 pm

My experience with serge animoo and the Variable Q VCF is it's pretty sharp and clean -- which I like -- when it's patched vanilla. I think where things get interesting is when you patch subtle feedback paths through the waveshapers and transient generators (acting as a slew limiter) back in to the filters second input and vary the gain. I was able to create a BUNCH of different filter characteristics by doing this. Some quite vactrol-ish sounding, some more unstable, etc. I always thought of that filter as a clean slate to create lots of different types of filter behaviour. Not many other filters I've tried really held up to this type of treatment, except for the Cwejman MMF-1 (brilliant filter). Fun stuff!

User avatar
mhtones
Dreams in CV
Posts: 1701
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:18 pm
Location: SF Bay Area

Post by mhtones » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:40 pm

Navs wrote:
amnesia wrote:
toppobrillo wrote:
Navs wrote:
The Toppobrillo is a very nice filter but it does not sound like a Serge.


Totally agree. I just borrowed a Toppo and its not even close
Is it supposed to be? :hmm:
I dont know if its suppose to be but for some reason it must have people thinking it is, thats why I wanted to try it.
No, Josh, and it doesn't have to be. It's a class filter in its own right. But evidently some people think there's a Serge connection.
Oh man, if Navs says I'm wrong then I must be wrong. And, I'm not being sarcastic either. I really respect Navs! :hail:

And, I know that Josh has said before that the Multifilter was not meant to be a euro equivalent/attempt at a Serge filter.

So, I apologize if I've misled anyone. But, in my own setup, I feel like I'm having a lot of SXXXX-like fun. This is based on the myriad of serge demos/tracks I've listened to in the Buchla/Serge subforum. However, I do admit that I have never played with a Serge in person, so I'm basing my comments on only what I've heard others do. And with all due respect, I guess all that really matters is that I'm having fun and loving the sounds my small setup makes. Now, I'll go :hide:
FS (US): WMD TBVCA, Rene v1
WTB (US): Stillson Hammer mk1

User avatar
Rabid
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Location: Kentucky, USA

Post by Rabid » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:28 pm

Old Age wrote:...

I am from St. Louis (in the city), but I am going to school in Louisville, KY. I should probably add that. Speaking of which, if any of you know of people in the Louisville area on this forum let me know, so far I haven't been able to find anyone :sadbanana: ....
I lived in Louisville first as a musician, then later when I went to Speed. I still buy most of my synths across the river at Far Out Music though I now live 160 miles away. I know someone on the forum is from Louisville because I bought a couple of used modules from him. I cannot remember who it was. You're not the only "Old Age."
Sometimes I feel like the Red Green of modulars.

User avatar
Rod Serling Fan Club
aquatic hitchhiker
Posts: 3760
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:13 am
Location: MNTN

Post by Rod Serling Fan Club » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:58 pm

@funky, I can verify they are similar I tried both filters side by side when I had a creature. It is sort of a vanilla filter IMHO its nice for pinging and crazy FM feedback stuff.

User avatar
30ohm
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:50 pm
Location: Berlin

Post by 30ohm » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:06 pm

I think people say the toppobrillo filter sounds like serge because it sounds really good, haha. But also can easily get that liquid-ey BLOOPBLORP sound that every serge demo ever features.


Someone should make a serge demo patching up the sound from Sandstorm lol.
pyramid power is real.

User avatar
aethersprite
Wiggling with Expedience
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:58 pm
Location: Minnesota

Post by aethersprite » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:21 pm

My favorite use of the Serge VCFQ is not even in a filter capacity, a pulse at the trigger input creates a beautiful dampened sine wave with VC decay. Also, the lo mode turns it into an incredible quadrature complex slew! Here's an example of a basic marimba tone available from ringing the filter on hi, nothing at the input. Sequence from the lovely ASR Quan M-odule.

http://soundcloud.com/candescent/candescent-062612

Edit: I'm very enthusiastic about the versatility and elegance of the VCFQ so here's another with it still not being used a filter! A recording of three Variable Q Filters patched to oscillate.

http://soundcloud.com/candescent/candescent-082912

:banana:

User avatar
ndkent
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3696
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:59 am

Post by ndkent » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:06 am

Don't forget the Universal Slope Generator (VCS in Euro land) can do a lowpass filter via slewing.

User avatar
toppobrillo
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 946
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:57 am
Location: OAK

Post by toppobrillo » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:01 am

I guess all that really matters is that I'm having fun and loving the sounds my small setup makes

yah! well im glad u dig!!

sorry, i just felt a need to chime in as the "serge like filter" comes up often enough, the tone I read from amnesia's comment was that the serge VCQ is, (and very well may be in his opinion), the 'benchmark' to which any similarly specced filter must be compared,,, I've never used one, and as Ive said while the feature-set on paper was inspiring [as is the case with loads of gear that I've never actually used] I certainly don't aim with my modules to nail specific nuance of 40 year old designs.. at least *yet* anyway. if i did, it would be obvious, as in a tribute..anyyyyyyways.. with respect to the OP my advice is a) try a serge! people are unloading them all the time lately it seems not sure which filter are in the system that KFW used here.. b) try a multifilter! of course i think its nice :bananaguitar: but yeah, as much as it can be, it's it's own thing

User avatar
toppobrillo
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 946
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:57 am
Location: OAK

Post by toppobrillo » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:03 am

Drumdrumdrumdrum wrote:
I didn't know serge used filters. I thought it was all "West Coast"? In fact using the word Serge and Filter in the same sentence is an oxymoron.


That definitely deserves the reply "Hmmmmmm"
haha yes :help:

edit:
Oh man, if Navs says I'm wrong then I must be wrong. And, I'm not being sarcastic either. I really respect Navs!
yes, Navs is Der Mensch.

pixelmechanic
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1041
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:36 am
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Post by pixelmechanic » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:57 am

toppobrillo wrote: b) try a multifilter! of course i think its nice :bananaguitar: but yeah, as much as it can be, it's it's own thing
I would love to try a multifilter, but there's none available! ; )

User avatar
Navs
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4194
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:49 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Post by Navs » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:02 pm

toppobrillo wrote:yes, Navs is Der Mensch.
... nah, just another nut who wants a Serge VQVCF in Euro :hihi:

mhtones: there's nothing to apologize about - it's all Josh's fault :razz:

User avatar
Arcade Sinusoid
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:57 pm
Location: Chicago

Post by Arcade Sinusoid » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:14 pm

pixelmechanic wrote:
toppobrillo wrote: b) try a multifilter! of course i think its nice :bananaguitar: but yeah, as much as it can be, it's it's own thing
I would love to try a multifilter, but there's none available! ; )
Sure there are @ control
http://www.ctrl-mod.com/product-p/toppo ... filter.htm

pixelmechanic
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1041
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:36 am
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Post by pixelmechanic » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:13 pm

^ Excellent! Cheers... but now there'll be a rush!

User avatar
mhtones
Dreams in CV
Posts: 1701
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:18 pm
Location: SF Bay Area

Post by mhtones » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:47 am

Navs wrote: mhtones: there's nothing to apologize about - it's all Josh's fault :razz:
:hug:

Yeah, damn Josh! Stop putting out such quality modules. And I just realized you need your own emoticon!
FS (US): WMD TBVCA, Rene v1
WTB (US): Stillson Hammer mk1

User avatar
bisquick
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 388
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:32 am

Post by bisquick » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:49 pm

I had a question about the differences, if any, between the various replicas of the serge euro filters out there.

It's my understanding that CGS, Random*Source, and Elby have all made releases. Are there more?
Most of these seem to be licensed/agreed to by Serge himself, so I am curious if anyone out there has done a thorough eval of the various options? Is is mostly panel design and/or HP?

I mean, theoretically there should be no differences, but I wanted to consult the experts.

Thanks for any info!! :party:
Also, if there is a better thread out there about this, please do let me know. I found the title in this one to be the most relevant.

User avatar
Leverkusen
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2280
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Suhlendorf

Post by Leverkusen » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:58 pm

As far as I understand Randomsource made some improvements on their Serge modules in cooperation with Serge himself, mostly to achieve better audio quality. The VC Slope Filter also has added resonance control with a potentiometer and a wider range for the slope compared to the original.

User avatar
Leverkusen
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2280
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Suhlendorf

Post by Leverkusen » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:59 pm

As far as I understand Randomsource made some improvements on their Serge modules in cooperation with Serge himself, mostly to achieve better audio quality. The VC Slope Filter also has added resonance control with a potentiometer.

User avatar
bisquick
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 388
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:32 am

Post by bisquick » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:02 am

OK, so R*S improved things.
And Elby and CGS they mostly obtained permission/guidance?
In that case, are there any differences between the Elby and CGS implementations?

User avatar
Navs
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4194
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:49 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Post by Navs » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:51 am

That's a bit of a simplification ;)

Ken Stone/ Cat Girl Synth has been making licensed adaptations of Serge designs and others available to the DIY community for years/decades.

http://cgs.synth.net
http://serge.synth.net

Some of his designs and now the Serge adaptations were/are made for Euro format by Elby. So, yes, they should be the same.

R*S 'improved things' by using modern VCAs. CGS uses the original gain cells. So, to answer your question, there is a difference.

Another difference might be R*S's choice to stick to Serge levels, rather than adapt the circuits to 'hotter' Euro levels:

viewtopic.php?p=2157324#2157324

That said, which filters do you mean? It looks like Elby/CGS only produce the 1973 and EQs, not the Variable Q, for example, which is DIY:

http://cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs112_vcfq.html
http://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/euro ... -serge.htm

Best ask Laurie!

widgetoz
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 694
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 1:32 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Post by widgetoz » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:34 pm

Navs wrote:That's a bit of a simplification ;)

Ken Stone/ Cat Girl Synth has been making licensed adaptations of Serge designs and others available to the DIY community for years/decades.

http://cgs.synth.net
http://serge.synth.net

Some of his designs and now the Serge adaptations were/are made for Euro format by Elby. So, yes, they should be the same.

R*S 'improved things' by using modern VCAs. CGS uses the original gain cells. So, to answer your question, there is a difference.

Another difference might be R*S's choice to stick to Serge levels, rather than adapt the circuits to 'hotter' Euro levels:

viewtopic.php?p=2157324#2157324

That said, which filters do you mean? It looks like Elby/CGS only produce the 1973 and EQs, not the Variable Q, for example, which is DIY:

http://cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs112_vcfq.html
http://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/euro ... -serge.htm

Best ask Laurie!
Currently we only have the ES07 1973 Filter and the ES22 resonant Equalizer. Other filters are being worked on. Doug Lynner has done a video on comparing the ES07 Filter with the Serge original so worth a look.

User avatar
bisquick
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 388
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:32 am

Post by bisquick » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:25 am

Thank you so much to Navs and Widgetoz for the clarifications.
Much appreciated. :chug:

Post Reply

Return to “Eurorack Modules”