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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Rollz-5+ Kit from Meng Qi (2014 Revision 3)
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Ciat-Lonbarde  
Author Rollz-5+ Kit from Meng Qi (2014 Revision 3)
zilaihong


[s]http://soundcloud.com/mengqimusic/meng-qi-roolz-5-first[/s]

-----

SOLD OUT

-----

Improvements :
vactrol controlled power starve (video demo : http://instagram.com/p/mZQdXVLvGl/)
on board ground connector
slightly smaller footprint
ImAU PCB
trimmers for gongue pitch, so you can adjust them to taste


Cut to fix an issue:


edit : on 2016-04-23, partial kit is discontinued, PCB is still offered.

The power requirement is : 9v center positive PSU

Case Assembling Guide : M3*11+6 hex copper standoffs between faceplate and pcb. Then M3*20 hex copper standoffs between the back of the PCB and the bottom of the case.

[BOM] Rollz-5+ PCB by MengQiMusic
----------------------------------

ICs/Semi's:

8 x [511-TL082CN] (082) (inlcuded in this kit)
8 x [511-TL084CN] (084) (inlcuded in this kit)
2 x [511-4013] (4013) (inlcuded in this kit)
2 x [511-4066] (4066) (inlcuded in this kit)
4 x [18-1N914] diode
1 x 1N4007 diode
24 x PNP transistor [512-BC557B] (557)
60 x NPN transistor [512-BC547B] (547)

----------------------------------
Capacitors:

1 x 10uF electrolytic
30 x 1uF electrolytic
24 x .01uF (103)
16 x .001uF (102)
3 x .1uF (104)

----------------------------------
Resistors:

4 x 220
1 x 1k
4 x 4.7k
32 x 10k
4 x 15k
88 x 22k (includes the 4 needed for Ultrasound fix)
4 x 47k
44 x 100k
28 x 220k
36 x 470k
4 x 1m
4 x 2.2m

----------------------------------
Hardware/misc:

1 x vactrol
16 x 10k pots (inlcuded in this kit)
1 x 1k pot (inlcuded in this kit)
4 x 1m pots (inlcuded in this kit)
8 x 2m 3296W trimpots
1 x 9v - 15v power supply (circuit spec'd for 9v, but different folks have had different results)
banana jacks (inlcuded in this kit)
IC sockets (inlcuded in this kit)
standoffs
mounting hardware

----------------------------------
Variable Parts:

resistors...
8 "x" 2m2 - 22k (avdog undulation speed - 2m2 is extra slow, 22k is fast)

"Hairy" capacitors
4x 10uf - 100uf electrolytic (avdog undulation sensitivity - 10uf is "sensitive", 100uf is "extra sensitive")
4x 47uf - .1uf ("rhythm slow to fast")
36x rolls caps (Peter B says .1uf and up. Although it looks like folks are using stuff between .01uf-ish and 100uf-ish, but mostly in the .1uf to 47uf range)
----------------------------------


Thank you Peter for this awesome sounding design!

Moderators: I don't know if this post should be in S/T but I think this is only for the people in CL sub forum. If I need to post this info there please inform me I'll edit my post.
numan7
love it - and honor to both you and peterb, zilaihong! we're not worthy

i personally have yet to acquire any CL instruments (still need to finish a few things elsewhere in my system, mainly wiard 300-related before i think i will be ready to walk this interesting path).

but i've been really, really impressed with the sheer visual beauty and intelligently chosen layout of your acrylic *recombination* of the sid and the tet!! i think the sum of what you have produced there exceeds the individual terms, which themselves are already great in terms of musical interest to begin with. and i absolutely must have one of these, some day, as my primary personal perfomance organus! nanners

have you thought about designing an acrylic coco-baby at some point, btw?! woah

cheers
Pascal
zilaihong: more info and updates on this build
zilaihong
numan7

Thank you very much for the nice words!

That instrument is very lovely and it will be an one-off instrument (tetrazzi is discontinued). I am currently selling it for $1300 because I plan to buy more from peter!

$1300 is really a bargain price.

I don't find any circuit for coco stuff on ciat-lonbarde website, maybe peter doesn't want to disclose them or it is my bad web search skill?

-----

Pascal

I'll check the pcb design, and tomorow the files will go to factory. After a few days I'll get the boards and build them.

I design this basically because I want a compact and flexible CL drum box to make my CL album with, and these can also be patched into other CL instruments to form a super nabra modular.

Ultrasound filters sounds awesome, and in my design users can also patch the roolz directly into output. (sounds awesome, I know it thanks to a demo by a member "repeater" here)
dan_p
Realy interesting, a great idea. I will follow progress.

I presume the intention would be to offer builds for sale?
fluxmonkey
so it looks like there are 18 roolz "cells", that could be patched in different combinations of 3/4/5/6... like two 4s and two 5s, or three 6s... is that right? i was trying to work out something like that and my first attempt failed.

at any rate, i'm interested as always. what about the gong/avdog?

thanks for continuing this series!

b
zilaihong
dan_p

pcb is 20$ each.
I'll have the price for the built ones later.

fluxmonkey

No they are fixed 3/4/5/6 roolz. In theory it is possible to use re-configurable "cells". It will be an easy mod if you want that. Just cut several traces on pcb and solder some jump wires.

No gong/avdog on this one, it is ultrasonic purist my friend! w00t
pugix
I'd be interested in this PCB. In fact, any of your PCBs. Are they listed for sale somewhere?
zilaihong
pugix wrote:
I'd be interested in this PCB. In fact, any of your PCBs. Are they listed for sale somewhere?


Thank you for the interests. Please see the other thread for some info.
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1048156#1048156
zilaihong
It is snowing today in beijing.
I got up early and couldn't sleep.
I couldn't resist but -
...
..
.
Designing the pcb for gongz! w00t
zilaihong
It's amazing how fast things progress... 8_)
dan_p
^ com'on spell it out for the circuit illiterate amongst us.

Rollz at the top?
4 x ???????????
2 pairs ultrasound?
2 x gongue?

You certainly don't hang about zilaihong thumbs up
zilaihong
That's 4 x AVdog!

And each ultrasound / gongue block contains 2 set of circuits so in total:

8 roolz in total (3/4/5/6 two of each)
4 x AV dog
4 x ultrasound
4 x gongue

So this is a full roolz-5!!!!!

Use it to make solo analogue tracks / make backing tracks for singing or jamming along on the organus / expand your nabra modular.

Compact and all self contained, with banana jacks / neutrik audio jacks on the pcb.

Worked on this pcb for a whole day long, but I am excited!
I hope everything turns out to be fine.
Now I'll have a drink to celebrate.

Guinness ftw!

As always, honor to peter b! we're not worthy
fluxmonkey
hope it keeps snowing in beijing hihi thanks, MQ!
themanthatwasused
Great job zilaihong
Is there a Ciat Lonbarde for dummies?
I want to understand the terms a bit more, hopefully in plain english help
+roolz
+ AV dog
+ultrasound
+gongue
dan_p
MY ASS IS BLEEDING Guinness ftw!
zilaihong
fluxmonkey

My pleasure! wink
I love snow in beijing. Snowing outside, hotpot + drinks in the house = w00t

themanthatwasused

Best place to learn ciat-lonbarde stuff is peter's website, for example, to learn what those stuffs are, check out:
http://ciat-lonbarde.net/rollz5/index.html

dan_p

It's peanut butter jelly time! Guinness ftw! w00t
wednesdayayay
this looks awesome! perfect to set next to the PB smile
pugix
themanthatwasused wrote:
Great job zilaihong
Is there a Ciat Lonbarde for dummies?
I want to understand the terms a bit more, hopefully in plain english help
+roolz
+ AV dog
+ultrasound
+gongue


The plumbutter 'manual' explains a lot of these terms.

http://www.ciat-lonbarde.net/plumbutter/index.html

If you scroll to the very bottom, download SCHEMATICS PAPERS, you also get schematic diagrams and more explanation. I've spent many enjoyable hours pondering Peter B. documents. I print them all and sit drinking coffee while studying them. 8_)
themanthatwasused
pugix wrote:
I've spent many enjoyable hours pondering Peter B. documents. I print them all and sit drinking coffee while studying them. 8_)

^^^
This is what I am gonna do, great advice.
Guinness ftw!
Repeater
Nice work, zilaihong! I like the look of your PCBs. Which program do you use to make them?

My only suggestion would be to make all of the filter modules (AVDog, Gong, Ultrasound filter) outputs patchable, not hardwired to the outputs, because the ultrasound filters tend to make sound even when nothing is patched into their inputs. This also makes it possible to add mixers and process other Rollz modules with the ultrasound filters or cascade the filters, which can often produce great results.

I would definitely pay $20 for a full Rollz-5 PCB especially if all the filter modules weren't hardwired to the outputs, though I guess cutting traces is an option. Maybe jumpers are a good idea?

Also, the Rollz-5 write-up on Peter's site is good, but there's a slightly different version in the Leonardo Music Journal that explains some of the controls in more detail. I can't dig it up at the moment, but if you can find it I highly recommend reading it. In particular, the pots for the gongs are explained better there than on the CL site.
bartlebooth
pugix wrote:
I've spent many enjoyable hours pondering Peter B. documents. I print them all and sit drinking coffee while studying them. 8_)


richard, if you're up for a real challenge or just need more fodder for coffeetime please ponder the fyrall and fourses documents and explain how the hell they work! well i pretty much get the fourses but no clue with the fyrall..

schematics are in the 'philosophical paperz': http://www.ciat-lonbarde.net/fyrall/index.html
pugix
Yes, many cups of coffee while perusing fourses and fryall.

I went back to studying fryall just recently. The oscillator design is very interesting. In section Z six oscillators connect in a loop, such that each modifies the frequency of the next, each going through a VCA that controls the depth of the FM. (The same theme is found in Cocoquantus.) The tricky part is the CV for each of those six VCAs. C Section (COUNTEN) is driven by the VCOs and produces six staircase waves. Section O (the ORRANGER) takes in the six VCO outputs plus the six staircase waves and selects from these to go back to control the VCAs. Section P is just a couple more VCOs to produce outputs for touch nodes.

But there's more. An external input can go into the Spesal Cuck. This would affect all the oscillators. There's also a speaker driver, but I can't figure out where the input for that comes from. hmmm.....

I wonder how anyone could have assembled a Fryall from these instructions. eek!
zilaihong
Repeater

Thank you! I've been using a small program called Sprint layout. It is an easy tool without fancy automatic features. But it is enough for me.

This pcb is a tribute to peter's original wall-hanging rollz-5 machine, and basically contains same modules (minus 2 six-roolz, his version has 4 six-roolz).

And thanks to your request : you can find something like a small octagon pad with a rectangle pad on my pcb. 12 of them. Just cut the trace in the middle. The signal of this module is then cut off from the mix, and solder a wire on the octagon pad to get the signal. Then everything is completely modular.

This pcb just went to factory today and I'd say it will be 30$ per piece due to the cost.

Do you mean the article here?
http://www.leonardo.info/isast/journal/toclmj17.html
Repeater
zilaihong wrote:
Repeater
This pcb just went to factory today and I'd say it will be 30$ per piece due to the cost.

Do you mean the article here?
http://www.leonardo.info/isast/journal/toclmj17.html


$30 is still reasonable considering your efforts and the amount of time saved by not having to build on the paper circuit boards. Provided they work alright, I'll definitely take one and might be up for two.

Yep, that's the article. I'm pretty sure that the document on the CL Rollz-5 page is a draft for the article as it is very similar yet there are some additional notes. It's been a while since I've looked at either though.
HueMonContact
I'll be purchasing a few of these and some of your other pcbs when this one comes back from the factory!
Great work man!
jooks
I want one too! Great work thumbs up
NS4W
Is it eurorack compatible?
zilaihong
Thank you! I'll build one to test it when it come back from the factory, then it will be ready for sell.

NS4W
I don't know.
It is all sound signal so I guess it can be interconnected.
But I am not sure about this.
Maybe I will test that after I build it.
Repeater
NS4W wrote:
Is it eurorack compatible?


Not sure how zilaihong plans to power his version, but the original Rollz-5 circuit is powered by a 9V single supply (usually a battery). The original is definitely not designed to process the 20V peak to peak signals that Eurorack can generate.

Feeding CV into it could be sketchy as there are only really trigger inputs on the "filter" modules (gong, avdog, ultrasound), other than the ultrasound filter which can process audio (I haven't tested CV on the input, but I'll try it out). You can definitely extract some interesting control voltages from the geometric Rolls, especially if you run a few of them into an R2R ladder or mixer. Plenty of Wogglebugesque stuff comes out of the Rolls, especially without using the filter modules, when you patch 'em up right. Check out this clip: https://soundcloud.com/martin-freem/4-roll-5-roll

I have a few Rolls in my Rollz-5 dedicated to CV and I highly recommend doing the same. Just use larger "hairy" capacitors in your Rolls to get lower frequencies. Read the notes on the Ciat Lonbarde site if this doesn't make sense to you.
bartlebooth
pugix wrote:
Yes, many cups of coffee while perusing fourses and fryall.

I went back to studying fryall just recently. The oscillator design is very interesting. In section Z six oscillators connect in a loop, such that each modifies the frequency of the next, each going through a VCA that controls the depth of the FM. (The same theme is found in Cocoquantus.) The tricky part is the CV for each of those six VCAs. C Section (COUNTEN) is driven by the VCOs and produces six staircase waves. Section O (the ORRANGER) takes in the six VCO outputs plus the six staircase waves and selects from these to go back to control the VCAs. Section P is just a couple more VCOs to produce outputs for touch nodes.

But there's more. An external input can go into the Spesal Cuck. This would affect all the oscillators. There's also a speaker driver, but I can't figure out where the input for that comes from. hmmm.....

I wonder how anyone could have assembled a Fryall from these instructions. eek!


thanks for that description of the oscillator section! Spesal cuck modulates the voltage reference i think.it makes the whole instrument spasm in unpredictable ways. the speaker input is a node is at the bottom of the 'F- formation', its below the 'outputs' (transobservers) and the feedback nodes (ice-stabs). if you're ever up in DC you should come by and check these things out in person!

oh, as far as assembly there was a separate document for that (listed as 'manual for assembly' on the fyrall page).
mrbloor
think I'm gonna have to get me a pcb thumbs up
subterryanean
Very cool!

Another thing that would go along with those are the Dogvoice from the Dogslit. Very similar to the filter's on the Rollz. I love the sound of the Dogslit, but apperently it's not something that can be made other then the Dogvoice, something about having to circuit bend the Swoop and Anti-Swoop to make them work.
zilaihong
A quick update:

Got the boards today, they are big and beautiful.
I spent this afternoon soldering.
Currently lack of 084, ordered and waiting for them to arrive to test the board.


roolz-5 pcb building by Meng Qi, on Flickr
numan7
w00t totally awesome, Meng Qi! i am seriously looking forward to hearing some of the sounds these beautiful devices can make! screaming goo yo

cheers
mrbloor
thumbs up
HueMonContact
YAY!!! I'm really looking forward to building one of these. Can't wait to hear the sounds.
blue_lu
oh yeah - this is rather interesting!
CJ Miller
Beautiful work! Much more economical than my Rollz PCB, which is just a PnP of the paper designs.
glitchpop
numan7 wrote:
w00t totally awesome, Meng Qi! i am seriously looking forward to hearing some of the sounds these beautiful devices can make! screaming goo yo

cheers


THIS! The Chewbacca Defense
zilaihong
The 1st post updated with the most recent info! With audio recording, enjoy!


Guinness ftw!
themanthatwasused

BUMP
This deserves a wider audience!
numan7
SlayerBadger! screaming goo yo w00t that sounds so vivid and alive! hyper Guinness ftw! we're not worthy

pm'd for pcbs!

cheers
Repeater
Great recording! Kinda reminds me of David Tudor's Rainforest. The Rollz has an incredible gamelan-like quality to it when you patch it up right.

Looking forward to assembling another one of these.
HueMonContact
Excellent sounds!

This going to be a fun build! I sent you a PM for this and a few of your DDDM2 boards.
zilaihong
Thank you VERY much for the nice words and bump!

Yus, the Roolz-5 sounds perfect, The avdog and ultrasound provice back ground statics / swirls and so on... and the gongue is very, very percussive and almost has an acoustic feel in it.
And by tweaking knobs it can alter the speed of rhythm so to create and release tension in the music. "vivid and alive“ "gamelan-like quality" perfect for describing roolz-5!

I only have 1 roolz-5 pcb left now. More will be available in roughly 2 weeks. Sorry about the low stock number this batch!

Btw, ladies and gentlemen, the new Grassi and APCS PCB in polar white!

The new polar white pcbs of Ciat-Lonbarde Grassi and APCS by Meng Qi, on Flickr
mrbloor
Hi Zilaihong,

thanks for the pcb, arrived this morning, very pleased.

I assume this pcb is one of the first batch so I must do the mod you describe.

Also, can you please post a photo of a populated pcb, you have one on tumbler but there is a cats arse in the way smile.

I would really like to follow your design regarding banana colours etc, and a clear photo will give me a greater understanding of what I have here before I order components.

Thanks once again.

David
zilaihong
mrbloor wrote:
Hi Zilaihong,

thanks for the pcb, arrived this morning, very pleased.

I assume this pcb is one of the first batch so I must do the mod you describe.

Also, can you please post a photo of a populated pcb, you have one on tumbler but there is a cats arse in the way smile.

I would really like to follow your design regarding banana colours etc, and a clear photo will give me a greater understanding of what I have here before I order components.

Thanks once again.

David


Hi, David,

I am glad to hear that the pcb arrived!

Here are the pics I've just taken, and uploaded. They are full size giant pics, which should be good for your needs:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/107177824976770008966/albums/584780 0835687668273

I would love to see and hear the roolz-5 you build!

Regards,
/M.Q.
mrbloor
sorry get an error code :(
zilaihong
The permission was private I don't know why...
Fixed! wink
mrbloor
love
zilaihong
new batch available now!
with improvements!

w00t Guinness ftw!
CJ Miller
These are very nice boards! Very much recommended for a nice Rollz5.

Zilaihong, would you tell me about what your mods were for V2? I am building V1 now and would be interested in tacking on a few extra bits to get this functionality.
dan_p
Any chance of getting populated/built boards?
These look great and a brilliant add on for a PB but Chances of me getting it built and working are next to nothing!
HueMonContact
I pm'ed you for 2 rollz 5 board.
bk
PM sent
NS4W
What connections are there for banana patch points on the board? How modular is this Rollz-5?

(I'm building it on paper, but I'm a sucker for cats, so I might want the PCBs too)
zilaihong
NS4W wrote:
What connections are there for banana patch points on the board? How modular is this Rollz-5?

(I'm building it on paper, but I'm a sucker for cats, so I might want the PCBs too)


a giant solder pad with a 6mm hole that you can install the banana jacks directly on it with screw.

w00t
fluxmonkey
paid for 2, plus another grassi. Grazie!

b
zilaihong
Shipped a bunch of stuff today. Try to spot your order in the pic below. wink
themanthatwasused
One of those rollz5 with the hardware kit is on it way to Singapore I assume!
It's peanut butter jelly time! nanners Rockin' Banana!
This will be a great addition to my BugBrand!
Thanks for doing this MQ
Guinness ftw!
zilaihong
themanthatwasused wrote:
One of those rollz5 with the hardware kit is on it way to Singapore I assume!
It's peanut butter jelly time! nanners Rockin' Banana!
This will be a great addition to my BugBrand!
Thanks for doing this MQ
Guinness ftw!


Err.. sorry to say that your white opaque case is still not done yet... but soon wink, it should be ready today or tomorrow.
HueMonContact
I see my order on the bottom left! nanners
themanthatwasused
zilaihong wrote:

Err.. sorry to say that your white opaque case is still not done yet... but soon wink, it should be ready today or tomorrow.

Thanks for the heads up MQ!
I really hope that this can be here by Friday so that I can bring it home
sad banana Dead Banana
Repeater
Has anyone in the US received a Rollz-5 PCB yet? I ordered one from the first batch and I've been waiting over a month without any indication in the tracking info that the package has left China yet. This is not a criticism of zilaihong, who shipped promptly and has been pleasant to deal with. Just wondering if anyone else has experienced exorbitant waits and bizarre behavior from the Chinese postal service in case I ever have to ship something to China.
glitchpop
I only ordered last week (second batch). He gave me a tracking number. Not much info on that site yet for me. Did you get a tracking number?
zilaihong
Hi, Repeater, I just pmed you some tracking info, please check that with your local post office.
The normal registered air mail is becoming too slow these days, I'll mark it on the 1st post now.

I've checked the shipping cost of each parcel on my shipping agent's website. Then I found out that I've been losing money for each fedex shipped! Now the fedex price is adjusted.
CJ Miller
Repeater wrote:
Has anyone in the US received a Rollz-5 PCB yet? I ordered one from the first batch and I've been waiting over a month without any indication in the tracking info that the package has left China yet. This is not a criticism of zilaihong, who shipped promptly and has been pleasant to deal with. Just wondering if anyone else has experienced exorbitant waits and bizarre behavior from the Chinese postal service in case I ever have to ship something to China.


The mail is rather slow, which zilaihong mentions in his shipping options. To give you an idea, before the Rollz boards were ready, I ordered some other pcbs to be mailed. Then when I ordered the Rollz about a week later, I had it FedExed. FedEx took around 10 days, while the mailed boards took around a month.

But they did arrive intact, and are beautiful
oljud
Oh wow

Wow
Repeater
zilaihong wrote:
Hi, Repeater, I just pmed you some tracking info, please check that with your local post office.
The normal registered air mail is becoming too slow these days, and I'll ditch it from now on.


Thanks. Looks like I'm getting the same info from USPS as I am from the China Postal Service. No worries. I'm patient. Next time I'll pay for faster shipping.
zilaihong
Thank you CJ Miller!
And thank you for your patience Repeater!
oljud
Ok I'd like a rollz 5 PCB and the banana jacks needed for it.

And I'm also curious about a source for banana jacks for other projects?
HueMonContact
I received my boards yesterday! It took about 10 days to ship to the US
They look great Ming! I'll start building next week.
glitchpop
I got mine yesterday too in Australia. Those Rollz boards are huge! Dono-Kun Dance
HueMonContact
Yeah I was surprised how big the rollz boards are.
Ming did a great job designing them. They look awesome!
zilaihong
Thank you guys for the nice words! And I am glad that they arrived! Have fun building/playing! wink
Repeater
My Rollz-5 PCB showed up safe and sound. SlayerBadger!

zilaihong - You referred to some additional resistors that need to be soldered to the back of the first version of the PCB, yet I can't find info on that now. I'm also wondering if you could label the connections for V+ and ground on the left side of the board for those of us who don't have access to the specific DC jack and switch you indicate on the PCB or don't intend to use board mounted connectors. This is designed for 9V DC like the paper circuit version, right?

Thanks for working on these! As fun as the paper circuit was to build, I'm glad that I can build one of these on a PCB instead. applause
CJ Miller
Repeater wrote:
zilaihong - You referred to some additional resistors that need to be soldered to the back of the first version of the PCB, yet I can't find info on that now.


I was just looking for this also. They are only needed on the first revision of the board. They should be 10k. Don't mean to speak for zilaihong, but I just happened to have the picture handy now.



Repeater wrote:
I'm also wondering if you could label the connections for V+ and ground on the left side of the board for those of us who don't have access to the specific DC jack and switch you indicate on the PCB or don't intend to use board mounted connectors. This is designed for 9V DC like the paper circuit version, right?


The circuit is basically the same, it should run fine with 9v-12v to whatever your parts are rated for. The ceiling would be the max voltage of your electrolytic caps and ICs. As for polarity, I just trace the connections to see which goes to the positive parts supplies and which ground. I am just using a 9V battery clip for now.
fluxmonkey
mine arrived yesterday. thanks a ton, meng!

i'm not clear how the actual rollz circuits get wired up. is the idea to have 36 "cells", and you chain together 3, 4, 5, or 6 (looping back to complete a circle) for each rollz structure? so for instance 1>2>3>4>5>1 fr a 5rollz? the opaque white soldermask, while it looks nice, obscures the tracks and makes it a little hard to suss out the connections.

did anyone ever draw out schematics for these?

b
NS4W
i've added LEDs to all outs of my rolls, this visual spectacle tells me that it gets pretty chaotic fast. i've yet to understand a logic structure of the triggering.
Repeater
fluxmonkey wrote:

i'm not clear how the actual rollz circuits get wired up. is the idea to have 36 "cells", and you chain together 3, 4, 5, or 6 (looping back to complete a circle) for each rollz structure?


It's hard to see because of the soldermask, but they are already connected. From left to right on each row there's a 3-Roll, 4-Roll, 5-Roll and 6-Roll. The first three jacks correspond to the 3-Roll, the next 4 to the 4-Roll, etc. Both rows of Rolls seem to be the same.
fluxmonkey
aces! thx, repeater!
Repeater
NS4W wrote:
i've added LEDs to all outs of my rolls, this visual spectacle tells me that it gets pretty chaotic fast. i've yet to understand a logic structure of the triggering.


I'm thinking about doing this with my new one. Did you use a little LED driver circuit for each one or just run the LEDs directly from the rolls?
NS4W
I used a LED driver. I figured if I used a diode directly I would disrupt the back and forth flow between the rolls patch points (does this make sense?).
It looks like a night sky full of pulsating stars now!
glitchpop
NS4W wrote:
It looks like a night sky full of pulsating stars now!

Love to see some pics!
wednesdayayay
what is in those clouds?
zilaihong
Thank you guys for help explaining!

The 2nd small batch of Rollz-5+ pcb is sold out and the 3rd small batch is being produced!
wednesdayayay
any build progress updates from anyone who has received their board?
glitchpop
wednesdayayay wrote:
any build progress updates from anyone who has received their board?
I'm very happy to post some progress pics as soon as I get started!
fluxmonkey
mine is stuffed, waiting on some rotary switches from mouser for some selector action on the hairy caps and resistors. massive board.
HueMonContact
I'm still waiting for parts to populate this board
Repeater
Mine is mostly stuffed. I'm just trying to decide how complex I want it to be. There could be a rotary switch for every hairy cap, full modularity, tons of mods, etc.

Anyone know if these 9mm Alpha pots will fit on the board?
http://www.mammothelectronics.com/RD901F-40-15R1-B-p/209-100-b.htm
glitchpop
Repeater wrote:


Anyone know if these 9mm Alpha pots will fit on the board?
http://www.mammothelectronics.com/RD901F-40-15R1-B-p/209-100-b.htm


The footprint looks the the same as the pots from this thread https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=76587&postdays=0&pos torder=asc&highlight=glitchpop&start=0

I have a few samples and I checked, these do fit the Men-Qi Rollz-5 board but the ones from the group buy are 100k.

I'm hoping to receive the stock from this group buy order very soon and if it all goes well I'm hoping to do group buys for other values too.
jooks
Got the pcb/bananas! Very nice SlayerBadger! Now I just have to decide what mods to do, case etc....decisions are fun:-)
Many thanks!
zilaihong
Yes it is fun! wink
I really love to see what you guys would come up with with the rollz-5 pcb, pics please! Guinness ftw!
CJ Miller
zilaihong wrote:
Yes it is fun! wink
I really love to see what you guys would come up with with the rollz-5 pcb, pics please! Guinness ftw!


I am still tweaking and modding it, so no case or enclosure yet. I socketed all of the hairy caps and X Y resistors, which increases the vertical clearance quite a bit.





CJ Miller
Info-dump time!

So far, I love it. Many interesting pulses and rumbles and squeals to be discovered. The build was easy, apart from me putting so many sockets on there. I used SIP sockets, trimmed to length, with some hot glue for mechanical support so that the top-heavy component placement would not damage the pads. Note! Do not use alcohol to wash these PCBs! It dissolves the nice glossy coating these are made with. Use water only.

Many of the most interesting cap values so far are the interactions between Rollz of small values (430pF - .01µF) and large values (.47µF - 47µF). Also, everything is very touch sensitive.

The only mystery problem I am trying to sort out: Often everything works fine, but after a while - sometimes minutes sometimes hours - the sound builds up into a crazy swelling drone, and breaks. After this happens, the Rollz sound directly through the outputs, and the av dog and gongs no longer respond as usual. It still sounds great, even when this happens, but I'd rather avoid it. Leaving the unit unplugged for a while resets this behavior back to normal.

Parts guide - these are all verified to fit and work:
power switch - NKK A12JH-RO
output jack - YS215A as indicated, although any stereo Cliff-type jack will work
pots - Alps RK09
banana jacks - uninsulated surplus, maybe Keystone or Emerson. I needed to widen the holes slightly for these.

For further mod ideas, here is a list I made of all of the differences between the paper Rollz5, and the Roolz Gewei:

Rollz:
different resistor values
On the Rollz5, the resistors were all 22k and 470k
On the Gewei, they are mostly 22k and 1M
Also, there is a new added bit on the 4,5, and 6 rollz - LED node pair. Two PNP transistors per Roll, emitters connect to +V, base connects to inside of Roll each through a 47k resistor between existing 22k (47k) and hairy cap, collectors connect to ground through 470Ω resistors. For each Roll transistor tapped with LED indicator, 22k resistors are replaced with 47k. Rest of the Roll stays 22k.

AVdog:
main four caps around TL084 are 1µF on Rollz5, 104 poly on Gewei - the hairy is 104 also
new control input node! at junction of resistor "X", 22k, and TL082 pin 5 - solder a 22k resistor to node
on Rollz5, the 100k resistor from the 100k to the hairy cap has been made 10M on the Gewei

Ultrasound Filters
hairy cap standard at 103 poly for Gewei
3x 1µF electros are 104 poly
R5 100k at TL082s pins 3 and 5 becomes 10k on RG
R5 two pairs of 22k, from rail and cap to TL082 pins 5 become 10k on RG
new control input nodes! where 102 and 10k connect to 4066 pin 12, through 22k, and another connecting to pin 5

Gongs:
1µF bypass cap of R5 omitted
other two 1µF caps now 104 poly
The pair on NPNs which on the R5 connect to the pots through 220Ω resistors are done differently on the RG. On the RG the base of the NPN connects instead to the emitters of PNPs, and the bases of the PNPs connect to pots through 220k resistors. PNP base also has 10k pulldown, and collectors directly tied to ground. NPN base has 10M pullup. The right NPN collector connects through a 470Ω to the junction of nearby hairy and 084 pin 9. Left NPN connects to junction of diode and left 084 pin 2.
New nodes! This pair on the RG connect through a new TL082. Node>22k>pins 1&2, 6&7. Output on pin 3 connects to right 084 pin 9, and output pin 4 connects to left 084 pin 2
bartlebooth
that looks seriously awesome CJ! - nice documentation of the urbanization of the rollz-5 paper circuit villagio. the bottom picture is like pcb fine art photography. applause
mrbloor
Thanks, I have 2 to build and this all helps a lot thumbs up
fluxmonkey
CJ Miller wrote:
Many of the most interesting cap values so far are the interactions between Rollz of small values (430pF - .01µF) and large values (.47µF - 47µF). Also, everything is very touch sensitive.


is that mixed large and small values w/in the same indivudual rollz? or interactions between a rollz w/ smaller values and one w/ larger!

thanks for all the valuable insights! mines getting closer...

b
themanthatwasused
CJ Miller
Thanks Man.
This will be great when I finally get my hands on the PCB.
zilaihong
That's some great info CL Miller! Thank you for sharing them!

And for the drone problem - what votage are you using with it? When I use 12v there is a low drone and when I use 9v it is super clean. Some patches would even mute the whole output and when disconnect some wires, it needs a few seconds to get back into making sound, it is very fun and sensitive so experiment with it.

themanthatwasused I hope you can get your parcel ASAP!
themanthatwasused
It's big ass PCB
HueMonContact
I just saw ya pic on facebook... looking forward to seeing everyone's finished builds.
gwaidan
Very nice!
themanthatwasused
Edit: some mistakes on the BOM when I went thru the build. Taking down this BOM.
Cheers.
thumbs up
themanthatwasused
Started the build on this.
Having a love hate relationship with the boards currently.

Loving the bigass white PCB real steal for the price and a real beauty!
But hate the really close spacing for the resistor pins, and the PCB is a bit unwieldy due to the size.
All in all I am getting really sucked in and have never been this excited in a build. A great gateway drug to the Ciat Lonbarde universe.
Hopefully this wont be my last MQ project.

Great Job zilaihong
thumbs up
zilaihong
Thank you for the nice words! themanthatwasused
Spend some time with it, never rush, and have fun!
When you finish this build, you'll feel like moving onto other CL PCBs and expand your CL system... This is fun!
n8bit
zilaihong
Hi,

I found this kit so interesting sounding that it forced me to finally make an account on this website! I will PM you, this will be a very interesting build. I love the giant PCB, quite awesome, and will make for an interesting case design.
zilaihong
n8bit wrote:
zilaihong
Hi,

I found this kit so interesting sounding that it forced me to finally make an account on this website, hah. I am interested in 1 PCB, shipped to US zip code 89501. When do you expect to be able to ship it?

thanks!

Nate


Well I think I'll be able ship the pack tomorrow or the day after it. wink
Do you want the touchable banana jacks? They cost no additional time.
If you want the acrylic case, there needs to be a few days.
themanthatwasused
My rollz5

Too tired to take her for a spin, hopefully I have not fucked up too much for it not to work properly.
numan7
woah: beautiful panel-work, themanthatwasused! we're not worthy

please, let's hear how she sounds! hyper

cheers
zilaihong
Looks great! applause w00t
themanthatwasused
numan7 zilaihong
Thanks guys! Will report tonight.
glitchpop
CJ Miller wrote:

I really love to see what you guys would come up with with the rollz-5 pcb, pics please! Guinness ftw!

I am still tweaking and modding it, so no case or enclosure yet. I socketed all of the hairy caps and X Y resistors, which increases the vertical clearance quite a bit.







Are those banana sockets you're using? I've never seen anything like that?
CJ Miller
glitchpop wrote:
Are those banana sockets you're using? I've never seen anything like that?


Indeed, nanners they are. They are uninsulated banana jacks. Usually they are just nickel-plated brass with no plastic, hex facets on the panel side, and a threaded nut and washer with a solderable tab for connection. I find them quite handy for touchable circuit i/o, because they can just as easily be used for patching. The only limits to their usefulness are the lack of color-coding, and that they are not practical for mounting in aluminum panels or other conductive surfaces.

Mine I bought as a sack of surplus, so I do not know the manufacturer or part number. On my Rollz5, I had to slightly drill out the nanner holes with the next size bit to fit them. And because the Meng Qi PCB has a contact area around each hole, I didn't need the solder tabs, instead I just tightened them on.

Looking around online, I see some similar kinds. Mouser offers some from Pomona (565-3267) and Johnson/Emerson ( 530-108-0740-1 and 530-108-0740-102). It looks like most of their banana jacks from Keystone are uninsulated. Closest match to mine I am seeing are model #101 on this page:
http://www.abbatron.com/index.php?cPath=29_78_45
glitchpop
Thanks for the info CJ, really nice work! I'm still trying to decide on which parts to use in my build so that's very helpful.

How is the socketed parts experiment going? Worth it? Good results? Have you found any magic values yet? How does the monster sound?

I'd love to hear some sounds hyper
CJ Miller
glitchpop wrote:
Thanks for the info CJ, really nice work! I'm still trying to decide on which parts to use in my build so that's very helpful.


I spent a while pondering which parts to use, would fit, and where to get them. So I can relate. Happy I could be of some help.

glitchpop wrote:
How is the socketed parts experiment going? Worth it? Good results? Have you found any magic values yet? How does the monster sound? I'd love to hear some sounds hyper


The socketed parts are great. For the submodules, I started with values of a similar range to those from Peter's build guide. Those I think are a great starting point, four ranges for four modules of each type. For the rolls caps, I prefer having them socketed. I find that I change and move them often. The submodules are a bit trickier, because a given value might have no apparent effect in one configuration, and a dramatic effect in another. So these I look forward to playing with much more.

The monster does sound interesting. The past few times I have played, I thought about recording some of it. I might set up to record next time before I play. My unit, as it is now, effortlessly yields freaky drones and bleeps. It also is a great rhythm box, but this takes a bit more finesse. Definitely interesting to explore, and I look forward to doing a bit more of this after I get some other sprawling projects finished.

What's awkward about liking this board so much, is that I am really into tweaking it for long-term use. Some tweaks in the works:

power - As zilaihong mentioned, the board is a bit picky about the supply voltage. For instance, a fresh 9V battery works great - but works erratically when below 7V or so. An unregulated wall wart which puts out more like 12V is too much. So, this seems like a board which really benefits from an on-board voltage regulator. Another idea is to use a variable supply and document just how the circuits behave over a useful supply range, and make a "spesal cuck" tuned to this range.

isolation - My unit has some interaction which is not intentional. Some rolls, when patched together, can be heard through the output even without being patched to an output module. So, I am going to look for ways to isolate each roll from each other, and the power rails.

outputs - I see that there are little traces which can be cut for separate outputs. But I would rather have the option of mixed or separate. So I might install switching jacks. One easy solution would be for the PCB to have a two-pin header for each voice. Then one could install a jumper for mixed out, or use the header to easily wire an output jack.

CV inputs - Since I am probably going to install individual outs, this does not leave much room for CV input jacks. I have opted to use turrets for these, since they are so much smaller. I tried using alligator clips directly to the resistors but the leads are too tight. So I can wire turrets to these points underneath.

Then there's the whole matter of whether or not to install the PCB in a box or frame of some kind. I hadn't really thought about it so far. I will probably just screw thick rubber feet onto the mounting holes until I think of something else. Actually... this could enable me to mount the voice outs on the case, and use the holes I drilled for attenuators and inputs instead.

Arg! Feature creep has got me! Got to un-fixate on this for now.
glitchpop
CJ Miller wrote:

Arg! Feature creep has got me! Got to un-fixate on this for now.


No don't! Fixate fixate! everything you are saying sounds awesome to me and if you break the ground then I can just follow along whistling a merry drone hihi

power: good advice I will try a 9v/variable wallwart

isolation: I have noticed most of the paper circuits I've built have quite a bit of "bleed" or noise. If you figure out a way to deal with it I'd love to hear it, although sometimes I enjoy it too.

outputs: yes!

CV inputs: This would be really nice but power and common ground issues may be more trouble than they are worth. But yeah I would love to be able to patch in some of my other homemade CL instruments into this. Not going to risk euro though I don't know enough about power to take the risk (dual vs single PSU).

common ground: Maybe I'll make a little ground box, with a bunch of nana in-outs all wired together, to patch all my CL into. Would it work to just patch the neg of each instrument together like that? Something about that doesn't seem right... hmmm.....
HueMonContact
I just finished my Rollz 5 build late last night, I turned it on for the 1st time this morning and had a really crazy experience, It may have been a coincidence but I had a crazy drone gong with little blips and chirps and a lot of crazy cross modulating high frequencies and BAM! a bird slammed into my studio window and broke his neck My girlfriend and I gave him a proper birdy burial. Pretty trippy morning...

Here's a few pics of the build... I have to finish the faceplate and a little case for it.






R.I.P. lil' birdy...


I need nanners's ASAP so I can patch this little monster up. i'm going to build a 2nd one with different values... I'm totally hooked on Ciat-Lonbarde instruments!
oljud
Anyone have a BOM for this?
fluxmonkey
finished last nite:




selector switches for all the hairy caps and selectable resistor sets. that meant all off-board wiring for panel components, which was a Lot of Flying Wires.

seems a little picky about power, best results so far from full 15v from a linear supply. have all electrolytics in the rollz section, so they are pretty slow... gonna redo one set w/ a mix of some smaller caps to get more vairety. levels on the ultrasound filters seem low, and not getting much touch response action, but i've only played w/ it an hour, more will be revealed.

awesome work meng, thanks as always!

b
Repeater
fluxmonkey wrote:

seems a little picky about power, best results so far from full 15v from a linear supply. have all electrolytics in the rollz section, so they are pretty slow... gonna redo one set w/ a mix of some smaller caps to get more vairety. levels on the ultrasound filters seem low, and not getting much touch response action, but i've only played w/ it an hour, more will be revealed.

awesome work meng, thanks as always!

b


That looks killer! I'm not looking forward to wiring up all the rotary switches on mine: 1 for each Roll and probably all the other hairies.

Regarding the touch response... on my old Rollz-5 it's most noticeable when the geometric Rolls are patched directly to the outputs. Touch response is much more subtle when the Rolls go through the filter modules. Odd Rolls are generally the more chaotic ones. I've found it important to have my 3-Roll or 5-Roll in the patch for finger licking goodness.

You can raise the output volume of your ultrasound filters by lowering the value of the Z resistors.
wednesdayayay
I wonder whats in those clouds, especially since PB seems like he isn't making coco's or plumbutters too soon

you keep me on the edge of my seat seriously, i just don't get it
zilaihong
fluxmonkey Awesome my friend, this is such an superb expanded build!

Yes this circuit is picky about power, and I think with different selection of component values, the power they work best would be different, for example, the paticular build I myself is using works best at 9v (with a switched type psu) and it's very touch sensitive even when using the sound making modules. I touch it and the rhythm would be changed and even muted. grin

Thank you for nice words. wink I really enjoy seeing you guys doing these beautiful machines with my pcbs!
transfixer
could someone please give me a link to the COMPLETE list of components for the rollz 5+ by meng qi?

thank you in advance!
screaming goo yo
glitchpop
There was a BOM floating around but it wasn't accurate I'm not sure anyone has made one. In this vein I have question however.

I tried to upload a pic but it's not working for some reason. All the rows of electrolytic caps across the top of the board are unlabelled. Are they hairy caps? Are they 1uf? Have I missed something. I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been covered in the thread (I looked).

Cheers
zilaihong
Yes they are hariy caps, that you can customize them yourself.
glitchpop
Thanks zilaihong! Thought so but I wanted to check before soldering lol

So any values at all? No range to fit within?

edit: Also I know there has been some talk of power pickyness. If I use a 9V DC wallwart would you recommend 1A? 500mA? ??
zilaihong
You can find all the info about user customizeable components here:
http://ciat-lonbarde.net/rollz5/index.html
wink

And yes it would work, but for your paticular build, you need to experiment with it a bit, try anything between 9-12, or even to 15v. Mine works best at 9 and fluxmonkey's build is at 15v.
Pascal
so does all parts (dogs,gongs,ultra) come out in the stereo jack out, no mixer?, right?
zilaihong
No mixer. It's easy to make one tho, there are points marked on pcb that you can cut and get all the individual "parts".
Pascal
thank you, so it's all parts out in the stereo jack?
zilaihong
My pleasure, yes it is.
fluxmonkey
for the hairy caps in the rolls, i used mostly between 1u and 22u, just a couple of .1 and 47u. for me, it is a little slow, and i'm planning on replacing some with smaller values down to ,01
jooks
zilaihong wrote:
No mixer. It's easy to make one tho, there are points marked on pcb that you can cut and get all the individual "parts".


Im planning on doing a simple mixer for all parts and started looking at this. Am I missing something or all all outputs just hardwired together? Roolz-gewei have only individual outputs (which I thought was quite annoying) and plumbutter a mixer.
zilaihong
It was a mistake by saying "no mixer".
In fact, it is a passive mixer without knobs. I've tried some values to make a balanced sound.
It is more like plumbutter, just you can't adjust the mix.

There are markers on the PCB that you can cut to get the parts individually.
jooks
Ah, thats what I thought. The individual outputs are the ones with a small mark over the pad I guess? Just cut after them?
zilaihong
Yes it is, cut after or between them, and the outputs can be get from the octagon pads.
numan7
w00t here's my first Rollz5 patch:



I purchased the instrument from themanthatwasused. In this patch I was basically just exploring the instrument without knowing what the patch points were (and video synthesis with LZX eurorack, where the Audio Frequency Decoder module is interacting with audio from the Rollz5)... But after an hour or so I had droning, drums and percussion -- all from one patch -- such an awesome instrument!

cheers
mrbloor
Thanks for sharing numan7, must get my arse in gear, I have 2 of these to build. thumbs up
rico loverde
anyone have a part number for the banana jacks that are used in zilaihong's build?
zilaihong
Wow this sounds wonderful! Very peaceful and comfortable to listen to.
Guinness ftw!
themanthatwasused
numan7
Great patch my good man.
Nice to know that it found a great home in your stable of Ciat Lonbarde/ MQ gears.
wavecircle
Is the price on this page right?

http://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/150642798/rollz-5-analog-drum-machine?r ef=shop_home_active

It has the Rollz-5 as £360.

Is the Rollz-5 just a bigger Plumbutter?
CJ Miller
wavecircle wrote:
Is the Rollz-5 just a bigger Plumbutter?


No, it's the grandfather of the PB. Rollz5 was Peter's original paper-circuit drum/drone idea. It was updated with some CV inputs as the Roolz Gewei, and then re-designed with all new circuits and extensive voltage-control as Plumbutter. Another reason why Plumbutter might be smaller is that recent Ciat-Lonbarde instruments have been made with surface mount parts.

If I am not mistaken, the price on the Etsy page is for a pre-assembled unit.
mrbloor
In terms of plumbutter the rolls 5 has more rolls, av dog, gongs & ultrasound but no deerhorn or man with red steam.
wavecircle
It seems like an amazing machine. Is there some kind of master clock on it?
CJ Miller
wavecircle wrote:
It seems like an amazing machine. Is there some kind of master clock on it?


No! IMO, that's the whole point. I hate having a "master clock"! This is why I avoid programming beats on a computer.
mrbloor
[s]http://soundcloud.com/mr-bloor/rollz-5-finally-speaks[/s]




All variables socketed, fun build, I have another when I get some values I'm happy with thumbs up
zilaihong
thumbs up Sweet and organic.
oljud
I also went with the patchable version. Thought I was clever :-)



Still need to buy caps and resistors. What type of capacitors do I need? Polyester? (why?). Will ceramics work for the smaller values?
mrbloor


I went with a mixture of mylar film, poly & electrolytic s.

as they are all swappable gives an opportunity for experimentation
themanthatwasused
mrbloor
Great looking build man.
mrbloor
Thanks, it's a 'euro' in that I used European hardwood, totally stole the design from the brilliant Mr Blasser thumbs up
oljud
Ok then. Just see poly caps mentioned all over the place, in reference to CL stuff. I'll get a mixture.
Jasper
Any chance someone could explain the power situation on this beast? I've got mine all together minus the power/audio jacks (forgot to order em).

Trying to just wire up a 1/4 jack I've got laying aroundaand a 9 volt plug, just not sure what's what on the board.

Basically I'm asking what's what on the part of the board w/the power and audio jack slot.

Cheers!

Soooo close
Jasper
Found an audio jack laying around.

It just drones constantly and plugging in modules they'll work for a second and then stop. Any ideas?
zilaihong
Here is a pic of the power and output jack layout:

Check if you are using the right polarity and change a voltage, e.g, if you are using 12v, change to 9v.
Jasper
Thanks a ton Meng.

Turns out it didn't like the walwart....made this obnoxious drone w/ nothing patched.

Switched to 9v and voila!

I get the feeling that the caps I used for the roll section were too high a value, the pulses are VERY sparse. Maybe it's just my lack of understanding the rolls to begin with? Like most of the modules will make a sound something like once every 20 seconds. Is that normal for the huge caps?

Pretty exciting when the drone finally went away. Now just a matter of finding some values that make it into more percussive sound rather than strange drawn out droney's. Ran out of sockets to do the caps up there, wish I wouldn't have now smile

Cheers!
zilaihong
thumbs up w00t

Yes that's what will happen if you use huge caps... hihi

Have fun!
fluxmonkey
i think this one is kind of sensitive to variations in power... even swapping between 2 different models of 9v supplies seems to make her behave differently, so experiment
Zergon
hi all!
i'm really interrested in building this. is there a BOM?

zilaihong: do you still have pcbs on stock?
zilaihong
Hi, Zergon I believe that there is a BOM in yahoo CL user group called nabra-user, and also you can find some info here:
http://ciat-lonbarde.net/rollz5/index.html

Yes I still have them in stock.
Sickness Device
Anybody making other demos?
Looks interesting, Is it something affordable for a soldiering noobie?
strettara
zilaihong wrote:
Hi, Zergon I believe that there is a BOM in yahoo CL user group called nabra-user, and also you can find some info here:
http://ciat-lonbarde.net/rollz5/index.html

Yes I still have them in stock.


Couldn't find anything on nabra-user (the yahoo groups interface really sucks as well), but I should imagine it's easy enough to work it all out.
mrbloor
Hi Chaps, the pcb is very clear regarding parts. TBH just get the pcb read up on Peters site regarding variable value resistors & capacitors (hairys), then order, get some values regarding Peters recipies, if you build and would like to change some values you could socket or simply desolder & replace. Good luck thumbs up
zilaihong
Yes all compnents on PCB are clearly marked. w00t

Btw, here is the BOM. I never needed one, so I haven't checked this :
Quote:
Rollz-5 Parts


ICs:

4 x [511-TL082CN] (082)
4 x [511-TL084CN] (084)
1 x [511-4013] (4013)
1 x [511-4066] (4066)

11 x [18-1N914] diode
36 x PNP transistor ([512-BC557B], BC558B, BC559B)
12 x NPN transistor ([512-BC547B], BC548B, BC549B)



Capacitors:

25 x 1uF electrolytic [140-XRL25V1.0]
15 x .01uF (103) [140-PF2A103K]
8 x .001uF (102)
5 x .1uF
5 x .047uF
5 x .47uF
1 x 100uF
6 x 47uF

Resistors:

1 x 330
1 x 2.2k
2 x 4.7k
17 x 10k
49 x 22k
22 x 100k
14 x 220k
24 x 470k
3 x 2.2m


Hardware:

6 x 10k pots
1 x 1m trim pot
1 x 2.2m trim pot
2 x 100k trim pot


-------------

Hairy parts: (already included)

5 x .1uF
6 x 1uF
5 x .047uF
5 x .47uF
6 x 47uF
5 x .01uF
1 x 100uF

1 x 2.2m
2 x 100k
3 x 22k
2 x 10k
1 x 2.2k
1 x 330 ohm

1 x 1m trim pot
1 x 2.2m trim pot
2 x 100k trim pot
strettara
Thanks MQ, that's a great help!
wednesdayayay
wow as I am learning more and more about DIY electronic this build seems more and more feasible
themanthatwasused
Damn, I want to build this again.
Klipspringer
wednesdayayay wrote:
wow as I am learning more and more about DIY electronic this build seems more and more feasible

I suspect it will be and I ordered a couple of boards earlier this week from M.Q.

If you look at the board you can see that there's a lot of space between components. I've built quite a few HF radios and can tell you that this is a very nicely laid out board that should not present any issues.

For a small additional fee I got the chips and sockets as well as banana jacks. So you just need a few common transistors, caps, and resistors.

The only "challenging" parts might be the pots, but C.J. Miller assures us that ALPS RK09 will work (Mouser 688-RK09L114001T).
zilaihong
Thank you.

I also have a number of APCS / Grassi / DDDM2 and a few pieces of Namastitar PCB.

Guinness ftw!
strettara
All I've ever done before is the Turing machine, but what the hell. It doesn't look very complicated. I'm thinking of mounting two boards in an old 6Ux104hp skiff I have with a wooden face plate with nails hammered through it as crocodile clip patch points - should work OK? I want it to be as different as possible from the modular.
zilaihong
The 2014 Revision 3 PCB is out so let me bump this! w00t
themanthatwasused
Great News.
zilaihong
Will send a PM soon!
zilaihong
Video demo uploaded for vactrol controlled power starve feature - please check out the 1st post! w00t
strettara
Just got my two pcb's, now to order the parts w00t
zilaihong
strettara wrote:
Just got my two pcb's, now to order the parts w00t
Ginko
I am going to have to do this I think This is fun!

How compatible would it be with Euro? could I use jacks instead of bananas or build a jack to nana convertor?
Ginko
Would it be like a dog having sex with a whale? or a cat having sex with a tiger?
kozepz
zilaihong wrote:
The 2014 Revision 3 PCB is out so let me bump this! w00t


Fantastic, still interested in building one. You can never have enough gongues and rollz.

What are the additional controls related to the different elements?
8 rollz
4 x AV dog
4 x ultrasound
4 x gongue
zilaihong
Ginko There is only 1 CV input on Rollz-5+ - the vactrol controlled power starve. So you will be mostly taking signals from Rollz-5+ to your Euro. I've tested driving the power stave input with Eurorack with nice result.

You may need to install the 1/8 jacks on a faceplate and wire them to the Rollz-5+ PCB. Or use this to turn your other gears Banana format : https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=109207

kozepz There is 1 addtional knob which is the power stave, it interacts with all parts on the PCB which is crazy + weird + cool, check out the demo video in the 1st post.

There are also 8 trimmers that control the gongue pitches.
kozepz
zilaihong wrote:
Ginko There is only 1 CV input on Rollz-5+ - the vactrol controlled power starve. So you will be mostly taking signals from Rollz-5+ to your Euro. I've tested driving the power stave input with Eurorack with nice result.

You may need to install the 1/8 jacks on a faceplate and wire them to the Rollz-5+ PCB. Or use this to turn your other gears Banana format : https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=109207

kozepz There is 1 addtional knob which is the power stave, it interacts with all parts on the PCB which is crazy + weird + cool, check out the demo video in the 1st post.

There are also 8 trimmers that control the gongue pitches.


Awesome! thumbs up
wednesdayayay
hmm the rollz 5 is still speaking with me

but vavavoom the new preset volt controller type looks great woah
I hope it can still be standalone
or what is the cheapest little boat I could put 4 or 6 modules in if not
zilaihong
Loads of new Rollz-5+ PCB in stock, order right away. by Meng Qi, on Flickr
fluxmonkey
not to jump the gun, but....

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mengqimusic/13988300011/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mengqimusic/13991595554/

voltage controlled memory?!? do tell!
wednesdayayay
Yeah I'm ready to buy a little standalone mv controller whenever it is available
pugix
zilaihong wrote:
There are also 8 trimmers that control the gongue pitches.


Presumably these could be brought out to panel pots.
dnode
Two rev3's received, they look awesome ... communication/transaction with MQ was very pleasant and satisfactory!
Ginko
Cool! Should be getting one soon!
zilaihong
dnode wrote:
Two rev3's received, they look awesome ... communication/transaction with MQ was very pleasant and satisfactory!


Thank you for your nice words! w00t
Enjoy building/playing it!
thetwlo
just received mine, the case and board are gorgeous!!!
great communication and shipping.
Would love a proper BOM, wasn't sure what value the rows of electrolytics are at the top--don't see a marking on those, but from the pic of the last rev, at least the second row varies? not even all electos? I assume that's a part that varies.
There's a lot more here than listed on Peter's BOM, excited!
zilaihong
Thank you thetwlo

Also please notice the power stave pot (right under the vactrol) should be a 1k, there are 4 pcbs with 10k mark there.

Also the 1k pot in the pack is with D shaft, there is also 1 D shaft knob in each knob pack.
wednesdayayay
Is there anything that is needed that doesn't come included in the parts pack?
I need to get a new soldering iron as the one I found secondhand isn't cutting it anymore.


Do you still offer the grassic organ PCBs and could they come with parts as well?

Also what are the little ribbon PCBs you have if they are available are they meant for the softpot linear potentiometer or for a fsr (or both like on the expander MQ)

I have a couple ideas for some PCBs to produce but I need some more soldering time before I dive into that

And finally is the new voltage controller able to be controlled by a computer via something like maxmsp to send out voltages on the pins of the teensy (if infant it is a teensy heart) or is the USB port not reachable. This wouldn't be my main usage but it sure would be nice to send out the shnths bars and corps all separately.
zilaihong
All those resistors, capacitors, trimmers... are not in the pack.

I still offer Grassi, and I can offer parts like speakers, audio jacks, battery holder, ICs, but again not smaller parts like resistors, capacitors...

Yes the ribbon pcb is for both softpot and fsr.

For that useage I would recommend something like http://www.phidgets.com/
They even have Max externals so that's the easiest to use for sending anything from Max.
pugix
Mine arrived. It's peanut butter jelly time!

I see that the resistors need to be 1/8 watt. So much for my huge 1/4 watt stock. d'oh!

This is going to be fun. Making my own case and haven't even started on designing it.
zilaihong
Thanks for the update pugix!
Btw I use all 1/4w resistors, why do you think it needs to be 1/8w?
Looking forward to see some pics and videos of your build!
fluxmonkey
i've used 1/4watt for my ming builds... sharp bends right at the end of the body, sometimes a little snug but doable.
pugix
zilaihong wrote:
Thanks for the update pugix!
Btw I use all 1/4w resistors, why do you think it needs to be 1/8w?
Looking forward to see some pics and videos of your build!


The holes on this board are too small for 1/4w resistor leads.

I tested IC sockets. Sockets with round machined-pin leads will fit, but normal ones don't.
thetwlo
pugix wrote:
The holes on this board are too small for 1/4w resistor leads.


The cheaper ones(Tayda) are fine, the Xicon from Mouser are tight but the ones I tested did fit, as did the KOA Speer 1/4w. I can see how some(older ones?) may not fit, but many brands do fit.
pugix
No way my Mouser 1/4w resistor leads will fit the holes in this board. I have to order 1/8w.

BTW, I was wondering if there's a schematic for this board. I'm going to have to draw each of the circuits out.
pugix
I drew out the Ultrasound schematic. It looks the same as the paper circuit. But I think I've found a mistake. The 'mido' voltage reference for pin 5 of the TL082 (and also the 100K from pin 3) is made of a voltage divider of two 22K resistors with a 1uf bypass cap. The new PC board seems to be missing the 22K across the cap to ground. It's clearly visible in this image, just to the right of the 'obelisk' power inlet.
pugix
I continued drawing out the schematics, today with AV Dog. It is so different from Plumbutter AV Dog! I'm planning to add an Aux input and an Oscillator output to these, plus on/off switch for the Oscillator through AV Dog.

I'll eventually put up images of my schematic drawings.
wednesdayayay
fantastic sounding work @ pugix
Ginko
pugix wrote:
I continued drawing out the schematics, today with AV Dog. It is so different from Plumbutter AV Dog! I'm planning to add an Aux input and an Oscillator output to these, plus on/off switch for the Oscillator through AV Dog.

I'll eventually put up images of my schematic drawings.


Cool, please do!
Selador
Can we just admire for a moment that this sort of conversation, one associated mostly with literature, philosophy, and art and such, is being conducted over circuitry?
Maybe I'm waxing misty-eyed, but it's when the rigid (not even rigid, just accepted, I suppose) rules are broken to serve a unique purpose that I find meaning and a little bit of joy in what is baseline or functional.
lintfresh
Okay, seems silly that this awesome project doesn't have a proper BOM so here's mine. The one listed a few pages back is so wrong I wonder if it's even for the same circuit.

Quote:

BOM
Rollz-5+ PCB by Meng Qi Music
----------------------------------

ICs/Semi's:

8 x [511-TL082CN] (082)
8 x [511-TL084CN] (084)
2 x [511-4013] (4013)
2 x [511-4066] (4066)
4 x [18-1N914] diode
1 x 1N4007 diode
24 x PNP transistor [512-BC557B] (557)
60 x NPN transistor [512-BC547B] (547)

----------------------------------
Capacitors:

1 x 10uF electrolytic
30 x 1uF electrolytic
24 x .01uF (103)
16 x .001uF (102)
3 x .1uF (104)

----------------------------------
Resistors:

4 x 220
1 x 1k
4 x 4.7k
32 x 10k
4 x 15k
88 x 22k (includes the 4 needed for Ultrasound fix)
4 x 47k
44 x 100k
28 x 220k
36 x 470k
4 x 1m
4 x 2.2m

----------------------------------
Hardware/misc:

1 x vactrol
17 x 10k pots
4 x 1m pots
8 x 2m 3296W trimpots
1 x 9v - 15v power supply (circuit spec'd for 9v, but different folks have had different results�)
banana jacks
IC sockets
standoffs
mounting hardware

----------------------------------
Variable Parts:

resistors...
8 "x" 2m2 - 22k (avdog undulation speed - 2m2 is extra slow, 22k is fast)

"Hairy" capacitors�
4x 10uf - 100uf electrolytic (avdog undulation sensitivity - 10uf is "sensitive", 100uf is "extra sensitive")
4x 47uf - .1uf ("rhythm slow to fast")
36x rolls caps (Peter B says .1uf and up. Although it looks like folks are using stuff between .01uf-ish and 100uf-ish, but mostly in the .1uf to 47uf range�)


I just ordered from this so it's not confirmed 100% yet. I'll share my mouser cart too if anyone wants it.

Please let me know if you find errors.
pugix
What about the mistake on the Ultrasounds, Meng Qi? Shouldn't a 22K resistor be added to each of these?
zilaihong
pugix wrote:
What about the mistake on the Ultrasounds, Meng Qi? Shouldn't a 22K resistor be added to each of these?


Thank you pugix! I am in Paris now (performing tonight) and just got some time to sit down and check the circuit. You said that I've missed one resistor and as I just checked, in fact I've missed two per ultrasound. d'oh!

It is very easy to fix tho, the method is like the pic in attachment, it shows the back of the PCB, you can solder the legs of resistors on the pins of the IC sockets and the space there would fit them nicely.

The ultrasound will work (make sounds) without the 4 22k resistors, it may be better sounding with them!

Sorry everyone for the extra work!

And thank you lintfresh! That BOM is very useful! Maybe there needs to be 4 more 22k resistors in the BOM.

Btw, welcome to my concert tonight if you happen to be in Paris today : https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1564052#1564052

Cheers! Guinness ftw!
Ginko
Thanks the three of you SlayerBadger!
lintfresh
zilaihong wrote:

And thank you lintfresh! That BOM is very useful! Maybe there needs to be 4 more 22k resistors in the BOM.


BOM updated. Thanks for the beautiful design zilahong!

I wonder if it would be possible to get an English translation of the labeling on the case?

Hope your show goes well. Beautiful theater!

Good eye on that resistor error, pugix. applause
Ginko
lintfresh wrote:

I wonder if it would be possible to get an English translation of the labeling on the case?


Where is the fun in that? hihi
lintfresh
Ginko wrote:

Where is the fun in that? hihi


Ha! Good point thumbs up
Ginko
I want to use individual header pin sockets for all the variables on my build as some other people have suggested on here, can I get any advise on doing this, mainly, can anyone point me to the product I need? I'm guessing you can get snap-able strips of socketed header pins or something?

EDIT: is there something more elegant than snapping rows of these?: http://www.taydaelectronics.com/connectors-sockets/pin-headers/40-pin- 2-54-mm-single-row-female-pin-header.html

These ones look handy as break aways, but also look a little shallow: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10pcs-1x40-Pin-Single-Row-2-54mm-Round-Femal e-Header-/151304739534?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&has h=item233a771ace
mrbloor


I used something similar to that ebay link, just removed all the plastic and just used individual pins. It worked out ok, probably could do with some hot glue around them for support.
bens
Thanks, Ginko and mrbloor. Those sockets look great. I just had this exact question, too.
Ginko
Ok cool, and thanks thumbs up
glitchpop
I did the same but I left the plastic on. The trouble I've found is that with the component sockets and board mounted pots and banana plugs there's basically no case that will fit it. It's usable as an exposed board but very fragile, I took it to one gig and it was basically toast before I even got started. So my advice is socketing components is great for variation/ testing the circuit but not very durable.
Ginko
glitchpop wrote:
I did the same but I left the plastic on. The trouble I've found is that with the component sockets and board mounted pots and banana plugs there's basically no case that will fit it. It's usable as an exposed board but very fragile, I took it to one gig and it was basically toast before I even got started. So my advice is socketing components is great for variation/ testing the circuit but not very durable.


Right ok, I have the acrylic case on the way and I need everything to fit inside that. Durability is important as well as I will almost certainly be using it out the house!
Ginko
By the way, is there really 60 NPN transistors???

EDIT: just counted, indeed there are!!
Ginko
Aw yeah...



lintfresh
Ginko wrote:
By the way, is there really 60 NPN transistors???

EDIT: just counted, indeed there are!!


I was suprised too! woah

Meng Qi, any more info on specs for the vactrol? I guess in this instance light/dark resistances are all that really matter, yes?
Ginko
The PCB itself is labelled "DIY" so I guess his build uses and LED/LDR combo (I'm just speculating here).

I have some homemade ones, VacTec and Silonex vactrols in my drawers, not sure what to use yet. I wonder if reaction time makes much difference?
Ginko
Ok, so I have my first build 99% finished, but I have some problems.

I don't really know how to play it but I tried tying some of the Rollz together (both in the groups and between the groups) and then tried patching these to the Auto-V Dogs and Ultrasounds and Gongs but can't get much going, or anything really - I'm not sure if I have misunderstood...

Something that isn't helping at all is the power starve, and it's a little dodgey as well. I used a Silonex vactrol, I'm not sure which way to turn the pot to change the effect, when it is turned fully clockwise, nothing happens at all soundwise, when I turn it fully counter clockwise, sound pops in right at the end - and I mean pops. It has been accompanied by a burning smell which I think is coming from the 1K pot controlling the voltage starve. Which way am I meant to turn that pot? The pot doesn't seem to be working so well now either - after just a couple of wiggles.

The sound I got was just kinda droney, no percussive type sounds, but then I haven't explored the machine at all to know really what I am doing.

Any suggestions on a systematic approach to this? Can I bypass the voltage starve just to figure out where I am at?

EDIT: Ok, when I get sound I can confirm it is only noise, sounds like ground hum. With the power starve, is the vactrol a resistor between +V and ground? so when resistance is low the voltage drops? or is it a resistor in series with +V to the rest of the circuit (so high resistance drops voltage)?
zilaihong
Ginko The power stave is bypassed if pot turned fully anti-clockwise. Also by shorting the 3 pads for the 1k pot you also bypass it. Do this and check to see if other parts of your build works.
Ginko
No luck, the pot for the power starve is knackered - it was popping in and out at first at fully anti-clockwise but not working at all now except for a bit of crackle. But the problem isn't just the pot as I did try to bypass it. With a 9V supply I get a little fuzzy drone, with 12V I just get what sounds like ground hum.

I did however notice that I had missed out the two 1mf capacitors at the very top left of the PCB next to the Rollz section - I soldered these in but the instrument is still behaving exactly the same way. Could something have been damaged by these not being in place? It looks like the circuit would just be broken so I can't see how it would do anything serious.

I'm guessing there must either be a short somewhere that I can't see or there is a problem with the supply - as nothing is working at all.

Oh well. Tomorrow I am going to check over the 22k resistors that Pugix noticed were missing - I have soldered these in but might just try removing them now in case I have made a mistake there - everything else looks pretty tidy
zilaihong
Might be a short somewhere, I never burnt my 1k pot on the one I built with 9 or 12v supply.

Send me 2 big photos of the front and back of your pcb to my email. I'll try to help you checking it. Tho I will be on a plane in a few following hours.
Ginko
Nice one Zilaihong, I will try to get pics over to you today, no rush though as I am busy till the weekend now... Oo and going to see Oneohtrix Point Never on the weekend!
Ginko
http://aidanrichardtaylor.wordpress.com/temprollz5pcb/

Ok, load of pics on that page, did it a little quickly this morning so some pics are a little blurry - I will try to fix that later, have some boring shit to do now. (Click on photos to enlarge)

Tried removing the 22k resistors and tried using a battery at the + - supply points but no differences here - there were some more musical sounding drones for a few seconds when I plugged in the battery that slowly descended in pitch but then stopped, didn't sound very Rollz like anyway.

Super appreciate anyone checking this out for me!! I almost always have some problem to fix when I build a PCB, but they normally partially work so it is easy to diagnose and fix the problem, I am poking around in the dark here!!
Ginko
Any love me hearties?

hope you had a safe trip Meng Qi!
zilaihong
Ginko wrote:
Any love me hearties?

hope you had a safe trip Meng Qi!


Thanks! wink

I can't find problems with these pics. Here are some ways to test :
1) take out the vactrol and starve pot, short the connectors for starve pot to bypass them;
2) Multimeter test power supply, +V and GND pin on each IC.
Ginko
Ok cool, tomorrow will be the day I fix it!!!
Ginko
Right, checked every IC. Power at jack is giving around abouts +9V every IC is receiving about +8.2V - which I guess should be ok?

I think I know what the problem is, but don't know how to address it: it seems that none of the Rollz section is working - I can get Ultrasounds and the Gongues to trigger, the Ultrasound is putting out cosmic radio wave style sound and the Gongues are putting out bongo type sounds - I can trigger them by circuit bending to some points on the PCB. Not sure if there is a way like this I can test the Auto-V Dogs, but it does seem that the Rollz just aren't Rollzing - can anybody give me some reference points I can test against my build? Or suggestions on what to check?
Ginko
I am really really sorry to continue de-railing this thread, I was just looking at the Paper Circuits Rollz 5, and there is a diode on each of the Rollz - but it's not on the PCB - unless I have missed it... Could this be the problem?

I also used some poly film 0.1mf caps in the rollz - these are non-polar, I guess these are the last things I can think of.

Peter B said he used 0.1mf "green polys" in his paper circuits - is that something different to poly film?

Edit: Replaced the poly film caps with 1mf caps - no luck here either waah I'm going to get the oscilloscope on the Rollz next I guess - I think they are putting out a constant +V but need to check again. When I plug any Rollz node into a Gongue, it triggers once. The Ultrasounds don't do anything when patched with the Rollz nodes

Has anybody else actually finished a revision 3 PCB yet?
zilaihong
Don't worry about the diode, those are just for polarity protection.

How much value you put into the rollz? Just patch a 2/4 roll into gongue and wait LONG enough to see if it triggers again.

To get nice ultrasound response, try patching complex rollz signal and send it to ultrasound.

Good luck. w00t
Ginko
I used values between 0.1mf and 100mf following the paper circuits description. My first 3 Rollz goes 1mf - 4.4mf - 10mf, that should pulse fairly regularly right?
mmelnick
Do you have a list of things for sale?
zilaihong
Ginko Use 2/4 roll for testing 1st.
mmelnick List is in the 1st post.
Ginko
What do you mean by 2/4 roll? razz
zilaihong
A new video : http://instagram.com/p/pWPiWjLvOu/ Guinness ftw!
thelizard
lintfresh wrote:
Okay, seems silly that this awesome project doesn't have a proper BOM so here's mine. The one listed a few pages back is so wrong I wonder if it's even for the same circuit.

Quote:

BOM
Rollz-5+ PCB by Meng Qi Music
----------------------------------

ICs/Semi's:

8 x [511-TL082CN] (082)
8 x [511-TL084CN] (084)
2 x [511-4013] (4013)
2 x [511-4066] (4066)
4 x [18-1N914] diode
1 x 1N4007 diode
24 x PNP transistor [512-BC557B] (557)
60 x NPN transistor [512-BC547B] (547)

----------------------------------
Capacitors:

1 x 10uF electrolytic
30 x 1uF electrolytic
24 x .01uF (103)
16 x .001uF (102)
3 x .1uF (104)

----------------------------------
Resistors:

4 x 220
1 x 1k
8 x 4.7k
32 x 10k
4 x 15k
84 x 22k (includes the 4 needed for Ultrasound fix)
44 x 100k
28 x 220k
36 x 470k
4 x 1m
4 x 2.2m

----------------------------------
Hardware/misc:

1 x vactrol
17 x 10k pots
4 x 1m pots
8 x 2m 3296W trimpots
1 x 9v - 15v power supply (circuit spec'd for 9v, but different folks have had different results�)
banana jacks
IC sockets
standoffs
mounting hardware

----------------------------------
Variable Parts:

resistors...
8 "x" 2m2 - 22k (avdog undulation speed - 2m2 is extra slow, 22k is fast)

"Hairy" capacitors�
4x 10uf - 100uf electrolytic (avdog undulation sensitivity - 10uf is "sensitive", 100uf is "extra sensitive")
4x 47uf - .1uf ("rhythm slow to fast")
36x rolls caps (Peter B says .1uf and up. Although it looks like folks are using stuff between .01uf-ish and 100uf-ish, but mostly in the .1uf to 47uf range�)


I just ordered from this so it's not confirmed 100% yet. I'll share my mouser cart too if anyone wants it.

Please let me know if you find errors.


If you could share your Mouser cart, I would really appreciate it! I don't have a lot of experience with ordering components, and am always worried that I would miss some minor detail.
pugix
Ginko wrote:
I used values between 0.1mf and 100mf following the paper circuits description. My first 3 Rollz goes 1mf - 4.4mf - 10mf, that should pulse fairly regularly right?


I breadboarded up some Rollz circuits today, 2, 3, 4 and 5 rollz. The 3 and 5 rollz oscillated at about 100 KHz with 1uf caps. Is this normal? (I used 2N3904 transistors, but they should work.) For the 2 and 4, I got nice square waves using 1uf or 0.1uf caps in all positions. I found that putting one smaller cap in with three larger ones changed the pulse widths.

If I don't find a way to make the 3 and 5 Rollz oscillate at LFO frequencies, I'm just going to build them as 2 and 4 Rollz.
wednesdayayay
I would love to see some breadboard pictures if you get a chance pugix

I took a shot at doing a paper circuit before I knew anything about electronics (3 roll) and it made some noise but it didn't fully work.
regenbot
I finished mine today and it seems that the left half is working(great infact love it although i have no idea what i'm doing), but the second half doesn't seem to work.

I had to use 500k pots in place of the 1M, but surely this would no case it to be complitely mute?

Anyone have idea what vould be the cause of half working half not?
regenbot
hmm, it might have been a issue of a bad cable, but still not quite working yet.

On Right side 4013 gets quite hot fast, so i guess there's a short somewhere hmmm..... Just have to find it. No luck so far.
regenbot
I think i found it w00t The 4013 chip itself is faulty, now i only need to get a new chip and i'm done.

edit : Found one from my drawer w00t
pugix
I decided to make 8 2-Rollz LFOs. I don't get the point of 4- and 6-Rollz, since the nodes are just duplication. The 3- and 5-Rollz don't oscillate, they only product ultrasonics (100 Khz). My 2-Rollz will have an output (10K from one of the collectors, like in Plumbutter), plus an LED monitoring the output, made from a Ken Stone CGSLD board. The 2 transistor base nodes will also be brought out. Each 2-Rollz will use 4 panel spots: 3 jacks and 1 LED. I chose the capacitors (same cap value in both sides of each Rollz) in microfarads: 0.22, 0.33, 0.47, 0.68, 1.0, 2.2, 3.3, 4.7. The range of beats produced falls totally within the useful range (approximately 25 to 250 BPM). Patching nodes together makes complex pulses.
Ginko
I still haven't had any luck with either of my PCBs I tried replacing the large caps on my first one and built the second one with generally smaller caps - what kind of range are people using?

On both my PCBs the voltage starve pot burned out pretty much immediately - I am pretty certain there is no short circuit anywhere on either board, all IC's are receiving a decent voltage from the supply. All Rollz just seem to hang at a couple of volts, no movement at all.

I can entice some sounds out of the Gongues and Ultrasounds but that is it. What range of caps did you use regenbot?
regenbot
Hmm... I'm not even sure what is what oops

I have now 10uf-100uf caps on the upper most part where there is hairy resistors too.

I noticed that the 4013 chips damaged when power is on without the hairy cap on Gongs the lowes part.
zilaihong
A new video: http://instagram.com/p/p1S4oErvAu/
Power starve driven by a s/h cv. smile Nice sounding. Guinness ftw!

Good luck with your build Ginko.
pugix
I've posted schematics and described my modifications for my project with this board.

http://pugix.com/synth/rollz-5-schematics/

Cheers. Guinness ftw!
glitchpop
Thanks Richard very generous of you to share and will help me understand my boards and my PB a lot better cheers. Guinness ftw!
lintfresh
thelizard wrote:

If you could share your Mouser cart, I would really appreciate it! I don't have a lot of experience with ordering components, and am always worried that I would miss some minor detail.


Oh crap, sorry thelizard, I totally missed this before!

Here's the cart I ordered from:
http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=b3fb6 bc9c3

It does NOT include the following:
- anything in Meng's parts kit (ics, sockets, pots, etc...)
- Power supply
- Case hardware (screws, standoffs, etc)
- Variable parts

Happy building!
lintfresh
pugix wrote:
The 3 and 5 rollz oscillated at about 100 KHz with 1uf caps. Is this normal?

If I don't find a way to make the 3 and 5 Rollz oscillate at LFO frequencies, I'm just going to build them as 2 and 4 Rollz.


Richard, my understanding is that the point of the odd numbered rollz is to in fact provide ultrasonic material for the Ultrasound filters to translate. I don't think they are supposed to create "drum" style pulses like the 4 and 6 rolls. I got really bizarre and interesting sounds patching the 3 and 5's into the Ultrasounds, especially when cross-patching them with the other rollz.
wednesdayayay
the yellow reference of the ultrasound into a node on the three roll with the speed of the three roll set to very slow provides great birdy sounds
thelizard
lintfresh wrote:
thelizard wrote:

If you could share your Mouser cart, I would really appreciate it! I don't have a lot of experience with ordering components, and am always worried that I would miss some minor detail.


Oh crap, sorry thelizard, I totally missed this before!

Here's the cart I ordered from:
http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=b3fb6 bc9c3

It does NOT include the following:
- anything in Meng's parts kit (ics, sockets, pots, etc...)
- Power supply
- Case hardware (screws, standoffs, etc)
- Variable parts

Happy building!


Awesome, thanks! I'm still deciding whether to tackle this or not. I've had some bad luck with soldering, but this is just too intriguing. I'm in love with the Shnth and want to try out one of Peter's analog designs.
Ginko
holdonaminute - Richard you used 470K resistors in the Rollz?

...

...

...I think i might have used 470ohm...
Ginko
Fucks sakes lol yeah i did Dead Banana

I've only been crying over this for about a month
zilaihong
Congratulations Ginko! Finally you've found your mistake! wink
Guinness ftw!
zilaihong
thelizard I also provide finished units if you are afraid of messing one up when soldering. wink
Ginko
OMFFFFG it's alive!!

Rollz seem to be working finally
Gongues seem to definitely work
Auto-VDogs, do these modulate the Rollz rhythms? that seems to be the case

Ultrasounds don't seem to be doing much - I haven't added the 22K resistor that was missed from the PCB yet but will try that next

It works fine from a 9V battery as well w00t w00t w00t

EDIT: Ok Ultrasounds seem to be working - everything seems to be working ok but I need to replace the 1K pot that was initially fried

I don't think the Auto-VDogs are working right yet either after reading Richards blog post some more
Ginko


Again, sorry for spamming the shit out of this thread... but then again, why not?

Yeah I think I just have some problems with the Auto-VDogs now, as in, the envelopes just ain't triggering at all. I will go over them in detail to make sure there isn't another fuck-up

Thanks so much though to Richard for posting those schematics that helped me realise my mistake - and sorry to Zillahong for suggesting there was a PCB error early on!
lintfresh
Ginko wrote:

Auto-VDogs, do these modulate the Rollz rhythms? that seems to be the case


Glad your unit is finally working!

Sorry if you've already tried this, but:
The AVDogs are supposed to take a pulse from the Rolls and produce an undulating tone. They don't seem to do anything with ultrasonic stuff so when you're testing them make sure you use a EVEN numbered rolls output to trigger them. So plug in a 4 or 6 roll to test.

Hope this helps.
Ginko
lintfresh wrote:
Ginko wrote:

Auto-VDogs, do these modulate the Rollz rhythms? that seems to be the case


Glad your unit is finally working!

Sorry if you've already tried this, but:
The AVDogs are supposed to take a pulse from the Rolls and produce an undulating tone. They don't seem to do anything with ultrasonic stuff so when you're testing them make sure you use a EVEN numbered rolls output to trigger them. So plug in a 4 or 6 roll to test.

Hope this helps.


You're glad?!! Dead Banana razz jus kiddin, cheers!

Yeah, I feel a lot more comfortable with how the instrument works thanks to Richard's schematics and description - I think I tried that already but will properly check tomorrow
Ginko
Aha, I think I found my Auto-VDog problem - it was that sneeky 547 hidden amongst the gang of 557 trannies!

Yep that fixed it! Everything seems to be working on the one PCB now!
zilaihong
Ginko Congratulations!

Btw : info about standoffs for my acrylic Rollz-5+ case is added to the 1st post. wink
Selador
love



About the clearest explanation I can do without talking about mushroom planets, I think.

High quality audio here:

[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/158421853" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_use r=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]
lintfresh
Hey, that unit looks familiar!

How those hairy values working out for ya' Selador?

thumbs up
Selador
lintfresh, I love it! I've been swamped the last week, and I finally had a chance to delve into it. After playing a little bit of mix and match with the sockets, I got something that sounded like the CL sounds in my head, and have loved it ever since. A dash of ErbeVerb, and I'm lost for hours.

Playing it, it kind of strikes me a bit as sounding a bit like Albert Ayler's music, to be honest. Not literally, but the ethos and overall feeling. Or, that might be the performers tendencies, finding Ayler in the instrument..

Guinness ftw! [/b]
Ginko
Nice one! As someone mentioned much earlier in this thread, the ROllz 5 has a lovely gamelan kind of sound which I love. I think it will be good to bring those pitch trimmers out to some pots at some point, perhaps mounted on the side of the case.

I have been wondering - will it be safe to patch the Rollz 5 with some other gear? I have nearly finished my MFOS Synth DIY Experimenter (only been working on it since November Dead Banana ) and I'm going to bananafy my Benjolin today, I'm pretty sure the Benjolin and SDIYE will patch together nicely as they both run from a pair of batteries, so +/-9V. I'm not sure how compatible it will be with the Rollz though.

I'm guessing that using triggers between the devices should be cool, but oscillators and LFOs might not be as they oscillate around 0V (that said I think the SDIYE oscillators stay in the positive region).

The Benjolin has the Rungler output and the XOR outputs which are very fun to patch with other gear - it would be great if I can use these with the Ultrasound inputs, and also great to take the Rollz outputs to the other instruments. I guess I will take some oscilloscope readings to check what everything is doing.

But the bottom line is going into negative voltage is potentially bad for Rollz 5 right?
Ginko
PS I want a detailed description of Mushroom Planet sonics please. With bullet points hihi
Ginko


I had a little play taking Rollz outputs to the osc and filter inputs on the Benjolin (couldn't resist tweaking the Benjolin of course) - I guess it is a little hard to tell what is going on, but I was getting that nice kind of pulsing effect out from the Rollz - I imagine you could get a nice combination of syncopated sounds if both devices were playing together, but I didn't have a mixer to hand - might do a bit of this later and get the soundcard out as well

I measured all the outputs on the two devices this morning, the Rollz put out some interesting waveforms! All of the outputs on the Benjolin however are bipolar, even the pulse and XOR outputs, so I am afraid to mix those over right now. Would like to hear what people think though thumbs up
wednesdayayay
the mushroom mall is talked about in the "shnth comes to england" short

"sh is the sound of data
bobo is the gesture"

wow the benjolin seems like a great play date for the rollz
Ginko
We're talking about Mushroom Planets here though... Planets!!
wednesdayayay
ah yes mushroom planet


I once heard mushroom planet exists atop the head of a small man who lives at the crest of your left ear and when him hears them bell tones he slips his head into your ear so as to allow a closer transfer of planet to brain communication. While he is doing this a viscous gray ooze slip slops from his ears so as to communicate communication lubrication. Which then tips your ear off to start slowly undulating at the opening for two reasons. One it allows a sort of air pressure to be created which bribes the grooze ever closer to the brain-heart. This allows for A Complete Transfer© of millennium old mycelial memories to "the return plan" then to "ME" (which is each one of us){M.ushroomE.nthusiasts}. Two it also starts a process of pushing the small mans head out of your ear so you don't fall too far into the extraterrestripath. The extraterrestripath is the celebration of communication lubrication without a return plan. The return plan is the man.

what've you heard?
Ginko
sumink like this [soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/158651427" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_use r=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]
wednesdayayay
I've heard the belly bats free fairing

The belly bat is an cousin to womb-bat

free fairing is a method of travelor

to be a travelor, the bat makes haste

haste is a paste

the paste is made up not to eat but to break apart after drying

inside the paste a's shell lies a surprise

a hidden heehaw

a heehaw is a sound which is not unrepresentative of the original paste's ingredients as those same ingredients find themselves intertwined in the heehaw

thus the heehaw is composite

a composite made of only one

the sound and the sound within the sound
Ginko
something wonderful
Ginko
I took the plunge yesterday and tried patching the bipolar Rungler and XOR outputs from the Benjolin to the Rollz 5 - it was pretty awesome and didn't break anything as far as I can tell.

Had an awesome little jam with the Rollz 5 solo as well - the Ultrasounds are super sensitive to the proximity of my body, which is pretty cool smile

I finally fixed the voltage starve yesterday and delivered one of the PCBs to my friend, he has been waiting a while!! Annoyingly, the voltage starve pot on his broke after a little use, I'm hoping this was just down to a duff potentiometer
bens
lintfresh wrote:
Okay, seems silly that this awesome project doesn't have a proper BOM so here's mine. The one listed a few pages back is so wrong I wonder if it's even for the same circuit.


...

8 x 4.7k

...

I just ordered from this so it's not confirmed 100% yet. I'll share my mouser cart too if anyone wants it.

Please let me know if you find errors.


I see 4 x 4.7K and 4 x 47K on the PCB. I don't think it's been mentioned yet in this thread.
bens
I just "finished" this by putting it on a temporary base and adding all the socketed caps and resistors: pretty randomly within the relevant ranges for the caps, and all 22K for the resistors. It worked, first time out, and I realized two things:
I have no idea how to play it -- SO FUN It's peanut butter jelly time!
I have to get some more banana cables! nanners

Ginko
Yeah you definitely get better results the more nodes you connect, particularly with the Ultrasounds! I have been cheaply using a combination of bananas and croc clips to keep me satisfied. Nice work!
goose2805
Would anybody mind sharing the dimensions of the PCB for the enclosure I'm planning?
pugix
goose2805 wrote:
Would anybody mind sharing the dimensions of the PCB for the enclosure I'm planning?


You don't have the PCB yet? I think it's best to have a PCB in hand before planning an enclosure. You should get it first, especially if you intend to use the mounting holes it has.
pugix
I got stalled on my Rollz-5 project, because I flubbed the first panel I made for it and then ran out of time. Another project intervened. But now it is returning to the front of my queue.

http://pugix.com/synth/rollz-5-schematics/
windspirit
Has anyone paired this with a plum-butter? (Im guessing the answer is yes.) Ive been thinking about it as a cheaper alternative to the dual unit
goose2805
pugix wrote:


You don't have the PCB yet? I think it's best to have a PCB in hand before planning an enclosure. You should get it first, especially if you intend to use the mounting holes it has.


Well I should have been more clear. I have the rollz paper circuits in a trumpet case and I am thinking about an upgrade. I would prefer to use the case I already have if possible.
zilaihong
Awesome work pugix!

@goose2805 the pcb size is about 280*233mm.
asteroid anxiety
windspirit wrote:
Has anyone paired this with a plum-butter? (Im guessing the answer is yes.) Ive been thinking about it as a cheaper alternative to the dual unit


I have. They're quite different, so while it may be an alternative to a dual unit it isn't really a substitute.
goose2805
Thank you zilaihong!
lintfresh
bens wrote:

I see 4 x 4.7K and 4 x 47K on the PCB. I don't think it's been mentioned yet in this thread.


Thank you bens, you are correct!

Updated BOM here, and earlier in the thread.

Quote:

BOM
Rollz-5+ PCB by Meng Qi Music
----------------------------------

ICs/Semi's:

8 x [511-TL082CN] (082)
8 x [511-TL084CN] (084)
2 x [511-4013] (4013)
2 x [511-4066] (4066)
4 x [18-1N914] diode
1 x 1N4007 diode
24 x PNP transistor [512-BC557B] (557)
60 x NPN transistor [512-BC547B] (547)

----------------------------------
Capacitors:

1 x 10uF electrolytic
30 x 1uF electrolytic
24 x .01uF (103)
16 x .001uF (102)
3 x .1uF (104)

----------------------------------
Resistors:

4 x 220
1 x 1k
4 x 4.7k
32 x 10k
4 x 15k
88 x 22k (includes the 4 needed for Ultrasound fix)
4 x 47k
44 x 100k
28 x 220k
36 x 470k
4 x 1m
4 x 2.2m

----------------------------------
Hardware/misc:

1 x vactrol
16 x 10k pots
1 x 1k pot
4 x 1m pots
8 x 2m 3296W trimpots
1 x 9v - 15v power supply (circuit spec'd for 9v, but different folks have had different results)
banana jacks
IC sockets
standoffs
mounting hardware

----------------------------------
Variable Parts:

resistors...
8 "x" 2m2 - 22k (avdog undulation speed - 2m2 is extra slow, 22k is fast)

"Hairy" capacitors
4x 10uf - 100uf electrolytic (avdog undulation sensitivity - 10uf is "sensitive", 100uf is "extra sensitive")
4x 47uf - .1uf ("rhythm slow to fast")
36x rolls caps (Peter B says .1uf and up. Although it looks like folks are using stuff between .01uf-ish and 100uf-ish, but mostly in the .1uf to 47uf range)
zilaihong
Thank you very much lintfresh!
thumbs up

Btw, please edit it to be 16*10k pots and 1*1k pot, the 1k is for power stave. Or even use a 500ohm pot. 10k is too large.
lintfresh
Oops. d'oh!

Fixed!
READYdot
I might want one prebuilt... but I can't find any info on price, etc.
zilaihong
READYdot wrote:
I might want one prebuilt... but I can't find any info on price, etc.


Hi, I can build you one for 450$, plus shipping charge. w00t
opsysbug
hyper So I'm getting this one

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=124320

Meng Qi and gents: can you just give me a quick simple review on the layout of this particular expanded model? I'm familiar with Peter's work as I
have a Plumbutter 2 and used to have the folding Rollz. But I just need to know what's in/outs and what the knobs do. A simple map. Hopefully I'll get
it soon and we can go from there!! Thanks!! It's motherfucking bacon yo
zilaihong
@opsysbug

Congrats! I've stopped making this expanded version.

As I remember the rotary switches and pots are connected to the gongue (bottom 8) and the avdog (top 8). Because of the wierdness of the circuit, at some settings it would make no sound or can't stop the sound, experimenting is the way. And I totally forgot about the outputs, but it should be easy enough to figure out... Sorry about that hihi .
opsysbug
Thanks!
I'll give it a try.
mrbloor
I've always fancied the expanded rollz, congratulations applause
pugix
Finally got back to this project. Dead Banana

http://pugix.com/synth/rollz-5-assembly-progress/

I am wiring the panel up now. A load of wires!
zilaihong
applause applause applause applause applause thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up nanners nanners nanners nanners nanners pugix
glia
cant wait to hear this modded beast
pugix
Got it done today! w00t

The only wiring problem was due to the Gong pots not being in the same order. Two have the Delay and Q pot in the opposite place from the other two on the board, so two were initially wired to the wrong spots.

I will post a full photo spread. For now here's a little recording:

http://pugix.com/synth/rollz-5-first-tryout/
glia
lovely work!
pugix
Finished!

http://pugix.com/synth/rollz-5-completed/
horaflora
Well done! just PM'd for a kit, this'll be my first such project, but I live in a house with several electronics wizards so will have plenty of help when needed!

Would you be so kind as to offer up your distinctions between this and a plumbutter? some obvious ones, like the double amount of modules, no MWRS, Snare, or Deerhorn, but any differences that come up that surprises you would be keenly observed!

looking forward to digging into this new experience!
horaflora
Well done! just PM'd for a kit, this'll be my first such project, but I live in a house with several electronics wizards so will have plenty of help when needed!

Would you be so kind as to offer up your distinctions between this and a plumbutter? some obvious ones, like the double amount of modules, no MWRS, Snare, or Deerhorn, but any differences that come up that surprises you would be keenly observed!

looking forward to digging into this new experience!
horaflora
(not sure why my posts have, so far, all double posted, apologies!)
pugix
scy1e wrote:
Well done! just PM'd for a kit, this'll be my first such project, but I live in a house with several electronics wizards so will have plenty of help when needed!

Would you be so kind as to offer up your distinctions between this and a plumbutter? some obvious ones, like the double amount of modules, no MWRS, Snare, or Deerhorn, but any differences that come up that surprises you would be keenly observed!

looking forward to digging into this new experience!


The main differences are that Rollz-5 has no voltage control inputs, a fixed on-board output mix, and fixed frequencies for everything except the Ultrasounds. This is if you build the 'kit', i.e. putting all components on the board, including pots and jacks, you have to either select resistors to set the frequencies of AVDogs and Gongs, or install some kind of sockets to experiment with. I overcame the fixed resistor issue by adding dual-ganged pots. (And BTW you can use 1M dual-ganged pots with series 22K for all of those. I tried larger series resistors for the Gongs to lower the low frequency, but it didn't make much diference.)

The Rollz-5 also has 5- and 6-node Rollz, whereas the PB has only two each of 3- and 4-Node. I never understood the reason for all the nodes, so all of mine have only 2 nodes. When I prototyped the 3- and 5-node rollz they oscillated at 100 Khz, which I didn't like.

Also, Plumbutter has more evolved versions of all the circuits, whereas Rollz-5 follows the original paper circuits pretty closely. PB has a bit better sound to it.
ClausF
pugix wrote:
I never understood the reason for all the nodes, so all of mine have only 2 nodes. When I prototyped the 3- and 5-node rollz they oscillated at 100 Khz, which I didn't like.


Did you try to patch them with some inline attenuators between them and go from one node directly to a mixer? I did that before I build AVdog etc. and hat some great results
horaflora
ok, might as well get this cleared up for myself now too - what do people mean by attenuators? are you patching to an external item, and back (or somewhere else)? can I get an example of what could generally be used as an attenuator?

Super new to synthesis, coming from electro-acoustic means of production, please pardon all my ignoramus!
pugix
What happened to all the posts on this since October 2014?

Go here for my project.

http://pugix.com/synth/tag/rollz-5/

If you Facebook, there are some recent pics and a video here:

https://www.facebook.com/alfonso.graceffo
mrbloor
Excellent work Richard applause
ModusOp
Beautiful stuff! The video was awesome! Magical tones! I love the colorful feeling the yellow case gives it, too! nanners
zilaihong
pugix
thumbs up w00t Guinness ftw! nanners It's peanut butter jelly time!
Dirty_Bill
Great work (and lots of it!) extending this instrument. love the drooooones.
horaflora
Ordered!!
pugix
ClausF wrote:
pugix wrote:
I never understood the reason for all the nodes, so all of mine have only 2 nodes. When I prototyped the 3- and 5-node rollz they oscillated at 100 Khz, which I didn't like.


Did you try to patch them with some inline attenuators between them and go from one node directly to a mixer? I did that before I build AVdog etc. and hat some great results


Actually I do understand Peter's original idea that the nodes are circuit internals brought out to be played around with. The Tetrazzi, Tetrax, Sidrassi, Sidrazzi, and Sidrax all have them too. One idea is to touch fingers to connect them with a higher resistance, introducing your body into the circuit. He wrote about the difference between touch with hands and with wires connecting them. When the nodes got put on banana jacks, touching became harder. I've just purchased some banana plugs with bare ends (Mouser 565-3257) that will let me touch the nodes. Some people have used bare banana jacks for this.

On my modular version of Tetrazzi, I have an internal mix of the four node outputs, which are pulses. And I put them on the panel with banana jacks to be patched with.

As for attenuators, see this:
http://pugix.com/synth/inline-attenuators/
horaflora
Kit and the full BOM arrived, time to get populatin!!!
Dirty_Bill
scy1e wrote:
Kit and the full BOM arrived, time to get populatin!!!


I have an order in as well, waiting on some parts to arrive. Let me know how things go - I'll be building soon. Looking forward to this...
Dirty_Bill
Richard, very impressed again with your build thanks for your research and information sharing, it is much appreciated.

You've done a lot to help augment my understanding of Peter's works...
Cowabunga-man
This thread is amazing. Think I'll read it through just one more time.. After I read it again.. Thank you all for unfolding the mysterious workings of Pete B, by extending it a bit further! Would love to get one of those pcb's somehow This is fun!
Dirty_Bill
Cowabunga-man wrote:
This thread is amazing. Think I'll read it through just one more time.. After I read it again.. Thank you all for unfolding the mysterious workings of Pete B, by extending it a bit further! Would love to get one of those pcb's somehow This is fun!


Just message Meng Qi, pay, and you can have one of your very own!
Cowabunga-man
Dirty_Bill I might just do that, thanks!
How difficult would you say this project is, if starting with all the parts that Meng Qi provides for? With the pcb I reckon it becomes a lot easier than building the original paper circuit, wich I've been thinking of doing but don't feel too experienced for that. What would you say are the most difficult areas and parts with this project?

Consider me a beginner of synth diy. I have mostly done a lot of pedals for guitars etc and want to upgrade. I built the WSG earlier this year and didn't find it problematic at all. I'm not that interested in building stuff I don't like, and CL is difinitely what I like, but I also understand that Im maybe about to bite off more than is digestible at the moment..!
Dirty_Bill
Cowabunga-man wrote:
Dirty_Bill

Consider me a beginner of synth diy. I have mostly done a lot of pedals for guitars etc and want to upgrade. I built the WSG earlier this year and didn't find it problematic at all. I'm not that interested in building stuff I don't like, and CL is difinitely what I like, but I also understand that Im maybe about to bite off more than is digestible at the moment..!


I haven't built it yet, those who've built it would have to chime in. It's a BIG board... But looks straightforward. If you've got. A project like he wsg under your belt, you've got the basic skills.
Cowabunga-man
... aaand ordered w00t
Dirty_Bill
Cowabunga-man wrote:
... aaand ordered w00t


Best o luck with the build! I also have my order in. I'll be looking over the BOM (I believe there's a Mouser cart somewhere) for component choices soon,..
Cowabunga-man
Thank you very mucho, and you too! Didn't realize everything is mounted on the pcb , so I think this will be a manageable project.That mouser cart is great. Allready thinking of adding volume/pitch controls for the different "modules". I guess the trimmers that control pitch of the gongues wouldn't be too tricky to replace with pots.
Cowabunga-man
Repeater wrote:

You can raise the output volume of your ultrasound filters by lowering the value of the Z resistors.


Would be possible to squeeze in a pot there ? confused
pugix
Cowabunga-man wrote:
Thank you very mucho, and you too! Didn't realize everything is mounted on the pcb , so I think this will be a manageable project.That mouser cart is great. Allready thinking of adding volume/pitch controls for the different "modules". I guess the trimmers that control pitch of the gongues wouldn't be too tricky to replace with pots.


As soon as you start adding external pots, everything isn't on the board anymore and you have to come up with a mounting scheme for the pots. Each gong has two trim pots, which need to be replaced with one dual-gang pot.

As for volume, the on-board mixer is just a passive resistor mix. Replacing the mixing resistor with pots would have some effect, but not very controllable, since they'd all interact. That is why I built a separate output mixer (schematic on my website).
horaflora


Just started mine last night, a pleasure to put together so far!!!
horaflora



Hmm, doing the 220k resistors, and ran into 4 of em with a third hole.. Just to the right of the socket dealy... Lil help? Thanks!
horaflora
er, nevermind, I think - looking at Pugix's pix, it looks like ya just ignore that hole... maybe a, what's it called, Via?


ok, cheers!
Cowabunga-man
pugix wrote:

Each gong has two trim pots, which need to be replaced with one dual-gang pot.

Thanks for the input. What kind of pots did you replace the trimmers with, 2M audio or linear? And what would be the correct way to wire them, which legs to use and not?
Nice schematics smile
pugix
Cowabunga-man wrote:
pugix wrote:

Each gong has two trim pots, which need to be replaced with one dual-gang pot.

Thanks for the input. What kind of pots did you replace the trimmers with, 2M audio or linear? And what would be the correct way to wire them, which legs to use and not?
Nice schematics smile


I could not find 2M dual gang pots, so I used 1M. Linear I think. I also added a series resistor on one end, because the resistance should have a minimum value. 22K would be fine. I wired them so that as you turn the pot clockwise the resistance becomes smaller. Maximum resistance at the anti-clockwise rotation corresponds to the lowest frequency.

These gongs don't go as low as the ones in P.B. I'm really glad that I put output jacks on my panel, because the gongs oscillate if you patch the output to the input and turn up the Q.
Cowabunga-man
pugix wrote:


I could not find 2M dual gang pots, so I used 1M. Linear I think. I also added a series resistor on one end, because the resistance should have a minimum value. 22K would be fine. I wired them so that as you turn the pot clockwise the resistance becomes smaller. Maximum resistance at the anti-clockwise rotation corresponds to the lowest frequency.

These gongs don't go as low as the ones in P.B. I'm really glad that I put output jacks on my panel, because the gongs oscillate if you patch the output to the input and turn up the Q.


Allright, thanks! 1M it'll be then. And the resistor - good to know. Think I'll start by making sure the whole thing works according to the original design and then take it from there. Therefor: since I can't find vactrols at mouser I'll DIM, do I need any specific LED or photoresistor for this job?
Thanks so much for the help so far.
neilbaldwin
Anyone have trouble with the 4066 ICs on this? I finished my build and everything seems to be working apart from I get a low-level high-pitched tone from one pair of Ultrasounds with nothing patched into them. If I swap over the 4066s it moves to the other output side.
horaflora
Ok, pretty close to done with this(!!), have most of it working, but got a couple issues before it's DONE:

Problem A
Guessed wrong when deciding how to put the 82's into their sockets, and put em in backwards (FIRST PROJECT HERE - CUT ME SLACK!)... now it looks like mouser doesn't have anything but the surface mount style, unless I'm missing something... anyone got a few of these to trade/sell? found some at QuestComp, but minimum order $25...

Problem B
The DIY vactrol I cooked up is bunk, any more info on specifics of how to make one of these?

Problem C (maybe)
I have several modules working, and the rolls all seem to be working, but the whole thing is pretty quiet, I wonder if, once I replace the fried 82's, that'll get remedied too, or maybe it's just a quiet output in general (maybe outputting half of what the Plumbutter can)

THANKAYOU!!
windspirit
@pugix: does anything interesting happen with separate resistor values for the gong's pitch trimmers? Aka 2 pots instead of dual gang?
thresholdpeople
Here are some TL082s on mouser: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/TL082ACP/?qs=sGA EpiMZZMtOXy69nW9rM5wfe4h9MwcimXqsrWsMYMg%3d
Dirty_Bill
scy1e wrote:
Ok, pretty close to done with this(!!), have most of it working, but got a couple issues before it's DONE:

Problem A
Guessed wrong when deciding how to put the 82's into their sockets, and put em in backwards (FIRST PROJECT HERE - CUT ME SLACK!)... now it looks like mouser doesn't have anything but the surface mount style, unless I'm missing something... anyone got a few of these to trade/sell? found some at QuestComp, but minimum order $25...

Problem B
The DIY vactrol I cooked up is bunk, any more info on specifics of how to make one of these?

Problem C (maybe)


I have several modules working, and the rolls all seem to be working, but the whole thing is pretty quiet, I wonder if, once I replace the fried 82's, that'll get remedied too, or maybe it's just a quiet output in general (maybe outputting half of what the Plumbutter can)

THANKAYOU!!


I have bunches of 082s and a vactrol for Ya!
pugix
windspirit wrote:
@pugix: does anything interesting happen with separate resistor values for the gong's pitch trimmers? Aka 2 pots instead of dual gang?


Probably no use in separate pots. They should match up, because it's a traditional state variable filter design.
transfixer
i just finished populating (finally) my board, but i still need some vector image of it in order to accurately drill the holes in the faceplate. wink
help much appreciated!

thanks in advance.
Miley Cyrus
horaflora
huh, looking for standoffs I can buy in the states without buying a ton of em, anyone have extras, trade for a tape or record?

https://weirdearrecords.bandcamp.com/
zilaihong
transfixer wrote:
i just finished populating (finally) my board, but i still need some vector image of it in order to accurately drill the holes in the faceplate. wink
help much appreciated!

thanks in advance.
Miley Cyrus


I just uploaded 2 PDF in the first post of this thread. wink
transfixer
right! thank you very much!
screaming goo yo SlayerBadger! screaming goo yo
paperwork
Just got one of these from another wiggler -- great stuff! I expect mostly to learn by experimentation, but appreciate any beginners' tips!

I have a few specific questions:

- Is that a ground plug at the bottom-middle of the board (ie. directly below the cat face)? I have a banana->1/8" adapter box on the way to connect the rollz to my eurorack synth & it has a plug on it for the ground.

- I gather that the top two rows are 2x each of the "rollz" circuit at various scales (3/4/5/6). Within an individual rollz, am I meant to be patching these plugs together? Or patching between rollz? Or just out from a rollz port into one of the plugs below?

- I think that from top to bottom, the voice circuits are: 4x "ultrasound," 4x "gong" and then 4x "avdog" -- is that right?

- I get some pretty dramatic & interesting effects from playing with the knob just below the vactrol, though it basically shuts everything off after about a 1/4 turn clockwise. That plug directly above the vactrol is for voltage control of power starving, right? What kind of signal should I be plugging in there? Something external to the Rollz-5+?

Sorry that's a lot of questions -- any hints are greatly appreciated :]
bens
Those are super questions, well-asked. Thanks! I can't wait to hear some answers.
ClausF
Then I make a start:
Ground plug: there are some photos in this thread of the stuffed and unstuffed PCB, I have a photo here, where nothig is stuffed at this point. So I would take a Multimeter and look if this is conncted with GND. If not, add your own GND-Plug. BTW: These are normally black.

Top two rows: Yes, These are the rolls, and you should patch them together to get the complex "beats". on The Ciat Lonbarde website the Rollz-5 is described very good, and it is explained how to connect the rolls. I did it never within one roll. A roll is something like a impulse generator, patching between them disturbes the beat of every engaged roll more or less and leads to other "beats". In the above CL papers you can also learn, how to switch pots between the rolls, to get different effects. And, using this, you can go from the rolls directly in an amp (with the GND cable) to get sound. A little bit ambiguous? Welcome to the world of Ciat Lonbarde... hihi

Normally you go from one Point of the connected Rolls to one of the imputs below. So you have your rhythm unit at the top (with possiblity of noise too) and your "drums"/voices below. BTW: forget everything about logic with these circuits, they do what they want. For example: I have a PB2 and a Rollzer, Ultrasound sounds totally different if it get's an impulse from the PB2-rolls (ping) or the Rollzer-rolls (crackle). Impulses of the rolls are different, especially when connected. Not always a voice reacts on an every impulse, that is normal. I recommended a Multimeter at the top (20€ Amazon is enough, but it should have a continuity checker) and I recommend an oscilloscope for CL gear, to see a little bit what happens. O'tool is great, or use the 30€ ebay things from Hong Kong, just a circuit board, but works great

I don't remember exactly the sequence of the voices, but these are also documented in the Rollz-5 doku. There you see the IC's of the voices, compare that with a Picture of the PCB (you find it in this thread) and there you are.

No idea about power starving, so far I did not build my Meng Qi Rollz-5 cry . But I experimented a lot with the original circuits... which you can connect to the Meng Qi Rollz 5 and expand it btw....

Hope that helps you to dig deeper into that fantastic Instrument... Guinness ftw!
xahdrez
Finished building one of these a few weeks ago - socketed all the components so still not 100% set on values, but loving what it does already. In terms of those questions, it's well worth reading all of this thread if you've not already, but I believe

- pot below vactrol is power starve (might go opposite way from what you're used to depending on convention)
- from top to bottom it is avdog, ultrasound then gongs
paperwork
xahdrez wrote:
- from top to bottom it is avdog, ultrasound then gongs


Wow I was way off, haha. Thanks!

& thanks ClausF -- I have a cheapo digital scope I'll try doing some measuring+exploring with :]
paperwork
Using that bottom-middle plug as ground works very well with this Low-Gain passive banana/3.5mm converter box!

Here's a study from sending a few patch points out to trigger some samplers with 90s dance samples & clock some other eurorack noises (alongside the Rollz's own voices).

https://soundcloud.com/paperwwwork/rollz-drummer-study

[s]http://soundcloud.com/paperwwwork/rollz-drummer-study[/s]

Some euro modules are more content with the direct Rollz output than are others, I guess I'll be using comparators & envelope followers a lot for this integration.

I was also sending a eurorack LFO into the Rollz voltage starve input, with fairly subtle results, but I am pretty sure it was working as expected there.

What an inspiring instrument!
pugix
I changed four of the Rolls oscillators in mine from 2 to 3-rolls. The result: major fart sounds!

http://pugix.com/synth/rollz-5-modification-added-3-rolls/
VDU
Im having problems getting my revision 4 board to lurch into life here.

I only have one multi adapter to hand and so far not a peep. To be honest I am a little confused about the power situation, latest edit to original post says centre positive, but then there is this image https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/files/rollz_5_pwr_and_output_283.jpg which would suggest otherwise no?
I have mounted switch and power on the underside of the board, which way should switch go to be in the on position? Sorry for such silly questions.... d'oh!
paperwork
I seem to have messed this guy up somehow. hmmm..... I'm not getting any audio out anymore, except for an extremely faint rumble and some even fainter whiny tones that I can manipulate by turning the ultrasound knobs. Those are so faint that I have to turn my mixer up about 4x its usual volume to hear them at all. Patching doesn't have any effect anymore. The power starve knob is totally counter-clockwise.

The last thing I did was unpatch while the rollz was on & I think one of the patch cables touched the metal side of my eurorack case just before everything went silent. I don't know what that would have done really, it may be coincidence.

Any ideas what I should start testing/replacing? ICs are usually the first thing I try swapping out with broken gear, and these look pretty common, but I'd dearly appreciate any other troubleshooting recommendations! Thanks :]
Synesthesia
VDU wrote:
Im having problems getting my revision 4 board to lurch into life here.

I only have one multi adapter to hand and so far not a peep. To be honest I am a little confused about the power situation, latest edit to original post says centre positive, but then there is this image https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/files/rollz_5_pwr_and_output_283.jpg which would suggest otherwise no?
I have mounted switch and power on the underside of the board, which way should switch go to be in the on position? Sorry for such silly questions.... d'oh!


I am a bit on the same boat. so far i have a silent Rollz-5 !

the only thing i missed was the switch - it was missing from the BOM. I have added it - but yeah, I a slightly confused with how the power work.

- Can anynoe suggest a quick power test ?
- is there need for any VIA anywhere ? or something i might have missed ?
- can anyone clarify is the PSU polarity - as what VDU pointed out sounds strange ?

Sorry to be a pain lads! very exited to get this baby going smile

UPDATE : actually it is pretty clear that I have a short somewhere.[/img]

VDU
snap here, i just can't for the life of me find where hmmm.....
I've checked the diode, checked for ground on all the IC's etc... I can't seem to track 9v past the switch hmmm.....
thelizard
Just finished building mine last night. It works! I used all electrolytics for the rolls. 9V is a bit too weak for it. A 12V power supply is definitely much better. I should grab a 15V power supply to test. Anyone know the maximum recommended amperage? Is that a thing that even matters?

Also, could anyone tell me a good way to verify that every section works correctly (including pot movements)? Before I screw it into the case, I want to make sure that everything is good and settled.

I know for sure that the four AVDogs are working, as moving the pots changes distinct pitch changes for all four of them.
thelizard
thelizard wrote:
Just finished building mine last night. It works! I used all electrolytics for the rolls. 9V is a bit too weak for it. A 12V power supply is definitely much better. I should grab a 15V power supply to test. Anyone know the maximum recommended amperage? Is that a thing that even matters?

Also, could anyone tell me a good way to verify that every section works correctly (including pot movements)? Before I screw it into the case, I want to make sure that everything is good and settled.

I know for sure that the four AVDogs are working, as moving the pots changes distinct pitch changes for all four of them.


Nevermind! Figured it out. Only thing I was missing was the 22k fix for the Ultrasounds. This thing sounds great.
VDU
Hmm... i thought Ultrasound fix was fixed now... So I am guessing this is a revision 3 board?

Has anyone built a working revision 4 here?
thelizard
Yeah, this is a Rev 3 board (I think). Regardless, if your entire board isn't working, it's not the missing 22k. That should only affect the ultrasounds.

Things to ensure:
-Your power-starve pot is full anti-clockwise.
-You're connecting even-Rollz (4 and 6) to AVDogs, and odd-Rollz (3 and 5) to Ultrasounds.
-Your gongs aren't tuned so low that you can't hear them (I had this on mine)
-The right knob under each AVDog is effectively a volume control. Make sure those are turned up.

The Rev 3 board is center positive for power. However, I also built Meng's APCS and DDDM2 PCBs, and those required center negative. My board required 12V center-positive. 15V center-positive also worked fine, but didn't provide any volume boost, really. 9V was way too quiet.
VDU
thanks thelizard, Im sure i'll get to the bottom of it eventually, tho I am pretty sure it is a short I am trying to track down, and it'd just be nice to find an example of the revision 4 working. As it stands Im not getting 9v to any IC's
I know its bound to be my error in there somewhere!
zilaihong


an issue found on Rollz-5 rev.4 PCB. Plz cut the 2 little traces as shown. Sorry and I would refund 5$ for each PCB.

Contact me : mengqimusic[at]gmail[dot]com
Synesthesia
Trace cutted ... AND ..... Rollz is alive!!!! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger!

applause

Thanks Meng wink
VDU
SORTED

w00t

Cheers for tracking that down Meng thumbs up
paperwork
I replaced all the ICs but still no sound coming out seriously, i just don't get it

I'll greedily accept any advice or instinct -- what's the first thing you would try if your Rollz-5+ v3 stopped working? I have a multimeter and a small scope; where/what would you try probing or inspecting? Thanks for any ideas, I'm feeling very much at sea.
xahdrez
Has anyone tried drilling additional holes in the acrylic box that Meng Qi provides? I've made some modifications (as per pugix's adaptations a few posts back) but have a feeling if I try and make holes for additional pots I might just crack the case....

Anyone tried doing this? Is it a bad idea? zombie
wednesdayayay
there is no way I could build this thing from a kit so unfortunately I can't really help much

what would you be using to do the drilling?
anyway you could post some pics of your mods?
I know pugix put a ton of info up on his site but with my lack of electronic experience I'd love to know how easy simply having separate outs and aux in on the gong

I know meng qi said the octagonal pad (for mixer stuff) I must look closer as I don't see them I'm mostly just seeing square pads on the back of the board (or should I be looking for them on the front?)

really my only issue is the constant drone from some of the modules which is fixed with a battery instead of a wallwart but I'd love to have some more volume and not have to go through batteries

it is certainly a different bit of kit from the plumbutter I'm excited to put them together and see what happens
xahdrez
the avdog mod is fairly straightforward too - you just need one dual gang pot per voice and solder one gang across each of the 'x' resistors. This allows you to change the rate of each voice - sort of a bit like modulation. The nice thing is that it allows you to take each voice into ultrasound type territory too. I stopped working on it all when I realised I hadn't planned out how to mount it all (presumably they'll now spend months screwed into a scrap bit of cardboard.... meh ) but will eventually get onto the mixer and report back - think that will require its own home though as it'll be tough to fit in the box.

In terms of the drone - this is much more prominent on mine when batteries are low, unless you mean it is avdogs self triggering (which mine did when the resistor values were too low as well - i.e. It was sensitive enough to that it triggered via proximity).
ClausF
paperwork wrote:
I replaced all the ICs but still no sound coming out seriously, i just don't get it

I'll greedily accept any advice or instinct -- what's the first thing you would try if your Rollz-5+ v3 stopped working? I have a multimeter and a small scope; where/what would you try probing or inspecting? Thanks for any ideas, I'm feeling very much at sea.

When it stopped working I would check
(1) the power supply
(2) everything in the power area of the rollz-5, any short or something broken? 7809/7812 sometimes die...
(3) do the ICs get the right voltages
paperwork
Thanks, ClausF! Just tried a couple different power supplies, they are functional but kind of standard store-bought adapters so they are outputting slightly higher voltage than advertised. The one I've been using is 11.5v, labeled 9v. But that's still in the right general range & was working before.

With 11.5v coming from the power supply, I see about 1.6v at pin 4 (labeled Vcc+ in the datasheet) on the TL084 chips. That's with the two multimeter probes connected to pin 4 on the tl084 and the "Power -" point on the PCB. Right?

You mention 7809 and 7812 but there are no voltage regulators on this board, right?
ClausF
Don't know the board, but I expected voltage regulation. Anyway, 1.6V on Vcc of a TL084 is not enough. Something is wrong in the power supply arrea of your rollz-5.

So you have to check every trace between the plus at the power in of your board and Vcc of the TL084. I do this without power just using the beep of the multimeter. If you don't have a beep, use the Ohm-meter... Or do it with power (on the rollz) and with the Multimeter (check the voltages on the way), somewhere on the way the voltage gets lost.

Also it's always a good idea to check if there's a short between plus and minus (but that should kill your power supply anyway...)
paperwork
Thanks, ClausF. Making some progress now! I found a voltage drop around the power starve pot/vactrol & after testing that pot found that it's no longer working. I shorted those three legs & removed the vactrol as suggested earlier in this thread, and now it's partially working! All 4 ultrasounds, the right two gongs & right two avdogs are working.

There's also a loud hum that comes and goes as I patch or touch between the ultrasound jack on the far right ... it really has a mind of its own. It dissipates when I touch between that far-right ultrasound jack & some other jack on the board, and then reappears after 10 seconds or so. Very organic behavior :]

Still seeing 1.6v on the Vcc+ in the bottom two tl084s, even the one next to the functional gongs.

Since the working/non-working split is straight down the middle (except for the ultrasounds), I wonder if there's some single component that could have failed and taken out most of the left side of the board?

It's good at least to have it partially going! Thanks again for the pointers, ClausF.
ClausF
Glad to see that you are on the right way...
Don't think that something destroyed the half of the board, as far as I remember, all is the same, so why the half...
- I would follow some traces, especially from power to the TL084 with the low voltage.
- Follow all voltage traces, look if everywhere where you expect full power really is full power
- Loud hum has normally to d something with ground - remember touching a cable in a amp, is it the same hum?

And btw: you know that it's documented on the Ciat Lonbarde site? Ok, no schematics, but you can "extract" them from the paper circuits. And you can build every of this circuits, look how he reacts and combine him with the Rollz-5...
sawersky
looking forward to built mine !
I ordered mine two couple days ago, and wondering if this will require cutting as well.
indeepp
This kit sounds super fun
windspirit
lintfresh wrote:

Here's the cart I ordered from:
http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=b3fb6 bc9c3

It does NOT include the following:
- anything in Meng's parts kit (ics, sockets, pots, etc...)
- Power supply
- Case hardware (screws, standoffs, etc)
- Variable parts

Happy building!


Im about to order parts for this. Did you or anyone else ever successfully build from this BOM?
VDU
Hey Windspirit,
I used that bom for my build with no problems, happy soldering!
windspirit
Sweet, now I need to decide what I want to replace with a pot/ rotary switch grin
ym2612
What vactrol is best to use on this? Does it matter? Can I get away with a Silonex NSL-32?
transfixer
hello meng qi,

could you provide the markings of knob functions on the faceplate in english, please?
(looks great in chinese, though!)
screaming goo yo
ym2612
Got mine built and working and making wonderful sounds screaming goo yo

I used a Silonex NSL-32 on the power starve and it works great.
jsu
pm sent. Are cases available? Or the case design files to create an English layout for the faceplate on a lasercutter?

edit: nvm, found the pdf of the faceplate on 1st page of the thread. smile
adammokan
windspirit wrote:
lintfresh wrote:

Here's the cart I ordered from:
http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=b3fb6 bc9c3

It does NOT include the following:
- anything in Meng's parts kit (ics, sockets, pots, etc...)
- Power supply
- Case hardware (screws, standoffs, etc)
- Variable parts

Happy building!


Im about to order parts for this. Did you or anyone else ever successfully build from this BOM?


I used the Mouser BOM and all was good, other than missing the trim pots. Just a heads up.
adammokan
double post - please delete
Dirty_Bill
adammokan wrote:
double post - please delete


It's good for your post count! On a related note - I've been working on a RollZ5+ I acquired from Wednesdayayay, mostly tuning cap values, adding a regulated power supply, and making some of Pugix' mods - the AVDog oscillator outs are simple and useful!

More as I continue to add bits, and thanks again to Richard for sharing his work, it's gone a long way in helping me to more deeply understand the instruments.
adammokan
I wrapped my base build up last night to be delighted with magic smoke from the voltage starve pot. Obviously something is hosed up somewhere. I see another wiggler in here had a similar issue and narrowed it down to some resistors, but I assume my issue is different since it was working well the night before until i added some final parts on the right side. Admittedly, I did not check IC voltage/ground pins before socketing - which is something I'd recommend anyone do on a board this large. I know better, but was excited to fire it up again.

I have to assume any short or mistake related to the core 9v rail is always going to sneak its way up to that voltage starve circuit.

I'm also thinking some of the Pugix mods may need to be done as well as a 7809 voltage regulator may be in order after I figure this out.

Time to dig out the multimeter and scope. Been here before.

Also, I've seen various statements about the roll caps - but are people using a mix of capacitor types up there? I have a mix of mylar, film, and mostly electrolytic. I assume that should be no problem since I've breadboarded these sorts of transistor oscillators a long time ago with random caps - but just want to see if most of you are sticking to just electrolytic.
Dirty_Bill
Bummer. I eliminated the voltage starve by pulling the vactrol and jumpering the pot connectors as noted by Meng Qi earlier in this thread. I get a healthy dose of noise with unregulated wall warts, but linear PS solves the issue (even to 12 volts).

I have all electrolytics in the rolls, but a mix of film on the other circuits with hairy caps I've built rollz on paper with film caps without issue...

Good luck and may the blue smoke faery not visit you again!
adammokan
Well, my issue was an easy fix. Just had an op-amp in backwards. I guess that is a good PSA for powering up before looking over everything or wrapping up while tired smile

I will need to replace the power starve pot at some point, but for now I'm just shorting the pins like you mentioned and all is good.

My rolls seem pretty good, but I'm considering making the lower set of 3 & 4 rolls a bit less chaotic and slower by using matching or electrolytics on each with closer values. Maybe like three 4.7uF and then four 1.0uf on those two sets.
adammokan
some clips from my build

https://www.instagram.com/p/BCWPeU4qX30
https://www.instagram.com/p/BCWPoXqKX4J
adammokan
After my initial build I had an opamp in backwards and toasted the pot in the voltage starve section. Once I fixed the opamp, I just bridged the pins on that pot and all was good, aside from a non-functioning voltage starve circuit. So this past Sunday, I decided to replace that pot and pop a new nsl-32sr3 in there (along with some adjustments to roll caps since I had the iron hot).

All was great after that... Had some really good stuff cooking with the vactrol/voltage starve section being hit from my PB2 rollz orange outputs. I had a couple cables connecting the Rollz-5 rolls to the PB2 brown roll jacks, which I had done before and like I said - everything was killer. Ground was connected between the R5 and PB2, etc, etc.

Odd thing is that I went to fire up the gear yesterday and do the same thing but noticed the Rollz-5 seems to be dead around that damn voltage starve circuit once again. If I plug in the orange out from the PB2, I can get it to make noise - but without anything plugged in, its struggling. Super super faint sound in the background. Pot full counter-clockwise (i've tried both ways). I haven't hooked it up to a meter or scope yet, but my gut feeling is that the NSL-32 didn't like something from the session on Sunday.

I know I've seen a few of you mention using the NSL in the vactrol section, but I guess I'm curious about how durable that is or what you're feeding it or if you've used it much after the initial test since I had success for an hour or more the first time. Seems like it should be able to handle the 9v swing with that 1k resistor on the PCB (I think that was the value, but the board is not in front of me now). Its been a couple weeks since I scoped the orange outputs from the PB2, but those didn't swing negative or do anything wild like the browns last I recall.

I'm going to check things out more tonight or tomorrow, but just wondered if anyone has experienced something similar. Def no magic smoke or anything obvious, though.

I see a number of you just mentioned eliminating the voltage starve altogether as well. I hate to do that because the results were great, but I may have to until I have time to protect that section a bit more or add some sort of bypass switch. Or I wonder if I had the same orange that was feeding the voltage starve triggering a green on my PB2 and got some weird transient or reverse current into the NSL? Again, just guessing at this point.
Dirty_Bill
What are you suing for a power supply? I had some odd behaviors when using unregulated power supplies. I breadboarded up a 12V regulated PS as thats the only Reg I had on hand, (with LED!) and have had much better results. YMMV...
adammokan
Dirty_Bill wrote:
What are you suing for a power supply? I had some odd behaviors when using unregulated power supplies. I breadboarded up a 12V regulated PS as thats the only Reg I had on hand, (with LED!) and have had much better results. YMMV...


I'm just using an unregulated 9v that was in the Mouser BOM. I have a bunch of regulators on hand and will likely go with your approach as well. It def makes sense to bump it up to 12v and use a 7809, I was just being lazy.
Dirty_Bill
In the meantime you can test with a battery if you f like to see I there's a difference. I had lots of weird with unregulated power...
adammokan
My issue was the pot in the voltage starve. It must not have liked something sent to it. So fixed that and will have to watch the input in the future.

A clip of it functioning again... https://www.instagram.com/p/BDCD4T4qX8V
Dirty_Bill
Sounding good! What did you settle on for cap values?
deadpix
Hello

It seems that I got wrong hex nuts for the banana plug, does somebody know the reference/size of the nuts?
Synesthesia
no idea about the nuts ...


Guys, for the hairy capacitor - what did you use ? anyone knows what to use to get value close to the Plumbutter ?
lintfresh
deadpix wrote:
Hello

It seems that I got wrong hex nuts for the banana plug, does somebody know the reference/size of the nuts?


Not sure off the top of my head, but Meng uses this type I believe:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/100pcs-4mm-banana-socket-jack-FOR-Banana-Plug- connector-/160871846833?hash=item2574b593b1:m:m3varPJi08Ch2-1k7CLTMbg

Cheap enough to order some new ones. Or you can measure the shaft diameter. The nut size and threading will likely be metric.
lintfresh
Synesthesia wrote:
no idea about the nuts ...


Guys, for the hairy capacitor - what did you use ? anyone knows what to use to get value close to the Plumbutter ?


Yo!
I believe you can get that info here:
http://www.ciat-lonbarde.net/plumbutter/labrolzpapersz.pdf
Although, knowing Mr. Blasser you're going to have to work for it. wink
I'll try to take a look for you when I've got a second.
Synesthesia
i'll have a quick look ! thanks!
s'mores
posted about this in paper circuits section but maybe I can get more feedback here - are you all using mixed values for hairy caps within a single roll? what are the practical results of mixed vs uniform values within a roll? as far as I understand larger caps would take longer to discharge and thus an assortment of different values would give pulses of irregular lengths at each node?
ClausF
The Rolls are not so complicated, I would try this on a breadboard. So far I used always the same values.

For values see the Rollzer description on the Ciat Lonbarde page, there's a pic from slow to fast with the responding cap values. Don't know for sure if in the commercial Rollzer uses the same circuit, as the Rolls but there's one obvious diference: Rollzer has LEDs (but not for every roll.
s'mores
Yeah I thought about breadboarding em, but seeing as I don't have a scope or any of the other modules built yet it might be kind of hard to see what's happening... I think I'm just gonna try with different values and I can always swap out parts later. Each roll is getting an LED (ultraviolet for ultrasound!) via Ken Stones LED driver (as per Richard Brewster's suggestion)
ClausF
Ah, did not read Richards article a deep as I should...but I anyway got fixed by testing all the Roll-5 components and bought a PB2 nanners

Regarding scope: just look in ebay or amazon for DSO138. Don't take the kit, the build version is just a few bucks more, but kit is ok too, I have one.
EATyourGUITAR
still no readable schematics from mengqi or peter? did I miss something?
adammokan
EATyourGUITAR wrote:
still no readable schematics from mengqi or peter? did I miss something?


What are you specifically struggling with? Its a real basic circuit. Everything is easy to trace on the paper circuit to fill the gap of a schematic.
wednesdayayay
pugixs' website has very plainly laid out the schematics and discusses how and why they work
http://pugix.com/synth/tag/rollz-5/
http://pugix.com/synth/tag/plumbutter/

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=164239&highlight=
indeepp
Here´s my build of the original rolls-5 into a old wood box (av-dog gongs are on both sides of the box, the rolls are in the top)

[/img]
muncky
Just started building my Rollz-5 (v4) acquired from Thonk recently (ie all the resistors are stuffed). Even after being up and down this thread, and Richard's excellent documentation, I have a few questions from those that have built before. My plan is to build into a big wooden box, so will be flying the pots and bananas out of the board.

- The rollz… what’s the logic of the top of the board? I don’t have a wiring diagram, but have noticed builds using differed coloured bananas here. Would be great to understand these more clearly, and work out the thinking behind the numbers there… as I’m flying the bananas off, I’d like to group them into little flowers, like on PB’s papers circuits page.

- Bringing out the trimmers to pots – may be being thick, but how does a dual ganged pot work here? Does that mean one pot controls two parameters? Would two pots be better?

- For info, Intending to socket all the hairys using precision pins

Thanks!
mrbloor
The rollz on meng qi boards are in 2 identical rows, so from left the first 3 are a 3 roll, then 4 roll, 5 roll & 6 roll. You can wire them into geometaries as Peter did in the Roolz Gewei the only differences being roolz had 4 x 6 rollz and also Peter had a section of rollz at top and a section at bottom. Peters geometary went 6roll, 3roll 4roll, 5roll, 6roll.

hope this helps.

I boxed mine up in 'Ciat' style boxes using different strip woods glued together, I had to router out the wood in places to get the nana's, jacks & sockets to fit.
mrbloor


like this
muncky
That's really helpful, David - muchos gracias! I think I get it now.
neilbaldwin
Building another couple of these for clients grin

1) I can't find the thread about the Ultrasound fix - can someone point me in the right direction?
2) The two boards are Rev 4 - is the Ultrasound fix needed for that revision?
3) There's also the power rail fix (page 1 of this thread) - is that required on a Rev 4 board? There's no detail on that page about it.

Cheers!
muncky
zilaihong wrote:
pugix wrote:
What about the mistake on the Ultrasounds, Meng Qi? Shouldn't a 22K resistor be added to each of these?


Thank you pugix! I am in Paris now (performing tonight) and just got some time to sit down and check the circuit. You said that I've missed one resistor and as I just checked, in fact I've missed two per ultrasound. d'oh!

It is very easy to fix tho, the method is like the pic in attachment, it shows the back of the PCB, you can solder the legs of resistors on the pins of the IC sockets and the space there would fit them nicely.

The ultrasound will work (make sounds) without the 4 22k resistors, it may be better sounding with them!

Sorry everyone for the extra work!

And thank you lintfresh! That BOM is very useful! Maybe there needs to be 4 more 22k resistors in the BOM.

Btw, welcome to my concert tonight if you happen to be in Paris today : https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1564052#1564052

Cheers! Guinness ftw!


Ultrasound fix above on page 8 of this thread - don't know if still applies...
neilbaldwin
Ah, found it, thanks Muncky (it was actually page 9 hihi )
muncky
Any tips/tricks/pics for wiring up dual gang pots on the AV dogs? Never had the pleasure of deploying a dual gang pot before...!

UPDATED:

So, have also been sharing on the CL Facecrack pages, and some suggests therein. So, re-read the thread for the umpteenth time in the last week, and extracted a few more previously sown nuggets from Richard (I've smashed a number of his updates together):

Quote:
"Rollz-5 has no voltage control inputs, a fixed on-board output mix, and fixed frequencies for everything except the Ultrasounds. This is if you build the 'kit', i.e. putting all components on the board, including pots and jacks, you have to either select resistors to set the frequencies of AVDogs and Gongs, or install some kind of sockets to experiment with. I overcame the fixed resistor issue by adding dual-ganged pots. (And BTW you can use 1M dual-ganged pots with series 22K for all of those. I tried larger series resistors for the Gongs to lower the low frequency, but it didn't make much diference.)

Each gong has two trim pots, which need to be replaced with one dual-gang pot. I used 1M. Linear I think. I also added a series resistor on one end, because the resistance should have a minimum value. 22K would be fine. I wired them so that as you turn the pot clockwise the resistance becomes smaller. Maximum resistance at the anti-clockwise rotation corresponds to the lowest frequency. Probably no use in separate pots - they should match up, because it's a traditional state variable filter design.

These gongs don't go as low as the ones in P.B. I'm really glad that I put output jacks on my panel, because the gongs oscillate if you patch the output to the input and turn up the Q.

http://pugix.com/synth/rollz-5-schematics/"

In short, almost all there hiding in play sight... and if my maths is right, 8 dual ganged pots required (to cover the 'x' resistors and replacing the 3296W trimmers - annoyingly, I only ordered 4...!). And I think I read some where that the grounds *not* required for the X resistor replacement...

Thanks to Richard for sharing the details of his build, and I hope he doesn't mind me aggregating the info he supplied into one chunk
neilbaldwin
A question about the rolls caps. Am I right in thinking the intention of the PCB is to have two rows of rolls (3,4,5,6 on each row) as in the picture below?

Then is it wise to have the same cap value for each node in each of the rolls? i.e. the 3-rolls on the top row all have same value but maybe have a different value on the 3-rolls on the bottom row and so on? Presumably having the same value for each node of the rolls gives you equal distance pulses?

This bit still confuses me and I've lost my notes that I made when I built one last year :(

mrbloor
You are right Neil, use same value caps in each roll & that is how the boards are laid out. Now have a beer you clever chap ;-) different values is a sensible move so two different varieties of 3, 4, 5, and 6's. The different value caps gives some nice rhythms and the 'paradox' of the odd rollz inject some nice 'slips & skips' in the beat.
neilbaldwin
Anyone else manage to burn out the power starve pot?

I'm wondering if it's to do with the vactrol? I used a VTLC3.
neilbaldwin
Can you use any value pot for the power starve?
xahdrez
Have you turned it full CCW? I know some found the direction unexpected (I.e. Full CCW = fully powered, CW = starve) so just in case thought I'd re-emphasise cos it tripped a few of us up!

I used DIY vactrol and it worked fine, but don't think it would make much difference.
Waves
Hey guys, small question about the 22..k resistors with a via running through the middle so you can't see for sure if it's 22k or 220k

22k or 220k?[/img]
cygmu
I have had a poke about on my unfinished board with a multimeter today.

I think the resistor you are asking about connects pin 8 of a TL084 to pin 3 of a TL082. It is also connected to a 4k7 at the pin 8 end.

So it must be the resistor just below the 4k7 on the paper circuit:
http://ciat-lonbarde.net/rollz5/man/05.gif

which means it's 220k.

Strangely this resistor does not appear at all on Richard Brewster's schematic for the AVdog.
http://pugix.com/synth/rollz-5-schematics/

Edit: I've figured out what this resistor does and yes, it's definitely 220k and it is definitely missing from the pugix schematic. It sets the threshold voltage for the Schmitt-trigger oscillator in the AVDog.
Laughing
A small post here, sorry if this has already been covered in the thread but:

I've gotten the entirety of my board soldered, and not a squeak comes out. I've poked around with an oscilloscope, starting with the rolls sources, and with 47uF caps, the 4 roll or the 5 roll are giving me oscillations past 100khz. Is this correct? I even breadboarded out the circuit given on Pugix, and I get the same thing for the same values.
nearly ghost
My apologies for derailing this thread a little but does anyone know if these can be commissioned from anyone?
mrbloor
nearly ghost wrote:
My apologies for derailing this thread a little but does anyone know if these can be commissioned from anyone?


Neil has built a few link
nearly ghost
mrbloor wrote:
nearly ghost wrote:
My apologies for derailing this thread a little but does anyone know if these can be commissioned from anyone?


Neil has built a few link


thanks for the link i'll look into it
elcoco
Hi guys sorry for bumping an old thread but I was wondering if anyone had a PCB they never built and wouldn't mind trading me something for it or I would also be willing to buy it off someone. fingers crossed!! thumbs up
Dirty_Bill
elcoco wrote:
Hi guys sorry for bumping an old thread but I was wondering if anyone had a PCB they never built and wouldn't mind trading me something for it or I would also be willing to buy it off someone. fingers crossed!! thumbs up


elcoco - PM me...
Waves
Hey guys, a couple questions about the rollz sections.

Are you using the same value capacitors within each rollz section?

Are you using slower caps for the smaller rollz sections, so like a 3 rollz would be 47uF and a 6 rollz would be .1uF?

And do all the rollz caps have to be electrolytic polarized? or can I use film/ceramic caps too?

Thanks
roqeja
I'd be interested in a pcb if anyone has a spare...?
mudlogger
Also interested in a PCB if any spares going, thx
egilegilegil
Anyone knows if these PCB's are still available somewhere or can be ordered from Meng Qi? If someone has a spare I would love to purchase it smile
Doublecoolbossman
Me too!
lcf
It's available again, and a fresh new version Guinness ftw!
https://modularaddict.com/manufacturer/meng-qi/mengqi-rollz5-pcb
windspirit
Whats new about this one?
neilbaldwin
Rollz-5, Meng Qi, rev 3 board.

Hoping someone can help restore my sanity with this. This is the 4th one I've built but I've never had an issue with them before.

Couple of issues I can't figure out. The first one is probably straightforward though I'm stumped because I didn't deviate from the specified components: the envelopes on the gongs are really short, little more than clicks (but you can discern the amplitude decay over time).

The second one is more baffling. No audio comes from triggering the av dogs. However, if I patch something into the ultrasound (on the same 'side') you can hear the av dog sounding. Further to this, if I drop the supply voltage to below 9V (multi-volt DC adapter) then the av dogs work. Also, if I remove the 4066 IC from the ultrasounds (or the TL082s, essentially breaking the ultrasound circuit) then the av dogs work. What is even stranger is that this is true for all 4 circuits so either is an aspect common to all 4 or somehow I managed to make the same mistake 4 times! I checked all the components of the ultrasound circuits against the silk screen last night and everything seems in order.

I've tried several different 9V supplies and there's no difference. I've removed all of the ICs and checked the VCC and GND and also the mido voltages and they all appear correct. The 22K-to-ground mod has been done on the TL082s as required on the V3 boards.

Any help or suggestions much appreciated.
dinorrific
I just picked up one of the fourth revision boards, and I have a couple of questions:

At the top of the new board, each rollzer jack has six solder points underneath, where I assume the rollz caps would go. How do I use this section? It looks like it's been optomized for a switch, but I can't figure out what specifically to do with that section.

How do I wire the power jack? Since it's two concentric circles, do I solder a positive wire to the center port and the ground to the outer one, or is there a specific jack that I should solder to the board?
VauxFlores
I was actually going to send up a post with the same question re: caps and dc jack, as well as if there are part numbers for the output jack and the new banana jacks mentioned on the mengqi instagram. someone? anyone?
skydorker
I got one of the new rollz-5 boards and was wondering if the ICs are 074 and 072 (as stated on the board) or 084 and 082 (the same as previous versions) or weather it matters which is use?
Laughing
@Skydorker

It doesn't matter which you use, the 74/72 are simply lower noise versions of the same IC.
skydorker
Laughing wrote:
It doesn't matter which you use, the 74/72 are simply lower noise versions of the same IC.


Much appreciated dude!
Slopstream
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this question, but...

I'm curious, has any of you had any problems with powering your units?

I recently aquired a pre-built meng qi rollz-5+ without psu. (it's great) From what I've read it can run on a 9-12 volt center positive power source, ampere not specified. I've tried a few different power supplies and the units sounds and works great when plugged in to the mixer on it's own. But, when I try to run it trough an effect or signal chain only half the signal comes through and it's screeching and sounding like crap. It really puts me off. Not sure if it's a power issue, even. Any ideas on how to solve it? Thanks.

Edit: Solved it.
dinorrific
I've got answers to my previous post:

dinorrific wrote:
I just picked up one of the fourth revision boards, and I have a couple of questions:

At the top of the new board, each rollzer jack has six solder points underneath, where I assume the rollz caps would go. How do I use this section? It looks like it's been optomized for a switch, but I can't figure out what specifically to do with that section.

How do I wire the power jack? Since it's two concentric circles, do I solder a positive wire to the center port and the ground to the outer one, or is there a specific jack that I should solder to the board?


While I haven't heard back from Meng Qi or anyone on Muffwiggler, I've found some parts that seem to fit the bill for the Rollz-5:

1) I'm using these banana jacks (https://www.ebay.com/itm/322504540931 ). They don't appear to need soldering, since they fit pretty tightly into the holes without screwing them in. The top plastic parts can also be unscrewed separately, so they can be used by touch in addition to banana cables. They get a little loose when using tight cables, though, so make sure to user longer ones if possible.

2) I ordered a bunch of these kinds of 2x3 female headers for the rollz section (http://m.ebay.com/itm/263158902746?_mwBanner=1), so I can patch different combinations of capacitors without committing to one particular group.

3) I used a five-pronged vertical-mount stereo jack I picked up off Digikey (sorry, I couldn't find the link). It fits perfectly, and works like a charm.

4) I couldn't find a specific dc entry jack that fit his Instagram image, but this one seems to come close (https://www.ebay.com/itm/171939194131 ). The tip should fit the hole in the circuit board, and my plan is to clip and bend the sleeve lead and solder it to the surface of the board. While I'm waiting for it to come in, I took a standard 3-pronged 9 volt socket, connected the center pin the outer concentric circle, and the rear pin into the middle one, and that seems to work in the interim.

You can see some test patches with the new board here: https://www.instagram.com/p/BYv0YThg5JJ/. I'm still playing around with some of the variable values using some female headers I cut up and soldered in place, but I'm probably going to replace those with specific components or pots as soon as they come in.
skydorker
i found these power jack that seem to match the ones on meng qi's instagram

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20pcs-Soldering-5-5mmx2-1mm-DC-Power-Female- Jack-Socket-Adapter-Connector/291552568954?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3A IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
VauxFlores
Not sure if it's the case for anyone else, but most of my questions were answered by way on an unexpected package from Modular Addict containing all the rare parts I could hope for in this build (banana jacks, power, stereo plug and a fancy meng qi sticker).

Moving on to the next question of group-sourced intrigue: Anyone come up with a nice drill template for a front panel interface for this revision? I can probably sketch something up eventually, but hey, easy way out.
lcf
Yes I received these unexpected parts.
I'd be interested in a drill template or enclosure too. The acrylic one was nice.
Does anybody made a BOM for this rev? A few parts have changed compared to the old BOM from Meng Qi.
krazh
the unexpected package arrived after I was mistakenly sent an additional pcb by them.
inspite of my offer to purchase or return the pcb, to my surprise their lovely gesture followed.
SPIKE the Percussionist
will there be more available?
seriously, i just don't get it
jimmie
I've just got a second-hand Rollz5, pcb rev3. Went thru this thread prior so some of the things are sort of expected.. but wow this will take some time to get used to. Plumbutter feels an instrument but this I feel like a lab experiment device lol

I'm not sure everything is working as expected. Starve thing seems suspicious.
So, a few questions if somebody can help me..

- is there any way to control volume of each generator? (gongs too quite compare to others)
- gong's delay knob doesn't seem to work for all gongs
- gong's one trimmer for the pitch, what's for the other?
- do I expect to hear sound when I connect odd rolz to ultrasound?
- some people made a drone noise (or avdog?) how's that possible?
- what kind of sound effect do you expect from starve function? mine crackles when I turn CW a bit and all the sound is gone except faint noise on the background, so I think it's fried.


help appreciated!
jimmie
hmm... does anybody know what are knobs and trimmers of a gong?

Of 4 gongs of mine, only has effect of "decay" for one knob, another one does nothing... And one trimmer sets the pitch but the other is mystery..

It doesn't looking like it's broken but kind of feel like got a lemeon Dead Banana

Aside from that, I'm so hooked to this beast. Despite almost no control compare to PB2, the sound this device makes (well, mostly ultrasound) so unpredictable and never can achieve with PB2. I'm not a big fan of ultrasound of PB2 and but now I know what's the big deal about it with rollz5. Volume knob is so wanted!
darmklacht@gmail.com
Is it time for another batch?
It would be for me! Hit me up If you have a PCB left.
paperwork
MQ sez on Instagram "rollz-5 PCB shipping to @modularaddict tomorrow" a few days ago (http://www.instagram.com/p/Bbi1bCJnbxW/)

You can sign up for email notification on the modularaddict page - https://modularaddict.com/mengqi-rollz5-pcb

SlayerBadger!
darmklacht@gmail.com
cool thanks!
SPIKE the Percussionist
paperwork wrote:
MQ sez on Instagram "rollz-5 PCB shipping to @modularaddict tomorrow" a few days ago (http://www.instagram.com/p/Bbi1bCJnbxW/)

You can sign up for email notification on the modularaddict page - https://modularaddict.com/mengqi-rollz5-pcb

SlayerBadger!


YASSS!!!

grabbed one of these noiz weapon kits yesterday!
salocinnomis
Got one too!
I was a bit surprised by the price bump, weren't they 35$ before?
Anyway I can't wait to build it, already have nearly all the components at hand (I was gonna build it on paper) , it's gonna be a fun holyday project!
jimmie
What revision is that? Is there something done on power starve part?
salocinnomis
jimmie wrote:
What revision is that? Is there something done on power starve part?

Should be the 4th Revision (or 5th?), it's just marked 2017 on the board.
I just received mine, power starve is gone on this revision.
All the hairy caps for the Rollz can be socketed (with 2x3 Pin headers), and all components except pots, nanas & rollz caps are on the back side (which is too bad for the trimmers..).
The matte black board looks amazing, especially with the gold tube bananas! I'm wondering how i'll house it.. a drilling template could be very useful indeed.
Clemdu
Hello!

Just wondering, all the pots should be linear?

Thanks !
Clemdu
Alright, I went ahead with linear pots.

Also in my hunt for uninsulated bananas, I found this:
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/142428947529

20$ for 50 jacks, sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me, I'll report when I get them.
slope_generator
jimmie wrote:

All the hairy caps for the Rollz can be socketed (with 2x3 Pin headers), and all components except pots, nanas & rollz caps are on the back side (which is too bad for the trimmers..).


I bought one of the new PCBs, and I don't really understand how the hairy caps can be "socketed" with the 2x3 pin header. Could you explain this or send a picture of yours? I understand the concept that different capacitors will yield different results, I just don't get how to connect them to the banana outlets/pin header.
jimmie
slope_generator wrote:
jimmie wrote:

All the hairy caps for the Rollz can be socketed (with 2x3 Pin headers), and all components except pots, nanas & rollz caps are on the back side (which is too bad for the trimmers..).


I bought one of the new PCBs, and I don't really understand how the hairy caps can be "socketed" with the 2x3 pin header. Could you explain this or send a picture of yours? I understand the concept that different capacitors will yield different results, I just don't get how to connect them to the banana outlets/pin header.


oh sorry it's not 2x3 pin header, it's single pin sockets. one like in the pic of oljud's post (look for page 7 of this thread)
slope_generator
Something like this? I'm assuming you could just cut one up and use it that way, and just plug one into the positive jack and one into the opposite end. I'm just assuming there, because I'm confused why there would be the option for a 2x3 header if you just need to connection points for the capacitor.
Also as a more basic question, Meng Qi says that you need to solder the gold banana jacks to the PCB, but it doesn't seem like there's any connection points for them. Does anyone know where/how the new jacks are supposed to be soldered in?
Clemdu
Hey,


I believe there's a 2x3 connection footprint for the hairy caps to easily fit different sizes of capacitors. it doesn't matter in which hole of one row you solder your capacitor leg, as the traces are like this:
Rollz-5 hairy capacitor footprint wrote:
o-o-o
o-o-o


Also, I received the uninsulated bananas, they look good and 0.66$ (shipped to Canada) each is a pretty good price in my books.


And did someone experiment with the hairy cap of the Ultrasound filters? The paper circuits mention that lowering its value "add damping effect to the filter" (slope steepness kind of thing?). I'm wondering if I'm going to socket that one as well. I guess I'll try different values and report here SlayerBadger!
lcf
That would be cool to get a CAD file or something with pots placement.
I mean they are PCB mounted and that would be pretty hard to mesure it.
Clemdu
Meng Qi just posted it on his website wink

Here it is in the manual section
lcf
If somebody make cases or a design for Ponoko please contact me.
I tried but I don't have enough skills to achieve it.

BOM has changed too... Compile it from the PCB is a new experience for me ^^
rmro
I just picked up a rev3 Rollz second hand.

I was trying to figure out how you get the power starve to work, any ideas?

Also there's a banana input at the bottom in between the gongs, does anyone know what this is used for?

thumbs up
rmro
...also on this image the there seems to be some colour coding, but is this actually relevant to any functionality?

https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--tFP5C-il--/a_exif,c_limit,e_ unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_south,h_620,q_90,w_620/v149017 6268/w6bwfvpcrtbd8mml8p96.jpg[/img]
Clemdu
Hello!

What's the issue with your power starve?
I believe that center banana is ground.
The color coding is mostly important for the rollz, to tell them appart.
lcf
Anybody managed to compile a BOM please?
I started by eye but I always loose my count.
A PCB scan would be helpfull too but I don't have a scanner.
rmro
Clemdu wrote:
Hello!

What's the issue with your power starve?
I believe that center banana is ground.
The color coding is mostly important for the rollz, to tell them appart.


Hi, the issue with the power starve I've since learnt is that the potentiometer is missing or has been removed but the vactrol is in place.

If someone could send me a link to a potentiometer I could order and try soldering myself that would be great. Also...as a complete neophyte with with soldering any other hints thumbs up . Thanks
breadman
For anyone keeping track, the differences I've noticed in this most recent layout are:

1. bananas, pots and hairy caps now on the opposite side as the rest of components
2. 4x 1M pots instead of 1x
3. No vactrol power starve
4. LED power indicator added

Am I missing anything?
mudlogger
breadman wrote:
For anyone keeping track, the differences I've noticed in this most recent layout are:

1. bananas, pots and hairy caps now on the opposite side as the rest of components
2. 4x 1M pots instead of 1x
3. No vactrol power starve
4. LED power indicator added

Am I missing anything?


amps have changed to ones with a better noise floor - TL074 and TL072 instead of 84 and 82.

theres an earth banana in the lower, middle of the board.

each rollz has 3 points to put capacitors.

its worth noting that the new pcb kit includes banana jacks, dc jack and output jack so no need to order those parts.

Do not solder the dc jack on the wrong side of the board or it will have no grounding and not power up.

I put all my components on one same side of the board thats how i had the dc jack issue. The workaround was to run a ground wire from the dc power case to one of the mounting holes on the pcb

My only issue at the moment is my rollz are not working.
The volumes are also out - the ultrasounds are very loud and drown out the sounds of all the other sections.
salocinnomis
I just finished building mine, still have to add the 2x3 sockets for the Rollz capacitors, and maybe put the gongs trimmers on the front, tweak a few values here & there, but otherwise everything works!
It sounds great, though quite different from the paper circuits I've built before, the Ultrasound Filters seems way more predictable on this PCB version (but it might be because of my Rollz values, hopefully I'll have some time to study this soon).
mudlogger wrote:

The volumes are also out - the ultrasounds are very loud and drown out the sounds of all the other sections.

That's the only issue I have on my build, their output resistors really needs to be changed.
mudlogger
salocinnomis wrote:
I just finished building mine, still have to add the 2x3 sockets for the Rollz capacitors, and maybe put the gongs trimmers on the front, tweak a few values here & there, but otherwise everything works!
It sounds great, though quite different from the paper circuits I've built before, the Ultrasound Filters seems way more predictable on this PCB version (but it might be because of my Rollz values, hopefully I'll have some time to study this soon).
mudlogger wrote:

The volumes are also out - the ultrasounds are very loud and drown out the sounds of all the other sections.

That's the only issue I have on my build, their output resistors really needs to be changed.


another wiggler recommend i change the output resistors also -
The volume of these things is dependent on the resistor value z (rollz paper circuit) 22k is normal, 10k is louder apparently
I can’t work out why my rollz are not working - they are socketted at the moment and wondering if i solder them in i may get lucky.
I reflowed everything on the rollz side just to make sure.
salocinnomis
[s]
mudlogger wrote:
another wiggler recommend i change the output resistors from 22k to 10k


I was just looking into this, the original paper circuits documentation about the Ultrasound Filters says the opposite :
Quote:
Each output jack has a "z" resistor. Standart is 22k; make it smaller to boost the loudness of any output. Make it bigger to dim a signal.


I guess I'll see when trying smile

Do you plan to make a case for yours? I'm thinking of just laser-cutting some top & bottom acrylic panels, and leave the sides open but I'm not sure.. a nice wooden case would be great too love (or something like this wonderful build : https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/17494324_9842 00685050126_8730010015441616896_n.jpg)


Edit: You figured out about the "z" resistors in the meantime.
My Rollz's caps are all soldered right now, but I'm gonna replace them with sockets to play with different values. It should not be a problem really.. (I tried some without even soldering them, the size of the holes on the PCB are perfect for this, and they work fine on mine). Hope you'll fix it soon!
mudlogger
salocinnomis wrote:
mudlogger wrote:
another wiggler recommend i change the output resistors from 22k to 10k


I was just looking into this, the original paper circuits documentation about the Ultrasound Filters says the opposite :
Quote:
Each output jack has a "z" resistor. Standart is 22k; make it smaller to boost the loudness of any output. Make it bigger to dim a signal.


I guess I'll see when trying smile

Do you plan to make a case for yours? I'm thinking of just laser-cutting some top & bottom acrylic panels, and leave the sides open but I'm not sure.. a nice wooden case would be great too love (or something like this wonderful build : https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/17494324_9842 00685050126_8730010015441616896_n.jpg)


Edit: You figured out about the "z" resistors in the meantime.
My Rollz's caps are all soldered right now, but I'm gonna replace them with headers to play with different values. It should not be a problem really.. (I tried some without even soldering them, and they work fine on mine).


Thx - yes the comment about changing from 22k to 10k was that 10k would be louder - i edited my words in the previous comment to be clear but too late!

I was going to make a case before the build but as i was building and putting everything on one side of the pcb, i now think its better to mount it on some wood and leave it open so i have easy access to everything
Clemdu
Hey gang!
Quick question here, I'm in the wiring stage, everything's deported on my panel, and I'm going with Richard's mods... so patience is my new friend whistlin'
I started with the ultrasound filters, everything sounds fine and they are dead quiet when nothing is plugged in their input. But as soon as I'm wiring the filter inputs to the panel I'm getting quite a bit of noise picked up.

Should I try shielded wire? For the people with external wiring build (yes Richard, I'm looking at you wink ), how noisy are your filters when nothing's plugged into it?

Thanks!
halandorin
I ordered my pcb from MA last week and just finished the build. The prior comments on the sensitivity to power are no joke. I have great sound quality but little no headroom when using a 9v. When using 12v wallwart, im getting amazing headroom but a lot of ground hum.

Other issues- I'm having a hard time understanding the relation between the variable resistors/hairy caps on the AV dogs. they seem to affect attack and decay but I am not entirely sure. I also dont understand what the pot on the av dog that isnt pitch does. It at times seemed to set overall decay, but I am not sure.

can anyone help? Otherwise, I am loving this thing and cant wait to get my values locked down.
salocinnomis
halandorin wrote:
The prior comments on the sensitivity to power are no joke. I have great sound quality but little no headroom when using a 9v. When using 12v wallwart, im getting amazing headroom but a lot of ground hum.


Had the same issue, I built a small circuit with a 7809 to regulate and filter the power, it now works perfectly with no humming at all. There's a simple schematic on Pugix's website.

halandorin wrote:
Other issues- I'm having a hard time understanding the relation between the variable resistors/hairy caps on the AV dogs. they seem to affect attack and decay but I am not entirely sure. I also dont understand what the pot on the av dog that isnt pitch does. It at times seemed to set overall decay, but I am not sure.

I still have to experiment with AVDog's resistors/caps, some of mine are really responsive other not so much. The first knob is the enveloppe rate (controls the number of "ripples"/repetitions of the enveloppe, like a bouncing ball), it seems to work better with slower rolls, if they are too fast the enveloppe doesn't have enough time to repeat itself before being retriggered by another pulse.
Clemdu
Clemdu wrote:
Hey gang!
Should I try shielded wire? For the people with external wiring build (yes Richard, I'm looking at you wink ), how noisy are your filters when nothing's plugged into it?


Answering to myself here, some RG-174 did the trick, with the shield grounded on the panel side, my ultrasounds are very clean and silent when nothing's plug in it cool
corpusjonsey

Clemdu
Nice and clean build! SlayerBadger!

Just curious, what Rollz values did you settle down with?
corpusjonsey
Thanks! I'm currently trying 10u and 0.1u on the 3, 4.7u and 0.1u on the 4, 10u and 0.1u on the 5 and 10u and 1u on the 6.

Not sure I like the 0.1u on the 3 roll. The rest are cool so far.



rmro
[quote="corpusjonsey"]Thanks! I'm currently trying 10u and 0.1u on the 3, 4.7u and 0.1u on the 4, 10u and 0.1u on the 5 and 10u and 1u on the 6.

Not sure I like the 0.1u on the 3 roll. The rest are cool so far.

Hey,

Could you please explain what these numbers mean? I didn't build my Rollz and end up wondering why some Rolls don't seem to output anything? Are they intended to be rests or to filter pulses out?

Any shedding of light would be most welcome!
salocinnomis
They are Rolls' capacitors values, Roll-3 have 3, Roll-4 have 4 etc..
Usually you'd choose the same values within a Roll, but you could also mix them (time between pulses will vary which make the whole thing more chaotic).
On the last revision you can put 2x3 pins headers to socket them (which is really nice).

How did you check the Rolls were not outputting anything if you didn't build your Rollz?

The odd-numbered rolls oscillate at really high frequencies, so monitoring them directly you might not hear anything but that's normal, you're supposed to translate them with the ultrasound filters, and of course to use them to disrupt other Rolls.
The even rolls emit pulses like metronomes, so monitoring them you'd get loud pulses (be careful with your ears/speakers).
ClausF
A Rolls alone makes no sound, it triggers the other modules (AVDog, Ultrasound, Gongue). But Rolls can make sound if you combine them (with attenuators), see the Rollz-5 paper from Peter.

That works with the paper circuits and with the CL Rollzer, which should be the same inside.
rmro
I guess what I'm trying to explain is:

The Rollz5 has 8 x 4Rolls.

I have my default 4Roll which I usually patch into a Gongue to get a steady pulse going, this one is one from the bottom row.

If I patch one of the 4Rolls from the top row there's no sound from the Gongue.

If I have lots of Rollz patched into multiple Rollz, both odd and even the the 4Rolls from the top row will have some influence on the chaos.

My question was whether these eg: filter pulses out? Or just why do some 4Rolls trigger the Gongue whilst others don't.
corpusjonsey
rmro wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to explain is:

The Rollz5 has 8 x 4Rolls.

I have my default 4Roll which I usually patch into a Gongue to get a steady pulse going, this one is one from the bottom row.

If I patch one of the 4Rolls from the top row there's no sound from the Gongue.

If I have lots of Rollz patched into multiple Rollz, both odd and even the the 4Rolls from the top row will have some influence on the chaos.

My question was whether these eg: filter pulses out? Or just why do some 4Rolls trigger the Gongue whilst others don't.


The Rollz-5 I built (Meng Qi 2017 rev) has 2 of each 3,4,5,6 roll. The caps are the timing between stages. Larger cap value = longer time between each stage. Each banana jack outputs a pulse at one of the stages. On LTSpice I calculated that 0.1uF = 0.066s between pulses, 1uF = 0.66s, 10uF = 6.6s, 47uF = 31s, 100uF = 66s etc. Of course the odd rolls oscillate out of control so the timing I describe only can be perceived on the even rolls. Times are approximate. Study the rollz papers to gain an understanding of how rolls are set up.
bunkerspreckles
Heyhi!

I'm wondering if anybody who has added the Brewster mods could point me in the direction of where to find some dual gang A1M pots.
I got the B1M dual gangs for his output mixer at Mammoth, but I'm having a hard time finding the "A" style tapers, except at Mouser, who want $4.68 a pop for them! sad banana
Or, if not, does anyone know if using the B1Ms instead of A1Ms for the Gong and AVD dual gangs would make much difference?
GrantB
bunkerspreckles wrote:
Heyhi!

I'm wondering if anybody who has added the Brewster mods could point me in the direction of where to find some dual gang A1M pots.
I got the B1M dual gangs for his output mixer at Mammoth, but I'm having a hard time finding the "A" style tapers, except at Mouser, who want $4.68 a pop for them! sad banana
Or, if not, does anyone know if using the B1Ms instead of A1Ms for the Gong and AVD dual gangs would make much difference?



http://www.smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/alpha-dual-gang-16m m-solder-terminals-linear-audio/
bunkerspreckles
GrantB-- Thanks! thumbs up
rmro
Quote:

The Rollz-5 I built (Meng Qi 2017 rev) has 2 of each 3,4,5,6 roll. The caps are the timing between stages. Larger cap value = longer time between each stage. Each banana jack outputs a pulse at one of the stages. On LTSpice I calculated that 0.1uF = 0.066s between pulses, 1uF = 0.66s, 10uF = 6.6s, 47uF = 31s, 100uF = 66s etc. Of course the odd rolls oscillate out of control so the timing I describe only can be perceived on the even rolls. Times are approximate. Study the rollz papers to gain an understanding of how rolls are set up.


I've recently been patching Rollz outputs into an Loop input on my Coco 2, and monitoring this with an Oscilloscope plugin. I can see what's going on with the Rollz, some are slow with a strong click others chaotic and noisy sounding.

What still baffles me is some of the Rollz which output a strong click will produce audio out of a Gongue whilst another doing the same thing doesn't?

Also, when you say the Rollz you built only has 2 '2 of each 3,4,5,6 roll' what do all the others do, are they noisy chaotic versions?

hmmm.....
corpusjonsey
rmro wrote:
Quote:

The Rollz-5 I built (Meng Qi 2017 rev) has 2 of each 3,4,5,6 roll. The caps are the timing between stages. Larger cap value = longer time between each stage. Each banana jack outputs a pulse at one of the stages. On LTSpice I calculated that 0.1uF = 0.066s between pulses, 1uF = 0.66s, 10uF = 6.6s, 47uF = 31s, 100uF = 66s etc. Of course the odd rolls oscillate out of control so the timing I describe only can be perceived on the even rolls. Times are approximate. Study the rollz papers to gain an understanding of how rolls are set up.


I've recently been patching Rollz outputs into an Loop input on my Coco 2, and monitoring this with an Oscilloscope plugin. I can see what's going on with the Rollz, some are slow with a strong click others chaotic and noisy sounding.

What still baffles me is some of the Rollz which output a strong click will produce audio out of a Gongue whilst another doing the same thing doesn't?

Also, when you say the Rollz you built only has 2 '2 of each 3,4,5,6 roll' what do all the others do, are they noisy chaotic versions?

hmmm.....


One roll consists of multiple outputs. Ex: a 4 roll has 4 banana output jacks, a 5 roll has 5 outputs. The rollz-5 has two rows of 3, two rows of 4, 5, 6. One row (of 3, 4, 5 or 6) is a roll.
rmro
Could someone please point in the right direction for which potentiometer I'd need to install to get my power starve to function.

I've heard about power starve being potentially damaging things so a little wary.

I tried sending cv out of my coco into the power starve but didn't seem to have any effect on the sound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHyn1q_k1Ok
diophantine
Got my board a week or two ago and made some Ponoko panels, which arrived yesterday. I still need to build up the board, but as far as I can tell (by placing the pots & jacks) these panels will work fine.

They are based on the panel template provided by Meng Qi, minus the holes for the pot anti-rotation lugs. Includes front panel (holes only), front panel (holes + basic engraved lines), and back panel (screw holes only). I copied all 3 into one of their P3 templates and got them all done on a single sheet.
diophantine
I was thinking of installing sockets for all X, Y, and Z resistors (except those covered by trimpots), as well as the hairy caps (besides the ones in the Rolls sections).

Anyone tried this? Any thoughts on it? Wasn't planning to make any other modifications, aside from possibly an external 12V to 9V power regulator circuit.

Update: looks like all Y resistors are now covered by pots, so it would just be the X and Z resistors, and the hairy caps.
jimmie
since I've got a rolzer maybe my rolz5 is on sale, although rolzer+plumbutter isn't quite same to rolz5. but am low on cash... if interested pm me..
rmro
I'd be really interested in hearing any audio or any vids using the Rolzer with PB and Coco, there's not much about. I was using a Rolz-5 with a PB briefly and wondered if it was similar
jimmie
rmro wrote:
I'd be really interested in hearing any audio or any vids using the Rolzer with PB and Coco, there's not much about. I was using a Rolz-5 with a PB briefly and wondered if it was similar


check the youtube video i posted to the ciat jam thread. well, it's just demoing only fractional thing of the whole thing. you may find ultrasound's doing its things quite similar sound to rolz5. rolzer's rolls can also modulate pitch of AvDog/Gongs, which with 'normal' rolz5 you can't do.

maybe i'll post more video or audio in the future. oh, if my memory serves a couple weeks ago i also posted a short video of coco(to be precise, quantussy) modulated by rolzer to my twitter...
diophantine
Word of wisdom: do NOT buy the SparkFun 3x2 headers!

I rarely order from SparkFun, but had a few things in my cart & saw the 3x2 headers were significantly cheaper there (I'd be saving $20), compared to buying Harwin ones from Mouser. And then I bought them, and stupidly installed them without testing them out.

They won't hold your cap leads conductively! I've been trying to do a few things to my cap leads, like tinning them a bit, mangling them with pliers, etc. but I'm not happy with any solution so far.

Hope you don't make the same mistake!
salocinnomis
I bought these from ebay in china, received them in two weeks and they fit perfectly : https://www.ebay.fr/itm/50PCS-2x3-Pin-6P-2-54mm-Double-Row-Female-Stra ight-Header-Pitch-Socket-Pin-Strip/191736126595?hash=item2ca45d1c83:g: LLkAAOSwtnpXnuzx
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