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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Is the Snazzy FX Wow & Flutter a BBD or digital?
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Author Is the Snazzy FX Wow & Flutter a BBD or digital?
magisterludi
Is the Wow & Flutter delay based on a BBD or is it all emulated digitally?

(Edited the title)
JohnLRice
I think wow can be emulated with BBDs but flutter might only be digital? hmmm..... I'm not sure. I know any of the devices I've had that do wow and/or flutter are all digital.

Edit: maybe flutter could be emulated with a simple analog VCA and a semi-random oscillator? hmmm.....
ThinLazy
My guess would be that there is a PT2399 in there,
in which case its digital
JohnLRice
Oh, sorry, is there a module or pedal called the "Wow & Flutter"? I thought you were just talking conceptually.
thetwlo
yes, BOTH pedal and module:
http://snazzyfx.com/wow.html
http://www.analoguehaven.com/snazzyfx/wowandfluttereurorack/

prolly, not a bad idea to include the maker's name in the subject. (although, it IS in the SNAZZY FX Forum) guess a lot of us just look at "new posts" and don't notice what forum it is.
parasitk
thetwlo wrote:
yes, BOTH pedal and module:
http://snazzyfx.com/wow.html
http://www.analoguehaven.com/snazzyfx/wowandfluttereurorack/

prolly, not a bad idea to include the maker's name in the subject.


Though, it is in the Snazzy FX subforum. w00t
ignatius
JohnLRice wrote:
Oh, sorry, is there a module or pedal called the "Wow & Flutter"? I thought you were just talking conceptually.


http://www.analoguehaven.com/snazzyfx/wowandfluttereurorack/

also a pedal

http://www.analoguehaven.com/snazzyfx/wowandflutter/

thumbs up

as for if it's analog or digital??? i have no idea.. i have one.. it sounds great.. sounds analog to me though.
thetwlo
parasitk wrote:


Though, it is in the Snazzy FX subforum. w00t


sorry, noticed that right after I posted! and edited before I saw your post, I assume JLR didn't notice that either.
I just just look at "posts since last vist" usually. So, easy to miss.
thetwlo
would love to hear more samples of this one, and also curious what chips are inside--always assumed MN(BBD) but are they PT?

based on features this should be the analog delay of choice in euro. So, curious why it's not more popular than it is, or is it?
magisterludi
I think I'm getting one regardless of the answer but I am still curious. Probably the lack of information means it is digital through and through as the presence BBDs is usually mentioned (as it is sort of a selling point for some).
magisterludi
I edited the OP so there would be no confusion about what I meant by Wow & Flutter.
thetwlo
cool, post a demo on tube! with 1000+ views you get 25% off your next module from them! cheap advertising. fulfillment may vary based on manufacturer.
ignatius
i posted this a long time ago.. it's not an amazing demo or anything just noodling..

the parameter ranges are nicely spec'd and can go pretty wide and you can get some outright garbled pitched things happening and all manner of slurred slop...

thetwlo
[quote="ignatius"]i posted this a long time ago.. [quote]

thanks! that really doesn't sound like a BBD? should be easy to look at the chips, on the module version at least.

sounds nothing like a BBD on a second listen. hmmm.....
ignatius
thetwlo wrote:
ignatius wrote:
i posted this a long time ago..


thanks! that really doesn't sound like a BBD? should be easy to look at the chips, on the module version at least.

sounds nothing like a BBD on a second listen. hmmm.....


it's supposed to sound like some kind of tape based device but i don't know if it does.. i just like what it does.. if you read the description in the product info it's all in there as far as what he's going for w/the design.
thetwlo
it's sounds great, but doesn't sound like a bbd.
ignatius
thetwlo wrote:
it's sounds great, but doesn't sound like a bbd.


yeah. i don't know why it would?
thetwlo
ignatius wrote:
thetwlo wrote:
it's sounds great, but doesn't sound like a bbd.


yeah. i don't know why it would?

well, so it's NOT A BBD? ok, the info seems vague. So it's digital. that's what we were after. thx.
thetwlo
ignatius wrote:

yeah. i don't know why it would?

if it was ANALOG that's about all it could sound like, as we know it's not tape, wire, or oil can. others?
ignatius
thetwlo wrote:
ignatius wrote:
thetwlo wrote:
it's sounds great, but doesn't sound like a bbd.


yeah. i don't know why it would?

well, so it's NOT A BBD? ok, the info seems vague. So it's digital. that's what we were after. thx.


lols.. i don't know either way... but i don't read "bbd" anywhere in it.. i don't know about building these things but is using BBDs the thing to do if going after all kinds of tape wobble type stuff?

anyway.. there's some info in this old thread if you pick through it..

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=67168&start=all&post days=0&postorder=asc

here's the bread board version of it

thetwlo
ignatius wrote:

lols.. i don't know either way... but i don't read "bbd" anywhere in it.. i don't know about building these things but is using BBDs the thing to do if going after all kinds of tape wobble type stuff?


names on the chips is all we were after. it's not going to say "BBD" on it.
anyone else?
sauce
I'm having too much fun with mine in this patch right now to pull out of the rack!
thetwlo
so it's the Princeton chip, yes, Dan?
ignatius
thetwlo wrote:
ignatius wrote:

lols.. i don't know either way... but i don't read "bbd" anywhere in it.. i don't know about building these things but is using BBDs the thing to do if going after all kinds of tape wobble type stuff?


names on the chips is all we were after. it's not going to say "BBD" on it.
anyone else?


i meant "read" as in read in the product description. i haven't looked at the back of the module.. it's involved.. in the rack currently.
ndkent
FYI wow is an analog tape term dealing with pitch speed discrepancies changing in the subsonic range. Pitch as in not steady fluctuation. I'm not talking about proper pitch shift which stays put. Flutter is the same idea but the change is at an audio rate. As for the module,it's clearly trying to evoke that but of course via CV and no tape.

BBD is clocked, not motor driven. Roland infamously called one of their 70s BBD units a "Digital Chorus" since presumably the stages aspect, though analog storage does chop the sound up at the clocked rate

Don't own a wow and flutter but have heard it. Definitely not BBD and would surely be played up it it was due to performance and cost. Still well worth checking out for modulated delays using cv
reignbear
just got one of these and it is indeed pt based SlayerBadger!
loss1234
OK...this is a bit of a new years eve rant....


WOW AND FLUTTER INFO/IDEAS ON THE SOUND///BBD VERSUS OLD CASETTE TAPE VERSUS CB RADIOS IN A BASEMENT


I just wanted to explain my ideas on the sound of this module.
(which was of course a new take on a previous machine, the wow and flutter stompbox. but this module is only the same in FUNCTION and a tiny bit of it is actually the SAME.

It is 75% a different circuit.

why?

well this was made for the modular synth world.
which means +/- 5v waveforms. it also had to be changed to deal with the huge amount of harmonics you get in a square or sawtooth waveform (as opposed to a clean guitar)

plus it had to be voiced differently.
and it had to work with not just CV but also external envelopes. and it outputs the envelopes too.

So with that out of the way, let me say a bit about my intent as far as the sound. and for those who have not heard it, this might help you understand it a bit more.

You will definitely understand a bit more about what SOUNDS or ERA of sound I was going for with the module.


let me just say that for this module (not including all the time I spent on the ORIGINAL stopmpbox version)
I spent months and months (actually over 12 months) trying to get the "voicing" of this eurorack effect JUST RIGHT. I went through 3 different giant breadboards, 4 seasons, and 2 or 3 completely different final designs before I finally settled on the final module and was happy with it. But I wasnt actually happy with it until the last final change was in place.

(btw/// i refer to this module as an effect instead of as a delay because its really more than just a straight up delay)

it required a lot of testing and frustration, as modular synths are quite a bit harder to work with then guitar as the frequency range is so wide, the variety of input material do massive, AND the expected signal levels require a large amount of care as delays usually expect small signals and euro-rack deals with large signals.


I did use a variety of effects/sounds as references (as inspirations or as warnings)
obviously the ORIGINAL wow and flutter stompbox was used, an echoplex, a few BBD devices, as many recordings of tape delays as I could find (and also my still quite fresh memories of working with tape delays) , a few EARLY (1982...etc) digital delays, consumer tape decks, dubbing decks, reel to reel decks, convolution impulses of tapes, and also audio samples of many, many, devices. As well as testing with a ton of euro modules.

In the end, I wasnt happy until I was happy.

And what the heck does that mean in the scope of this question?

Well I dont think the Wow and Flutter screams BBD.
But I also dont think it screams PT.
I think it achieves what I was after, namely an effect FULL of CHARACTER.
It screams Wow and Flutter


remember its a module you turn to for different purposes, (mellow delay, crazy timed pitch warbling, self-oscillating delay, envelope following, etc)

And as the module can FUNCTION IN DIFFERENT WAYS, (with or without Warp, with external envelope OR reading the input, CV controlled OR not, crazy feedback mode or normal, long decay or short, etc etc)
IT had to be designed not only to SOUND GOOD at HIGH FREQUENCIES AND low FREQUENCIES but also IN PITCH WARPING MODE AND REGULAR DELAY MODE.
I had to make sure it could take what you throw at it and not just shut down and say " Sorry, this module is not designed for that"

So, Imagine yourself at the bench, you think you have just gotten the delay to sound PERFECT! And then you switch your input from a mid frequency square wave from a Harvestman module to the LOW SINE output from a self-oscillating Borg module.

And suddenly EVERYTHING SOUNDS DIFFERENT!

Or maybe it would sound great when Warp was turned all the way DOWN but then when you engaged the "rubber" mode, and suddenly nothing worked the way it was supposed to. So i had to keep trying and trying.

And I also had to stay true to the IDEA or Concept of the Original Stompbox.

So there were all these crazy requirements, expectations, technical hurdles,
headaches, shorted our breadboards, spilled lemonade, last minute surprises, etc.

whew!


I never TRIED to make it sound like a BBD. Other than the original stompbox, it was never meant to be a "clone" or a copy of any ACTUAL machine. (thats not my style)

I was actually going more for the sound of messed up tape decks. tape getting destroyed. dirty tape heads, magnetized heads, reel to reels, old magnetic hiss. the world of murky sounds. old pre-amps with a reel to reel hooked up. Maybe deck B of a dual tape deck where DECK A plays a little too fast and DECK B plays with too much warble. Or the sound of a tape on the wrong speed. or with the levels messed up or the bias messed up.

Not ANALOG as the 45,000 dollar 2" tape machine would tell it. BUt Analog as
some guy living in a basement with a huge ton of yard sale radios and 8-trak players and hot-plates and theremins and CB-RADIOS might tell it.
Stripping off the varnish a bit.
Adding some BODY.

And I am not going to say it sounds exactly like any ONE THING.

I think it definitely helps soften things. It can saturate in a nice way. It can be real pretty OR real freaky. Its great on percussion. Its really nice as a BUS FX in Pro Tools or Logic (just send out from Logic into EXPERT SLEEPERS modules and the back into Logic....suddenly you can add a ton of Spacey, Gritty, Sci-FI textures...Its really nice on Vocals (see the TAPE OP REVIEW)

It is not a GLASSY SOUNDING EFFECT.

It doesnt make me think of CLEAN, Los Angeles DX7 Sound-tracks. More like the butthole surfers live recordings or Cluster on dusty Vinyl.


I mainly wanted three things when I re-designed the wow and flutter for euro:

1. For it to be pleasing to the ear (GOOD SOUND....easy to fit in a mix/no-harsh hi-end pulling your attention away from the MUSIC...not fatiguing...I wanted it sound Organic. and sorry if Organic is more related to food nowadays.)

2. For it to have its own sonic footprint. (its own "sound"/character/personality/etc )

and

3. For it to be very musical. VERY FUNCTIONAL TO THE ARTIST.
And what does that mean? I wanted its functionality/its modes/its tricks to help the musician explore more territory. but not just help somone make ONE crazy sound and move on, but to allow for growth, for symbiosis, for "Getting to know" the instrument.....for the musician to find that perfect sound or setting for their new song. Allow the user to transform sounds in both SUBTLE and CRAZY ways. (that warp knob is key to that). Allow the user to impart NEW aspects of a melody or rhythm into their piece by careful use of the controls. OR to create from thin air, NEW material to work with.

And I try to do this with my modules in general, though I know many people think they are weird, I really do think of them as gateways, as decks from which to explore, machines to help us do our bidding, but also machines which make us do THEIR BIDDING.

Anyway, Sound and FUNCTION.


So thats what I wanted to say in response to the is it BBD...IS IT MEMOREX

it sounds like the wow and flutter.
I have had people tell me that it is their favorite delay in euro.

Which makes me feel like all the effort was worth it. Nothing makes me happier than knowing that people are USING my gear for MUSIC!!

(these arent coffee table books! )

anyway, if you need any more info on HOW to use this module or WHAT you can use it for, (there are many uses besides straight up delay-just PM me)

thanks AND HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
ignatius
thanks for all the info Dan.. as an owner of the Euro wow and flutter i'll just say that all the time you spent getting it the way you want it really paid off. it's a really great sounding module and musical and inspiring and useful!

so, thanks.. and of course it's interesting and nice to know some details about specifics but honestly.. all i really need to know is that it sounds fucking great! thumbs up we're not worthy

there is nothing else that sounds like it or does what it does. in the world of delays.. especially modular delays.. it's unique as far as i know.

happy new year to you as well!
reignbear
ignatius wrote:
thanks for all the info Dan.. as an owner of the Euro wow and flutter i'll just say that all the time you spent getting it the way you want it really paid off. it's a really great sounding module and musical and inspiring and useful!

so, thanks.. and of course it's interesting and nice to know some details about specifics but honestly.. all i really need to know is that it sounds fucking great! thumbs up we're not worthy

there is nothing else that sounds like it or does what it does. in the world of delays.. especially modular delays.. it's unique as far as i know.

happy new year to you as well!


+1

finally got home from the holidays and got my new wow and flutter installed and it's amazing. have a simple bongo patch going with the wet output going to the env in creating some amazing rubbery delays.

seriously great module and lots of useful/insightful info from Dan in this thread.
SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger!

on the PT vs BBD thing, i think they are both great. some of my favorite delays are PT based, sound of shadows and bugbrand, i love the way the way the PT delays sound when pushed.
thorncore
Dan that is an epic post about a wickedly fun module...
one week in and I am very impressed,totally addictive.

totally unlike any delay I have used before in its functionality,the envelope follower output is the icing on the cake and gives me a great tool for controlling a whole other voice with the wow and flutter.

I have to say that Snazzy modules really do have their own personalities thumbs up
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