NO INPUT Strategy

Discussing gear, production, and ideas for making noise music. Enough JMJ, let's rock like Merzbow!

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ripit
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NO INPUT Strategy

Post by ripit » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:17 pm

Ok,

So who here is actually using that technique (self injected mixing board)

What model do you use or prefere ?

I know manies are using the Mackie 1604 (Derek Holzer, Jean Phillipe Gross...)

Personaly i use 2 Pioneer DJM 600 that deliver Hi Playability + Internal effects (maybe that's treachery ?).

I was wondering if any are using digital mixers such as an O1V or else to get more digital distortion/tones (+ snapshots !)

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Post by Feinstrom » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:07 am

I must confess that I've never heard of that technique; could you please elaborate a bit further (I'll google that ASAP anyway...)?

I made a recording in 1998 using only two delay units (Echolette tape delay and Monacor BBD echo) as instruments (with nothing connected to their inputs), processed by digital delay and reverb, and "tamed" by ART Pro Gate.
Might have been something similar.

Cheers,
Bert

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James
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Post by James » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:21 am

I used to use cheap Behringers for no-input when I was doing more noise-oriented stuff. The "Eurorack" series, actually, heh. Honestly, when you're this far out in the experimental zone, I think looking for "the best no-input mixer" is kind of a fool's errand. Use what you have on hand and abuse its capabilities - I'm sure it will be more interesting than trying to emulate someone else's setup.

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Post by krz » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:03 am

Littlescale has a half dozen or so related on u2b acct. Different mixers and pedals, etc eg:


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ringstone
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Post by ringstone » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:35 am

I actually use my Euro setup for no-input stuff these days. I've used a matrix mixer a lot, but lately have been trying a lot of other combinations of modules. Basically anything where you can split the output and route it back into the input will do... the Serge Resonant EQ module that was offered as a DIY option recently seems to be pretty popular for doing this BTW, I was showing a couple of people what it could do while I was up in Sydney recently.

If you check the soundcloud in the bottom link of my sig, the last 3 tracks (those at the top of the list, that is) are examples of what can be done with no-input on a Clarke Panel MSU (Serge VCF, Steiner VCF, waveshapers).

Cheers
Blair

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tarissuoc
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Post by tarissuoc » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:29 am

i've been using this technique quite a lot for the last 12 years or so.
started with a small Tascam 4 track cassette recorder.

what i really enjoyed was to plug an instrument in an input while generating feedback and mix them together. you get to change the pitch of the feedback which after few seconds comes back to its original pitch, as the sound of the instrument fades away.
also used to send recordings played by the tape player through the feedback, interesting results...
and modular feedback, wonderful of course!
Personaly i use 2 Pioneer DJM 600 that deliver Hi Playability + Internal effects (maybe that's treachery ?).
i'd rather call it extended technique. :guinness:
feedback has been used by many artists in lots of different ways (from David Tudor and Eliane Radigue to Toshimaru Nakamura). From my point of view, the no-input trend is only a part of the story.
Use what you have on hand and abuse its capabilities - I'm sure it will be more interesting than trying to emulate someone else's setup.
Totally agree with that.

have fun!

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Post by Repeater » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:05 am

I've been leaving the Mackie and Behringer at home lately and just using my Matrix Mixers with a handful of pedals or racks. One thing I really enjoy doing is running CV through the Behringer and using it as a sort of CV Processor/Slew within feedback loops.

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Post by drumsofd00m » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:26 pm

Before I just google it, which I dislike for new stuff (becoming sort of an old fart, I guess), can you guys enlighten me on that philosophy or technique? Is it related to chaotic patches (where, say, two state variable filters in self-oscillation crossmodulate each other while your hands or some CVs play with the cutoff)?

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tarissuoc
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Post by tarissuoc » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:46 am

As Ripit explained, the no-input technique consists of reinjecting the output(s) of a mixing board into its input(s). Just feedback basically.

Then of course you have lots of possibilities to play with, adjusting the eqs, inserting effects, using CVs as sound/modulation sources and the contrary, even getting frequency modulations, etc...
In a way it is related to chaotic patches, as results are hardly predictable.

This technique was made "famous" mainly by Toshimaru Nakamura in the 90's, a japanese guitarist who decided he didn't need his guitar anymore. :bananaguitar: :banana:

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Post by alexdsteak » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:34 am

Funny, I have been doing such stuff as well back in the 90s..

My process was to connect the direct output of a channel to the line input of
another channel on the Behringer MX8000 and play with gain and eq to
boost the signal..

Then I would add effects and various processing either through inserts
or as classic aux sends and returns, either on some channels of the MX
or to another line mixer I had at hand.

It was fun.... But nowadays I don't know if I would do it again.

A.

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Post by strettara » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:35 am

Every so often I come across something on this board that opens my eyes - just spent some time listening to and being amazed by Nakamura's work. Really lovely.
“It must be abstract. It must change. It must give pleasure."

New album: OZ

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ringstone
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Post by ringstone » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:01 am

Some more history:

David Lee Myers (Arcane Device) released Engines of Myth in 1988, which used feedback loops through delay units to achieve a controlled feedback music. He went on to further this refine this technique over numerous other releases.

The same year Nurse With Wound released Soliloquy for Lilith, on which Steven Stapleton had exclusively used feedback loops through numerous guitar pedals.

While I'm quite sure I had heard of this no-input technique before then (though this was around the time I started experimenting with this technique) I can't think of any specific examples before this time. I do seem to remember a friend patching the headphone output of his MS-20 back into an external signal input to create a feedback loop.

Any earlier examples? I'd be interested to hear about them! I'm fairly sure early modular synth users probably came up with this as a technique at some stage.

Cheers
Blair
Last edited by ringstone on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Repeater » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:47 pm

David Tudor was using matrix mixing to generate feedback in the mid 60s. I wouldn't be surprised if he got the idea from Gordon Mumma or David Behrman.

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Post by BHC303 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:58 pm

strettara wrote:Every so often I come across something on this board that opens my eyes
Dmmavar wrote:what do I need to get into drones
Pighood wrote:A bees nest and a small container of corn syrup.

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BHC303
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Post by BHC303 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:58 pm

strettara wrote:Every so often I come across something on this board that opens my eyes
+ 1 and quite often!
Dmmavar wrote:what do I need to get into drones
Pighood wrote:A bees nest and a small container of corn syrup.

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Post by wavehead » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:25 pm

Repeater wrote:I've been leaving the Mackie and Behringer at home lately and just using my Matrix Mixers with a handful of pedals or racks. One thing I really enjoy doing is running CV through the Behringer and using it as a sort of CV Processor/Slew within feedback loops.
behringer mixers aren't AC coupled?? weird.

one thing i love about shitty behringers for feedback is the built-in effects... i ended up too late trying to grip this old no-name $20 mixer on craigslist the other day and it had MN-3005 delay in it with dedicated sends on each channel. the minute i saw that i just imagined how fun it would be for feedback... i have plenty of analog delays and mixers, but built in effects make a mixer feel more like an instrument for this type of stuff.

feedback mixing is definitely an instrument with unexpected learning curve and difficulty. it takes really fine control, focus and expression. with tons of effects you can sort of just "let it do it's thing," but it's strength is really in the huge amount of tactile control. you can tell right away if someone doesn't know what they are doing or isn't in total control of it.. that's why it's so difficult.

my dude john olson (wolf eyes, spykes, etc.) is the master of piece of shit behringher mixer feedback. seen him play so many gigs using "the other eurorack" with hardwired loops on the channels and he always manages to shred it in different ways.

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Post by Repeater » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:52 pm

wavehead wrote: behringer mixers aren't AC coupled?? weird.
I've been abusing mine for years so it's possible that it's damaged, but CVs get through somewhat slewed. The slew can be adjusted with the EQ controls.
wavehead wrote: my dude john olson (wolf eyes, spykes, etc.) is the master of piece of shit behringher mixer feedback. seen him play so many gigs using "the other eurorack" with hardwired loops on the channels and he always manages to shred it in different ways.
It's hilarious to watch people scratch their heads when he plays with just one cable plugged into his mixer. He explained his rig to me once after a Graveyards gig and I had no idea what he was talking about until years later. Whenever I play in Detroit my mixer misbehaves (dead channels, bizarre interference, etc.) only to immediately return to life upon leaving town which confirms either shoddy electricians or something strange in the water over there...

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Post by BHC303 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:20 am

I am going to give this a nudge this weekend :party:

I am a complete noob when it comes to this so I have a couple of questions.

I have a mackie 1202 vlz3 I plan to use for this, is it harmful to the mixer to use it in this manner?

And a couple of tips to get me started would be greatly appreciated :hyper:

Cheers
Dmmavar wrote:what do I need to get into drones
Pighood wrote:A bees nest and a small container of corn syrup.

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tarissuoc
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Post by tarissuoc » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:33 am

I have a mackie 1202 vlz3 I plan to use for this, is it harmful to the mixer to use it in this manner?
i've never had any problem using feedback on an analog mixing board, but people may say it can damage preamps among other things.

this is why i tend to use cheap mixers, then you're not afraid of trying!
also, you won't care so much about hum or background noises (which can appear on cheap gear) as your signals will surely be quite loud.
And a couple of tips to get me started would be greatly appreciated
again, imo you should try and see what you get.
still, things of interest would be using pans and aux out to be able to get more than one signal.
FX usually brings nice things in the feedback loop.
Finally, even if this topic is about no input strategy, you can still feed the board with external sounds...

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BHC303
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Post by BHC303 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:38 pm

Cheers mate :sb:
Dmmavar wrote:what do I need to get into drones
Pighood wrote:A bees nest and a small container of corn syrup.

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krz
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Post by krz » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:05 pm

BHC303- there are at least 6 other no-input mixing videos from littlescale on YouTube. I posted only one. He uses various mixers, too - to illustrate.
If you do a subject search on the same site for "no-input mixing" - and then some of the suggestion videos are also relevant.
Then you can move on to @return and send" with other pedals or send return mixing with pedals that allow it. For example: the EHX Super ego (with another pedal in line on the send/return) or the Devi-Ever Eye of God that uses a light dependent resistor in line (in the circuit) to control the send/return feedback.
The key with no-input mixing is (like was said by others here) in using a cheap mixer that you like the overload distortion sound on, and the routing, and possibly using the board's fx sends (and returns) first- then going with little tiny volume increments - at first. Alot of people in the early 90's liked the Mackie CR-1604 alot- just for that "oveloaded" sound -such as for drum n' bass.
Not sure if digital distortion on a didital board would be the sound you would go for? The key is the overload/feedback. You might find an FX setting on a digital board that works for you but again - you risk frying it.

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Post by Repeater » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:46 am

Repeater wrote:One thing I really enjoy doing is running CV through the Behringer and using it as a sort of CV Processor/Slew within feedback loops.
Just to follow up on this, check out my tumblr page for some Vine videos of this in action. My Slim Skeevy (random voltage generator) goes into a Behringer mixer, then out to the Frequency CV input of a Moog Ring Modulator. The carrier oscillator output goes to the Behringer mixer input.

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Post by strettara » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:10 am

I've been playing a bit with this method - using the blippoo box as an effect in a feedback loop with a looper and simple mixer - very interesting.
“It must be abstract. It must change. It must give pleasure."

New album: OZ

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Post by felixer » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:32 pm

i'm not using a mixer, but a graphic eq: an ancient vermona dual 10-band. unfortunatly the output is out-of-phase with the input, so i use two small ART tube-pre's to take care of that, but otherwise it's a nice compact setup. i'm always experimenting with different stuff in the loop: right now it's an alesis flanger and an ibanez phaser ... lots of fun :tu: :party:
don't need midi, don't need keys, just want knobs and cables (all together now ;-)

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Post by huron » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:27 pm

Has anyone tried feedback loops in their modular set ups with something like the Doepfer 138-m Matrix Mixer?

Just curious.

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