[IN STOCK] L-1 VC ADSR, Mouser cart added, page 5.

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L-1
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[IN STOCK] L-1 VC ADSR, Mouser cart added, page 5.

Post by L-1 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:00 am

I'm very like this true analog concept and want to make an eurorack project based on it. Aaron Cram written on this schematic 'fair use granted'. Can't deeply understood this phrase. This use I want is 'fair' or not. No chance to find Aaron and ask him, his site and email don't work anymore.
So I need an advise from wigglers - can I use this circuit or no. I just don't want anybody says 'He took not their and earn money on it'.
I made some changes in circuit. Now it works well on simulation.
- expo mode worked not correct (maybe it's a reason why Papareil removed it in his project). I made it in a different way.
- made amplitude 5V (was 6V)
- made sustain range 0 ... +5V
- will tweak attack decay release to have ranges: attack 0.1ms - 10s, decay and release 1ms - 20s.


This is schematic I simulated. No trigger input, sustain gate out and LEDs yet. I marked red parts I added or changed.

By analogy with other expo multipliers I think these 2K I marked yellow must be tempco. Don't know how to check this, will heat up a prototype and see ..

Image



This is original schematic:

Image



Scope shots:

Image


Image



Panel I wan to make. 22HP. I hope to place everything on one board.

Image
Last edited by L-1 on Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:50 pm, edited 7 times in total.


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L-1
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Post by L-1 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:15 am

Fair use is permitted without permission of the copyright holder, as long as it promotes the "progress of science and useful arts".

I hope this will promote this progress :razz:

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woodster
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Post by woodster » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:16 am

That looks like a monster.
I'd love to get an ADSR with CV control over all the stages.

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Post by sneak-thief » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:22 am

Nobody seems to complain about Marc Bareille using this schematic for his boards:

http://m.bareille.free.fr/modular1/adsr/mb_cvadsr2.htm
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Post by roglok » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:25 am

the problem with the concept of fair use is that it's usually court that decides if copyright has been violated or not.

in any case, a schematic can not be copyrighted, only patented. so from a legal perspective you can just go ahead with the project.

but in any case it sounds like you are asking for moral/ethical absolution. i guess wigglers will only be able to give you their personal view on the matter. for true permission you'll have to ask the designer himself ...

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Post by L-1 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:26 am

for true permission you'll have to ask the designer himself ...

I would ask but how to find him...

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Post by ashleym » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:09 am

Here is another view, and many other interesting comments, from an actual commercial modular synth designer

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2013/ ... schreiber/

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Post by Piedwagtail » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:58 am

My research shows he helped his brother Dustin on the electronics for the Stepperature.

http://www.protoplant.com/Stepperature

so there is your lead.

I´m interested in licensing his portamentiometer design in a VCLFO with ramp/saw/tri/vcpwm with the option of VC lag. I have the board in from itead just last week to beta.

Robert

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Post by neil.johnson » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:50 am

roglok wrote:in any case, a schematic can not be copyrighted, only patented. so from a legal perspective you can just go ahead with the project.
As per Paul's interview, the schematic, and for that matter PCB layouts, are copyrightable - but easy to get round by redrawing, making some changes here and there. Just don't stick in a photocopier without the copyright owner's permission.

Patents are trickier. You can't just look at a schematic and say if any of the intellectual property embodied in that schematic is covered by one or more patents. You find out either by searching (and then either licensing or working your way around the patent), or not searching and waiting for a letter from the patent owner. The worst thing you can do is do a search, find a neat idea in an active patent, then use it without permission --- triple damages!!!!

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Post by neil.johnson » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:56 am

Anyway, the core of that circuit has seen many versions, from Serge to Haible. Use his circuit as inspiration, and make your own flavour. Blinks lights are good :bacon:

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Post by bennelong.bicyclist » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:50 pm

That would be an awesome module to add to the L-1 line! I would definitely buy several kits for it next year if it goes ahead.

Given that you are operating your business in Belarus, it is the local copyright law that matters, not US or any other copyright law. The relevant law appears to be this one: http://agile-ip-group.com/see-all-news/ ... ed-rightsq

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Post by CJ Miller » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:31 pm

Very cool. I was wondering whatever happened to Aaron Cram. He posted a few interesting circuits like ten years ago and then basically disappeared from the scene.

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Post by J3RK » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:14 pm

I borrowed parts of his LM13700 ring modulator for my own. With a few changes (minor ones.) I'm not selling it commercially though. (I've made maybe 5-10 of them.) It's also taken mostly from the 2 quadrant multiplier (amplitude modulator) from the LM13700 datasheet, so I think that makes this one a bit more fair to use. However, I do credit him as L-1 is here. I did a quick search to ask permission, but didn't find much. However, it looks like Piedwagtail has found a lead to work from. I'd love to get in contact with Aaron just to make my RM official. It's really the only design that isn't my own that I haven't managed to contact the original designer for.

Anyway, this one's probably ok, but permission is always better. That's just my thoughts on it.

Beautiful rework L-1! Two of these and your Quad VCA/Mix would be a lot of fun for a complex patch.

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Post by Dave Kendall » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:03 am

Hi.

FWIW, many years back I had some email correspondence with Aaron about the Portamentiometer. In a nutshell, he said that you should expect a ±7.5V triangle swing in LFO mode with ±15V supplies, and that the expo converter for CV of Rate can be a bit touchy to get working. IIRC, as it was a ±12V design, some component tweaking in the expo converter might be needed to get it to to run well on ±15V.

A couple of years later, someone who knew him was in contact via electro-music.com, and said that Aaron was now far from SDIY, had moved on, and was not really contactable any more. As far as I know that's still the case. Aaron was a nice chap, knowledgable and helpful.

cheers,
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Post by L-1 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:35 am

I've followed the link Piedwagtail posted and found contact form. I written Aaron about his opinion about 'fair use' and permission. Hope hi will answer..

I forget about LEVEL CV, it's needed for velocity patching. So without those funny ADSR picture now.



Image

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Post by wavehead » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:10 am

great panel!
what's the envelope response sound like?
been trying to figure out how to make a Pro-One ADSR w/CEM3310 and all because i have never heard a single envelope come close to it (which seems crazy but if you've used a pro1 you know it's pretty much true).

i would love to have attenuators for CV inputs normalled for feedback slope control, even if just for attack/decay. not an easy thing to do with a dual ADSR in this size i know... i just find i adjust curve every time i use an envelope that has attenuators on board (especially when exponential setting is "too" exponential).

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Post by L-1 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:50 am

Don't know how it will sounds, I'm only on software simulation stage. But hope will sounds great. Now can only show how it looks. :lol:

No place for CV attenuators, sorry. I must use DIP chips and trough-hole parts, except of resistors and ceramic caps which I use big 1206 too. It's to allow the project be DIY.

You can use AT-AT-AT device from Thonk to attenuate.

I spent much time tweaking ranges but now they are as I wanted.

Image


This is the shortest envelope from the device:

Image
Last edited by L-1 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by neil.johnson » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:59 am

Thank you thank you thank you for using lower-case 's'. It really annoys me when I see people use uppercase -'S' for seconds, especially on front panels. For those that don't know, uppercase-'S' is the international symbol for Siemens, the unit of conductance (1/resistance). Heck, even SSL can't get it right:

http://www.solidstatelogic.com/music/xl ... ompressor/

:bang: :bang: :doh: :zombie: :zombie:

Why is the ATTACK setting scaled in kilo-Ohms (or milli-Siemens "mS")?

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Post by L-1 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:18 am

:lol: Simens.

I've weared in my childhood leader Luftwaffe helm 'Simens' which my grandfather brought from the war. Looks like this http://forum.violity.com/viewtopic.php? ... 414164bf33

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Post by Kickflip » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:50 am

Coincidentally, I made an Envylope on stripboard last week, but with a mod to trigger it from 0-5v instead. Needs a bit of tweaking, but it's a nice module so far. There's quite a bit of difference between the linear and the exponential times, but it can go pretty nippy. It's the first ADSR in my system though so not got much to compare it to without getting a Roland out :hihi:

At the moment I'm trying to work out why it outputs 0.15v when idling, but can still go to 0v if it has an active gate signal and the sustain is set to zero. :hmm:

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Post by L-1 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:10 am

Aaron answered!
I'm very glad, and start to spend money on this my new project.:lol:

Thank you very much, Aaron!

This from his letter:
Hi Alex,
Aaron here. Yes, you are welcome to use my circuit design in the way you described. Thanks for seeking me out and asking!
If you publish your design that is based on mine, I just ask that you not charge for the schematic itself (ie give away the information for free) and give me credit by saying something like "based on a design by Aaron Cram" or something like that. I welcome "commercial use" of my designs.



:bananaguitar: :bacon: :sadbanana: :nana: :banana:


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Post by L-1 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:23 am

I've already figured how everything will be located. It easy fit one board.

I want THAT340 arrays in the cores, but regular 2N3904 and 06 will fit these footprints too.


Image

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Post by mOBiTh » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:13 am

As usual I can see this is going to be super desirable! 8_) :deadbanana:


Panel-wise though I think having the upper controls arranged as:

A D S R
A D S R

instead of:

A D A D
S R S R

is much more intuitive

Call me old fashioned..... :hihi:

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Post by woodster » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:37 am

Fantastic news that you located Aaron, and he was so cool about using his circuit.
Both of you deserve a big :yay: for the dignity and class on display.

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