J.Haible's Living VCO for Eurorack

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logicgate
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J.Haible's Living VCO for Eurorack

Post by logicgate » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:24 pm

Here's another project I've been sketching. A friend of mine built the living vco and tested with 12v, he said the module works perfectly without any mods, cool! :sb:


I've got some friends interested in some kits, and this VCO will be included.


I'm not profiting here, I'm making this VCO for me and I'll offer to a group of friends only for the cost of production.


Of course, if there's more people interested I can give the files after everything is 100%

There's still some adjustments to be made, but I'm almost there.


I used board mounted pots and jacks for this one so, no wiring!! :hail:


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logicgate
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Post by logicgate » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:34 pm

I only forgot to mention that I need to make the correct footprint for the 9mm alphas, the ones in it right now are the wrong size.

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raisinbag
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Post by raisinbag » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:08 pm

Omg I'd love one as long as it is all kosher

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Post by sammy123 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:10 pm

Will there be a panel involved? If so I would be interested.

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steffensen
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Post by steffensen » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:11 pm

Yes Yes Yes!

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Post by thetwlo » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:19 pm

raisinbag wrote:Omg I'd love one as long as it is all kosher
:tu: same!

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Post by fluxmonkey » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:20 pm

Post subject: IMPORTANT: Copyright, Intellectual Property & Misuse

...To help assist, we ask that forum users do not knowingly share, sell or upload materials that use the intellectual property of others unless they know this material has been approved for use in this fashion.

Additionally, if you feel that your own material is being mis-used here at the forum, please get in touch with myself or one of the moderators and we will remove the offending material.
Since Jurgen is dead, I doubt you have his permission... but email from heaven is dodgy, so I doubt he'll lodge a complaint himself. His IP, and his boards, are currently tied up in courts... once that's cleared up (and it's been a long time already), the profits from his work will support his children. Creating work for sale now would compete with that, and deprive them of income. Unless you have their permission, I think this is in bad taste at best. Please reconsider.

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logicgate
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Post by logicgate » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:29 pm

fluxmonkey wrote:
Post subject: IMPORTANT: Copyright, Intellectual Property & Misuse

...To help assist, we ask that forum users do not knowingly share, sell or upload materials that use the intellectual property of others unless they know this material has been approved for use in this fashion.

Additionally, if you feel that your own material is being mis-used here at the forum, please get in touch with myself or one of the moderators and we will remove the offending material.
Since Jurgen is dead, I doubt you have his permission. His IP, and his boards, are currently tied up in courts... once that's cleared up (and it's been a long time already), the profits from his work will support his children. Creating work for sale now would compete with that, and deprive them of income. Unless you have their permission, I think this is in bad taste at best. Please reconsider.
I'm not creating work for sale, this is a personal project.

There's no profit involved. If I lay down a PCB by myself and have it manufactured, I'm forbidden to share it with my friends? Or any other people interested? I Can't see how I'm possibly stealing his children's money in this situation...

It's not like I'm selling it on ebay or something...

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Post by filterstein » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:55 pm

Difficult subject.
All the roland clone stuff, the buchla en serges.
If someone claims he has permission, who can verify?
Have you noticed that the envelopes of the crowbx are based on jurgens drawings?
As far as i know he had no problem with personal use.
And in europe we have fair use rights.

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Post by oldcrow » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:26 pm

Jurgen and I discussed this about 15 years ago. Generally, his take was if he offered schematics and construction tips on a public web site or mailing list, forum, etc. They were "open source hardware" and free to build for non-commercial purposes. He did not mind if PC boards were made to enable others to make his designs as long as it was in the spirit of DIY, that is, intended for hobbyists and musicians to explore some nifty hardware, not for a company to start selling finished products.

I do indeed have a little bit of JH design in the crOwBX, and I make no secret of it. His design core is an inverse-parallel 2-quadrant multiplier, inspired by Doug Curtis' CEM3310 and some suggestions by Joachim Verghese. The CEM3310, from which JH took his design goals, is at the core a 2-quadrant multiplier. The OBX voice cards used CEM3310s, so building a discrete equivalent circuit to act like a CEM3310 is invariably going to use the same approach. JH did his in mostly all transistors, and he had a hold function like Korg MS EGs. I used more traditional elements like a 555 and a 4052, but if you strip away all the front end stuff you are left with a very basic expo converter that just happens to have another expo pair tacked on. The ingenuity is in understanding one pair is reverse-biased while the other is active, which is why it works in the first place.

My point here is it is like putting a steering wheel on a car or a multi-touch screen on a smart phone: it is the functional path of choice in the design.

I also use Tom Wiltshire's PIC code for the noise generator, which again I make no secret of. Tom knows. :sb:

If logicgate is making boards for himself and a parcel of DIYers, JH would have approved. He wanted his stuff out there in just this sort of way. For himself, he tended to make one of something and move on, because to him design and verifying the design was the allure. It is why his legacy site is filled with all sorts of awesome stuff. :guinness:

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filterstein wrote:Difficult subject.
All the roland clone stuff, the buchla en serges.
If someone claims he has permission, who can verify?
Have you noticed that the envelopes of the crowbx are based on jurgens drawings?
As far as i know he had no problem with personal use.
And in europe we have fair use rights.

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Post by sduck » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:52 pm

Personally I don't have any issues with this. My only concern is that it's NOT the Living VCOs - only a small subset of the whole thing, and leaving out that little s at the end doesn't really clarify that this is something different. Personally I'd come up with a new name for it, so as not to confuse anyone down the line into thinking they're getting the real deal, when it's not. Does this make sense - ? Otherwise I think it's a fine project.

My actual Living VCOs board keeps on getting put off - I've been meaning to build the thing for ages.
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Post by Luka » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:10 pm

yeah i must agree

for me living vco is about having a bank of vcos with linear detune

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Post by oberkorn » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:51 am

oldcrow: well said, good to hear from someone who knew Jürgen

logicgate: if you do this, I'll be interested!
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Post by home_listening » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:21 am

Got to admit I'm still blown away by the angst people feel about cloning Haibles designs.

So we can clone entire synths by people who are still alive (TTSH - Alan Pearlman), too many subsets of the korg/yamaha/roland classics to count, etc etc but not the living VCO?

The situation is identical as I see it.

Jurgen was a valued member of forums and had a dedication to SDIY - making this PCB a fantstic tribute to his memory rather than a grave robbing abomination. It is worth mentioning that he himself had cloned a number of things (1176, entire korg PS3100 I think and the synthi to an extent. So if we aren't putting the man above his own principles, to my mind it is all fair game.

I do feel that I have to say that he was a masterful designer and was a valued member of the electro music forum, my feeling that it is ok to clone his stuff is in no way malicious.

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Post by drip.feed » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:22 am

sduck wrote:Personally I don't have any issues with this. My only concern is that it's NOT the Living VCOs - only a small subset of the whole thing, and leaving out that little s at the end doesn't really clarify that this is something different. Personally I'd come up with a new name for it, so as not to confuse anyone down the line into thinking they're getting the real deal, when it's not. Does this make sense - ? Otherwise I think it's a fine project.

My actual Living VCOs board keeps on getting put off - I've been meaning to build the thing for ages.
What's the difference? :despair:
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Post by negativspace » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:27 am

You'd have to build 3 of these to get the "Living VCO" because part of what makes it special is the individual oscillators interacting with one another while linearly detuned.

Build 3. :party:

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Post by Pfurmel » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:29 am

sduck wrote:
My actual Living VCOs board keeps on getting put off - I've been meaning to build the thing for ages.
I'll gladly build it for you, if I get to keep it at the end 8_)

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Post by spotta » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:31 am

negativspace wrote:You'd have to build 3 of these to get the "Living VCO" because part of what makes it special is the individual oscillators interacting with one another while linearly detuned.

Build 3. :party:
In that case I'm interested in 3 :tu:
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Post by mxmxmx » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:50 am

negativspace wrote:You'd have to build 3 of these to get the "Living VCO" because part of what makes it special is the individual oscillators interacting with one another while linearly detuned.
so i take it "linear detune" is labelled "fine" here?

since this is for euro, the thing that seems to be missing though is another op amp stage, or are you (logicgate) doing the "driver" board as well?

edit: well, i guess no, since there's no wiring...

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Post by drip.feed » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:53 am

negativspace wrote:You'd have to build 3 of these to get the "Living VCO" because part of what makes it special is the individual oscillators interacting with one another while linearly detuned.
Do you connect them all together?
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Post by 2thick4uni » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:08 am

Great, I built the Living VCO's in 5u format when Jurgen first released them then stupidly sold them shortly afterwards. :oops:

Would be nice to have them again, particularly in Eurorack format.

Jurgen Haible was a genius, lets celebrate his work :hail: :hail: :hail:



.

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Post by logicgate » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:47 am

Hello guys! Nice to see this thread going with no anger.


The project is not finished yet! I'll etch this board 1st and see how it goes so I can have them made without any errors.



As negativspace said, you have to build three of them, I decided to make them individually so you could build as many as you want.


If you check the schematics you can see that all three VCOs are the same.


Yes I just labeled the linear detune as "fine", It's not final I was just lazy to type LINEAR DETUNE


I left the amp/driver section out of the equation, a friend of mine said it's unecessary. If the level is good enough there's no point, we'll see!!!

Stay tuned

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Post by 2thick4uni » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:16 am

logicgate wrote:
I left the amp/driver section out of the equation, a friend of mine said it's unecessary. If the level is good enough there's no point, we'll see!!!
Hmmm, not sure. The output is +/-1.2v as opposed to the usual +/-5v Eurorack standard so its going to be a good bit quieter than other ocillators. It would be very easy to add the non inverting amp from the controller board to bring it up to correct levels.



.

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Post by mxmxmx » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:46 am

2thick4uni wrote:
logicgate wrote:
I left the amp/driver section out of the equation, a friend of mine said it's unecessary. If the level is good enough there's no point, we'll see!!!
Hmmm, not sure. The output is +/-1.2v as opposed to the usual +/-5v Eurorack standard so its going to be a good bit quieter than other ocillators. It would be very easy to add the non inverting amp from the controller board to bring it up to correct levels.



.
i agree .. there seems to be plenty of space left on the board and why not be on the safe side.

anyways, cool project. i'd be in, too.

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Post by Memory_Leak » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:15 am

interested in three please......maybe more ;)
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