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Serge Filters
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules  
Author Serge Filters
Old Age
I'm sure there is another thread on this, I just couldn't find it.

So I've been listening to Mr. Fullerton Whitman's "Multiples" a lot lately, and I have found myself in love with the filters on the serge he is using (especially on part 1). Which ones is he using? Are there any eurorack modules that are similar to these filters?
Arcade Sinusoid
Toppobrillo multifilter will get you pretty close.
Dofkev
The serge filters are amazing. You could buy (or build) this:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=66885&highlight=msu

Old age: you are in st louis? Small town, who are you?

Or you could forget trying to copy serge and get this totally wonderful module of amazement:
http://www.serge-fans.com/m-class-multi-filter.cfm

Or a more practical suggestion: The ability to voltage control the Q is a big part of the serge filter sound. Intellijel's Dr. Octature does this pretty well, and it is an amazing DC voltage generator AND it responds to FM soooooooo well.
mhtones
As suggested above, try the multifilter. To be honest, I know these can't exactly replace real serge, but the maths, sport modulator and multifilter are giving me all kinds of serge-a-like fun in the euro-world. It's peanut butter jelly time!
Old Age
Dofkev wrote:

Old age: you are in st louis? Small town, who are you?

Or a more practical suggestion: The ability to voltage control the Q is a big part of the serge filter sound. Intellijel's Dr. Octature does this pretty well, and it is an amazing DC voltage generator AND it responds to FM soooooooo well.


I am from St. Louis (in the city), but I am going to school in Louisville, KY. I should probably add that. Speaking of which, if any of you know of people in the Louisville area on this forum let me know, so far I haven't been able to find anyone sad banana . But yeah, I've seen Raglani, Kevin Harris, etc. do some modular shows and I really got into it. I've been a synth lover for a while, and this summer I finally decided to start a modular, and I'm looovin it.

Thanks for the advice. The multifilter and octature were definitely what I kind of had in mind. The DIY kit looks cool, and I would love to eventually build a serge-style system from elby. We will see!
Navs
The Toppobrillo is a very nice filter but it does not sound like a Serge.
Dofkev
Old Age wrote:
Dofkev wrote:

Old age: you are in st louis? Small town, who are you?

Or a more practical suggestion: The ability to voltage control the Q is a big part of the serge filter sound. Intellijel's Dr. Octature does this pretty well, and it is an amazing DC voltage generator AND it responds to FM soooooooo well.


I've seen Raglani, Kevin Harris, etc. do some modular shows and I really got into it.

Yeah, those guys totally suck, but hit me up if you ever come back to STL.
Mans
So what's so special about a serge filter exactly? Genuine inquiry.

I've heard that Cwejman filters share some of its characteristics?
komyta
Mans wrote:
So what's so special about a serge filter exactly? Genuine inquiry.

They're expensive. hihi

Mans wrote:
I've heard that Cwejman filters share some of its characteristics?

Indeed. See above. lol

(hides)
komyta
...While wandering in the Buchla, EMS & Serge subforum, I came upon this interesting thread about forthcoming Serge Euro modules :

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58972

Exciting. hyper
amnesia
Navs wrote:
The Toppobrillo is a very nice filter but it does not sound like a Serge.


Totally agree. I just borrowed a Toppo and its not even close.
toppobrillo
Quote:

Navs wrote:
The Toppobrillo is a very nice filter but it does not sound like a Serge.


Totally agree. I just borrowed a Toppo and its not even close



Is it supposed to be? hmmm.....
Drumdrumdrumdrum
I didn't know serge used filters. I thought it was all "West Coast"? In fact using the word Serge and Filter in the same sentence is an oxymoron.
BugBrand
Drumdrumdrumdrum wrote:
I didn't know serge used filters. I thought it was all "West Coast"? In fact using the word Serge and Filter in the same sentence is an oxymoron.


That definitely deserves the reply "Hmmmmmm"

Edit - I think you're thinking about Buchla not having much in the way of resonant filters? (Maybe that's wrong too? What do I know.. but, anyways - Serge filters are resonant and well regarded - mainly multi-mode SV Filters, I think)
amnesia
toppobrillo wrote:
Quote:

Navs wrote:
The Toppobrillo is a very nice filter but it does not sound like a Serge.


Totally agree. I just borrowed a Toppo and its not even close



Is it supposed to be? hmmm.....


I dont know if its suppose to be but for some reason it must have people thinking it is, thats why I wanted to try it.
richard
Drumdrumdrumdrum wrote:
I didn't know serge used filters. I thought it was all "West Coast"? In fact using the word Serge and Filter in the same sentence is an oxymoron.


seriously, i just don't get it
Funky40
how is the CGS Serge 1973 SVF ?
is that the one from the serge line you would choose today ?
having this is having "the serge VCF sound" ?
Drumdrumdrumdrum
So to say West cost synthesis does not use filters is a big generalisation then, right?
ndkent
A lot of people say "West Coast" because they don't actually own Buchla or Serge and even perhaps if they did they'd receive a "huh?" in response. Anyway Serge did not utilize lowpass gates and he was pretty Moog informed as he worked quite a bit expanding TONTO fairly early on. That said Serge's filters dont try to go head to head with Moog. Maybe more the precision tool which these days also brings up Cwejman.
Nuuj
I swear that I saw that some obscure Euro maker that I liked on Facebook posted a panel for an upcoming Serge filter clone in the last month, but I can't recall who. I can recall that they weren't US based and don't currently have many modules on the market.
Arcade Sinusoid
Oops my bad fellas. What the op was asking was a filter that sounded "similar" in the euro format. By all means its not a Serge filter. But I think you can get some pretty cool serge "like" results with the toppobrillos functions especially with some feedback patching or quad cv foolery. Just a recommendation to Old Age. I guess the answer is if you want a Serge filter buy a Serge filter but while saving up for one enjoy yourself some nice euro filters! twisted
Arcade Sinusoid
[s]http://soundcloud.com/def-rebel/filter-fun[/s]
oops Guinness ftw! lol
Mans
komyta wrote:
Mans wrote:
So what's so special about a serge filter exactly? Genuine inquiry.

They're expensive. hihi

Mans wrote:
I've heard that Cwejman filters share some of its characteristics?

Indeed. See above. lol

(hides)


lol
Navs
amnesia wrote:
toppobrillo wrote:
Quote:

Navs wrote:
The Toppobrillo is a very nice filter but it does not sound like a Serge.


Totally agree. I just borrowed a Toppo and its not even close



Is it supposed to be? hmmm.....


I dont know if its suppose to be but for some reason it must have people thinking it is, thats why I wanted to try it.


No, Josh, and it doesn't have to be. It's a class filter in its own right. But evidently some people think there's a Serge connection.
Michael O.
There are two types of resonant vcf's (other than the res eq, which lacks vc, and things that could be patched up as a vcf/lpg, like the dusg, for example) in my friend's Serge/STS system. There's the variable-Q filter, and there's the variable slope filter. Each filter has distinct features, and, likewise, has a distinct sound.

It appeared to me as if the variable-q (as in vc'able Q/resonance) is more or less a standard state-variable filter, but with all the options. This is probably where the initial association with the toppo vcf arose; it and the variable-q appear very similar function-wise, but likely sound different (e.g., doepfer moog and doepfer diode lpf's).

The variable-slope filter seemed to be a different beast entirely, though. The vslope has infinitely variable slope that can be manually or voltage controlled. I don't think I've seen this feature as such in a euro module, which is a bummer because it really has a unique character. The serge is actually capable of incredible acid/techno style synth lines when patched properly, despite popular belief. Also, like just about everything in the serge system (or euro, or anything really) the filters benefit from judicious feedback patching, experimenting with and mastering that gets you a large part of the way there.

Also, hey wigglers! Good to be aboard, been reading for a long time, you guys are the best synth resource out there! Finally, sorry for potential typos, typed from the phone
negativspace
Funky40 wrote:
how is the CGS Serge 1973 SVF ?
is that the one from the serge line you would choose today ?
having this is having "the serge VCF sound" ?


It's excellent. Very excellent. As for how it compares to the Vari-Q or Vari-slope modules, I have no idea. My Serge experience is barely above 0.

It will certainly give you "a Serge VCF sound." hihi

Quote:
Also, hey wigglers! Good to be aboard, been reading for a long time, you guys are the best synth resource out there! Finally, sorry for potential typos, typed from the phone


Great first post - welcome to Muff's! It's motherfucking bacon yo
Funky40
thanks negativspace !
some motivation for funky40 to finish that 4/5 populated CGS 1973 serge hihi ...and dive back into DIY
RichyHo
Navs wrote:
amnesia wrote:
toppobrillo wrote:
Quote:

Navs wrote:
The Toppobrillo is a very nice filter but it does not sound like a Serge.


Totally agree. I just borrowed a Toppo and its not even close



Is it supposed to be? hmmm.....


I dont know if its suppose to be but for some reason it must have people thinking it is, thats why I wanted to try it.


No, Josh, and it doesn't have to be. It's a class filter in its own right. But evidently some people think there's a Serge connection.

I thought there was a connection and some of the stuff I've read (and heard) reinforced that. I've read similar about the 'TWF'. Is there something that can claim - in any way - to be more Serge-like? Or is the desired outcome more technique than hardware?
comaduster
My experience with serge animoo and the Variable Q VCF is it's pretty sharp and clean -- which I like -- when it's patched vanilla. I think where things get interesting is when you patch subtle feedback paths through the waveshapers and transient generators (acting as a slew limiter) back in to the filters second input and vary the gain. I was able to create a BUNCH of different filter characteristics by doing this. Some quite vactrol-ish sounding, some more unstable, etc. I always thought of that filter as a clean slate to create lots of different types of filter behaviour. Not many other filters I've tried really held up to this type of treatment, except for the Cwejman MMF-1 (brilliant filter). Fun stuff!
mhtones
Navs wrote:
amnesia wrote:
toppobrillo wrote:
Quote:

Navs wrote:
The Toppobrillo is a very nice filter but it does not sound like a Serge.


Totally agree. I just borrowed a Toppo and its not even close



Is it supposed to be? hmmm.....


I dont know if its suppose to be but for some reason it must have people thinking it is, thats why I wanted to try it.


No, Josh, and it doesn't have to be. It's a class filter in its own right. But evidently some people think there's a Serge connection.


Oh man, if Navs says I'm wrong then I must be wrong. And, I'm not being sarcastic either. I really respect Navs! we're not worthy

And, I know that Josh has said before that the Multifilter was not meant to be a euro equivalent/attempt at a Serge filter.

So, I apologize if I've misled anyone. But, in my own setup, I feel like I'm having a lot of SXXXX-like fun. This is based on the myriad of serge demos/tracks I've listened to in the Buchla/Serge subforum. However, I do admit that I have never played with a Serge in person, so I'm basing my comments on only what I've heard others do. And with all due respect, I guess all that really matters is that I'm having fun and loving the sounds my small setup makes. Now, I'll go (hides)
Rabid
Old Age wrote:
...

I am from St. Louis (in the city), but I am going to school in Louisville, KY. I should probably add that. Speaking of which, if any of you know of people in the Louisville area on this forum let me know, so far I haven't been able to find anyone sad banana ....


I lived in Louisville first as a musician, then later when I went to Speed. I still buy most of my synths across the river at Far Out Music though I now live 160 miles away. I know someone on the forum is from Louisville because I bought a couple of used modules from him. I cannot remember who it was. You're not the only "Old Age."
Rod Serling Fan Club
@funky, I can verify they are similar I tried both filters side by side when I had a creature. It is sort of a vanilla filter IMHO its nice for pinging and crazy FM feedback stuff.
30ohm
I think people say the toppobrillo filter sounds like serge because it sounds really good, haha. But also can easily get that liquid-ey BLOOPBLORP sound that every serge demo ever features.


Someone should make a serge demo patching up the sound from Sandstorm lol.
aethersprite
My favorite use of the Serge VCFQ is not even in a filter capacity, a pulse at the trigger input creates a beautiful dampened sine wave with VC decay. Also, the lo mode turns it into an incredible quadrature complex slew! Here's an example of a basic marimba tone available from ringing the filter on hi, nothing at the input. Sequence from the lovely ASR Quan M-odule.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/candescent/candescent-062612[/s]

Edit: I'm very enthusiastic about the versatility and elegance of the VCFQ so here's another with it still not being used a filter! A recording of three Variable Q Filters patched to oscillate.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/candescent/candescent-082912[/s]

It's peanut butter jelly time!
ndkent
Don't forget the Universal Slope Generator (VCS in Euro land) can do a lowpass filter via slewing.
toppobrillo
Quote:
I guess all that really matters is that I'm having fun and loving the sounds my small setup makes



yah! well im glad u dig!!

sorry, i just felt a need to chime in as the "serge like filter" comes up often enough, the tone I read from amnesia's comment was that the serge VCQ is, (and very well may be in his opinion), the 'benchmark' to which any similarly specced filter must be compared,,, I've never used one, and as Ive said while the feature-set on paper was inspiring [as is the case with loads of gear that I've never actually used] I certainly don't aim with my modules to nail specific nuance of 40 year old designs.. at least *yet* anyway. if i did, it would be obvious, as in a tribute..anyyyyyyways.. with respect to the OP my advice is a) try a serge! people are unloading them all the time lately it seems not sure which filter[s] are in the system that KFW used here.. b) try a multifilter! of course i think its nice Rockin' Banana! but yeah, as much as it can be, it's it's own thing
toppobrillo
Quote:

Drumdrumdrumdrum wrote:
I didn't know serge used filters. I thought it was all "West Coast"? In fact using the word Serge and Filter in the same sentence is an oxymoron.


That definitely deserves the reply "Hmmmmmm"


haha yes help

edit:
Quote:
Oh man, if Navs says I'm wrong then I must be wrong. And, I'm not being sarcastic either. I really respect Navs!


yes, Navs is Der Mensch.
pixelmechanic
toppobrillo wrote:
b) try a multifilter! of course i think its nice Rockin' Banana! but yeah, as much as it can be, it's it's own thing


I would love to try a multifilter, but there's none available! ; )
Navs
toppobrillo wrote:
yes, Navs is Der Mensch.


... nah, just another nut who wants a Serge VQVCF in Euro hihi

mhtones: there's nothing to apologize about - it's all Josh's fault razz
Arcade Sinusoid
pixelmechanic wrote:
toppobrillo wrote:
b) try a multifilter! of course i think its nice Rockin' Banana! but yeah, as much as it can be, it's it's own thing


I would love to try a multifilter, but there's none available! ; )

Sure there are @ control
http://www.ctrl-mod.com/product-p/toppobrillo-multifilter.htm
pixelmechanic
^ Excellent! Cheers... but now there'll be a rush!
mhtones
Navs wrote:

mhtones: there's nothing to apologize about - it's all Josh's fault razz

Hug

Yeah, damn Josh! Stop putting out such quality modules. And I just realized you need your own emoticon!
bisquick
I had a question about the differences, if any, between the various replicas of the serge euro filters out there.

It's my understanding that CGS, Random*Source, and Elby have all made releases. Are there more?
Most of these seem to be licensed/agreed to by Serge himself, so I am curious if anyone out there has done a thorough eval of the various options? Is is mostly panel design and/or HP?

I mean, theoretically there should be no differences, but I wanted to consult the experts.

Thanks for any info!! w00t
Also, if there is a better thread out there about this, please do let me know. I found the title in this one to be the most relevant.
Leverkusen
As far as I understand Randomsource made some improvements on their Serge modules in cooperation with Serge himself, mostly to achieve better audio quality. The VC Slope Filter also has added resonance control with a potentiometer and a wider range for the slope compared to the original.
Leverkusen
As far as I understand Randomsource made some improvements on their Serge modules in cooperation with Serge himself, mostly to achieve better audio quality. The VC Slope Filter also has added resonance control with a potentiometer.
bisquick
OK, so R*S improved things.
And Elby and CGS they mostly obtained permission/guidance?
In that case, are there any differences between the Elby and CGS implementations?
Navs
That's a bit of a simplification wink

Ken Stone/ Cat Girl Synth has been making licensed adaptations of Serge designs and others available to the DIY community for years/decades.

http://cgs.synth.net
http://serge.synth.net

Some of his designs and now the Serge adaptations were/are made for Euro format by Elby. So, yes, they should be the same.

R*S 'improved things' by using modern VCAs. CGS uses the original gain cells. So, to answer your question, there is a difference.

Another difference might be R*S's choice to stick to Serge levels, rather than adapt the circuits to 'hotter' Euro levels:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2157324#2157324

That said, which filters do you mean? It looks like Elby/CGS only produce the 1973 and EQs, not the Variable Q, for example, which is DIY:

http://cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs112_vcfq.html
http://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/euro-serge/euro-serge.htm

Best ask Laurie!
widgetoz
Navs wrote:
That's a bit of a simplification ;)

Ken Stone/ Cat Girl Synth has been making licensed adaptations of Serge designs and others available to the DIY community for years/decades.

http://cgs.synth.net
http://serge.synth.net

Some of his designs and now the Serge adaptations were/are made for Euro format by Elby. So, yes, they should be the same.

R*S 'improved things' by using modern VCAs. CGS uses the original gain cells. So, to answer your question, there is a difference.

Another difference might be R*S's choice to stick to Serge levels, rather than adapt the circuits to 'hotter' Euro levels:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2157324#2157324

That said, which filters do you mean? It looks like Elby/CGS only produce the 1973 and EQs, not the Variable Q, for example, which is DIY:

http://cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs112_vcfq.html
http://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/euro-serge/euro-serge.htm

Best ask Laurie!
Currently we only have the ES07 1973 Filter and the ES22 resonant Equalizer. Other filters are being worked on. Doug Lynner has done a video on comparing the ES07 Filter with the Serge original so worth a look.
bisquick
Thank you so much to Navs and Widgetoz for the clarifications.
Much appreciated. Chugging Beers
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