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Why positive only CV inputs on mk2:s?????
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> The Harvestman Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next [all]
Author Why positive only CV inputs on mk2:s?????
rydan
Have a HD mk2 and a PH mk2. And, well, apart from the fist semitone tracking issue they are pretty much great at what they do. HOWEVER why why why are all CV inputs limited to positive only voltage? I'm guessing cost reduction, but this is a seriously bad design decision i m h o. Signals in euro are, for the most part bipolar, meaning that LFO:s for instance won't sweep a function correctly without adding an offset before going into the CV input for every single CV.

For instance, if I would want to sweep a wavetable smoothly on the PH using the HD as LFO, I can't, since the wavetable will just sit still at, say 7 (or whatever the slider is set at) half of the time when the signal is in the negative range. This ignoring everything below (close to but not quite) zero is also likely what has created the first semitone tracking problem in the first case.

All in all, great modules, but having to add a massive number of offsets isn't really optimal...
Gripp
Wait, what?

Don't they respond like PHmkI, where offset is provided by where you set the table with the master knob and then you can modulate up AND down (with pos and neg V) from there with an amount determined by the CV in attenuator? The difference being that there are now attenuverters so you can subtract incoming CV from master too.

Just took a sanity check and remebered that I actually have a TSmkII in the rack d'oh!

Both my PHmkI and TSmkII behaves as expected and respond to both positive and negative voltages, used a uLFO. Offset provided by master knob and modulation amount by attenuator or attenuverter. seriously, i just don't get it
Funky40
Gripp wrote:
Wait, what?

my tought too

indeed, manual/frontpanel says 0-5V on CV inputs
seriously, i just don't get it wow seriously, i just don't get it

just wanted to order a ph2 NOW.
not exactly shure anymore.
....means to add a invy or CVP or two to it.
i mean, does we have now to add at each corner modules to the modules that these can work as expected ?
then he could have left of the attenuators too, make it smaller and cheaper.
0-5 V isn´t speaking of much modular understanding either, doesn´t it ?
= needs not only offset, needs also attenuation me thinks............bevore the on board attenuator hmmm..... seriously, i just don't get it
ok, its build to be used with a PEG lol
Gripp
Well, I wouldn't read the 0-5V as being positive only. It doesn't say that and the sampling frequency CV in on the TSmkII is labeled like that but works 100% as expected with both positive AND negative voltages. It is more a full range label.

Say you want to modulate the full range of sample frequency, set the main knob to halfway, apply a bipolar LFO and turn the attenuverter up until you hear the full sweep, which would be corresponding to +- 2.5V. Another way of looking at it is if you have the main knob halfway up and apply a +-2.5V bipolar LFO, then you need to turn the attenuverter full up to get full modulation. Or turn it full down if you want to flip the phase of the bipolar modulating signal.

I have checked my TSmkII and all is good with that module and with my old PHmkI too.
governor blacksnake
Yeah, the "0-5V" inputs respond to positive voltages only. This is a conscious and deliberate design decision that might make some more sense after some other Harvestman designs are released.

To condition a bipolar signal to this range, use an external module such as the top half of an English Tear.
Funky40
governor blacksnake wrote:
........ use an external module such as the top half of an English Tear.

lol
its another 160$ and another 7 or so HP......

Quote:
This is a conscious and deliberate design decision that might make some more sense after some other Harvestman designs are released.

regardless what modules you release.
modulations work allways after same logic.

allowing for +- V modulation allows to modulate --->around<--- a certain setting, set by the knob.
= mute the modulation, keep the setting/sweetspot
+ only modulation allows only modulation to the once found/set sweetspot to one direction.

if you would want to modulate "around" that point, the sweet spot, you would have to change your setting,
respectivly add a INVY to every second CV input. .........again: adds $ and hp
+- V modulation just makes a difference. fact ! ..........also especially on wavetable VCOs !!
so not really user respectivly pocket friendly......
edited to sound less offending.
rydan
governor blacksnake wrote:
Yeah, the "0-5V" inputs respond to positive voltages only. This is a conscious and deliberate design decision that might make some more sense after some other Harvestman designs are released.


Even though I'm a bit curious about those future designs that will require CV inputs to be positive only to work properly, I still feel this is a pretty bad choice. A modular system is, well, modular, and it's nice when the modules work well together. Pretty much all LFO type modulation sources are bipolar (including the HDmk2 and PHmk2 in LFO range). Also, have a hard time seing the problem with allowing bipolar. Having bipolar inputs that add to the manual control means that I can sweep the entire range using a bipolar signal, by placing the knob in the middle position. However, I can also sweep the entire range with a unipolar signal by placing the knob in the zero position and having double the amplitude of the CV signal. So, I kind of fail to see any application where having unipolar only is an advantage, so I'm eagerly awaiting a surprise then...
krunkleKick
So, just to confirm - the sliders don't add an offset to the voltage?

Gripp wrote:
Another way of looking at it is if you have the main knob halfway up and apply a +-2.5V bipolar LFO, then you need to turn the attenuverter full up to get full modulation. Or turn it full down if you want to flip the phase of the bipolar modulating signal.


So this technique wouldn't work with the MKII version of the Piston Honda? Even with the slider set in the middle it would still cut off below zero volts?

Is this the same on the Hertz Donut MKII 0-5V inputs? Even on the internal modulation bus?

Looking at the information available for the MKI versions I would have assumed that this functionality has stayed the same with the new versions.

I'm about to take delivery of both a MKII Piston and Hertz, I may have to re-think my rack plan a bit if this is the case.
rydan
krunkleKick wrote:
So, just to confirm - the sliders don't add an offset to the voltage?

Gripp wrote:
Another way of looking at it is if you have the main knob halfway up and apply a +-2.5V bipolar LFO, then you need to turn the attenuverter full up to get full modulation. Or turn it full down if you want to flip the phase of the bipolar modulating signal.


So this technique wouldn't work with the MKII version of the Piston Honda? Even with the slider set in the middle it would still cut off below zero volts?

Is this the same on the Hertz Donut MKII 0-5V inputs? Even on the internal modulation bus?


The CV input is added to the slider, so, yes the slider adds an offset to the CV. However, all negative CV:s are ignored, so, the example with +-2,5V wouldn't work, as you would just sweep from the slider position upwards with the positive half of the CV, and just sit still doing nothing at the slider position during the negative half.

This is the same on the HD mk2. Only inputs accepting bipolar signal is the FM inputs (of course), and the internal modulation bus (again, of course). However, the internal modulation bus seem to depend a bit on the function. FM is bipolar, the rest seem to scale up to positive modulation, but still using the whole waveform sweep, so, no dead spots when using internal bus. Pretty much what you would want it to do really.
rydan
krunkleKick wrote:

Looking at the information available for the MKI versions I would have assumed that this functionality has stayed the same with the new versions.


No, it's changed. The mk1:s respond to bipolar input on their CV inputs. (including 1V/oct inputs)
Hainbach
Can't say I like this. Wonder what strange new development the Governor is teasing, though. Modulation sequencer?
Gripp
I didn't think that fighting a cold would make my brain this mushy.

So, does this only apply to PHmkII and HDmkII and not the TSmkII?

I just did a third test using my TSmkII with sampling frequency as test parameter.
Sampling a C4 sine with main knob set half way with no modulation even connected then start playing back. Modulate with a PEG triangle set to bipolar, observed with O'tool and using the PEG level control until i had a bipolar +-2.5V sweep. When raising the sampling frequency attenuverter from zero (12 o clock) there just is a note going both below and above the original C4 and the note keeps getting lower even when the triangle has crossed 0V on its way down.

Is this just different between different mkII modules or is the fever really getting to me?

Edited for clarity...or so I hope.
rydan
If so, then yes it's different. Sending a negative CV into one of the CV inputs on the PH mk2 or HD mk2 does absolutely nothing, regardless of attenuverter position.
Gripp
PHmkII lust initially decreasing for me then. On the other hand, I already have a bunch of modules that really need offset and gain.
Wait and see what the Guv has up his sleeve then. And/or keep bugging 4ms to release their offset and level module (SISM).
JeshuaW
Just buy a small rectifier module. Every system needs one anyway.
Gripp
JeshuaW wrote:
Just buy a small rectifier module. Every system needs one anyway.


I generally agree but have found that it's really not that often I want half of the modulating signal chopped off. Offset and gain for me most often.
rydan
Guessing JeshuaW means a full wave rectifier, that inverts the negative half of the signal back up into the positive range. A half wave (clipping) rectifier wouldn't do much good here since one of those is already built into the CV inputs.
Gripp
You're right, full wave it is d'oh!
Still got a head full of mucus here...
But doing FW changes the waveform too. Absolutely fun but not always what is wanted.
rydan
Gripp wrote:
You're right, full wave it is d'oh!
Still got a head full of mucus here...
But doing FW changes the waveform too. Absolutely fun but not always what is wanted.


I'm with you. I also tend to use offset+scale in 99% of those cases.
reppiks
or go and get a bunch of PittsMod VCBends which warps any incoming bipolar signal into unipolar only, a much underrrated module!
infradead
vcBend is an amazing module and malekko 8nu8r is something that having recently boughten i have no idea how i have lived without it.

full wave rectification is sooooooo handy
nrdvrgr
So happy to have the Abstract Data Wave Boss module right now, takes care of all of these "problems" wink

EDIT; this also makes the Buchla/Harvestman work more "fluent".
patilon
i really like the ph1 and planned to update to ph2 as the new features look really promising. took me some time to get how absurd this new cv-input-"design" is. for my taste it´s nothing but a bug.
the module seems well equipped.. so it would just be a correction behind the front plate. so i really hope for an update. so far i´ll stay with my piston 1,
not bad either
rydan
nrdvrgr wrote:
EDIT; this also makes the Buchla/Harvestman work more "fluent".


Not really. Attenuverter in front of a regular bipolar input would work equally well with Buchla.
Mans


Offset and gain at the flick of a switch. Not only comes in handy with my VCA's now but also with the Malgo II.

I agree completely though that the MK1's have a much superior control system.
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