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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

new modular plan...feedback welcome
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Author new modular plan...feedback welcome
anselmi
after reading loads of threads here and some good advices from you I re-arrange my planner scheme into that



what I want:

3 VCOs
very fast EGs
precise filters
some CV "distortion"
ring modulation
some gate/clock basic process
a versatile LFO
some utility LFO

feedback welcome!!!
Limey
i'd swap one of the 132-3 for something else.
maybe a plague bearer to mud things up a little.
or a multple jack and a M37 LFO
a total of nine VCA's seem a bit too much for a small system like this.
definatly a multiple jack for the three VCOs and modulation
otherwise a adequate bread and butter setup Driving
camo livers
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1135

Link above is the thread named post your setup. Pages and pages of peoples set up's in case you need more inspiration. Everyone's is going to be different so go with what feels right for you.

This is what I am working on for building a full 6u rack

2x z3000 vco
AS vc0-sub
z2040 LP-vcf
Dalek Modulator
A-101-2 lpg (edit not 101-9 actually had to go and look cause it didnt seem right)
A-143-1 comp LFO
QMMG
Flame Clockwork or A190-2


maybe if it fits AS mulit-mode filter/vca thumbs up
incekt
i was looking at the A-111-5, but without a sync i find it useless.....
ndkent
The makenoise mod-demod isn't readily available afaik and you have a ring mod on the vc02-RM, the passive behavior makes it weirder though except for the demod effect probably less flexible than an active ringmod.

I'm sure some might argue but the DMF-2 isn't that interesting a filter to have let alone 2 two of.

You's probably want a sample & hold and also a lag/slew of some sort.
wetterberg
incekt wrote:
i was looking at the A-111-5, but without a sync i find it useless.....
really?... really?!?

As a side-note (gosh, could have sworn I wrote this earlier:)
I'll take it for the printed GBP pricing! eek!
dkcg
I would get rid of the A-190-2 and replace it with some sort of slew like ndkent recommended. I'm not sure about the 111-5 as well. The DMF is nice n clean, should complement the QMMG in filter mode well. That is a lot of VCAs for 3 envelopes (even with the LFOs, but the VCAs only respond to the positive side of the signal (if I remember correctly).
NV
That's a ton of VCAs for 6U worth of modules. You could easily cut out 4 of them and you'd still have plenty of VCA capabilities for that setup. The A-132-3s are great, but with a QMMG in a 6U system I would suggest getting rid of both of them in favor of other modules, or (gasp) getting rid of the QMMG if you prefer, although the QMMG's additional mixing capabilities would come in great use for a smaller system.

You'll need a multiple without a doubt, a standard 4HP one would likely be fine. Since it's passive you can have it sit outside of your system if you're really strapped for space.

Personally I would recommend purchasing an outboard MIDI-CV converter. The Kenton Pro-Solo MkII isn't dramatically more expensive than the Doepfer 190-2 but it has a somewhat different feature set and will free up room for another module.

The A-161 is considered the de facto companion to the A-160. Use it in conjunction with a mixer like the A-138 to attenuate the gate voltages and you end up with a basic sequencer.

The ModDemod is a fantastic module, but in a smaller system I'm not sure you would need the equivalent of 3 ring modulators. You may want to leave it out and focus on the ring mod in the VCO-2RM, particularly since the ModDemod is out of production at the moment.

I think a small aggressive module would add a lot of variety to your system. The Plague Bearer is only 8HP and is one of the most inexpensive modules out there, yet it can dramatically impact your system.
anselmi
wow, great advices from you guys! thanks a lot!

first, about VCAs:

well, I was asking in another thread about that...the general answer was that the QMMG is far from a standard VCA, even in VCA mode...some people quoted them as "slow response" and I think this is due the vactrol "inertia" that is what make them rings too...

as I said before I like fast envelopes so, I choose the cwejman ones because of their impressive .1 ms attack...but I think you can hear that if you coupled it with a fast VCA too, right?...so I got the 132-3 for that and leave the QMMG for other dutties...I mean, I not like all my sounds lighning speed so maybe this is a good niche for the QMMG slow response...
Am I right???...I´m very inexperte with lowpass gates, I´m just following what you say in other threads but maybe I´m missing something...


second: the filters

I love the cwejman sound and I think this is a really killer precise filter...cwejman got the multi-mode one but I used to think that for the difference you got twice of them...but maybe you´re right and I can rid off the HPF and the double cwejman and get the multi-mode cwejman and another LPF...maybe the frequensteiner and the plague bearer, of course



third: multiples

I want them as an add on, in a rack, like the ones in those MW cases



fourth: MIDI/CV

...mmm...kenton, yeah...I´ll re-design the case and see what happens




fifth: modemod

out of production???? fuck!



last: A-111 5

I included that because I want a third oscillator, a second simple filter, a second simple LFO and a third ADSR...plus another things...and this got it all in a single and relative cheap module

If the cwejman voice module would got an envelope out I think I´ll choose it...

I also considere to get the dark energy instead of the A-111 5 and the MIDI/CV....and get the same features plus leaving some space for further upgrade but I live in uruguay, south america and modulars are WAY far from here...so I got really few chances for upgrade


well, I got some homework to do...please read the VCA part and tell me if I´m far from reality...to add or not the 132-3 or the QMMG could make a big change into my scheme!

thanks guys!
dougcl
I don't have the DMF2, so I can't speak about it, but if you want precise filters, I am assuming you're talking in part at least about tracking and you should know that the Frequensteiner does not track. So I'm not sure what you should replace that filter with, assuming you are thinking about replacing it. I would argue that you can just leave it out altogether and rely on the QMMG for filtering duties at first. If you can afford it, I would get the VCA-4MX and eliminate your mixer and two VCA's. This would free up a lot of space. So with the filter, vca's and mixer gone, with just a VCA-4MX instead, you can think about adding a fun module like a BBD or PLL, or woggle, etc.

The rest of the system looks really good, I think.
dkcg
anselmi wrote:
as I said before I like fast envelopes so, I choose the cwejman ones because of their impressive .1 ms attack...but I think you can hear that if you coupled it with a fast VCA too, right?...so I got the 132-3 for that and leave the QMMG for other dutties...I mean, I not like all my sounds lighning speed so maybe this is a good niche for the QMMG slow response...
Am I right???...I´m very inexperte with lowpass gates, I´m just following what you say in other threads but maybe I´m missing something...


I have the a bunch of LPGs (QMMG & PlanB), I very rarely use them for CVs. I always use the Cwejman VCA-4MX (which the Cwejman ADSRs sound GREAT though) or the Doepfer 132-3. Nice thing about the Cwejman quad VCA is that it works extremely well with CVs and audio (same goes for the Doepfer). Something about the way CVs go through both the QMMG and the PlanB M13 doesn't feel quite right, I'm pretty sure it's the slowness of the vactrols (even in VCA mode). I would keep at least one 132-3 for use with CVs and audio when not feeling LPGatey.


Quote:

I love the cwejman sound and I think this is a really killer precise filter...cwejman got the multi-mode one but I used to think that for the difference you got twice of them...but maybe you´re right and I can rid off the HPF and the double cwejman and get the multi-mode cwejman and another LPF...maybe the frequensteiner and the plague bearer, of course


You may need some sort of gain on the MMF, it's on the quiet side and I usually need to boost it with an ASys preamp to get the levels up, but I prefer it over the dual filter since it has many more modes, but you get only one output, the DMF is nice for working in stereo. I really like the Frequensteiner, very colorful, but some have complained about crosstalk or noise levels. Make sure to listen to the Malekko Borg and the Boogie too, I really like how they sound.

Quote:

third: multiples

I want them as an add on, in a rack, like the ones in those MW cases


Just be aware if you have CVs start to drop voltage when multed a bunch you could need a buffered CV (but wait until you need one).
anselmi
OK guys, taking all what you said here I re-visit my demo/manuals library and re-plan the system into the pic below:

1. as you said maybe 2 cwejman oscillators and 2 cwejman filters are too much on the pristine side, so I decide to put a VM-1 instead and that way I got a multimode cwejman filter, an oscillator, a VCA and 2 EGs

Even with no exportable EGs I can use them internally and route audio from other sources to the filter and VCA

2. my other choise is the AFG...I think it can complement the cwejman one and got plenty of options

3. OK, the borg filter catch me! nothing more to say! great!

4. bubblesound LFOs got all I want from a VCO...and if they tracks pitch until 5 khz I can use one as a third oscillator

5. the cwejman VCA...well, yeah...I need some other VCA than the one on the VM-1, probable 2...and a mixer...and some other for CVs...so this is perfect...compact and clear

I love to make multiple sounds at the same time, like noodling percussions kits so for me multiple VCAs is a must


6. the QMMG...for all other vactrol duties

7. the modemod...yeah..."out of production"...is this forever?..I need to fill that gap!

and for the MIDI/CV I´ll take your advice on the kenton pro solo mkII


dougcl
I don't think the Cwejman VCO-2RM, ADSR, VCA-4MX and QMMG combo is too clean at all. Going back to the VCO-2RM gives you more room, and a ring mod, so you can replace the md/demod with a S&H or ASR.
bar|none
Kudos for choosing key cwejmans at the start, especially the 4mx and ADSR. I would replace the VM-1 with the VCO-2RM for the same reasons dougcl mentions. 2 x uLFOs might be a bit mcuh for a small rack. I'd go with 1 + if you can find a used m37, that could be a very space efficient 2nd LFO and it can go into audio range as well as a VCO.

Also remember that the VCO-2RM has an LFO mode, so you already have enough LFOs.

You need a multiple. Or are you making an external one?

The AFG uses a ton of space in a 6u. Do you really want that now?
NV
The AFG is without a doubt an enormously powerful oscillator. It does take up a large amount of space, but the number of options available for a single oscillator is without peer. It's a very personal choice in that regard - there are no "better" oscillators, only smaller, and in 6U smaller can be a very important feature.

The ModDemod is out of production indefinitely, meaning that Make Noise has tentative plans to release a modified version of it. When and if this might happen is anyone's guess, and when it does it may very well be 6HP or so. To be perfectly frank, give up on it for now.

The VCA-4MX is a great choice for a small system - compact, clean, and with mixing capabilities. But in my own opinion, I still see twice as many VCAs as you really need. I understand you like to make multiple sounds at the same time, but VCAs are not necessary to produce a sound, only to sculpt it. I'm not sure if you would really be sculpting 9 separate signals with only a few envelopes and sound sources. You could assign 2 VCAs to each envelope in your system and you still have one VCA left over. With the lack of a mixer in your new setup other than the mixing options in the QMMG and VCA-4MX, you may end up using the Cwejman or QMMG as a very expensive mixer and little else. Maybe others disagree, but I think if someone asked point blank "should I have 9 VCAs in a 6U system?" people would unequivocally say "what?"

The uLFO is shaping up to be a great module, but two in 6U is a bit much in my opinion. You could fit a couple very interesting modules in that space which could add a great deal to your system. As it stands now, you have 4 oscillators and no source of the distortion that you mentioned initially. In the space of a uLFO, you could fit a Plaguebearer and another 4-6HP module, a comprehensive waveshaper like the STG Wavefolder or the Doepfer A-137, a unique timbre module like the Malgorithm, Z5000, or Doepfer A-188 BBD, or even something nutty like the Wogglebug or Zorlon Cannon. Honestly I think any one of those modules will add much more power and variety to your system than a fourth oscillator; 3 modular oscillators can go an enormous deal further than 3 "standard" oscillators that people are accustomed to from linear architecture synths. For example, the AFG alone is capable of outputting 8 audio signals simultaneously.

Just out of curiosity, how are you planning on using the A-165 trigger modifier?

Last, just to play devil's advocate, have you considered a 9U case? 6U can lead to a lot of moving things around for an "almost there" setup, whereas 9U has room to satisfy the basics as well as the fringe. With the multiple low cost options out there now, it's much more feasible than in the past and is actually significantly more cost effective per-HP than other options.
felix
NV wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how are you planning on using the A-165 trigger modifier?

I'm curious about that as well. I have one and almost never use it, despite having all these grand ideas of how useful it would end up being.

NV wrote:
Last, just to play devil's advocate, have you considered a 9U case?

That's not a bad suggestion. If you feel like you're making serious concessions to fit everything into 6U, seriously consider 9.

My overall suggestion is don't focus to much on wide range of "character". A lot of people like to focus on that, but that's exactly what leads to larger systems. In a small system, functionality is going to trump character in terms of how much use you get out of it as an instrument.

It also depends on what your end goals are. If you're looking for a super flexible mono-synth-like arrangement, you're needs are going to be vastly different than someone who's goal is a "drone/soundscape" box or an experimental "performance" system.

Cramming stuff into 6U is definitely really hard and requires a lot of time and focus on all sorts of tiny details and figuring out which is more important/useful. It's likely incredibly hard if it's your first system because you don't yet have a strong idea of which modules are going to be as useful as you think. I've been trying to put together a small performance system in 6U for over a year and it's been very difficult (and aside from the Hertz and Piston, all modules I already own). I think I'm almost there now though:



You can see just from looking at this that my end goals may be much different from yours just based on the modules I picked. I also have and have used the majority of these modules, so I know exactly what I like, don't like, and how they best fit for me. Concessions still have to be made. I'd *love* to have the AFG (or two) in there, but it's a lot of space. I've also chosen to pick modules that are already fairly functionally dense and can also really change function by the addition of other modules. For example, the Evin seems like an odd choice, but it can be a CV/Audio mixer, a "dynamic" mult, and also a 4x 4step random sequencer when paired with the gate outputs of the Zorlon. The Piston Honda (while not yet release) can be used a voice source, or as a quantizer/CV shaper for the EGs, or just general FSU box. The Tyme Sefari can function as a phrase sampler, gesture/CV recorder, or a digital delay. The QMMG is my filters, VCAs, LPGs, and audio/voice mixer. The idea behind this was to have a basic 2 voice system, with enough complementary modules to achieve a wide range of different functions and workflows...and I *think* I'm finally there, but it required much rethinking of the goals of what I wanted the system to do for me, and a lot of that had to do with understanding how I most frequently use my current system. If you're putting together a new system from scratch, expect to go through some trial and error with different modules. I'd advocate not buying it all at once either, as tempting as that may be. Pick the ones that appeal to you most, and start with those, and see what you're "missing" and move from there.
anselmi
woah guys!
lot of ideas! lot of stuff to learn!...

before start to write about specific thing I have to say something about my situation:

I´m in a third world country: uruguay...this is in south america, near to argentina

so: is quite hard for me to figure out what could be my workflow with a real modular...my experience is with my nord micromodular and lot of analog stuff (junos, arps, yamaha cs range, sh-101, teisco, younameit)

my plan is to travel to germany in january and get a modular...this system have to be something close to a "closed" one because my opportiunities to travel and to get modules after that wil be very limited...internet purchase isn´t an option because importation taxes are HUGE here...and I mean numbers like 150% over the original price


so I´m trying to compile a good collection of modules for my enjoyment

I know that 6u is a very small system but I know that I can make it does lot of stuff in my own way if I planning it well


back to specific things!

first: the gate processors are for making rythmic stuff...

I use to program lot of noodling percussive stuff in the micromodular that use lot of clock inverters and divisors

for example if you take the square out of an LFO you can use it as a clocked gate to make the base of a 4 on teh floor beat

pass it to an inverter and you get the gate for the uptempo hits

divide it and you start to get gates to fire EGs at different times...if those EGs are opening VCAs you got different sources comming out at different times but always reffering to the original clock

if your clock LFO is able to be modulated then you got all kind of polyrythmic stuff...just use the out of a second LFO to control teh speed of the first...sqare waves works better to constant rytms...move the phase makes shift in the gates around the tempo, change symmetry moves the relationship of 1 and 0 states of the gate...

retrigger could make cool stuff too...

yeah, maybe the flame clockwork could deliver all that but having it in sepparate units makes it much more versatil...you can use the same LFO that is your clock to other more classic LFO dutties or even as an oscillator
because of that I include 2 of them, and because of that I put lot of VCAs

the QMMG could be an odd VCA but I like it for the other possibilities too...filters, feedback, ringing LPGs, mixer

a setup like that use lot of routing so having 2 mixers isn´t a bad thing for me...

lot of my tricks are performed by feedbacking things in controlled ways so here is another example of a system that beneficts of lot of VCAs and routing options

maybe nobody use modular that way here



other than that I want a versatile and mighty 3 oscillator monosynth that coould deliver loads of bass raw power...and I also want oscillators in both clean and dirthy sides...


maybe that long speech with terrible english explain some of your questions

thanks for your advices, I´m really lucky to be here!


PS: I can upload some of my (micro)modular work for you to hear what I do
felix
anselmi wrote:
so: is quite hard for me to figure out what could be my workflow with a real modular...my experience is with my nord micromodular and lot of analog stuff (junos, arps, yamaha cs range, sh-101, teisco, younameit)

well a "real" modular is not that much different than your micromodular, so drawing on your experience with that should be very helpful.


anselmi wrote:
first: the gate processors are for making rythmic stuff...

I use to program lot of noodling percussive stuff in the micromodular that use lot of clock inverters and divisors

for example if you take the square out of an LFO you can use it as a clocked gate to make the base of a 4 on teh floor beat

pass it to an inverter and you get the gate for the uptempo hits

divide it and you start to get gates to fire EGs at different times...if those EGs are opening VCAs you got different sources comming out at different times but always reffering to the original clock

Awesome ideas. In this case though, if you're using an LFO (bipolar) instead of a clock signal (binary unipolar) you'd want the A-175 dual inverter instead. I can check it out when I get home tonight, but I don't know if the trigger modifier would work quite as you'd expect with a bipolar signal like that of a square wave LFO.

anselmi wrote:
lot of my tricks are performed by feedbacking things in controlled ways so here is another example of a system that beneficts of lot of VCAs and routing options

maybe nobody use modular that way here

Feedback and voltage control (VCA) are the some of the biggest attractions of modulars so having plenty (whatever 'plenty' is for you) of VCAs is always a good idea. The QMMG VCA mode works fine too, the only problem I find is the lack of attenuation on the CV inputs which could be handled by an additional attenuator (these can even be passive boxes that sit outside your modular) or your CV generating module if it has an output attenuation (I like pairing the Plan B M10 with the QMMG because it has a bipolar "attenuverting" control for the EG output).
bar|none
Check out the M37 LFO. It will do exactly what you want in a very small 4hp footprint and would be a great compliment to the uLFO.

>the only problem I find is the lack of attenuation on the CV inputs which could be handled by an additional attenuator (these can even be passive boxes that sit outside your modular)

>I like pairing the Plan B M10 with the QMMG because it has a bipolar "attenuverting" control for the EG output
Check out the M14. It would be very useful in your situation. It is large but I had it in my 6U rack and it was very useful still and subs as a mixer and cross fader too.

The M10 is very nice...2 are better since they can trigger each other nicely.

For the 3 OSC stuff, the MFB OSC-02 is excellent and very compact. Sounds wickely analog and useful for all sorts of stuff. Very easy to layer this VCO into different octave ranges, use PWM etc...I like it a lot and very space efficient.
wetterberg
bar|none wrote:
For the 3 OSC stuff, the MFB OSC-02 is excellent and very compact. Sounds wickely analog and useful for all sorts of stuff. Very easy to layer this VCO into different octave ranges, use PWM etc...I like it a lot and very space efficient.
+1! thumbs up
NV
anselmi wrote:

PS: I can upload some of my (micro)modular work for you to hear what I do


Please do - an example of both what you currently do and what you would like to do with a modular would be a huge help. That would make things more objective.
felix
felix wrote:
anselmi wrote:
first: the gate processors are for making rythmic stuff...

I use to program lot of noodling percussive stuff in the micromodular that use lot of clock inverters and divisors

for example if you take the square out of an LFO you can use it as a clocked gate to make the base of a 4 on teh floor beat

pass it to an inverter and you get the gate for the uptempo hits

divide it and you start to get gates to fire EGs at different times...if those EGs are opening VCAs you got different sources comming out at different times but always reffering to the original clock

Awesome ideas. In this case though, if you're using an LFO (bipolar) instead of a clock signal (binary unipolar) you'd want the A-175 dual inverter instead. I can check it out when I get home tonight, but I don't know if the trigger modifier would work quite as you'd expect with a bipolar signal like that of a square wave LFO.

Nevermind, I just tried the square wave out of the Livewire Vulcan Modulator into the A-165 trigger modifier and it worked just as you would expect it to. grin
dougcl
The A-165 is great. I use it in almost every patch. Granted some of its value is exploited with the A-166 logic, but it's also nice to have a source of triggers in your system in general, especially with the Cwejman ADSR. The fact that it fires on both pos and neg transistions (and provides inverses) is handy.
LDT
I will just say something really boring: I don´t see any attenuation, but I see lots of unattenuated inputs and outputs.
anselmi
felix wrote:

Nevermind, I just tried the square wave out of the Livewire Vulcan Modulator into the A-165 trigger modifier and it worked just as you would expect it to. grin


great! thanks for trying that felix! is good to see that some of my things could be translated to a real modular!

dougcl: in my first plan I added one A-166 too because most of my patches use logic modules...also a switched multiple could be very handy because you can just turn on and of some gating paths by hand.

Anyway my "logicstations" in the micromodular use a lot of them so I don´t have a final solution for that part of the real modular

I was thinking about make the logic matrix in the micromodular and then try to use its outputs as complex gates for the modular...I know my machinedrum could exporta gate for analog synths so maybe I can try it with the micro.

Anyway is handy to have 2 inverters and some clock dividers in the real one so you can modify part of the patch in a more simple and intuitive way

The flame clockwork is something I was considere too...but maybe in the standalone version because it`s too big for such a small system


here a capture of one of my logikstations...form right to left: the main clock and divisors, then the clock modifiers: logic modules, inverters and gate delays...all routing controlled by switches, then the sound generation modules, then the output stage with mixer, stacked mute buttons and a compressor

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