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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

new modular plan...feedback welcome
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page Previous  1, 2 [all]
Author new modular plan...feedback welcome
NV
I see the relationship between the diagram you provided and your plans with your modular. To clarify some of my earlier comments, my issue with the number of VCAs you have isn't with the VCAs themselves (which can double as mixers, attenuators, or even filters); it's with the limited amount of control you have over them. There are many users out there who have only a couple envelopes and many VCAs, but the work they do tends to be more monosynth/drone oriented, which is a setup that can work very adequately with a limited number of envelopes. However, if you're hoping to achieve the rhythmic ideas you mentioned in some of your previous posts, I think you'll want more envelopes. You can use gates for that purpose, but I'm not sure if that approach would provide the response you're looking for. For example, in the diagram you provided I see 8 channels of audio and 8 envelopes to go along with them. In your current modular plans you have 9 potential modulated channels of audio but only 3 envelopes, one of which is hardwired within the VM-1 and can't be patched out to an external source.

A quick and simple way to add more envelopes would be to add a Doepfer A-143-1 or A-143-2. For your purposes you'd likely prefer the A-143-1, as of the 8 envelopes in your Logikstation patch, 6 of them are AD envelopes and one is an AHD. The A-143-1 is also capable of outputting variable gates through the comparators, as well as being capable of firing the envelopes sequentially without outside patching. The envelopes can also be switched to function as extra basic LFOs. However, both the A-143-1 and A-143-2 are rather large modules, which brings us back to the 9U idea.

I think your intended goals for your modular (aside from a basic monosynth) would be far better realized in a 9U system than 6U. You could very well get there in 6U, but I think you might end up making a number of concessions and sacrifices that you wouldn't need to worry about with an extra 3U available. Having that extra space would allow you to add more envelopes, more timbre effects, more in-depth logic and clock functions, and even some "bonus" modules like the Zorlon Cannon random gate/pitched noise generator to spice up your percussive patches, or a sampler like the Tyme Sefari or AS-290 to create loops within your modular that you could layer upon for more complex patches.

I know we've brought the 9U idea up before but I don't really understand your objection, as you only said that you think you can make 6U work. Is there something that is keeping you from considering a 9U system?
anselmi
NV wrote:
I see the relationship between the diagram you provided and your plans with your modular. To clarify some of my earlier comments, my issue with the number of VCAs you have isn't with the VCAs themselves (which can double as mixers, attenuators, or even filters); it's with the limited amount of control you have over them.
There are many users out there who have only a couple envelopes and many VCAs, but the work they do tends to be more monosynth/drone oriented, which is a setup that can work very adequately with a limited number of envelopes. However, if you're hoping to achieve the rhythmic ideas you mentioned in some of your previous posts, I think you'll want more envelopes. You can use gates for that purpose, but I'm not sure if that approach would provide the response you're looking for. For example, in the diagram you provided I see 8 channels of audio and 8 envelopes to go along with them. In your current modular plans you have 9 potential modulated channels of audio but only 3 envelopes, one of which is hardwired within the VM-1 and can't be patched out to an external source.

A quick and simple way to add more envelopes would be to add a Doepfer A-143-1 or A-143-2. For your purposes you'd likely prefer the A-143-1, as of the 8 envelopes in your Logikstation patch, 6 of them are AD envelopes and one is an AHD. The A-143-1 is also capable of outputting variable gates through the comparators, as well as being capable of firing the envelopes sequentially without outside patching. The envelopes can also be switched to function as extra basic LFOs. However, both the A-143-1 and A-143-2 are rather large modules, which brings us back to the 9U idea.

I think your intended goals for your modular (aside from a basic monosynth) would be far better realized in a 9U system than 6U. You could very well get there in 6U, but I think you might end up making a number of concessions and sacrifices that you wouldn't need to worry about with an extra 3U available. Having that extra space would allow you to add more envelopes, more timbre effects, more in-depth logic and clock functions, and even some "bonus" modules like the Zorlon Cannon random gate/pitched noise generator to spice up your percussive patches, or a sampler like the Tyme Sefari or AS-290 to create loops within your modular that you could layer upon for more complex patches.

I know we've brought the 9U idea up before but I don't really understand your objection, as you only said that you think you can make 6U work. Is there something that is keeping you from considering a 9U system?


thanks a lot for your advice...I was checking the modules you said and the A143-1 is something I really like!

I have to say that this patch is just an example, an extreme one based on the possibilities of the micromodular

I insist in the different workflow because when you got a blank patch in the micro is like hitting the modular store with cash (DSP) to burn in modules...so fot a patch maybe you spend most of it in EGs and VCAs...but when you start a new one is the same process...you got nothing and come to the store with the same money to choose in the modules you like

So there`s less limitations than when a pre-designed system where you have to work more in the inside of it

I feel them like very differet approaches

I don`t try to recreate that patch...it uses loads of modules, but maybe a max of 3 or 4 sources could be great...also I don`t want all my sounds always in the vactrol side but I like them enough to justify a QMMG...it also works as filters and mixer so I can use them in other ways

this leads to another VCA and mixer, and the VCA4MX is perfect for me because I got lot of utilities into a small module and it sounds great too

about the modulators you´re right, I´d like more of them but I´m very interested in use external things to do that...anyway your idea of the A-143-1 sound great!

I also want this system to be a mighty monosynth and a dronning machine, so my choises are for the most versatile 6u unit I could assembly

Why just 6u? well, of course I´d like a 9u one but I´m in the other side of the planet...far from all modular stores...so for me the quality of some modules have to be the best I could buy...my budget is low for the modular world so I have to think a lot about the design...also (and extremely important) the custom house here is like the gestapo...really...so a smaller system got much more chances to pass it without problems...

as you see this is like a puzzle for me...I´m trying to figure out the best solution for my situation...this is why I enter this forum and this was really helpfull...my system mutates to another thing because of you and I start to understand lot of issues about real modulars that really matter
anselmi
LDT wrote:
I will just say something really boring: I don´t see any attenuation, but I see lots of unattenuated inputs and outputs.



you´re 100% right...I was patching some stuff into my micromodular and realize how much attenuators are key for my work

I think that maybe a dual (top and bottom) stripe of multiples and attenuators could be handy without sacrifying module space
anselmi
After all your oppinions I decide to calm down, stay reading the forum and hear some more demos of modules...really useful time, I learn a lot from threads of diverse nature

So now I come with a new 6u system that I think matches my expectations
MIDI would be a kenton pro solo, attenuators and multiples built in a sepparate rack space

I got 2 possible configurations with the only difference of borg+M10 instead of the QMMG (hides)


version A




version B




what do you think?
dougcl
Okay man, I modified my planned 6U for you. It's really hard working with 6U. I would keep it at 2VCOs max, rely on the QMMG for filtering and VCA, keep it a two M10 EGs, and then see what else you can cram in there. Here is the reasoning behind my selections:
The A-143-3 ring mod and A-117 give you two additional sound sources in your system. So you can squeak three (or maybe four) simultaneous voices out of this system. You can use the M10's to control two of the voices going through the QMMG, and you can use either the A-143-3 or PH-4 to the A-165 to the A-170 to generate one or two more EGs. The A-143-3 also provides more LFO duties for all of the available cv inputs going on.

The comparator and slew in general have opposite roles. The comparator extracts logic from a smooth cv signal, and the slew provides a smooth cv signal based on gates and triggers. This back and forth is the source of a lot of interesting things. Given a great drone, you can get rhythm. Given a great rhythm, you can derive pitch (that's in time).

So the logic module and the A-165 are included to support a lot of interesting event combinations. The PH-4 and ASR were both selected because they offer a lot of cv in small packages. The ASR is like a super S&H, and the attenuated outputs on the PH-4 make it a great controller with related yet not identical cv. It also tracks 1v/oct so you can use it as an FM or additional sound source. The M14 is included so you can establish interesting and playable sequences from the A-160/1. It's about the densest cv processing module on the market. I omitted the A-156 in favor of other things because it is a bit of a luxury in a system this small. You can pick the pitches by hand using the M14. so I think this system has it all, but it may not be very sexy.

doug
dkcg
dougcl wrote:



Sexy, but no PLL? hihi

3 ringmods? You should be able to use the ringmod in the VCO-2RM independantly of the oscillators. That's my only comment on this setup. If the Doepfer ringmod goes away, and the A-117 goes away, a great replacement could be the Zorlon Cannon (1HP to space if I'm not mistaken). You get 4 digital noises then plus 4 random gates and a master clock. S&H that bitch through the ASR (which is quickly becoming one of my favorite modules) and still get your hihat sounds.
anselmi
eek! eek! eek! eek! eek! eek! eek! eek!

WOW!

thanks a lot for your work dougcl!!!

I know you´re the slew gurú of this forum...by reading your other posts I realize how interesting could this module be rythmically speaking!

I´ll analize your scheme and comments because there´s a lot of knowledge and experience there and I see you got my idea of a rythmic system with simple multi-sound sources

On other hand is really hard for me to see the AFG and the MMF-1 go away:waah:

I don´t said that I was thinking about using some kind of external main sequencing...to be honest I was thinking about using the nord modular and machinedrum outputs as gate/trigger sources so the majority of the logic processing could be done from the sequencers I already implented and let the final routing be reoriented with the A-160/1 and the logic module

that way I can keep the AFG and the MMF-1...I really love what I was listened from those modules

Anyway I was strongly considere a further upgrade to a 9u scheme that include more clock/trigger/gate/CV mangling options and your comments put a lot of light in my choose of further modules!

I can see much more clear that the limits of audio, modulation and logic signals get blured in the real modular world...your comments about how to use the PH-4 or the way you can extract an AR-like voltage fron the slew limiter are stunning example of this! applause

The ASR seems to be incredible and I also love the A-156 that you doesn´t include...I got something implemented near it in the nord modular...I call it "the harmony processor" and by use a lot of routing you can get really musically-complex sequences

Now I can´t afford a 9u system, and as I said before I really want some modules in the scheme I posted but your advices really makes me think different about others, so changes are comming!

Thanks a lot again!
anselmi
dkcg wrote:

Sexy, but no PLL? hihi

3 ringmods? You should be able to use the ringmod in the VCO-2RM independantly of the oscillators. That's my only comment on this setup. If the Doepfer ringmod goes away, and the A-117 goes away, a great replacement could be the Zorlon Cannon (1HP to space if I'm not mistaken). You get 4 digital noises then plus 4 random gates and a master clock. S&H that bitch through the ASR (which is quickly becoming one of my favorite modules) and still get your hihat sounds.


OMG! my head is about to explode! Dead Banana
dougcl
dkcg wrote:

Sexy, but no PLL? hihi

3 ringmods? You should be able to use the ringmod in the VCO-2RM independantly of the oscillators. That's my only comment on this setup. If the Doepfer ringmod goes away, and the A-117 goes away, a great replacement could be the Zorlon Cannon (1HP to space if I'm not mistaken). You get 4 digital noises then plus 4 random gates and a master clock. S&H that bitch through the ASR (which is quickly becoming one of my favorite modules) and still get your hihat sounds.


Yeah I had to drop the PLL to make room for more basic things. Here's the deal with the ring mods. The two lower outputs of the A-117 when ring modded with a pair of outputs on the A-143 and then run through the QMMG modulated by the M10's is a really wonderful thing. That leaves two more LFO's on the A-143-3 for clocking. If you take one for example and run it though the A-160 then take a sub divided clock out to the A-165 then through the A-170 have another envelope which you can drive the rate on the PH-4 to create a bass kick (I haven't tried this though!). So you have three percussion parts right there and you havent touched the VCOs and M14 yet (you have used one M10 though). So you have a voice with the VCO-2RM going through a sequencer with the M14. That's a lot of crap going on on one small system. On top of that you have the A-117 dig noise out, which when turned all the way CCW generates random sequences with the ASR just like white noise (no A-118 needed).

So another use for the three ring mods is to ring mod three or more voices together. This ends up being a great way to get timbres. The A-117 and A-143-3 again provide the basis for additional audio for this purpose. Also, the PH-4 being a VCLFO can be ring modded with the A-117 to make nice pitched sounds. Again running this stuff through the QMMG makes a lot of great things. With all of this going on there is still likely to be one or two LFO's left over on the A-143-3 and that is really nice to plug into the PWM on the VCO, or to pick the depth of modulation on the QMMG, or use in AND logic on the A-166. Not having a Zorlon cannon, I am out on a limb here, but my guess is there is a lot more you can do with this than a Zorlon Cannon can offer.

And also you can use ring mods as VCAs in a pinch.
anselmi
I´m starting to considere a friend´s wife advice of sell it all and get a school-bus instead of a modular...life will be much more simple that way huh?
dougcl
Okay dk, looking again there, the entire lower right from the ring mod over can be swapped out for something else. Wogglebug, possibly? This could be left as a fun area. I let my enthusiasm for the A-117 get the best of me. I swear there have been a couple of evenings lately in which I nearly wrote Dieter an email praising it. It may be my favorite Doepfer module and I can't believe I'm saying that!
tIB
some great advice hear and very interesting reading for me too since Im aiming for a similar elements in my system... time to read up on slew limiters and the ASR.

thanks guys thumbs up
Esnan
dougcl wrote:
I let my enthusiasm for the A-117 get the best of me. I swear there have been a couple of evenings lately in which I nearly wrote Dieter an email praising it. It may be my favorite Doepfer module and I can't believe I'm saying that!


Hi, I've been interested in the A-117 for some time, but I still don't really understand exactly how its 2/6-osc sound differs from say a white or coloured noise source.

Would it be possible to post any examples of the ring mod patches you describe in your previous posts?

Would be much appreciated!
wetterberg
I really didn't like the a-117 until I modded the frequency range on it. Now the random noise goes down to like 0.3hz which is great for that popcorn random thing, hehe.

I still don't like the bottom 2/6 oscillator thing, although I have tuned the spread of them to a quite pleasing little chord. It's just too static for me.
dougcl
wetterberg wrote:

I still don't like the bottom 2/6 oscillator thing, although I have tuned the spread of them to a quite pleasing little chord. It's just too static for me.


Not sure what you've got now you've modified them, but out of the box they provide wonderful ingredients for ring modding. Seems to me the manual doesn't suggest it for some reason. Oh and by the way I did try out the PH-4 as a bass kick and it works great.
dougcl
Esnan wrote:

Would it be possible to post any examples of the ring mod patches you describe in your previous posts?

Would be much appreciated!


Here you go:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=128949
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=129020
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9279
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9218
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